I had to come here to comment again. This was one of the most profound conversations I have ever came across online. So many sentences have resonated with me. Also, I just wanted to hug Nina so badly, and Stephanie was such a great interviewer. Thank you, ladies.

Calmly now, let me say this is a very important lesson-podcast: If schools really are teaching preposterous transgender nonsense (!!!WOW -- really?) the how can we expect people to believe them if they teach the most basic science, even that matter is made of invisible atoms and molecules? Thus, despite my differences with some of the epistemological content, I must emphasize my alliance and sympathy with SW and KF. We need to get beyond our tribal responses of slings & arrows to a reality-based future of a just and verdant society. I was tempted to edit my integrate other comment, but I guess I should let it stand and take my lumps. How would one expect people to accept the intricate and solid science underlying anthropognenic climate forcing, evolution, vaccine science, issues of viruses, microbes, public health - when the focus is now on pushing the staggering delusion of biological trans-sexuality? Post-modern "thought" could usher in a new Dark Ages.I will continue to learn about ROGD. This is very important issue and my thanks to all who consider it, regardless of religion & other politics.

What a great communicator is Jaco van Zyl. He explained complex concepts in down-to-earth ways with practical applications. He avoided psychobabble and terms that had not been defined. He just generously taught a whole course in one interview. Sadly, our country passed a law against conversion therapy so any attempt to explore the psychodynamics of presenting gender dysphoria will place a practitioner at high risk of criminal prosecution and loss of career. Only enthusiastic affirmation of the dysphoria as a sign of transgender essence requiring self-delusional and medical solutions will be acceptable, as if that isn't conversion therapy!

Could somebody tell me the difference between, "experience" and "lived experience"? What does the word "lived" add to the concept of "experience"? "Lived experience" started showing up around six or seven years ago in BLM activist interviews. Suddenly it's everywhere. Of course, experience is "lived" or it wouldn't be experience.

ROGD project is very important! This episode -- mixture of good sense (stable family a good idea) but larded with straw-man arguments and strident oversimplification. A stable blended family is preferable to a miserable fractured mess, so good on you, SW for your new family scene. BUT at ~45 minutes, KF grotesque ecological ignorance.This degrades the gravitas of SW's work. Yes, yes, KF, biological sex is binary and immutable, good for you. (Is true, some cranks now say otherwise.) But the statements re "issues of reality" after revealing ignorance -- it's cringeworthy -- here is KF, Dunning Kruger at work, highly educated in one field, clueless about the decades of rigorous work, mountains of evidence, fundamental physics underlying anthropogenic climate issues and related consequences. But what does a white male 75 year-old scientist know? Been following this in the top journals (do you even know what they are?) & colleagues' work for decades. My own credentials, the MS, Ph.D. in biological & biomedical fields, I'm not going to tell you about Taiwan's circumstances or how to raise your kids. And "natural law" -- pre-government? really? -- humans have been organizing in various governmental systems though eons of biological and social evolution -- so this is slippery and suspect. I don't know -- seems to smell of "I've got mine, screw you Jack" Libertarianism. No sense of history here. Read the 19th century stuff Charles Dickens of Mark Twain or...well, never mind. And the epithet: "bleeding heart liberal" might someone you as cruel ad heatless -- do you like it? I'd like to see more clear and careful thinking and reality-based policy and we've got a long, long way to go to bridge the gap. I guess it doesn't matter, anyway.

Went through this as a lesbian. My wife was not my wife and when I expressed that I am a lesbian and we might not work out I was accused of being transphobic. We divorced for other reasons but it was in my opinion an entitlement from them that they assumed I would give up my identity or could give up my identity for their identity. They were the only thing that mattered. Relationship was very abusive and controlling even without the transition. I am happy we are done.

Natural rights have always been very attractive to me, but I was hoping for an explanation of the apparent contradiction in asserting that children have a natural right to be loved by their biological parents. Not only is that asserting a right to something that someone else must provide, but it's something that the other party may not even be capable of providing. I also wonder what that implies in practice. Children already have a right to life and to not be abused, so this right would only be relevant to a household that is NOT abusing their kids, but what? Not loving them adequately? What in the world does that mean?

I really liked the guest's quick and dirty framework for parental involvement with their kids. Although, I'm very much on the side of protecting young kids from inappropriate content, and I'm even a bit prudish myself, I see a lot of people on that side going way overboard to where they treat a person who tells a racy joke to an < 18 as no different than a predator. And to me, that kind of sheltering is incredibly damaging, so I was glad to hear the guest recommending parents take a step back at middle school. Personally, I would like to see kids bearing responsibilities and maybe even entering the work force much younger. The funny thing is that I'll bet a lot of Conservatives would be thrilled by the idea of a 14 year old learning to do a construction job. But it's just a fact that if you put a 14-year-old on a construction site, they're going to be exposed to EVERY inappropriate subject imaginable, which some Conservatives just need to come to terms with.

The idea of transitioning is a snake oil being sold to vulnerable people, who are desperate for an answer and solution to their distress.

With all the respect ,I wouldn't even call you a stepmom , cause the child has his or her mom ,it's not like he or she is an orphan .The word mom , like the word dad , is referred only to one person . There's only one mom . You're the dad's new wife or new partner and that's fine .

I didn’t know the school was lying, I didn’t know I should have been teaching hard life truths at twelve 😢 my 3 are adults now and extremely woke! All identify as queer - my son in middle of two sister cheerleaders thinks he is trans. Hard to hear what I should have done - after once damages are established

She is saying his, the trans motive is to trample over women. Its not. They want acceptance as women. Im not supporting that they should get it because they are not women and never will be but i dont think all of them are motivated by a desire to trample over womens rights. They want the same rights as women. Theyre deluded.

I wonder what she thinks of anal sex. Id run from a man who requested that of me though its acceptable by many it seems. ???

So Helen want to dictate to women whether she wears a mini at 60. Ive better slimmer legs than some women half my age. She isnt telling 27 yr olds with fat cellulite ridden thighs what not to wear. She needs to reign herself in a bit if she wants support.

Some women dont agree with Helen. Ive heard them in TV audiences. I recall the support Caroline Cossey received. A form of Munchausens! really! Thats going a bit far?

Like suites of furniture. Designed for men. Its so annoying that i cant have my lower back supported properly while having my feet on floor because im not 5 9. Im 5 4 snd cushions are usually 21 plus inches deep.

I was misdiagnosed as manic when i was just hyper from caffeine overdose, cigarettes combined with 5 hrs of boredom in ER room. I was very talkative by time i saw doc and so they decided i was manic. I flushed their pills down toilet and 3 days later they decided i was better. All i had was a mild lung infection. Next time i see a doc ill try to just say yes no um dunno maybe instead of talking fast in order to squeeze my med history into 5 mins because they dont have the time and stick to water as they never have decaf in their machines.

Brilliant 👊

Again, intriguing -- I self-identify as a new viewer & subscriber. Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials -- and the milestone birthday. Sorry to learn about the COVID. The natural world is complicated. Living, learning, growing. ROGD work does seem like the suitable course, for now. You project equanimity and insight.

Yikes! Critical theory...post-modern nonsense. This is astonishing. Can this really be so widespread? (There's something happening here; what is ain't exactly clear...) Astrology??? In a program at all? Treated more seriously than CBT, yeah, that figures. (Since when is astrology "Women's Ways of Knowing? Check out the history of that pseudoscience...) It sure would be fun to talk with either of these people. As a Taurus I have a thing or two to say but my sex, age, orientation and recent ancestry reduce my social capital. Did I miss the part when RR reveals what school this is? Any program that hires degrees from University of Phoenix is intrinsically suspect is my first reaction.

Late to the party, here (not to the issue, though), but grateful to hear the details of your story, Stephanie. You are a gem. As an older, adult detransitioner, I’ve wondered what my former psychologist, here in California would say if I asked her why she affirmed me, despite the fact that she had been counseling me for about seven years, where I had presented a zillion reasons why I would want to abandon my womanhood, none of which were based on the precept of believing I was a man-until it became a viable option.

That's crazy to think about "what is your child is trans?" when he is still in the womb. There are so much things more important.

💚 Thanks NinA 💚 U R the Best 💚

The specific court case he made reference to where the sane parent lost is in Texas! And the crazy parent is a pediatrician!! 😫😫😫

NP doesn't seem to accept the fact that language changes over time, or that in a democracy, the Rule of Law is the only thing that matters. If a person is legally designated female and is an adult, she is a woman. Same for legal males/men (and it is interesting how few seem to care about born-females transitioning to male; maybe "male privilege" isn't really a thing, because just about anyone is welcome to that space).

Defer to the authority of the child

I'm so impressed with the volume of wisdom, insight and good old common sense here. Thank you Stephanie and MaryCate.

Ok, I'll say it at this late date: You're a breath of fresh air, Stephanie. I'm learning a lot about gender issues from your podcasts, and you are a heroine.

I love Nina’s art! I have shared the short “if you must believe” many times. Please don’t give up.

❤ Nina! A brilliant artist ahead of her time!

I can't believe the American Chinese-like Cultural Revolution hasdestroyed the carrer of someone as talented as Paley. I really love her Sita and Seder movies and was hoping for more. Stay strong Paley! You are bright and gifted, they have nothing on you, just a herd of sheople.

Watching this and at 1:12:54 SW comes in just right: (sex matters) "and in medicine..." Hugely! Thus the argument against sex binary becomes, essentially, enormously misogynistic in a very important way. Women's medical issues too frequently have taken a back seat.

Rare and refreshing to hear an artist come out so strongly against copyright. Some of her arguments sounded like they may have been influenced by Stephen Kinsella or Jeff Tucker. Copyright was the foot in the door to attack free speech online. It forced tech platforms to create these vast systems of automated content policing that would later be turned towards enforcing any peculiar preference of people in power.

Thank you for this conversation and to you both for your courage!! I wish we could all support each other somehow. Every single canceled woman serves to terrify thousands more into silence.

Diagnostic overshadowing -- I'll try to remember that phrase. Another thoughtful discussion about a cultural/medical/political issue that has been -- until recently -- only on the periphery of my thoughts. A great deal of information and insight here -- the part about "modern-day conversion therapy" rings true -- and the followup SW observation and question about ROGD in the larger population of children is -- chilling.

Stephanie, have you read Jo Freeman's _Trashing: The Dark Side of Sisterhood_ ? It sounds like that was the term for "cancellation" in 1976. If Ms. Freeman is still with us, she might have some interview-worthy insights to share. (And the 50th anniversary of that article is coming up!)

I love her cards they're a great conversation starter... And an education about all of this.. on players of all sides💜

Yes a child could have their own understanding Towards a lesson Which a person wouldn't think That I wouldn't be

Parents are the teachers of language in a community Which a young child could be introduced into

Enjoyable, thought-provoking conversation that had me stopping to visit Nina P's website & read some of her essays. Life is complicated. I like the reference to music so frequently running in our minds. Ah, my internal soundtrack: "New Speedway Boogie; "Ship of Fools" & so here we go...(75 years upon my head and still you...)

My late brother showed me "Sita Sings the Blues" years ago... I never knew who made it, so happy to find Nina Paley

Excellent. James is one of the most important intellectuals of modern times. But I still think in 2025 we're losing the cultural war.

I love Nina Paley I look Forward to this

What a great pleasure to see the creator of Sita Sings the Blues and Seder Masochism. Both (but particularly Sita) are beyond wonderful. After I discovered them I sent links to their KZbin versions to everyone I know. Sometimes I just re-watch one or the the other because they never get old to me.

Cancel culture is just a dress rehearsal for mass murder

Thank you for your time ladies. 🐿

I love Nina Paley. I’m an old school San Franciscan too, and I remember the Tranny Shack, and working alongside trannies, who were fun and outrageously unique back in the day, and often very hardcore people who I had a lot of respect and sympathy for. I remember when the Tranny Shack apologized for their name and it shocked me, then it closed down. All of the lesbian bars shut down. And young overly sensitive people completely changed the conversation. San Francisco stopped being fun, and I began to avoid the community as it became filled with angry touchy people who were looking for offense that wasn’t there.

I would have thought eve is the quintessential scapegoat of the Bible, you know, since everyone blames her for original sin and everything

I'm glad gender-critical views are being given a platform, but being against copyright laws is just off the wall. Copyright laws exist for a reason. Intellectual property is property, and I don't want anybody stealing mine. It's called plagiarism and it's both illegal and unethical.

1:00:00 As to purity, and saying that "this is human nature, so all humans behave this way, including me:" I don't agree with Nina. We *don't* all act the same, and whether or not we scapegoat others depends on our chosen behavior. Some people don't choose that behavior, and they are not lying to themselves to know that.