Ah no nevermind

Right, he's so much more than just a deep voiced visual

It's the official Mashup they released for the In:Life promotions: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2WqdIiLeLJprcU

Thank you! It did take a lot of work, this one in particular, but it was fun to edit and I'm happy that it is appreciated 😁 I would do some things differently now, if I made it again, but I guess that's inevitable after 6 months. The OG Hip-Hop connection was actually one of the reasons why I decided to sit down and make this guide instead of just talking about it to my friends all the time. I kept seeing people getting confused that Chan almost never raps on Stray Kids tracks, when he supposedly started out as a rapper in 3Racha alongside Changbin and Han. Meanwhile, I was here, internally screaming... but he is the DJ! Why do you expect him to rap? It isn't unusual that a DJ doesn't rap! I'm European and I obviously grew up far away from any of the birthplaces of Hip-Hop, but I was around when this type of music started to cross over from America, and there were a lot of magazine articles and radio/tv features explaining it in the late 80s and early 90s. There were a lot of people back then, who only talked about this strange new "rap music", and they usually thought all you needed to make a "rap song" was having a person speak rhythmically over a piece of music instead of singing that same verse, like they usually would in a pop song. Many pop and rock artists tried to retroactively claim that they were the first rapper in their European country, because they talked instead of sang on a song in the 70s or something. 🙈 I think one guy even tried to call himself the first rapper of his country (I forgot which one) for recording a radio commercial where he talked rapidly over a jingle in the early 80s. 🤦 So, back then, if you were genuinely interested in Hip-Hop as a subculture instead of just seeing "rap music" as a weird novelty, you had to know about MCing, DJing, Breakdance, and Grafitti. At that time, there was still a lot of live mixing with actual turntables going on. What really made me do a double take was when I realised that some people thought I was disrespecting Bang Chan by calling him "only" a DJ, instead of a rapper in 3Racha, as if being a DJ was somehow second-rate compared to rapping in a Hip-Hop crew, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Seeing "Prod. by CB97" on their 3Racha album covers really made it click for me, that they were not 3 rappers, but (style-wise) an actual Hip-Hop trio with their own DJ, and it was a true "🤯 now it all makes sense"-moment. However, a friend pointed out to me that the people who misunderstood me were probably unfamiliar with Hip-Hop, and that if they hear "DJ", they might picture some lame guy who presses play on the stereo during their cousin's wedding party or something. 🤦 I couldn't just leave them with that impression 😅 Of course, nowadays, DJs work with a laptop and online sample libraries instead of turntables and digging crates at record stores for hours to find that perfect sample, but the role as the beat makers hasn't changed.

Thanks! 💚 I started making these guides partially because it isn't the type of information that usually gets included in general guides, and I labeled them in a way that will hopefully bring people, who are interested in this side of the industry. One of my friends joked that I could write a thesis on self-production in KPop by now, because I have looked into so many other aspects related to it, just to give myself a better idea what 3Racha are doing and where they stand in the industry. There are actually a lot of misconceptions around this topic in KPop and in Pop in general, that I also held uncritically, because I just didn't know and it isn't something that's really talked about. I hesitated putting that intermission there at first, because it is a tangent, but I realised that especially Western KPop fans who were socialised in the Western market, come in with a skewed perception of what artists do in Pop. It is really complex to sort through, because the terminology is not clear. I only put the triad of lyrics - composition - arrangements in the video, because that's how credits are usually awarded. But as soon as you get into the details and everyday conversations, the same words can be used to mean different things and it gets messy quickly. For instance, "this artist writes their own music" can mean "they write/contribute to lyrics", but it can also mean "they write lyrics and compose toplines". So, songwriter can mean lyricist, but more often it is lyrics + composition. Often, it takes time to figure out which one it is In most genres of popular music in the West, artists who write their own lyrics and toplines have a reputation of being "artists who make their own music". But there is also "production". There are (at least) two meanings to the word that get thrown together all the time: on the one hand, the person (usually a behind the scenes professional) who makes the arrangements and often contributes to composition as well is called "producer". But on the other hand, the person who takes the executive decisions on where a song should go etc. is also called "producer", and sometimes, this is someone who does not touch the arrangements at all, but might or might not be a songwriter or the artist themselves. For example, Taylor Swift, even though she "only" directly contributes lyrics and composition to her songs, is also a producer of her own music in that sense, because she makes these decisions together with the lead producer/arranger (Max Martin mostly). So, does that mean she is "fully self-produced"? On the one hand you could say yes, because she is one of the driving forces behind the direction her songs take. (btw. I only use her as an example, because a lot of people know her, but it is not music I personally listen to and I'm unfamiliar with many details beyond that) On the other hand, it gives a really skewed impression if you don't also acknowledge that the person she has most often worked with behind the scenes has been one of, if not the most successful Pop music producer in the world for more than two decades. As much as Taylor Swift makes her own music, it matters that someone like Max Martin was there with her, if you want to understand her music's mainstream appeal. Still, before I looked into it, I didn't know she worked with Max Martin. Not because it was a secret, she actually mentions it a lot, but if you don't follow her and only go by superficial talk about her, she has this reputation as someone who makes her own music. I simply never stopped to think about who else might contribute to it. If we decide that yes, this still means she is self-produced, because she shares the executive co-producer role, then how do you differentiate this from a hip-hop crew whose DJ/producer is often their (official or inofficial) leader and if they work with additional external producers, the crew members themselves are much more hands-on in making the actual arrangements (but indirectly, they "outsource" some of the professional producer tasks to whoever made the sample they are using). Where do you want to draw the line? Do we even have to draw a line? I don't think we necessarily do, but we need to stop acting as if it was a huge flaw for artists to work with professionals, even though that's what everyone has to do on some level. That's why it is so crucial to understand the hip-hop roots of 3Racha and some of the other hip-hop based KPop acts. Most of the KPop acts that are called self-produced actually follow the Pop music tradition (so, like Taylor Swift, where the idols write, maybe compose, and if they are really involved co-produce in the executive sense, but don't touch the arrangement). Now, you can't really compare the two industries, and what goes on behind the scenes that might be undeclared also muddies the waters, but I see a lot of Western people get into KPop holding idols (other than their faves, obviously 🙄) to a much higher standard than they would with Western artists. Unknowingly, because they never questioned their assumptions about music in the West, and what they think they know about Korea. Like, I legit saw people question whether SKZ should be allowed to call themselves self-produced, because they collaborate with other producers and even sometimes because they use samples (who in KPop doesn't 🤦). If that is your standard, then nobody in the mainstream pop business meets your standard for self-produced. But it also always makes me uneasy when Stays act as if SKZ 100% do everything themselves... because they don't. Nobody on this level of Pop music production does. They can't. SKZ do a baffling amount themselves, and it speaks for how well-organised their process is that they manage to do it all. The moment I realised how far it really goes, was when I found that clip of Bang Chan talking about how he listens to the tune, mixing, and mastering monitors and interacts with the engineers to make sure the final product fits their vision. And I think this is actually something that you can hear in SKZ songs. They are always super well mixed (from what I as a layperson and amateur can tell), and I think part of it is because 3Racha as the people with the most clear vision of the final song are the ones giving feedback, and Bang Chan is obviously skilled/trained enough to be able to communicate with these technicians and engineers. (And yet, they still need to get JYP and whoever else executive produces on their albums to sign off on it in the end. Nuances.) I don't know enough of the process of other self-producing groups to be able to tell how common all of this is in KPop, but the more I look into it, the more I find that at least for boy groups (for girl groups, the situation is even more complex) and soloists (male or female), it isn't that unusual to have the artists or certain members consistently contribute to the lyrics and/or composition. Especially those following a hip-hop tradition production-wise usually have rappers who write their own verses at least. However, it seems like for most groups who do that, there is either only one member who participates in the production beyond lyrics, or several members do that on different songs, but not together, and not as a fixed unit like 3Racha. So, this seems to be something that is unusual about Stray Kids. But unfortunately, KPop fandoms, especially for boy groups, have a tendency to believe their faves are "not like other girls [boygroups]". They never really seem to know who these other groups are exactly, that their faves are so unlike to. (They exist, mostly groups under SM tend to be more focused on performance and only allow artist contributions to their already established and successful acts. But the pool of artists who contribute to their own music in KPop is larger than cliché would have it, especially starting from 3rd Gen onwards, and to me it doesn't seem significantly smaller (proportionally) than in Western Pop.) At the end of the day, what matters is the music that comes out of it, what the artists want to accomplish, and how it is received by audiences. I think I mentioned it elsewhere, the production was actually what caught my attention first and there are a lot more things that could be said about it 😅

No need to apologise, I make videos to channel these thoughts, after I talked my friends' ears off (or the equivalent in written form 🙈 ) about this. This myth about "only 100% self-made art is truly authentic" is another thing I might eventually make a full video on. Also alongside the idea that being self-produced is somehow inherently superior to being "just" a performing group. I became a Stay because I liked their production so much, so it might sound hypocritical of me to say this, when 3Racha production was what got me hooked and it is such a core part of SKZ identity. But self-produced is a quality because they are good at it, not because they are more authentic and thus inherently better that way. One of my other favourite KPop artists is Taemin, and he doesn't write his own songs nor choreograph them (at least not as main choreographer). Performance is an art for a reason, and he is such an incredible performer, that he makes all of these songs uniquely his own. Being able to bring music to life on stage and convey its emotions or other messages is a skill and a talent. Good performers make someone else's words their own and interpret them for us. KPop artists aren't inherently less worthy of support if they "only" perform songs other people made for them, or if they focus on interpreting the artistry of people behind the scenes. All of Pop music including KPop is ultimately a commercial endeavor meant to make a profit. For SKZ it is a core part of their identity that they write and produce their own songs, but that's because this is an artform they chose to use to express themselves early on, and they are good at it. They also followed a tradition within pop and kpop in particular that lends itself to that approach. Also, the part about arrangements that I left out (because it is a different can of worms): the reason why hip-hop DJs could make their own arrangements while pop artists (and even rock artists including bands like The Beatles) rely on professionals, is that DJs work with samples, whereas pop and rock work (at least partially) with instruments. Some pop and rock producers apparently look down on hip-hop artists, because they don't start from scratch, but build on music someone else has already made before them. If you go into the details of the album credits for SKZ for example, you can see that the parts that the other producers on their songs are credited for usually include "all instruments". That's not just a question of skill, but also simply too time-consuming to be left to the idols themselves. And it means more creative input by different people. It might be a complete tangent, but many of the great technological breakthroughs that our modern societies are built on were made by several people independently of each other, and the one that stuck around and eventually became the standard isn't necessarily the best one. One of the differences between successful and forgotten inventors is that those we remember were usually part of a team and were integrated into a network of other people, who could make use of it and spread it. The lone wolf genius who is better off alone is a myth. It is the same for music. You can maybe get a one-hit wonder or a few TikTok hits as an independent artist, the playing field has changed a lot recently in favour of small creators, but in order to get multiple albums to the top of something like Billboard 200 and go on tour to perform it live, you need a huge team of people working for you, and they will all influence the music in some way or other. I actually really appreciate SKZ a lot for always pointing that out and always thanking the people behind the scenes. SKZ contribution doesn't need to be embellished, it is impressive enough as it is. I actually think none of the 3Racha members could have achieved the quality they get as a trio on his own. At first glance, given how many types of credits Bang Chan has, you might think that he could work alone, that he maybe indulges the others by letting them contribute. And when he insists that it isn't his own merrit, but all of 3Racha, it might sound like false modesty. But once you look into it, you realise pretty quickly that he isn't being modest and that he actually probably really couldn't do it that well without the others. The way he describes it often, when he talks about their process, makes it clear that he needs Changbin and/or Han for that creative spark they have, to tempt him to venture out of the box his very organised and structured approach and personality would probably keep him in if he worked alone. He seems to be great at enabling others to realise their own potential - and in doing so he also taps into his own creative potential that he would probably not have access to without them. So, it is mutually beneficial (but it still takes a lot of understanding to be able to see that and make use of it). It is one of my special pet peeves when I see people act as if Hyunjin had made Red Lights and Taste all on his own. For Red Lights we have the glimpse they show of their process during Howl in Harmony and I was really impressed with the way Bang Chan helped Hyunjin canalise his thoughts and ideas into a song. Hyunjin did a lot of the creative thinking and it sounds like he was the driving force behind the song, so they are not entirely wrong, but he wasn't doing it alone even when Bang Chan just sat next to him and listened. It is disrespectful to dismiss the parts the other creators on these songs contributed, just because it might not look like much on paper (also, Versachoi, he really works magic with SKZ, and he seems to be super talented in matching and accentuating the individual styles of whoever he is working with). My own creative process is probably the most similar to Han's of the three, so I know exactly how this part of the dynamic works. I never understood why people think ideas are valuable, I have way too many ideas to get attached to them, and many of them keep floating around and come and go for days, weeks, months, years, until it suddenly gels and then it is all finished quickly, often in one go. But I often forget to consider all the time the idea was just there, marinading, not really going anywhere... until it does. I can understand how Han is able to unblock Changbin and Chan when their differing visions for a song clash, because there are always so many options you could try of you aren't particularly attached to any of them. But there are also many constantly moving parts in this approach and it can be overwhelming and hard to revisit an idea that you are finished with, but it has maybe only reached the "good enough" state. In situations like these, it is worth a lot when you have someone who is dilligent and organised around you, who doesn't mind either finishing it themselves or manages to get you back into it to actually polish it more. I have worked with people who were like that, where we mutually respected our different strengths and weaknesses, but it can also happen all too easily that you completely fail to connect when you are so different, because you just mindlessly expect the other to work like you and get annoyed if they don't. I loved how 3Racha talked about their process in their different 2Kids Rooms (that I used in the other guide), because they express their own strengths and weaknesses in relation to the others so well. Bang Chan brings structure, Changbin brings depth, and Han brings width, and then it is just a question of finding out where and when which of these core elements is needed. I'm sure they have had heated arguments over a lot of these decisions, because each project is different, but the results speak for themselves. I bet it was an incredible feeling when they first realised how much better (consistently) they are together than on their own. It will certainly be interesting to see how they'll transition into the later stages of their career as a group, but I find it encouraging to see that they always prioritise longevity over short-term success. They seem to be in agreement both within the group and with the company strategy, that their goal is to find out how far they can go, not how high they can fly. Currently, they are on a trajectory that could very well end up going both high and far, but I hope that Stays also understand and share that goal, and don't lose faith if other groups overtake them or surpass them in certain metrics, maybe because other companies or groups prioritise higher heights more. That's not a criticism of either approach, it's just that different priorities lead to different choices, and sometimes the measure of what success means is also different. So, I think SKZ will have succeeded by their own stated goal if they are still around in x years, making music that enough people love to listen for them to be able to continue doing that, whatever it might look and sound like by then. I found this eye-opening when I looked into their debut era. While certain impatient fans and especially antis were already declaring them a failure after a year, both SKZ themselves and JYP were not worried, and committed to them going at their own pace, taking their time to find their true audience, rather than trying to fit expectations of an existing audience. They were and are aiming for a more organic growth over time that is more sustainable. So far, it has paid off massively. I think it isn't a bad thing per se if SKZ have the goal to go far and Stay as a fandom focus on getting each individual comeback as high as possible, that's how both was achieved for them in recent years. But I find it really encouraging to see that the group themselves and for all we can see JYPE, too, are committed to the long-term.

I cannot love both your comments any more if I tried. The dynamics of 3racha. The very clear goal SKZ has of longevity and quality (that is to their taste) rather than being considered #1 and topping all charts. I've been wanting to scream these things to so many Stays, so many times. Sigh. And I'm sure SKZ wants the accolades too. Why not? But what a lot of ppl miss is, they want longevity, authenticity and control more. Its a matter of priorities. Anyway, love the whole comment section under this video. Its getting into the nuanced conversations I see sorely lacking in fandom spaces.

@@savagekingz1678 I agree with all of this and like how you have expressed it. Many of my formative years were in the US during the 1970's and '80s, when that myth of the lone wolf artist mixed with a sort of widespread social contempt for "the man" in the form of "big business" (including recording/entertainment) companies to create a very odd idea of how creative people are supposed to function. It has taken me decades to start recovering from that weird and toxic myth. I do enjoy Taemin's work. He has a flair for personalizing and owning his various songs and choreography, regardless of whether/how much he is involved in the original creation, and I also enjoy much of the work of the NCT collective, which does not seem to center their image around the self-producing/composing aspect. In both those cases, you can hear the influence of different producer/composers during different eras. My understanding is that many groups have a particular producer attached to or associated with them, because this helps to give them a distinctive sound. Over the years those producers might change, but my guess is that with the more successful groups, the main producers stay the same until that distinct sound or artistic persona has been established by close collaboration. Han's artistic process sounds most familiar to me, and I personally believe that people with that type of process really need others around them who can help bring the spark to the tinder, and then help them build a fire out of it. It's possible that part of why I've never really followed any of those ideas through to make anything of real artistic merit has to do with the way I avoided collaborating due to those weird myths about lone artists. Of course, part of it is also that I enjoy the show inside my own head and am satisfied enough with it that I don't feel the need to bring it into reality. It seems crazy to discount fabulous artists who are incredible interpreters and performers, but not creators. Music is littered with famous performers who did/do not write most of their work, like Frank Sinatra, Etta James, Celine Dion, Celia Cruz. Creative talent and performance talent are not necessarily linked within each person. For instance, in the HotSauce interview you clipped here and elsewhere, that producer said he started as an idol trainee, but realized quickly that he didn't enjoy or want to perform, and he really loves producing--it's not second best for him, it's what he wants to do. And it works the other way as well. I think we can see that within Skz itself. 3Racha and Hyunjin have a drive to create that is clearly inherent in them, and it keeps popping out whether they intend it or not. Meanwhile, Seungmin is clearly a master interpreter. That is what he is interested in, that is what he focuses on, and although he can and does write nice songs, he's not driven to do so. Felix, IN and Lee Know have their own main modes of expression, my sense is that none of them would be particularly driven to create on their own without the strong encouragement of 3Racha. In terms of "long vs high" career arcs--I am constantly amazed at the negative press kpop groups get in the early years. It's not just Skz, apparently BTS also was slammed for having a "slow" start. I've seen it more recently with many new groups. The definition of "slow" is really strange in those cases. There are so many kpop groups debuting every year, that to be in the top ten or so should be something special, yet fans rag on any group that is not instantly number one. I think that is the down side of the huge amount of money, marketing and attention the big entertainment companies invest in their debuting groups. They make a big initial splash, and somehow are expected to instantly shoot up into the sky. I understand if the companies, that invest so much in these groups, want to do better than break even, but this pressure is coming from the fans, not the folks who stand to lose money. So strange! Streaming and social media have changed how fast it is possible to make it big. If you again look at music in the past, it used to take years or decades for groups or artists to "hit it big". The Beatles were touring, recording and performing as a group for 3-4 years before their international fame blew up, for instance. The whole huge marketing machine behind kpop groups is a double edged sword--it can push the groups much farther than they could ever get by themselves, but it also creates these impossible fan expectations of instant payoff, instant success. Because JYP himself worked his way up and made his own success the hard way in the industry, maybe he is more willing to be patient. But most fans are consumers, not artists, performers or creators, and they do not understand any of the process by which really good music/art is created, or how the industry works, or all the pieces that need to fall into place.

@@bluelilac2579 It's so fun to find the sites that generate good comment sections. This is one of my favorites because of that. Probably as it gets more popular and there are way more comments, SavageKing won't have time to answer as much, but for now it's great fun.

Enjoying your comments... dump away...🚚🚚

I actually have plans (I have the skeleton of a script, but I usually bounce several ideas around to see which ones I have actually processed enough to finalise, so, no guarantees 🙈 ) to maybe make a video on what you can learn about team building from SKZ, because they are seriously so good at it. There goes a lot more into it than it might seem, and you need to know what to look for to see it from the outside. I'm a political scientist by trade, my specialisation are complex (social, political) systems, and that's the angle I'm coming from when I'm doing this. I'm more interested in the group as a whole and the individuals within the group, than the individual members in isolation. I think one of the indicators of why SKZ are a great team is that they truly manage to shine both as a group, and as individual artists within it. (And KPop in general is great at this.) I'm also thinking about this, because I recently saw that weird discussion crop up again, whether you can become a fan of idols younger than yourself. I'm old enough to be the younger members' parent, and I'm not only a fan of them, but I also think we can learn a lot from them independent of anyone's age. I think especially in this day and age, where change is so fast-paced, life experience that comes from growing older can be both an asset and a hinderance. Sometimes, older people need to learn from younger people, because they already grow up in such a different world from what we were used to. I thought about that here specifically because of I.N.'s role in SKZ as the maknae (since this is the Vocalracha video). I.N. has such a nuanced position in the team, it is difficult to put it into words properly what he actually contributes, without bringing up a lot of seemingly random things. On the one hand, I.N. is often seen as one of the weaker links in SKZ (wrongly, in my opinion. But "objectively" from certain specialised perspectives, he might be). He often ranks near the bottom in "dance skills" analyses, and until he started to really make his voice his own since after Kingdom, he also was often seen as a weak link vocally, despite being part of Vocalracha. (I really don't feel that way personally. Maybe technically, he might have had issues, I can't judge that, I'm not a vocalist at all, but his tone is so unique and memorable, that it stands out to me in a good way. I'm usually not one for sentimental songs and ballads, but Waiting for Us is one of my favourite SKZ songs, mostly because of I.N.; because when he sings, you can viscerally feel the yearning that is in that song, in a way that I can't explain.) Looking at all of that from purely a performance perspective, it feels like I.N. might indeed have debuted too soon. He was and still somewhat is a diamond in the rough, and with every SKZ comeback, I hope that he'll finally get to shine completely, and in a way that people will notice. He has so much potential, it's crazy, but he's also still in the process of unlocking it (and I love that SKZ does give him that time to develop, and allows him to slowly grow into his own. Same for Felix as well). Alongside this kind of disadvantage, being maybe a little rougher around the edges than some of the others in terms of skill, he's also the maknae and it is easy to see him as a baby. He can be really cute and he has kept a kind of child-like honesty and innocence, that make him charismatic (his charisma is underappreciated by many Stays, too) and why all the other members are fighting over being the number one president of the I.N. fanclub. 😅 He seems to be a genuinely nice person. But on the other hand, I.N. has this natural confidence, that can even come off as cocky sometimes. It needs a specific kind of strength to be that "Maknae on Top", whether it is played in jest or taken seriously. And it strikes me, how every time Bang Chan talks about why he picked I.N. for SKZ (the clip I used here is only one of several instances), he talks about how much he wanted to have I.N. on his team. It seems to be because of I.N.'s personality more than anything, and because of how much he sees I.N. as his natural counterpart. Changbin also says in his 2Kids Room with I.N., that he relies a lot on him, because I.N. gives you the real talk if you need an honest feedback. He seems to be very blunt about it and that's what they appreciate. (And we can see it in some of his dry and even savage comebacks to comments and teases from the others, in SKZ Talker and other BtS and Variety content.) In the 2Kids Room with Bang Chan, they talk about how I.N. would probably have become the leader of a later group, if he hadn't debuted with SKZ, because he clearly has leadership qualities. But I.N. also says that he would probably be too strict and rigid as a leader to be comfortable in that position, and he prefers to be the maknae instead. Because... and that's where the teamwork aspect comes in, as the youngest, these overly strict leadership qualities - that could easily get oppressive if he was the oldest or the actual leader - work really effectively to set boundaries for the others. Good teamwork isn't only about finding the right people for the job, it is also about finding where the people you have fit in, so their strengths are useful, their personalities shine, and their weaknesses have no impact (it is generally better to make weaknesses inconsequential, rather than waste time and effort to try and eliminate them.) In this case, it can mean using leadership qualities not to lead, but to balance, and it is honestly super impressive that they figured that out as teenagers! It is my impression from these 2Kids Rooms and other stuff, that Bang Chan is... hm, scared is a strong word, but he is definitely apprehensive at least, of the danger of him getting carried away by his own perfectionism and impossible outside expectations, and how much this could end up unintentionally hurting people (and he might have done so during stressful times before debut, at least judging by the way he feels the need to apologise to the others in all of these talks). You can see that I.N. (alongside Changbin) is the person in SKZ who keeps that in check for him. Not even actively sometimes, just by being there. I.N. is super important for the team balance, in a way that isn't immediately obvious, if you are only a casual Stay or if you only look at what you see on stage. Clearly, his personality was so important for the team dynamic, that they took the risk of debuting him early. So, as much as Maknae on Top is a meme, and as much as I.N. is never actually the boss leading the team for real, it is very deliberate and very important that they can all pretend like he is, and he has a strong enough personality to give weight to that. Even if I.N. might seem like a weak link on stage, depending on what aspects you look at (e.g. the dancing analyses, or the fact that I.N. on average gets fewer lines in their songs), he is absolutely vital to the team.

@@savagekingz1678 Yes, I can see your background in the way you think and analyze. The older I get, the more I appreciate systems of various kinds--how can we set things up to minimize issues arising, and make them easier to identify and solve if they do arise? I agree that we can learn things from those younger than us. I am easily twice the age of all Skz group members; if I and my hypothetical kid had both been parents in our teens, I could technically even be a grandmother to all of them. Yet I learn a lot from watching their interactions. This feels right to me. I've been in many dance and movement classes where the teacher was much younger than the students. This is because a professional dancer will become an expert very young--many dancers' performance careers will end by their mid 20's, after years of performing and learning their craft. When they retire from performing, many end up teaching classes for adult non-professionals who just enjoy dancing. In my 30's and 40's I took many dance classes taught by those in their 20's, and my fellow classmates were sometimes in their 60's or 70's, and these young teachers were definitely the experts regardless of age. What is interesting about kpop groups in general, and Stray Kids in particular, is that they specialize in group dynamics. Building a healthy group is actually part of their training in better companies. Part of this is cultural--it is common in Asian cultures to emphasize group health over individual health, (as opposed to Western/Caucasian cultures promoting individual rights over group needs) and to have very clear social hierarchies. But the better kpop companies have also learned over the years that a group with longevity earns them more money in the long run. So it's in the interest of companies to figure out general systems that increase the chances of a group lasting longer, and key among those would be teaching trainees habits and systems that help members work together smoothly. Humor is a big part. Idols get their egos punctured regularly. Ever watch those idol variety shows where they make idols do all sorts of things which are guaranteed to make anyone look silly? Aegyo, wearing silly costumes, passing eggs on spoons from mouth to mouth, etc. Or that recent Skz special where they had to debate whether it's better to hold in pee or poo.....Since a big reason many pop groups in the West break up is from ego issues, with one member getting too arrogant, demanding etc., this actually makes a lot of sense. And more and more often now, we see the sorts of shows like 2 Kids Room, where it is obvious that the members have had training in interpersonal relationships, in how to work together, how to get along and accept one another. Chan--I think he is a natural leader. He is one of those people who automatically takes charge and organizes a group, with a talent for group dynamics, an ability to sense the timing to focus a group and get it pointed in the right direction. He automatically takes responsibility, and he always is trying to help the people around him be the best they can be. If he sees that something needs to be done, he either does it or makes sure that someone else does. But his leadership style has been heavily influenced by the fact that he was the maknae in many of the groups he trained with, and did not like how he was treated. If he had not been a natural leader, I think he would have been fine with that role, and more comfortable with his treatment. But for a natural leader, with the ability to see what needs to be done and the desire to make that happen, to be in a position of no power and no voice, would have been extremely uncomfortable. He probably was criticized for behaving like a leader when it wasn't his role. I think that experience made him dedicated to making sure that every member in his team has a voice and a say, and really shaped his attitude to his own maknae, and helped shape his philosophy of leadership. I think that some of what comes across as shy or fearful behavior is partly his way of showing that he is not taking advantage of his power as leader, and of making sure the others are not intimidated by his role. I think he's really afraid of his members feeling the way that he felt; I'm not sure if he realizes that someone who is not a natural leader usually won't feel so distressed when they don't have an active role in leadership or decisions. I love watching the group dynamics in the Mayfly/It's One episodes of Kingdom: Legendary War, because it is fascinating to watch how the members of different groups form themselves into their new units. Each unit had a different dynamic, and I sometimes think that it would have been possible to predict the winners based on how smoothly the groups found a working balance. In a way it is not a fair comparison, because Ateez was allowed to choose which groups to work with, and of course they chose groups that they had the most comfortable interactions with, while the other three groups barely knew one another to start with. But aside from familiarity, you can see how the three Mayfly units used humor to break the ice right away, they teased one another, they supported one another, they did prank calls to other units, they communicated in multiple ways, and quickly became comfortable with one another, while the It's One units stayed more formal throughout, used much less humor, and generally had much more rigid leadership structures. (Of course we don't know how much of this impression is shaped by the show's editing choices). One of the reasons I mention that show is because in the Mayfly rap (5Racha) segment, it is really interesting to watch Chan's leadership. It is subtle and easy to miss, but if you watch his body language, you can see that he is always quietly in charge, he will switch from his goofy or giggly mode right into "OK, now, moving on...". There were several potential leaders of 5Racha--HongJoong is the leader and only composer for his group, and Minhyuk is much older and an experienced and successful composer himself, plus Changbin is so ...verbal and sure of himself. Yet they apparently never even had a discussion about who would lead 5Racha, it was just obviously Chan from the start. It's a very fluid leadership, he's not giving orders or throwing his weight around, he sits back and lets everyone do their thing, but somehow it is clear that he's in charge. You can see Minhyuk's uneasiness at first, as very much the oldest but not the leader. And you can see him testing Chan, those teasing flirting touches were partly power challenges. And Chan could have chosen to get defensive or to challenge back, make it into a power game, but instead he turned it into a flirty moment. I don't know if he did it consciously, but turning a power test into a flirty moment is a very good way to defuse power struggles. It makes it clear that leadership is not about who is being the most bad ass or who looks powerful, it is about who gets more of the leader responsibilities taken care of--and that is clearly Chan. You can also see that in the prep scenes for the Side Effects/God's Menu performance, when the group met with JYPE staff, and Chan made a very clear case for the Skz choice over the staff choice--when he speaks as the leader, you absolutely hear it, he sounds professional, clear, and confident. In that segment, Changbin also spoke very articulately--Changbin speaks like a technical expert, Chan speaks like a manager or executive. In fact, over and over in the Kingdom Skz scenes, I was struck by their professionalism. Most of their self-made content emphasizes the cuteness, the chaos, goofiness and childish aspects of their interactions, but in the Kingdom preparation scenes, we often got to see them very focused, as hardworking grown men working at their profession. It was a bit jarring at first, I was so used to their goofy image. Hmm, interesting about IN. I had a hard time with IN at first, his vocal type is not one that usually appeals to me, and although many people talk about his sweet smile, to me at first it often felt very full of tension, like a smile to hide insecurity, anger or discomfort. In fact he has said that people used to say they were afraid of him because his face naturally looked angry or intimidating, so he learned to smile all the time until it became a habit. These days I feel when he smiles it is more natural and sincere. It took me a long time to see his appeal, although I can't imagine the group without him now, and I've learned to quite like his voice. The 2 Kids Room series was very good for helping me appreciate members who hadn't meant much to me at first, it is clear how essential all members are to the group. I do remember in the initial Stray Kids formation show, when IN had been at risk of elimination several times, that after the busking show, the professionals remarked that they couldn't take their eyes off him, that he just had "something". And JYP said something like "Oh, is that what it is, that explains a lot". As if he hadn't been quite sure why he kept not eliminating him, and now he had a justification for it. And that is very much what Chan has said about why he chose IN--he just has something about him that people want to watch. He's also by far the best actor of the group, his Skz family Grandma was so spot on, and his little LDF ad/mini-drama with Lee Know was by far the best of the three. Gee, I need to stop here. Have fun with your next bunch of stuff, i enjoy a chance to unload some of my ideas on my favorite group of talented goofballs.

@@jadefrog I kind of wanted to put it somewhere, since I might have gotten carried away in these comments at times: the biggest challenge in systemic analysis is to keep it grounded. As humans, we are conditioned to see patterns everywhere, and when you start to try and uncover the structure of a complex system, you are always half a mistep away of falling into conspiracy territory. So, you need to make reality checks and not get attached to a pretty picture if it doesn't actually hold up. One reason why I try to include as many sources as I can is to make the thought process more transparent and easier to retrace my steps. I wanted to mention this here, because contrary to something I would actually study, since I'm doing these SKZ videos for fun, I only have the source material that is accessible to me, and in a serious analysis, I would get feedback from various people who are familiar with the system, but preferably look at it from a different angle. I'm sure if someone who is actually familiar with SKZ and works with them saw this, they would be able to point out stuff that doesn't hold up at all. And sometimes if you are took a wrong turn somewhere, you end up way off. Not only am I limited by what sources I have access to, I also rely on translations and subtitles (unless they speak English in the source), which can also distort meaning or lose important context along the way. So, to some extent, this is closer to interpreting a work of fiction than full reality, because what we see of these artists is only their public persona. Still, I think the fact that there is such strong internal consistency that runs through every aspect of SKZ' work, music, lyrics, MVs, performances, variety content, BtS and making-of videos etc. shows that they do have a working system. In hindsight, it might also have benefitted them that they lost a member when they did (independently of why and how, I don't want to speculate and it doesn't matter in this context), because it gave the system a shock at an opportune moment: they had two years of experience, if you count the survival show, so they had had time to get used to their idol life, and then suddenly, they were forced to regroup and figure out how to continue as 8. I don't think it is a coincidence that they came back with God's Menu after they had had time to properly absorb that shock, and suddenly everything seemed to have fallen into place for them creatively, stylistically, in their teamwork, and also their self-confidence. I want to stress again that this is not to say that the former member didn't fit in and he was the problem, we simply don't know. It doesn't matter in this case, because systemic approaches avoid blaming individuals for structural issues. The types of issues they resolved after the shock were of that nature, so, the shock itself is what matters here, not what caused it. It meant that they had this opportunity to regroup at a time when they had already learned some things that worked for them, and others that didn't. They had a better understanding of the environment they had entered than when they started, but the system hadn't yet had time to settle so much, that change would have been difficult. It wasn't just the fact that he left, it was also the sense that they were seemingly stagnating at the end of the Clé era, and then the pandemic shook everything up for everyone. It speaks for a healthy system that they managed to come back stronger, and to find their stride after going through a shock like that. (Le Sserafim's most recent song "Antifragile" is actually based on that concept, that healthy, sustainable systems aren't just resilient, but can use external shocks to their advantage.) Also, by the way, to stress why it isn't about the fact that someone left, but how they responded to it: SKZ managed to adjust to and work around Hyunjin's absence during his hiatus, they even won Kingdom one member short, and managed to slot him right back in when he returned. While I agree that culture is important, vital even, I would caution against seeing this as an East vs. West thing. The way their teamwork operates does draw from Korean culture (and I would guess Aussie culture, too, to an extent), but the key to building a successful and sustainable team is to find an adequate structure that works in the context you find yourself in. I'm from a culture (Swiss) that is both highly individualistic and competitive, as well as cooperative and democratic, where anyone who tries to rise too high abovd the rest will get cut down. We are a Western culture, but because of this attitude, I always found it easier than expected to connect with certain Asian cultures despite at times radically opposing cultural norms, and I have experienced culture shock while interacting with German culture in some aspects, even though they share the same language and we are a part of the broader Germanic cultural sphere. You can build excellent teams based on fierce internal competition, if everyone inside of the team agrees on and respects the rules of the competition, accepts the outcome whether they win or lose, and there are working boundaries in place to discourage and sanction cheating or other harmful behaviours. It is easier (I presume) to build harmonious teams out of an East Asian culture that puts so much emphasis on hierarchies and finding the proper place for everyone in a whole. But under the hood, e.g. Chinese culture is incredibly cutthroat and competitive. Korean culture actually is also driven by competition a lot and the rigidity of their social hierarchies can sometimes make it tricky to work towards an actual shared goal, not one imposed by the vanity of whoever sits at the top. You couldn't build a Western boy group by trying to make a carbon copy of SKZ, but you could take the lessons from them to build a functional team that fits your specific context. I should really try to make that video, because even more than external culture, what matters is team culture, and they obviously have that sorted out. It means that every member in the team agrees on the general goals of what they want to achieve, and some core principles of how they want to achieve them (like e.g. what to prioritise if you are faced with tough choices, especially if you have to decide quickly and the consequences will be felt either way. I suppose you could call this Jutdae in Korean, if I understand the concept correctly). They clearly do get trained in this and it sounds like there are some great people working behind the scenes at Div 1 in JYPE (though there have been issues within other divisions of JYPE, and no company of this size in a business like entertainment will be without shadows and dark sides, unfortunately.)

@@savagekingz1678 Hah, so much here that makes sense to me. One of my uncles had a bumper sticker for years that said "Question Authority". I loved that because it doesn't say to fight it or submit to it, it just says to question it--double check it. I find that the older I get, the more benefit I find from questioning my own assumptions. I will check and re-check that whichever idea frame I am using, it fits what I am actually finding. This way, whatever I am working with becomes more fluid. It is very very easy to become attached to a favorite theory, story, idea. It is so helpful to train oneself to step back and look for alternate possibilities. I am the sort of person who works best when I have a sort of story line to follow, as a kind of framework helping me to make sense out of what comes up. But it is essential when using those story lines, paradigms, whatever, to hold them loosely and be prepared to change them or let go of them entirely. I am a massage therapist, focusing on treatment of injuries, chronic pain, post surgical issues, etc. Human bodies are incredibly complex systems. Most massage therapists, physical therapists etc. are trained to think of bodies as primarily mechanical systems, as if we were made of gears and levers. Some aspects of the musculoskeletal system are sort of like that, but since much of the body is actually various types of liquids and semi-liquids, a lot of what happens inside a body is closer to fluid dynamics than to mechanics. Ever talked to a hydraulic engineer? or seen those pictures of the intricate swirls of colored smoke flowing over an airplane's wings? Fluid dynamics gets really really complex really really fast, and hydraulic systems often react completely opposite to the way you'd assume if you are thinking in terms of mechanics. And then you have chemical processes, changes in tissue due to injury or toxicity.....Assuming that straight line logic will always take you to the source of the issue is guaranteed to limit your effectiveness. Everything is connected to everything else, and you can't always track how or why one thing is affecting another. I've had sessions where a chronic foot issue was relieved when I worked on someone's cranium, migraines that released after pelvic work, back issues that were related to a hand, a knee, the jaw.... I have to start with some kinds of guesses, some framework, but those are mostly to give me something to test against. It's important to remember that it is just as useful to be able to say "No, that's not it, it must be something else" as to have that first theory be the right one. I've started many sessions with a beautiful, clear story line of what might be going on, that I had to discard two seconds after actually getting my hands on the tissue. But the thing is, I know that I like to find patterns and stories, so I've learned to be aware that I am doing that, and to hold them lightly. Thus they become part of the exploration, instead of a dead end. Re the Skz stuff--any given system has to fit the circumstances it is formed from, so a system formed in Korea, is going to betailored to make the best use of Korean cultural norms. Some aspects of that system might not work as well if applied to non-Korean groups without any adaptations. I also am wary of the translations. I've seen reactors doing lyrics analysis videos get super excited about a certain phrase, wringing huge amounts of meaning from it, and it's hard for me to watch, because that phrase they are making such a big deal out of, might just be a mistranslation, or an inadequate translation of a joke or pun that only makes sense in Korean.There is one Kdrama site that allows you to choose English subtitles in either UK or US versions, and the meanings often change depending on which version you use. In fact, sometimes each episode is translated by a different group, so when you watch the recap of the last episode, some scenes will be translated differently, to the point that the entire meaning of the scene might change. I speak a tiny bit of Spanish, and sometimes I watch Spanish language reactions, and what I can understand of the Spanish captions often gives yet another shade to the meaning. Yes, the trauma of a member leaving did seem like a catalyst. I think there are a lot of reasons. Do you remember when chaos theory was the next big thing? I often think of those types of traumatic events as "chaos triggers"--they disrupt a rigid or stagnant system and throw it into chaos, a random, directionless place where anything could happen, which then becomes an opportunity to re-organize into a direction which is better adapted to current circumstances. That's partly how we deal with scar tissue. Healthy tissue has a grain, with the tissue fibers organized along the lines of normal movement. Scar tissue is slapped down by the body as random strands meant to quickly fill in and reconnect a dangerous gap. Those random fibers don't bend or move the same as the healthy, organized tissue. Part of reducing scar tissue involves breaking it down in a controlled manner, and encouraging the new scar tissue fibers to align along the usual lines of force, like the original tissue. This didn't happen the first time because the body was more focused on getting something down fast. But disrupting the default pattern gives the body time to re-heal it in a more efficient way. Stray Kids was formed pretty fast, and they were pushed (or pushed themselves) to produce a lot of music and content, really fast, after debut. In some ways they were just scrambling to put together anything that sort of worked, and then those stop gaps hardened into how they did things, without a lot of time to shift things round to work better. The loss of a member was a disruption, the pandemic was a forced down time, and because their systemic health was overall high, they ended up breaking a stagnation and re-forming themselves into a much tighter, more effective group. (Well that metaphor makes sense to me, not sure if it does to anyone else). I think that fluidity you mentioned, the ability to deal with Hyunjin's absence, might have been built into the system after Woojin's departure. It is becoming more and more common that some stupid "scandal" can end an idol's career, regardless of its truth or lack thereof, as almost happened with Hyunjin, and as you mentioned, they dealt with that beautifully both working without him, and re-integrating him. By the way, I think it is very interesting how since Hyunjin's hiatus, all the members are being actively encouraged to get copyright credits of their own. After they became 8, they re-recorded almost all the original songs, thus closing the former member out of royalties. The more copyright credits any member has on any songs, the more protection they have against that happening again. Over and over I see certain group actions that work to protect the group as an entity, by protecting the individuals in the group. Not sure if this makes sense to you. It is a way of giving another perspective. I work alone (aside from my clients) and the systems I work with are not group systems, but body systems, so my perspective is definitely different than yours. But from what I can see, I do really admire the Stray Kids group dynamics. Have fun with all your future videos. I look forward to them.

🤭 Ich ha erscht woni dä Text vo dem Schlager uf Änglisch übersetzt ha, nomal richtig gmerkt wiä kitschig diä Lyrics würklich sind. 🤦 Aber das isch für mich halt scho d Mässlattä für "diä singed ja numä so bedütigslosi Liebesliäder". Cool, dass es i dr Schwiiz au Stays gid 😁