I'm a little confused about which series should I start first, Dune? Or A Memory Called Empire?

My top 3: The Sparrow (Maria Doria Russell), Dragon's Egg (Robert L. Forward), The Draco Tavern (Larry Niven) or substitute Gene Wolfe's stuff for any depending on how you count it.

Chasm City by Alistair Reynolds was amazing but probably a little more on the difficult side. Reynolds is definitely a more plot- focused author though, so don't expect much in the way of deep character development. We're here for big ideas and concepts, not ooey-gooey emotions.

Thanks!

I really liked all Hamilton series, I read them all. For me the slow pace was an advantage, maybe because English is not my mother tongue.

thanks for the video. I had hard time finishing the main Dune's book for neing to main caracter focused while Im enjoyer the Dune prophecy HBO serie for putting the clan's first like in a GOT way. I loved the first Hyperion book for the parallel with believing and how it shapes our whole vision of univers but Im experiencing hard time to finish the second one, I hope to finish it soon

Interesting thoughts, Jonathan. I preferred Light over The Quantum Thief because Harrison is an amazing writer of prose. I found Thief too confusing for too long, but was able to work out Light relatively quickly. Where does Blindsight come in your categorisation? Confusing or at least obscure on a moment by moment basis, but with a compelling plotline/story ...

Robert L. Forward's very fine "Dragon's Egg" was a bit confusing because I was not too familiar with how "hard" science fiction stories played out. I kept reading the book, not really sure how the two story lines would converge and when they did I was both delighted and amazed. One of my top ten favorite science fiction novels!!!

Cool video- i have really mixed feelings about confusing sci fi, with Book of the New Sun at the center of those feelings, especially after reading Urth of the New Sun.

I'm reading one at the moment; Timescape by Gregory Benford. The reason I find it confusing is partly because one minute it's set in the USA in 1963 and the next in England in 1998. The science parts are really interesting but the worst thing is that it's interspersed with the lives of people that I care absolutely nothing about and those parts read just like any old novel. I almost gave up but I'm over halfway through so it's got easier and I might as well finish it for the science, lol.

I have books like Dhalgren, Shadow, Gravity’s rainbow sitting on my shelf waiting for the right time. At the age of 43 I should be ready! It’s a tricky call to decide which books are so confusing to be alienating and make a budding SF fan seek more immediate pleasures (through tv movies and popcorn reads). On the other hand there needs to be just the right amount of envelope pushing to open that door for my challenging reads in the future. I remember one of my early SF reads was Neuromancer and I recall having to read pages over and over again. Reread it this year and it was a breeze as I had been acclimated to the full range of SF tropes and understood the impressionistic information withholding style. PKD has the right mix of cinematic style and surreal mind bending worlds for an adventurous reader. But he can go off the deep end too! It helps that some of the most adventurous SF films are based on his ideas so it’s a good gateway. If you can handle Total Recall, Blade Runner, or Minority Report go for it!

I have taught Breakfast of Champions several times. It is about literature as much as it is about America and being human. Definitely higher than a C. Brave for how he challenged expectations of novels. It is Postmodernism and Naturalism at the same time. It is his most cogent and harsh lashing of America.

Someone once told me, when I was much younger, that some books just need to be read later, that they're not for beginners, that they need to be read after you have some other books under your belt. I remember thinking it was condescending and gate-keeping. But it actually makes a lot of sense. Some books demand more from their readers, and you need to build some stamina and reading skills to get something enjoyable out of them.

I couldn't finish Neuromancer, one of the few books I have given up on! The book of the new sun was also hard going but I managed in the end after a long break after book 2.

There's a third way books can be confusing: lots of obscure references. I'm thinking specifically of the Illuminatus! trilogy. I read it as a teenager in the 80s and didn't understand half of what they were mentioning. Read it a second time in the 90s after college and understood more, although not everything. Should read it again now that the Internet and google are here to help. That's a comedy though and thus confusion is part of the point. Books are about communication. If the message is obscured or confused then that simply hinders communication and thus a weakness. (That's why I think the whole "Bible code" stuff is dumb. If God wanted to communicate with us He wouldn't hide his message in number theory games.)

Good essay, which I'll have to watch again and think some more about, because there is much food for thought in it. Like you, I'm OK with confusing worlds; indeed, I think that much of the fun of science fiction comes from immersion in confusing worlds, so there are far too many examples to list. Examples of confusing stories, on the other hand, are easier to list; and like you, I think, I don't get on with them. On M. John Harrison's "Light", I wrote in 2006: "I have depressingly little to say about it. It appeared almost random. It is impressive, in a way, but it never engaged me. I don't understand why it received so many rave reviews (which, plastered all over its cover, were why I bought it)." I think Christopher Priest's "The Affirmation" affected me similarly (in 2015), but I couldn't even be bothered writing any notes about it. This year, I was frustrated by two "literary" SF books: Gene Wolfe, "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" ("I finished this, but I only dimly understood it, and I got very little pleasure from it. I doubt if I will be reading anything more by this author, in spite of his great reputation."), and John Crowley, "Beasts" ("I can tell it's stylish and intense, but the style and intensity repel me. [...] The nearest I can come to having an opinion is that I was unable to empathise with any of the characters. [...] If it is true, then I think it was probably intentional on the author's part, because he doesn't want the reader to slip comfortably into a human way of viewing things, but instead to become a "beast", along with the characters.") But I couldn't stop thinking about Crowley's book, regardless, and I think I'm going to (try to) read more of his works.

I love enigmatic books with many layers and you peel with each reread. It challenges me and I love that. If you were confused by Snow Crash then you’ll be SUPER confused by Anathem haha

Really loved this video. Great idea

I'm a sci-fi reader but I've been reading Agatha Christi lately and her detective stories are confusing, on purpose, and it's good. Who done it almost never is who you think it must be. Confusion can be a good thing.

Great video Jonathan I agree that the Quantum Thief was confusing, I didn't enjoy that one but Non-Stop and Annihilation I didn't think were confusing at all loved them

I'd recommend John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar", published in 1968. (It won the Hugo in 1969.) Much of the story is told through news reports, and it was only at the end of the book that I started to understand what was going on. And as soon as I finished it, I read it again so that it would make sense. It's been almost 50 years since I read it (1976 or '77, IIRC), and it still has an impact.

10/10 background 😂 It's a masterpiece.

Interesting question! For me it depends just how 'hard' the science is rather than not being given the whole picture - Book Of The New Sun still has a surface level story with enjoyable prose whereas something like Blindsight made me work to understand all the concepts, I enjoyed both but if the science in Blindsight had got any harder it might have affected my enjoyment...I'm intimidated by Greg Egan books for this reason; whereas I don't mind being placed in a weird environment with a lot of mystery such as Annihilation - not understanding everything was part of what made that book so good. Speaking of confusing...I have read quite a few Phillip K Dick novels and although I remember enjoying them all, I would struggle to tell you what actually happened in any of them, so make of that what you will!

have you read Gravity’s Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

I do like to give my brain a good work out. Can be very satisfying...unless it's not. Whether there's a climactic payoff at the end or encroaching confusion, I want it to be worth my while. Bad writing doesn't cut it. A hero that says "Follow me, I have an idea" and then performs random acts for half the book before revealing that he'd actually just finished reading a book on 3rd cent. Andean funerary vases doesn't cut it. Also: I really LOVED that background. But I get other people not liking it too. Reminds me of a Airbnb I stayed in that had a giant optical illusion on my bedroom wall that made me think my eyesight was going bad. I'm sure some people will love it. I kinda liked it when I was purposely looking at it.

I just read Ubik, what an amazing ride of a novel! Disorientating and mind-boggling, for sure.

Vurt was a favorite among my friends in high school, but I haven’t read any of Jeff Noon’s later books. I should get on that in 2025. I also enjoyed Grant Naylor’s Better Than Life, about people trapped in (or addicts of) a virtual reality simulation. These are much less serious books. Very light-hearted and funny, like Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency. Fun times for a lost weekend. 😺✌️

and you didn't mention greg egan once!

I really need to finish the Book of the New Sun series... well, at least the four I bought. It just... it keeps going. And makes me feel like I'm bad at world building when I read it.

Great topic Jonathan! More often than not, confusing books just drive me away lol.

There is a term in writing: 'colourless green ideas sleep furiously'. It is nonsense as a sentence and filled with contradictions but is grammatically correct. It's used to illustrate literature that is intentionally confusing. Stross's Accelerando is the perfect example. My review on Hardcover ended with this sentence. "About two thirds the way through I suddenly thought, "This is one giant piss-take. He's filling the story with all this crazy stuff and all the while sitting there with a smirk thinking, 'See, I'm still doing it to you'." There are books that it pays to check with Wikipedia or somewhere if you get lost too early. Book of the New Sun, Quantum Thief, Accelerando, don't mind if you've chased up a spoiler or two. It's better than walking away from the book.

Confusing books can be entertaining, but it might be a good idea for readers who are new to the genre to start off with slightly simpler reads, before tackling those brain-busters in Hard SF - & others with elaborate plots..... The SF stories of Ray Bradbury would be a great place to start - at least it was for me. Frank Herbert's books were good as well ( he wrote many aside from the Dune series, & they were very readable ) Then when the reader gets a feel for the genre, he can take on some of my hard SF favorites like Greg Egan, Stephen Baxter, Gregory Benford, J.G. Ballard, & others like them.....................

That background messes with my eyes lol.

I do love a weird, confusing story. They often keep my mind engaged. Shout out to Annihilation. 🐊 I'm halfway through Absolution and the reader is beginning to have a clue about the origin of Area X, but I think if haven't enjoyed the prose and unsettling atmosphere of these books, it would be difficult to make it through some 1000 pages or so. I'll be searching for my next confusing read soon.

Some of my favorite sci fi is confusing. Solaris, Southern Reach, Neuromancer, A Scanner Darkly-these are all amazing. Author skill goes a long way cause the story still needs to make sense. A Clockwork Orange can be confusing due to the linguistics but it all still makes sense.

Any SF worth reading should always be at least a bit confusing. The withholding of information like in Non-Stop is crucial because it means we 'break through' at the same time as the characters do as we learn the truth of their world. Likewise in Inverted World; though I was less keen on that novel due to the characterisation rather than the big reveal. PKD's the Man in the High Castle does this brilliantly too.

I like a little bit of mystery but dislike being very confused. I loved Vurt but didn’t think Light was as bad as u seemed to think. Although there was really nothing new in it and the story may not have gone much of anywhere there were still many interesting characters and scenes so I might give it a B or at least a B-. I wasn’t that confused by snow Crash though as I’ve said before it was a little too light hearted for my taste. Don’t like unreliable narrators much either. Recently read a suspense (not sci-fi) book called I’m thinking of ending Things which got mixed reviews but the narrator turned out not only to be unreliable but totally FICTIONAL and by the time the story went completely off the rails I was almost ready to end things myself haha! Be well and have a Merry Xmas.⚛️❤

Not sure if I'd describe Non-Stop as confusing but first time readers sure get a delightful surprise. Unless they read the American version which has a different title and cover that give the game away completely before the reader even begins

The strange and confusing is a key element that makes Sci Fi. I am reading Dune Massiah and the best part is the parade of people form places wie don't fully know reference skills and items we don't understand. Victor Pelevin's S.N.U.F>F is a very strange world which is hard to understand,

The greatest duo ever is peanut butter and jelly.

36 points

I was shocked at how many (all but two) of these books I had read - although I didn't remember what some of them were about! I agreed with the review/description of all of those I remembered EXCEPT Enders Game as I didn't like that book much. I reread Ringworld (and series) recently starting with prequel The Protector and IMHO Ringworld is starting to show it's age.

Additional category: Beyond Expert: The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe.

What's the average publishing age of your reccs? I know that Contact is 1985. Is that the furthest back you go....?

Your review is timely for me. Having recently read Sirens and Breakfast I was wondering how to proceed. I feel an affinity with Mr. Vonnegut as his point of view reinforces my own on occasion (craziness included). For some strange reason, I have developed the urge to change his name to Kurt Von Negut. I wonder if he would mind? Thank you for a great review.

I must disagree about Hamilton. After the Commonwealth, I read his entire catalog.

I read Titan and the trilogy that it starts (followed by Wizard and Demon) ages ago, and AFAIR your synopsis spoils a major plot point.

I've only truly been consistently reading sci-fi these past 18 months, or so. But the best mind-trip I've read so far has to be "Ubik".

I just started Peter F Hamilton's newest duology with Exodus. Need to go back and read the Commonwealth duology eventually ...

May I suggest : The Perihelion Duology by D M Wozniak (2018). It comes in single volume containing the books 'The Perihelion' and 'An Obliquity'. Excellent duology housed together in one big book (748 pages). Worth a look!