yes & better be a BIG elk..!!.~5000 ft-lbs would make a small cow go flying into the ravine below! haha A big moose or bison really might make sense. Or like you say, a big grizzly and still able to take them at some distance.

@@ShastaBean I just uploaded a test results video for Winchester Silvertip 22 LR vs CCI stinger. Meat and water jug combo test. Let me know what ya think. PS. If you keep making good 338 Lapua videos I will end up buying one.

Yes, I've come to believe velocity is far superior to penetration, for defense. These R&R loads have actually clocked above 2300 fps. I'm loading them myself ~2250 just to try to avoid any problems with primers. If you haven't seen what these do to pork shoulder... kzbin.info/www/bejne/boKVeZulfbWhabM

Buffman's done it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWTIhXukbrulsKc and the vampire: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4bHeXWMoMd_Y5I

yup...although the one from the expanded round was significantly larger - like 3/4" instead of 1/4" LOL...I just did a poor job of showing it well - from being consumed with the giant crater the 5.7 Raptor bullet made. Velocity rules

@@ShastaBean did the one that expanded expand because it hit bone?

@@triggerbarPhD no. It expanded pretty much right away and then when it hit the bone @ ~8" made it stop and put a flattened edge on the expando. It was the opposite of what I expected, and figured the bare-shot would expand, but the denim would perhaps clog the 2nd shot. Odd.

If it expanded with denim and meat I guess that’s a good thing. Thanks for doing a real test with this ammo. Meat and bone pretty much sums up real life scenario. I’ve been wanting to test this round for a bit from a Phoenix arms HP-22 with a 3” barrel. Your test shows me don’t bother as it only starts to work decent from 3.6” barrel and on. Penetration wasn’t too bad as an average but I will stick with full power center fire handgun rounds for defense. I’m doing some 8x57 tests in next few weeks. Testing will be done with Persian model 30 carbine.

@@ShastaBean that’s really odd. I suspect it must be right on the threshold.

yes, thanks for asking. It was a gusher, for a little while. Was too tired by that time to be operating a blade. At least I know it's pretty sharp. durp

@@ShastaBean glad you are getting better! Ouch.

@@triggerbarPhD thanks. Lesson learned - don't do this sort of thing when you are tired, and then rushing. I need to figure out a better way to not end up having to cut & review the pork while also still having to factor in time to cook...it after a long day. I need a ranch (home-range).

@@ShastaBean amen to the home range thing. That’s a dream home for me! Not sure I’m willing to do what it takes to make it a reality but I have thought of digging out my basement adding a test range in! But permits… yuck.

I agree these are NOT the bullet for large animal. I do think we'd see far different outcome in gel with the heavier & slower SST being in play. I see people claim success & failure with nearly every single type of round. Could even be factual, who knows? Placement and distance (terminal velocity) are likely in play. To me, these are indistinguishable from the VMAX at this velocity. I expect SST have a slightly higher threshold for holding together, though. I was told they have a slightly thicker jacket. But when I compare this to the 110 gr V, it's very similar looking, although the retained base is double the weight, so I guess there's that. I suppose if I had pulled all the fragments and placed & weighed into a histogram then a person might see some difference in dispersion. But even having to do that to prove there's a difference, sort of proves there isn't much of one at 3000 fps. Too time consuming. I'll eventually do it for my own info, though when I get around to it. For a big animal, like a moose I'd want the heaviest round I could get to expand at whatever my max distance (low vel) might be. Probably a bonded, maybe all copper. It's no doubt tricky business picking a projectile...hunting or defense. I see hunting and defense as very different things. A gaping shallow wound is something I think an animal could manage to run with for miles & miles. An attack threat, I believe should expect to receive at least 3 in succession and far less likely to involve passing through the shoulder - whereas hunting it's sort of more of a given? Hitting bone is something that I now think alters performance more than maybe anything else. This testing for me is for defense. If moose hunting involved the beast coming towards you on 2 legs, then maybe 8-12 penetration would do just fine. lol (@ that visual).

oh and just to clarify...I'm not saying one can expect or assume to be ABLE to put 3 rds into an attacker...only meant it in the sense that hunting doesn't typically involve planning to shoot round after round into an animal...other than that upright moose coming at you on 2 legs. He's going to get more than 1 attempt at him.

funny...was just talking about that to my dad about people near me at the range with their SBRs. Trying to explain what a suppressor does for home defender who's got a super-loud ar pistol. Can't imagine one in .308. yikes!! The AK & AR15 variety at the range already knock me around plenty. So you don't have a sup on yours and shoot subs?

@@ShastaBean I have not yet gotten a suppressor, but definitely thinking about one. 308 in a 12.5" barrel is loud, and the muzzle blast will make long hair fly. I mainly bought it for feral hog hunting, still trying to figure out thermal and night vision though. Night vision and thermal are definitely in the "buy once, cry once" category, but I may get dehydrated with these tears...

@@Disastrous.Affect I have started to consider thermal/NV...but getting my feet wet seems overwhelming, so I haven't really dug in. Hearing you say that isn't helping!! haha. Actually it does - to be careful and thorough, but dang it's not cheap and surely would be easy to skimp to $ave. Duly noted! What did you go with, if you don't mind me asking? And are you happy with what you've worked out, so far? And yes, the .308 definitely punches! These light for caliber are something I really like. I've become a worshipper at the alter of velocity. I wouldn't want to wield the .308 if woken from a slumber, but all daytime/alert hours it's what is closest thing to me apart from what is in the holster on the belt. 25 rounds of 1-shot stoppers seems hard to beat.

@ShastaBean I have not bitten on anything yet. Kinda thinking about the Holosun thermal when it comes out, but probably put that on the 10mm. Still looking for the 308... I did look at the Holosun Night Vision, it was tempting... But I want to start with thermal on the 10mm, then NV on the 308... But I am really still just looking at this point.... Oh yeah, absolutely no way I want to touch this thing off indoors, even suppressed.🤷‍♂️

I might be massively overestimating their effects, but these really seem like two shots of 5.7 x 28 wrapped into one.

@@ShastaBean wow that’s incredible.

and this was the 9mm....can only imagine the puree mess that the 10mm Civil Defense, or OW would make? I still include some heavy, slow penetrators scattered in the magazine...but for sure these are my "go-to" in the chamber. I wish some LE agency would give rounds like this a try. I can't imagine perps continuing to advance on them after receiving 5 or 6 of these, like we regularly see with JHP. The only case I can currently see being made against them, is the drop in velocity over some distance, like 50 yards...Police might be more likely to take long shots like that, but civil defenders perhaps, too - even if unlikely...if being shot at from down or across a street or from some mall storefront. I need to find what is their BC. I bet it's not great, like maybe .06 or something.

@@ShastaBean great thoughts and yah that’ll be fun so see in 10mm. As I recall the poi shift was within the accuracy of all your shooting anyways right or within an inch or two. Yes would be nice to see stopping power of this in real life scenarios it gosh that looks to be devastating. And yah, I’m not worried about 50 yard shots…

@@triggerbarPhD ​ It seemed plenty fine (for me) at 7 yards...especially given what I've seen with the 2" difference in POI from shooting Overwatch at left target vs. right target (need to follow up on that phenomenon!!). Critical Defense was about ~1/2 to .7" high and ~.2" left. Still, probably worth shooting a full magazine of mixed ammo all at the same target and see what I get. Rinse & repeat. Then see if any different at 15 yards, and maybe 25 yards. Assuming BC of .06, with 7 yd zero and .8" sight-over-bore, at 25 yards, this would hit .5" higher than 115 gr @ 1135 fps muzzle & 2 inches higher at 50 yards due to its velocity...if that somehow made any difference where I'd be hitting with a pistol at 50 yards??? Color me skeptical with I'm sure what would be like 2 or 3 foot groups regardless of ammo. haha. Besides L.E. I mentioned perhaps it matters...also, for people that use 9mm PCC for hogs are who might want to take into consideration POI or drop or loss of energy, if shooting at 100 yards or more. I sure wouldn't use it, or any 9mm at that distance. It'd have like just 140 ft# of energy at 100 yards...and 100 ft# at 150 yd. I see lots of comments of people describing what it does to hogs...devastating. They never say the distance, though. My 45 gr TSX with its BC of .188 from the Ruger LC would still be cooking with 264 ft# at 150 yd. Although it wouldn't open at 1724 fps...but the energy is there - and maybe if use another bullet like Hornady BEE in 45 gr or whatever would open up. Paul Harrel's video...@ 15 yards: w/Barretta it was ~2" lower with the Liberty CD, but with the M&Pc, it was effectively the same (at 10 yards). "not enough difference, to make a difference". TLDR...again, typing out-loud. heh

For me, it's not that precise and just testing and tracking results. I can't sit there all day to shoot a few rounds. I shoot a couple of groups, and then switch to a different rifle and rotate. My rifles are cheap factory budget models. It's not that important for me. I don't get it red-hot. I don't know a whole lot about competition precision shooting, but I do believe they have to shoot with a warm barrel because there's not enough time to let it cool. So they shoot fouling-shot(s) to ensure they don't have a very different 1st shot and then the rest grouped elsewhere. Hunters (at distance), on the other hand...need to know very well where their cold-bore shot is going to hit, and if needed a 2nd or more shot.

R&R looks to sell a loading with this bullet...not sure how reliable their ammo is these days, though. Light Primer Strikes for some, in recent year(s). I know they are aware, but haven't heard of what, if anything they've done about it.

Thanks! When I 1st tested these (and the 38 grain w/LC) in gel I was mad that they don't have a base that continues straight (like advertised)...then, after testing a bunch of others that do give that outcome, thought "well, if someone turns out to want a round that only detonates 5 - 9" (9-11" w/LC & 38 gr) then these are really the only choice out there"...turns out that someone is ME! haha. Did you shoot those 300 BOs into gel?

I've moved from the belief of penetration being necessary to now thinking that a 7 or 8" deep hole that's 3 or 4" wide would likely do the trick to stop a threat.

I laughed very out loud when I was reviewing footage and came to realize that a hunk of the meat went flying into low-earth-orbit. Definitely wouldn't want to receive one of these.

I was pretty disappointed when testing these in gel to learn there's no base that penetrates deep. But thought maybe they'd still be potent. Now I have a few of these in my carry magazine.

yeah, can hardly be considered handgun velocity. I wondered if the petals would make small, narrow slices...or if it would look like a grenade went off inside. Got my answer.

nice & thanks for the heads-up. I wish they'd sell that projectile as component. But 1800+ is getting close to being good, no doubt.

I might actually buy some, to pull apart and use in some actual real brass. Unless they changed it for the Cr. Duty? After Buffman's test, I'd never carry it until I know it won't leave the neck in my chamber.

I have a ton more info to upload, including work on the TSX. I did put one through the pistol into a shoulder, and it was 1946 fps and expanded, but just slightly. But it created a massive disruption. It pierced the primer, though...but since then I've changed the powder from Accurate #7 to #9 for the rifle, and was able to get well into the 2300s with the rifle w/o pressure excessive. I haven't gotten around to trying that load with the pistol, yet. But is on the list. I'd certainly carry a few in the pistol mag if I can do 1950 reliably. We'll see. Even if it doesn't expand, it will likely tumble and in gel, looked impressive. With pistol, I'm leaned to the fracturing, faster rounds that are above 2200 fps as primary in the magazine. My most recent upload you might want to see, is the 30 gr R&R with the Cutting Edge Raptor bullet. Their effects are devastating, and working right now on the Controlled Chaos 32 gr. into pork video. Those two are my primary defense choices for the 1st several shots out of a magazine. Hammer 33 gr is another. Vanguard 36 gr GPM also. Another is the 37 gr R&R REX, which is about like a TSX, but has 3 petals rather than 4. It's also very effective, but didn't penetrate nearly as far as the 45 TSX does but expansion & damage was significant. I'm ok with that, and I'll have those loaded sooner in the magazine than the TSX. You said you have only shot it through a pistol...what velocity? And presumably your own load?

@@ShastaBean Yeah. 1887 ft/s from my pistol. I think its 6.2gr HS-6.

@@ShastaBean have you tried more generic loads through pork shoulder? Your videos indicated you got good performance from Barnes 30gr Varmageddon and 40gr speer. Tried either in pork shoulder?

@@shooterreadyschannel9254 The 40 gr Speer didn't expand in the clear gel. I am guessing, though, it would in the pork. So I've considered it. The 30 gr Barnes & the 35 gr NTX are maybe something I'll try next. I didn't get incentive from it turning to powder in gel, but now wondering if that actually creates significant wounding and maximizes surface area. Very curious. But no, I haven't done generic rounds. I'm mostly only interested in my own loads or some R&R / Vanguard GPM. I have no intention of carrying the weak stuff like SS197. I did shoot a 9mm Liberty Overwatch into a shoulder. That was interesting. Will get a video up, eventually. Am overloaded.

I haven't shot them through the Rock. That thing is basically still brand new other than 21 rounds.

Savages just plain shoot, though. I'll be thrilled if this thing can come anywhere close to my two Savages. This was only 25 yards, and not all that steady on that table (single point of rest with the stock waving around on my shoulder). Although I did shoot last week @ 100 yards from the lead-sled...It's definitely hit or miss depending on the type & weight of the ammo. I don't think 55 gr is going to typically be the most accurate through this 1/8 twist, but still need to review footage & targets.

it's 2.7" height. so, the note on the summary at the end explains bringing it up 3.5 MOA. Should have raised it 4 (for these rounds, at least) but took it to the range and fired dozens of various types at 100 yards. These were low on the target, but some of the heavier rounds were pretty on. I'll have a video coming out (eventually) comparing the different types & weight. I haven't even really reviewed the groups yet. It was decent accuracy with some ammo, but others were 3-4 MOA from a glance. It's what you get with junk ammo.

Did you get the ACSS variety? Would like one of those!

@@ShastaBean - ACSS ? Sorry not sure you that means.

@@Mako-sz4qr It's something offered by Primary Arms...check it out. Reticle is a point ^...among other things; a ring around the border to acquire & drop dots. I see the 503 also is available in Gold color reticle. I wonder how that does?

@@ShastaBean - ah yeas no did not get one of those ACSS but it does look interesting. My 503 has the the dot and The 6moa reticle with dot and I really that a lot and also the shake and wake feature. At least I’m on a good start. Best Regards 👍🏻🇺🇸

You don't know what you are talking about...You are revealing that more & more with each comment. 25 yards off of that table is not the same as 21 feet off of the table.

@@ShastaBean No sir. You are showing your ignorance about firearms. Pistols are more difficult to control than long guns because of the short barrel and sight radius. That being said 21ft (7yds) for a pistol with a 4"-6" sight radius is comparable in difficulty to 25-50 yards for a long gun with a sight radius of 18"-20". This always holds true whether you are shooting off bench or off hand with either one. I would suggest that stop embarrassing yourself or I will have to continue your education in the use of firearms.

@@vinnyb.6524 It's pretty clear you just burp out what you to believe to be factoids and you saw on a video or in comments, and pretend they hold true in every single situation, regardless of what reality might demonstrate. Go shoot with an AR rested at just one point and put the butt stock into your shoulder and try seeing what groups you can shoot with factory FMJ 55 gr ammo and a 6x magnified 1 MOA red dot. Then try a pistol from a rest and see what happens. Have you ever even shot any gun? Ever?

lol great advice & you must be awesome!! Find something else to do, ok? You look like an idiot talking to people that way. dork.

@@ShastaBeanSometimes the truth huts a little. But at least I did not resort to petty name calling. In your own words, "You'll probably get there, someday. Just takes a bit of effort."

it's answered at the summary page at the end & the title; 1st mag

@ShastaBean I didn't watch your whole little video and am not familiar with the abbreviations. Thanks anyway.

@@KevinJames-sr8mi yw anyway. You'll probably get there, someday. Just takes a bit of effort.

Because he is shooting for groups not point of impact.

@@vinnyb.6524 ​ It says POI, right in the title. I'm very much testing where each type of these 55 gr is hitting, so I can adjust the dot. So, yes, POI, for sure. I'm also testing function and trying to get the chrono to pick up the velocity...but thanks for stepping up and letting everyone know what I'm doing. I'm taking it to 100 yards tomorrow, so I guess you can pour your expertise on that outing, too.

Thanks & agree! My only complaint is wishing they'd expand at lower velocities. (1500-1800 like they supposedly market, please). Oh - and I REALLY wish they had a 40gr option!!

@@ShastaBean 40 grain version would be great for 5.7 or hornet for further than 100 yards.

@@jw-sigp2258 did you see my pork shoulder recent upload? I figured that would be useful to see for your Hornet work.

@@ShastaBean It’s very impressive. Looks like my hornet TSX loads will perform good to at least 100 yards. The Hornady HP/BEE bullet would perform great in 5.7x28 by the way. It does best hitting between 1600 and 2700 fps. Even at 1600 HP/Bee gets nice little mushroom on it. They look like a 22 cal xtp.

@@jw-sigp2258 isn't this that Hornady bullet? kzbin.info/www/bejne/bX63eqeKiad-g9k

No. No sales or distribution. Just personal use and testing for fun.

much more than I anticipated - - made the effort thus far be worth it & to continue with it.

and at $1.79 / lb...makes a good buy for Shasta meals!! When I first saw the entry & exit holes, I thought it just penciled through. Ah, no!! That cavity was pretty massive, imo. One of the most satisfying tests I've done so far. If I had a ranch and didn't have to work, I'd love to establish the clear vs organic vs meat relationship. I do think I will eventually brew up a batch of the Knox stuff and see what happens. I'm pretty sure that some, most or all of the rounds that failed to expand in previous clear tests, will actually work. Of course, then there's the clothing barrier...? I don't think denim would make too much difference on these particular tips, though. They are tiny...but maybe? But then we'd want to know at what velocity does it go from pass to fail, in meat or 10% organic? Talking dozens upon dozens of tests. ugh.

@@ShastaBean hahahaha yah if you start to think about it there is a lot more testing…endless testing that could be done…😂🤣

@@triggerbarPhD for sure! I even wrestled with which way to face the pork, being able to feel the bone. Part of me wanted to have it hit there 1st, but my main seek was if it would expand and hitting bone early might screw that up. I def need to buy a ranch!

@@triggerbarPhD but one thing for sure, determined from this test - I ordered 4 more boxes of those 45 gr TSX bullets

@@ShastaBean Yah, I am super impressed with them. I think it's only possible in the longer barrels but I'm thinking I might be able to get that velocity out of my charger at 10.5"...

25 yards

I wanted to include them in magazine, but have seen them keyhole and appear to not stabilize from the couple I've tested with

@@ShastaBean does compensator help or pointless ?

@@ShastaBean like it needs a 6 inch barrel or suppressor to stabilize more or is it the twist?

@@saylessaeetovn9887 have never used compensator

@@saylessaeetovn9887 perhaps the barrel. Doubt suppressor. I only fired 4, but the ones through the rifle didn't appear to keyhole.

R&R IS132D-v3 those should be the Controlled Chaos

Yes. Red River Tactical Type III Holster IWB (Light Bearing Only) MODEL: Custom Configuration *RRT Approval Req'd (because I have the laser up front)

TRIGGERBAR!! First comment I’ve seen in weeks from you! haha I'm not all that certain those shifts aren't just me. It's why I shot the 2 Liberty groups the way I did and sure enough they don't match up that well. The one is 1" higher than the other and .5" hz shift, too! Of course it could be the ammo...but at this point...it's "close enough" for me. The Magtech group is also .5" further right than the last outing and I didn't adjust the dot horizontally. I'm a little agitated with myself because I shot a couple of boxes of the Underwood and didn't realize those also had different LOT#s. I didn't chrono it because I was only checking cycling after the new mag-springs. dangit! And I was standing so I could be sure to lessen the chance of limp-wristing it like I do when I am trying to check POI & groups and hardly even gripping it. Oh well. You'd think I should know by now to pay attention to the boxes better? jeez

and yeah, to your point about the brass - I wonder now if they lightened the charge on purpose because of the brass? And maybe not as strong? It's exhausting trying to guess what these companies are doing when they change their recipes!! I only bought the 1st box to see their velocity from my 4" barrel so I could gauge my own loads better. I wasn't planning to carry theirs, but was happy enough seeing it right around 1200 fps that I bought 3 more - none them I see now match that LOT#. duh!!

@@ShastaBean lol. yah it’s super frustrating that every time we buy a box of ammo we have to test it. I’d say for the most part you are right that the shifts are small enough to not make a difference. The underwood has been disappointing me lately. I got some Rowland rounds that were 200 fps below box. Very sad.

@@triggerbarPhD that's sad. Was it brass stamped with "Underwood"? Or something else like the *---------* ?

agree. This round is why I even started to bother shooting into gel and is the first gel video. Got tired of asking Buffman to test it. He just said a couple of days ago that he has tested it now, but needed to edit it and wouldn't give me any spoiler regarding the IIIA. Some of these are in my carry magazine.

I was literally looking for his video. It’s nice to have a smaller channel test stuff and hear new perspectives. I’m about to buy a 5.7 . Conflicted between the rock and the smith. Ive heard nothing but great things out of both. Rock being cheaper and still great quality along with possible not losing velocity like the smith does is making me lean towards it but still unsure. My only question with vanguard ammo is the reliability to put in a defense carry load but that is hard to tell with out testing lots of ammo

@@aarongilbert9480 I have both. I carry the M&P. I think the Rock has some shortfalls. I am still going to eventually make it ready for placement in the house, though. I liked the Ruger enough, but think I'd choose the PSA over the Ruger. I also have a few Black Fang rounds in the magazine. VO had issues a few years back with the powder sourcing, and change in brass and saw primers also changed. But the 3rd lot of each of the BF & GPM were decent. I suspect it should be more consistent these days, but haven't bought for awhile. The video I'm about to upload shows what looks like change in Underwood. I think most companies have various alterations and like you said, have to test it. I had hoped to carry Elite T6B or S4, but those were wildly inconsistent.

@@ShastaBean​​⁠I will keep watching your videos. I’ve only watched a few so far. Do you think the loss in velocity buffman talked about from the smith 57 is significant or worrisome? Also interested to hear your top rounds to carry or an order for them you would say is best

@@aarongilbert9480 Velocity from M&P is ~25 fps lower than the Ruger. The Rock is yet another ~25 fps lower than the M&P, because of the shorter barrel. It isn't something I'd be concerned with. In fact, I believe it's far less likely to see any neck-separations with the M&P. It's the only of my four 5.7s that didn't experience it with the Extreme Ammunition ZMAX rounds. I'm going to put a video together of what I am carrying. It's 7 different rounds. 3 factory; old 2020 Speer, and VO BF & GPM. The other 4 types are my handloads...Three of which can be bought from R&R.

I didn't realize 9mm could even do this! I knew it could push lighter bullets fast...but this is above much of the 10mm I've chrono'd in terms of energy.

do you have a 9mm carbine? between these and the G9...I'm half tempted to buy one. But what I really want is for Ruger to make their LC available for 10mm. These Civil Defense in that cartridge is the next video I am working on. Those were 60 gr >2350 fps / 750 ft#. Imagine THOSE from a carbine, too?

@@ShastaBean Yeah I have an AR9. Right now it is loaded with standard 115 hollow points as a house gun. I put a heavier buffer in it and going to run some +P+ 9MM BPLE.

I don't load 9mm, but I expect it's a matter of case-volume and 9mm can use more powder

@@ShastaBean It looks like the 5.7 has a slightly larger case volume. It's possible to stuff enough powder into the 5.7 case to risk blowing up the gun. This is really strange. I sent an email to Liberty Ammo to see if they can shed some light on this topic. Maybe there is some new powder on the market that Liberty ammo is using. Kind of like Hornady in their Superformance line. Or the 5.7 is just flawed and can't be improved upon.

@@ifinishedelementary yeah, it's a good question. Like I replied to Bill...I didn't realize this could be done with 9mm. It's above ft# of the some of the 10mm I've chrono'd. And you are right, that the volume is slightly higher in 5.7, which I wouldn't have guessed. So it could then be that more powder can still go into a 9mm, due to bullet length + the bottle neck part not really being able to take powder and the 5.7 bullets being longer? Dunno. I did just pull a 9mm bullet just to see its length. Fed FMJ was .5940. The 45 gr TSX is .6970. The 40 gr Nosler BTLF is ~.8100. I'd be interested to see what they come back with if you get an answer. When I compare the charges I'm working on with the 45 gr TSX, I've gotten up to 7.3 gr of Acc #7 with the latest primers and didn't pierce them. I might be able to get 7.4...we'll see. But with 9mm, same Acc #7 I see a 90 gr TAC-XP the Hodgdon data says a max of 8.0 and 8.2 gr for 115 GR. BER RNDS. That leads me to believe it would probably need an even higher amount, for a 50 gr bullet? Maybe 9.0? But I suspect they have a magic powder like you suggest. The fact the box says 2040 fps, and I (and now I see others) have measured above 2150 fps...? dang! Let me know if you get an answer. Now I'm curious.

@@ifinishedelementary oh, and if you do get a dialogue with them...I am also SUPER curious if they can tell you what pressure these rounds are reaching. That book data I mentioned says the 9mm 90 gr Barnes w/ Ac#7 8.0 gr is 34,900 PSI. Vel stated is 1242 fps, for an energy of just 308 ft#. Sooo...~520 ft# from these??? +P max is supposed to be ~38,500? These have to be well into +p+ realm. Whereas the book says the 45 gr Sierra Hornet w/7.4 gr says 45,400 PSI. I pulled a Civil Defense and bullet is .4990" (so, comparatively shorter) and powder charge is bumping up against 8.7 grains. It looks a lot like Acc#7, but maybe not exactly. Didn't take the time to dump some side by side. OAL was ~1.1100

+p ammo.

yw

YW & I can relate. Too time consuming, but I'd like to test this extensively in gel - synthetic & organic, with & w/o clothing and also into meat and do every velocity at 25-50 fps intervals. I wish I knew if I'm wasting my time because it wont' ever expand...or if the synthetic is so stingy with expansion that I'm pushing velocity for no good reason and the 2186 fps I got on 1st test is actually sufficient in real tissue.

YW

here's the K.O. punch to the table. haha kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYLbf6yXic6jmNk

Tough question! I'm going to work on a Short that has the different rounds I'm putting in the magazine for my carry. It's 4 handloads + 3 Factory...being a few Vanguard 36 gr GPM + a few 34 gr Black Fang + the older 2020 version of 40 gr Speer GD. I haven't bought from Vanguard recently, but they did have consistency issues (vel & poi) from my 1st, 2nd & 3rd LOTs. It seems they got it sorted out by my 3rd LOT, so those are the ones I'll have included. I'd certainly keep trying them if I didn't handload. Three of my carry handloads are same load as R&R; (R37.X) & (IS130D-v3), & (IS132D) = (37 gr Maker REX) & (30 gr Cutting Edge Raptor) & (32 gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos). R&R has had some issues with light-primer-strikes. But I believe if a person buys and tests, they should know pretty quickly if they are affected, or not. If you experience it, I am pretty sure they'll replace them. If I couldn't load my own, I'd give them a try. They also have a 37 gr fracturing round (now tipped) that I haven't tried, but waiting forever for Maker to show available. If I could only pick one...it would probably be the R&R: IS130D-v3 or the Vanguard 36 gr GPM - if you don't care about having that velocity above 2250 fps.

It's the ammo. Decent ammo would probably be around 1-1.5" groups. Maybe sub MOA with the right projectile. Maybe I'll get around to that.

@@ShastaBean That I could live with out of that type of firearm. Peace and Grace!