@@ctrlaltrees Ay I appreciate you. In their defense I’m like a good bit younger than Quake itself so trying to get all my stuff together with these games was a fun challenge for me that I could’ve done better if I made the video twice as long lol.

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3bMXo1rq8-pj5Isi=gWE9K6p2d7Tzz0Nu

I actually really enjoyed Quake Champions when I played recently to get footage for this vid. It's a good game and actually kinda easy to adjust to aside from the garbage about unlocking the characters and their abilities which I think is kinda annoying.

I do believe in the idea that good things can be born of technical limitations. Even if Id's intent isn't why something in Quake is the way it is, that doesn't negate the effectiveness of it? I like how it's condensed, whether intentional or not. This isn't really a video meant to tackle why Quake is better than Doom or something like a Sequelitis, simply to appreciate Quake for what it is with some light comparisons to Doom at best. I still think it's easier to get lost in Doom than Quake, but I do agree that distinct areas were more prevalent in Doom. Bigger levels makes it easier to get lost in general, but I admit I hyperbolized the maze aspect of Doom. It's really not that bad once you get adjusted, I just think Quake's verticality makes adjusting to that nowadays easier. If I say Quake does something more (or better) like with the keys, that doesn't mean Doom didn't do it at all. It's refining versus inventing. Also, it is just my opinion. I love both games.

And I do like the soundtrack of Doom. There are many examples in it that are effective at matching the feel of levels. That was just an example of one that didn't work for me. I don't have to say I dislike Doom to say I like the direction Quake was going with the Doom formula. Both are exceptional games. I appreciate your time leaving the comment, it's given me a lot to think about with my biases and understanding that I'm coming to the games as an infant basically. But I disagree with what you assume about me just needing clicks or implying that I'm grifting or something.

​@@blunderly First, I want to thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am surprised KZbin didn't delete my comment, and I'm happy it didn't. I appreciate your perspective. And I'm sorry if my comment offended you personally in any way. Contrary to what my comments may have sounded like, I wasn't trying to imply or assume that you said what you said for clicks, just that the way it came across, which really does seem like a list of things that Quake did well and DOOM didn't, got engagement, and that's why KZbin recommended it to me. I'm happy to hear you like both. That didn't come across in the video, but, as I said, this is the first video of yours I've seen. Maybe you shared your opinion of DOOM in another video, or videos. I don't have that context, and this video made it seem like you were upset with the praise that DOOM received and didn't think it deserved it, while Quake did. I disagreed, so I shared my view. I more than agree that good can come of technical limitations. It wasn't idly that I said, "Creativity isn't necessarily in what you add, but in what you do within constraints." Constraints and limitations are what creativity needs. I do agree that Quake did well within the limitations of level size. My biggest disappointments with Quake (speaking as someone who waited patiently for its release and then stormed the local software stores for the shareware CD) was in how it lacked any cohesion, and played like Id didn't learn anything from the successes and failures of DOOM. It felt like 60% of what made DOOM great, and then Id figured the 3D paint job made up for the rest. Maybe a slightly unfair modern parallel with help illustrate how it felt in 1996, but if DOOM was Lord of the Rings, Quake was The Hobbit. They had too much success with DOOM and it got to their heads. Quake was a mess. I was a teenager when I formed that opinion and still carry it to this day. To be honest, I still consider Quake a poor game in comparison. However, and this may cause further controversy, I think Quake is the best of the trilogy. (I say trilogy because Id made 1-3. Quake 4 was made by Raven. I honestly really like Quake 4. But it's not an Id game, so I'm not comparing it here.) Quake 2 was much too clunky, and too ambitious for my tastes. (I just played the full game again last month, with all its expansions, in the remaster. By the end, I was really just counting down the levels until I could be done and move on with my life.) And I honestly hated Quake 3. This is with the context for the mid to late 90s when Id was no longer the only kid on the FPS block. Games like Blood, Half-Life, and Unreal Tournament far surpassed Id's work by the time Quake 3 came out. I think the tech of Quake really kept it alive, while the design did not. (I'm specifically referring to the disjointed nature of the sci-fi and Lovecraftian themes. The game didn't know what it wanted to be because no one was taking charge of the overall design. Map makers just did whatever they wanted. Some liked tech bases and slipgates. Some liked horror. And then they slapped everything together and called it a game.) And I know you'll disagree with me. That's fine. We don't need to agree. I still have fun with it, but I think it could have been so much more than it was. That said, there are some areas where Quake absolutely excelled. I think that the physics, multiplayer, WASD + mouselook, modding, and 3D acceleration in Quake (noting that VQuake and GLQuake were not available upon release) really did a lot for FPS as a genre and gaming as a whole. Much of the world doesn't appreciate how influential these aspects were. (I will note that DOOM created deathmatch, supported WASD + mouse from release, and was built with mod support. But each of these were more limited. And Quake did more than a slight bump up in each of these.) Rocket jumping and bunny hopping are huge. Not an intentional design decision, but great for the feel and free-form nature of movement (and exploiting these movement mechanics did a lot to popularize speed-running on the web). Fast and smooth 16 player online multiplayer was huge. (Thank you, QuakeWorld.) Defining our modern WASD + mouselook first-person control scheme was huge. (Although, to be fair, that came from deathmatch players sharing their control schemes. Quake didn't have any option in the menus to enable mouselook. That had to be done with console commands and cfg file tweaks.) Having deep support for modding basically everything about the game was huge. Assets could already be changed in DOOM, but QuakeC allowed modders to change the very nature of the game completely. And the mods created new deathmatch modes, new genres, new full games, and launched many careers. Being among the first games to support 3D acceleration cards really did a lot to legitimize the hardware, and having a killer app made it more financially viable to mass produce. Back then, 3D accelerators were add-on cards. You had a video card for 2D. You had to buy a separate accelerator card (or cards) for 3D. And it didn't make sense why you would do that until there were games to support it. I honestly love the influence Quake has had on modern gaming. I will never diminish that. And I still have fun with the game. I especially liked the Dimensions of the Machine add-on that Machine Games did for the remaster. But in terms of design, I still think DOOM is a superior game. So this video pushed a lot of buttons for me in a negative way. I appreciate that you took the time to read and respond to my thoughts. This is definitely my own opinion. And I really don't know many who share it, if anyone. But I appreciate talking about these games. They still mean a lot to me. And I appreciate being able to discuss them thoughtfully with others. So thank you. I also didn't notice when I first watched this video how small your channel is. Who says The Algorithm doesn't recommend small channels? Congrats on breaking 1000 subs! I hope you have more success!

In hindsight, I feel bad about using that LotR/Hobbit analogy without context as I did. I feel that I need to say I actually like The Hobbit trilogy, while most people don't. It's not nearly as good as LotR, but I still enjoy it. So when I compare the two, I'm comparing them based on how I feel about them, not how others feel. Some people loath The Hobbit. And if you do, that's not what I meant by comparing DOOM and Quake. I only wanted to illustrate that Id came off a high and let it get to their heads. And Quake isn't as good as it could have been because of it.

I’m not offended by your comments, I appreciate them! I upload videos to talk about games like this so it’s fun for me and thanks for taking time out of your day to watch and analyze my vid. Just wanted to clarify my intent mostly. To be honest I’ve only made like two videos discussing games like this so I’m still learning and Id Software history is difficult to tackle so I definitely can concede on some of your points. I agree Id let a lot get to their heads, Quake is a messy game and there’s a reason Id sort of fell apart after it. It’s why I left the video off mentioning how it has a lot of untapped potential so I’m definitely with you on how it’s thematically jumbled. Doom is the more refined experience and most people will probably agree with that. Thanks again for the discussion and the well wishes! I hate how KZbin is with comments, glad it didn’t get rid of yours.

There are similarities, I don't think anyone would argue that they occupy a similar space. But there is a distinct feel to it, especially if you're comparing the "firsts" of each franchise.

@@BillyBlazeTheKeenest Appreciate you!

Thanks! True I have tons of what-if's with the Quake franchise.

@@Schraiber you get me

lmao I can see it

@@toninhosoldierhelmet4033 Yeah I have a feeling that Id and Bethesda don’t want to share the market with Quake since they’ve gone all in on the Doom franchise. Or they’ll keep it forever multiplayer.

I agree 100%. there's a satisfaction in building that routine.

I disagree, hard to see Quake being overshadowed by Duke considering Quake's multiplayer. But the market was more saturated than when Id released Doom.

@@blunderly Duke had own multiplayer as well, not so incredible as quake, but had it. And worked perfectly on 486@100Mhz and higher, while quake required Pentium 100MHz to play at reasonable framerate for multiplayer. Ofc, we played at 10-15 fps on 486, but experience are far from perfect ).

that sounds good! will look into it

I feel it's more likely that they borrowed elements from each other's franchises.

tried getting the mark v port before id remastered the game, and I am not joking when I say there was no information on how to install the port

ha I wouldn't phrase it like that myself but ty!

hey thanks! would love to see what yours was sometime

@@blunderly haha, youre so awesome! Jax49- *Quake 1 - E1M1 Pacifist (October 21 2021)* Jax49Gameplay- *Im gonna slap Shub-Niggurath!* It's nothing really, but do i love creating 'for myself'

@@Jax49 I dig it! I like the branding you got on it. Videos should be made for yourself first so that's a good mindset.

@@blunderly Holy shi- you actually did it, WOW what an honor ♥ Thanks a lot! Appericiate it

Yeah the other changes nightmare makes from hard I actually like such as flinching less, I mainly mentioned the fast attacks because it's the most noticeable and honestly not the best. Good to know those details about copper!

I need to try that, I've heard a couple things here and there but had no idea there was a mod!

@@MarioVelezBThinkin Haha ikr it’s tough, hopefully will change but I’ve learned it’s best not to make promises to anyone but yourself! Thanks!

I don't think Quake needs a map to navigate it. Shit is good at conveyance with clever enemy placements, portals and lifts directing your attention. There are obvious flaws in it considering diff people designed diff levels and some are worse than others. I think getting lost is a little more baked into Doom than you're letting on, which is the point of the design of some areas of levels. I think the vore's projectile usually makes it feel like it's my fault if I ate it. The level design does teach a lot to the player, and I was never bothered by spending more time taking down enemies since there is a lot of moving and avoiding projectiles that makes it not feel dull. The soundtrack does not feel same-y, unless by same-y you mean consistent. I think it enhances the atmosphere. Doom does have parts of levels that showcase a key ahead of time, but like you said it was less often than Quake so of course I'd prefer that more often? You might just not like Quake, which is fine, but you seem to be trying really hard to avoid giving the game any credit whatsoever.

@@blunderly I can give Quake's credit, I just don't think your points is really working. And your additional comment is basically saying "You wrong" for every topic I've pointed out. Credit where credits do, but downsides of the game can't be easily overlooked. And I know, I've played and somewhat enjoyed Quake, wanted to even try out expantions, but they didn't lauch. "baked into Doom" that's...sounds surprisingly racist. Especially from the guy who got stuck on a 3 minute area, like c'mon. Maybe you've just played Quake a billion times and remember all the passages, but it doesn't mean they are good at navigating player. "Never bothered to take down enemies" good for you, doesn't really make it a great design, especially when you are low on anything but shells. Also, using ONLY the enemies that takes 4 Double-barrell blasts throughout most levels just get's tidious. Soundtrack -- you've completely missed my point. Quake's soundtrack adds ONLY to the atmosphere. But it's not really a great music by itself, nor is it adds any fits different themes all that well. Doom's soundtrack did a much better job at that.

@@aanproduction1516 Racist??

@@blunderly yeah, I know, sounds dumb. But for some reason it kinda does sounds racist.

Agreeeddd

I thought it was just super nailgun lol good to know. But yes there's something so satisfying about the shotgun, especially the double barrel. It becomes very rhythmic when you build a general idea of how many shots it'll take to down an enemy too.

like how high level players use the shotgun's rhythm to time grenade jumps

I know right that's how I felt when I saw the trailer too. It's kind of a shame because I'm not really a fan of Doom's narrative direction recently (I know people don't usually care about it but still). It's crazy how much impact Quake had on game development, even to this day.

Yeah I definitely enjoyed the fast shooting mobs, even if there's arguments on which is easier it's still hard and really fun. There are some parts where I think the fast shooting doesn't work like when an ogre is placed at a lower plane than you, but some situations make them superrrr deadly.

Hey yeah I appreciate that! I dread long intros usually.

@@arkgaharandan5881 I actually do agree that I think the expansions were really good and I had more fun with them. It’s fair for that stuff to bother you, I just like the tension caused by the claustrophobic design.

@@user-wy4sy2re8c IM SORRY I DIDNT KNOW

@@blunderly Just like you didn't know they have 600 health. And people spend ~12 rockets on them bastards not understanding why they run out so quickly nor why they're so resistant to rockets. You should only use rockets on Shamblers as a last resort. Or just start axing them questions.

It's ironic that the creator of a video about how well Quake teaches its mechanics didn't know about the Shambler's explosive resistance, which is hinted at in the manual and otherwise completely opaque. To be fair to them though, that's pretty much the only major mechanic that isn't easy to understand from gameplay alone - there's also the fact that you still take armour damage when using the pentagram of protection, and a bug that causes dogs/fiends/spawns to instakill you if they land on your head, but that's about it.

@@SleeperJohns arcane dimensions has a genius fix for this by making the explosion look like a puff of dirt so it's visually obvious it's not working so well

​@@blunderly​​ to be fair you could just play it on console and have a better time no trust me the deals for Quake generous. Not to mention if you have a PS5 or new Xbox ("I can't be bothered in telling what type of name Xbox has for their consoles") they can be integrated to keyboard.

I'd be totally fine with it being unfair, I think the issue is that it's actually easier and the 50 hp cut in the remaster is a very bandaid approach that doesn't alleviate the issues created by messing with the base health pool. I didn't know how the nightmare worked in those games, that does sound fun.

I can't even begin to pronounce that one lmao

@blunderly Shub-Niggurath is taken directly from one of H.P. Lovecraft's stories, by the way. The whole aesthetic of Quake with all those castles and otherworldly dimensions is considered Lovecraftian.

​@@blunderlyni-ar-lah-tho-tep

Yessss I wish I mentioned this in the video lol

Agreed! And that sounds super good, been using Quakespasm so it sounds like a nice jump.

Doesn't work very well with netquake servers though..

@@Preinstallable Isn't ezquake the port for multiplayer?

Does Ironwail support Vulkan rendering?

@@tehFozzeY ezquake is a QuakeWorld port, not a netquake one

damn I didn’t even know about that

@@PickleAndPearBTBM Hey thank you so much!!

Fair but still a bad final boss and name

@@blunderly it is a shitty boss, but that's just how it's named. Sandy Petersen is a big Lovecraft fan and his passion definitely seeps into Quake

@@cooler_carpington Yeah for sure and I think Quake overall is the better for that influence.

can't believe he named an elder god after his cat

@@user-wy4sy2re8c People who know: 💀