10 Differences Between CNC Spindles & Routers (I Use Both)

Going over the differences of a spindle and a palm router on your hobby cnc machine.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:16 1
01:06 2
01:46 3
02:10 4
03:00 5
03:57 6
04:25 7
05:34 8
06:08 9
08:16 10
10:34 Discounts
11:06 KZbin Money

[@markhamilton8765]

This was an excellent explainer - I learned a lot. Thank you for the detailed work you put into crafting this video.

[@garrydye2394]

I will add that my router shakes the entire house in terms of noise. It is light years louder than my dust collector. I so wish I would have spent the extra money and got the spindle upgrade when I bought my shopsabre CNC. I 'm upgrading now with a Chinese spindle and just now got it delivered...solely for the noise reduction. If you buy a CNC....trust me...go with the Spindle. The router will drive you absolutely insane after a while, especially if you have your set up in the garage and you have a wife and/or kids. I literally use my CNC maybe 5% as much as I would like to because I do want want to fire it up and have to listen to that router screaming away for hours and hours in the house to do a single project.

[@tallskinnygeek]

Thin surfaces (3/4 plywood, most kinds of tables, etc) can amplify the noise of machines running on them. Adding pavers as an isolation layer can help significantly with this. Try running the machine on a concrete floor to see if this is your issue.

[@MachinedInWood]

@@tallskinnygeekthis is a good point. I have one machine that has 10 concrete blocks attached to it to add mass. It really helps a lot. Not under it, mind you - attached to it. I designed the frame to allow me to slide blocks into it so they actually weigh the machine down to the floor and make the entire thing harder to shake. I would never, ever even consider using a router instead of a spindle. My machines go all day long, almost every day.

[@jameshenderson3247]

Love all of your content. I just replaced my journeyman with a Makita. Now I have an elite journeyman with stiffy, z-20 slider, and PwnCNC 220 water cooled spindle with a cw3000 chiller. The differences are worth every dollar. No more screaming router with a chattering end mill. I cut my G.O.A.T. Spoil board with a 3/8 ‘‘em on a 1/2” shank at 21000 rpm’s and 100 IPM - cut that mdf like butter. I am using a PwnCNC V9 dust boot which sucks really well. I like the hose behind the spindle so I can see what’s happening. I have a Harvey G700 which runs around 70 db at 60% which is what I need for sufficient suction.

[@rhalfik]

What a great summary! All that info in one place.

[@tayseersharief3787]

Highly appreciate your video, you pretty much answered all the questions here. Thank you!

[@NWGR]

Thanks for the comparison Hamilton, very informative and much appreciated. Back when amazon had the makita routers for $73 I grabbed three of them and sold the fixed bases to make them even cheaper. A spindle is in the cards for me sometime down the line, but seeing how much you did with "just" the makita has given me the confidence to know I'll be fine with those for quite a while as I get my CNC side hustle up and running. Thanks for all your CNC content!

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Yep! Compact routers are fine for most applications!

[@dronefootage2778]

great video, i learned a lot, which is rare these days on youtube

[@billnoname8093]

thanks, very helpful explanation. My machine is getting put together now, once I really learn I'll goto a spindle since speed will matter for business.

[@dirkwhoward]

I appreciate the insight on the water cooled spindle. I think that the possible improvement on dust collection could be worth the hassle of setting up the cooling.

[@T0tenkampf]

yeah i didn't realize that either although the expensive CNCDepot spindles are passively air cooled so maybe the best of both worlds if you have an extra 3 grand

[@GotCamel]

Why am I blowing on my phone while watching these cuts?!?

[@bearsstuff]

One of the interesting metrics at the end of the year to see is if your editing time goes down due to knowledge, experience, etc. Or even if the amount of time it takes you to film, can you do your videos in fewer takes? Definitely along for the ride.

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Yeah it all kind of depends on the video I'm making. This one was made with a bunch of old footage that I could use to supplement the video with. Its much different for filming and editing when I'm doing a complete new project. Ups and downs to each, though

[@RoboArc]

Glad I took some desgine ideas from that same cnc before I desgined my own 3d printed cnc. Spindle is where it's at though. 1.5kw 110v spindles are pretty good and come in ER20 collets. Definitely enough for most aluminum milling. 500 watt spindle is like 100$ and will get you into aluminum. You won't be taking more than a 3mm cut, but fr thats a lot anywyas for a hobby machine.

[@rharris22222]

Yeah, what NW said. Great to hear how well you did using a router-based cnc, and how you graduated to a professional grade spindle as your business grew. I am amazed at how much information you packed into that speech without becoming either boring or unintelligible. If you decide to change careers I recommend infomercial pitchman or rap star! 😂

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

lol thanks thats kind!

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Best Sellers File Pack: www.cncyalater.com/products/best-sellers-market-master-mega-file-pack Plug & Play Spindle: pwncnc.com/products/spindle?ref=HD Use Code: HAMILTON for 5% OFF!

[@stevecarlisle3323]

Interesting, as there are a few European spindles like KRESS brand, consumer power tool motors. The noise from the router is caused by the Fan/blower designed to keep it kool, and keep the wood dust out. And also there are companys that offer ATC for the ends of these consumer power tool motors

[@bootstrappyworkshop8367]

FYI, if you step up to the 2-1/4HP router from Makita instead of the 1-1/4HP you can use the Musclechuck quick change collet system. Makes changing bits an absolute dream compared to the two wrenches and you can still go up to 1/2in bits. I have both, and very soon I will be buying an FM30 ATC from CNC Depot.

[@T0tenkampf]

Better put your order in now, lead time on the FM series is pretty long the last time I looked. That's the way I want to go too.

[@kevinwillis6707]

its easy to sound insulate a dust collector using an enclosure,or putting your dust collector outside in its own shed, so you always get a quieter sound when its running.

[@T0tenkampf]

make the shed big enough for your compressor too, so annoying.

[@cavedog1279]

Hi Hamilton, thanks for the great content you always put out. I want to get into CNC as a hobby (and maybe a small side business) and your videos have been immensely helpful. If money is not an issue, would you still recommend the onefinity?

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Thanks for the kind words! I would for sure recommend the onefinity. Although the only CNC machines that I've personally operated are made by Onefinity. Also- I bought my first X-50 Journeyman with knowing nothing at all about CNC machines. I think CNC machines are just like any other tool- success and enjoyment only come from having a passion (and time) to learn how to use it.

[@cavedog1279]

@@HamiltonDilbeck I've been using a CNC plasma table at work (I think we have vcarve software?) for a few years, and have been doing 3d printing at home for about 6 years. Also have been a design engineer for 12 years, so it seems like a great hobby to pursue. Only problem with Onefinity is their lead times are like 4 months! I watch a lot of CnC channels and your channel is my favorite - you make straight-forward, easy to digest content with great information and don't try to sugar coat anything. Again, thanks so much for taking the time to make these videos, I know it's a lot of work.

[@djfirestormx]

My dust collector is 1/3 the noise of the Makita on setting 3 (17000 rmp)

[@formula4sp33d]

I used a chinese 6040 cnc that included a water cooled spindle, I used it daily for 4 years, and the thing just worked , it held up to thousands if bit changes

[@user-tf1oo9rj6u]

I've had my 6040 for over 10 years, still running that same water cooled spindle. I've had a few bad crashes that have given it a little more growl. When it dies, I'll probably go size up, just for a little better experience when pushing the limits (aka trying to cut steel) FYI, flood coolant is a game changer. I made mine with a fountain pump and rubbermade tote. I got an alu sign from the scap yard and mounted thin 1" alu angle on it to make it a coolant tray, slightly tilted and the low end funnels to a pour spot using the alu angle. For a cheap enclosure box, I got the white foam that has the silver plastic on one side. It's light, easy to cut/shape, and you can tape the whole thing together. I left the front piece separate, so I only take the whole box off for maintenance or oversize objects. I was given the snap-lock nozzle for free, but when I was broke before that, I used a tube with a coat hanger strapped to it. I was very happy to get the proper nozzle, as it is much easier to point where you want it and have it stay aimed there.

[@QAYWSXEDCCXYDSAEWQ]

An excellent video; heard the term router and spindle and initially thought they were a different name for the same thing... An unanswered question I have yet to find an answer is compatibility with the software? Does a Shapeoko app for example support "other" spindles? Does fusion360 for example support spindles at all?

[@JasonPeltier]

I purchased the PwnCNC 220v water-cooled during their sale a few weeks ago. Still need to "purchase" the CNC... and wait a few months for delivery. Gotta say, I was intrigued with the 1F Elite Foreman by the videos that Two Moose Design put out. But your videos sealed the deal. There's a lot of new tech in this machine that is amazing.

[@T0tenkampf]

Did you buy their VFD too? WHo are the makers on it or both? Not all Chinese spindles are the same and I hate it when they dont list mfg.

[@tinylittleboy]

Very informative breakdown! I’m so curious what the dark material is that you’re cutting in these clips, is it Valchromat or something? Thanks!

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Thanks! Its a material called "Richlite", its pretty cool stuff!

[@Kudennnnnnn]

Hello Hamilton Dilbeck. May I ask if Makita router could make a longrun 3d relief carving?

[@MG-vo7is]

Great info.

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Thanks!

[@mrmillmill]

Do you run metal work regularly on your pnw spindle? I want to mill metal.

[@shinsoku9128]

What would you recommend for soft metal cutting on a small desktop CNC like an 3030 PROVer MAX from Genmitsu (I am currently considering to buy one)? I live in an apartment and don't have a workshop, so noise, space, and cleanliness are factors for me to consider. And yes, price is an issue for me. However, I don't want to use dust collection but rather depend on an enclosure (if you have any recommendations for that, I would be very grateful if you told me :] ). So, noise is almost as big of an issue as dust getting into my apartment. Therefore, and considering that a "cheap" spindle would cut better than a router and definitely better than the 300W spindle it comes with and that it would be considerably quieter, I am considering to go down this path. I am new to CNC but not new to diy hobby stuff (I am very comfortable modding 3D printers, soldering, wiring etc.), so I am down to invest time if that means saving money (I can't do woodworking in my apartment to build an enclosure for the cnc). Sorry for the long message. Thank you for your content, it is very helpful to me :). I don't expect you to see, read or answer to this message, but if you did, that would mean and help me out a lot. Have a beautiful day :)

[@ToddWedlake]

thanks.. great video.. it's pronounced POWN-CNC 🙂

[@timthomas9105]

Noise pollution in a shop environment can be supplemented by placing a couple noisy pieces outside. They may need to be placed in a cage, wall cabinet, insulated or a cooling fan. I've seen air compressors and dust collection systems both placed outside in cabinets that have sound baffles on all of the surfaces. rubber spring foundation lifters can also eliminate vibrations through the floor.

[@strandyt6916]

I soundproofed my dust collection. If you want to do it right you need to do sound clips, hat channel decoupled from the ceilings, walls, layer two sheets of 5/8 drywall sandwiched with mass loaded vinyl, seal your door, use green glue etc. There simply isn’t any other way to properly soundproof. In terms of noise, I’m quite sure if most saw the setup I run they would be absolutely baffled. I come from a different field/ hobby not affiliated with woodworking and let’s just say I haven’t seen a single dust collection system in the woodworking industry that isn’t inferior. Harvey at least has the right idea. Housing an obscenely loud blower or series of blowers, inside a cyclone filter and blowing air downwards and around a cyclone is not an efficient method, period. In massive shops, it may be the most convenient, but it’s far from ideal. I have a soundproof closet for my DC for my Axiom Elite CNC , 3HP PCS, Planer, small tool ports etc and I can literally hear myself whisper in my shop when it’s running full speed. The suction from my dust boot will grab the surface of a 4”X24”X 1” walnut board and hold it in place like it’s a piece of paper. Zero dust or chips on my spoil board or surrounding areas. It runs off of 120v and is variable speed. I’m not a “KZbinr content guy” but perhaps I’ll do a video at some point. I almost feel bad for the guys using shop vacs and 80-120 db dust collectors, especially in a CNC setting where it’s running for hours. Couldn’t imagine.

[@boydnelson2280]

The max speed of a normal spindle is about 24000rpm vs the router is about 32000. when using very small dia bits or a tapered carving bits that have a small tip high rpm makes a difference., Some CNC machines have air spindle adaptors that run at 60000 rpm. Router motors are universal motors, meaning they can run off ac or dc. Running the router on DC will provide improved torque performance - however you have to remove any stock speed controller. I normally use a water cooled spindle, but I can also setup with 3 routers with different bits and change the whole router very quickly rather than mess with a collet..

[@user-tf1oo9rj6u]

My understanding is that DC motors achieve slow speed by reducing voltage, therefore they lose power/get weaker at slower speed. Assuming it's being driven by a vfd, an AC motor has it's speed set by the frequency, but the vfd can do that frequency at full voltage, so the amperage and power drop off much less. A cheap hardware store router (or Dremel) isn't doing that. I'm not sure what they are doing, but I'd expect them to lose a lot of power at low speed. I've actually used my cnc router as a polishing station, by putting a 3" or 4" polishing wheel on the spindle. It worked well, as I could set a low speed and the water cooling loop meant it didn't overheat like a handtool. But it was very not worth the hassle of cleaning up red rouge from my cnc machine. If I ever do that again, I'll cover and tape everything off thoroughly beforehand.

[@Festivejelly]

What do people actually make with these large CNC. Id always assumed people were using them to cut metal things.

[@LarsWorkShop]

I would like to know which spindle you use. Your link opens up a page with a lot of options. I am looking at the 2.2kw 220v ER20 80mm 2-pole 400hz water cooled, because the price difference is minimal.. Also Motor Cooling would be Water, but since you are recommending the silicone tubing, buying the clear tubing would not make sense, right? and the Kool connectors, right? CNC Controller I am thinking from watching your videos the Onefinity Masso is the proper one to choose, right?

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Yes you are correct, the one you mention is what I use. Reach out to them and ask about the silicon tubing. They might have switched to that now

[@LarsWorkShop]

@@HamiltonDilbeck Thanks for replying. I hope to get this set up soon.

[@brittnyfolvik5476]

​@@HamiltonDilbeckI have the exact same question! But also is there a reason you didn't purchase the Kool connectors and Silicone tubing with the Spindle product ?? Thanks

[@jimberg98]

Spindles come in a lot of different sizes. Which spindle are you referring to? That giant one on your machine?

[@iwannaapple7190]

What would be your thoughts on a spindle that supposedly has upgraded bearings for specific cnc use like the open builds er-11 router and/or the Carbide ER-11 Compact Router? I'm a weekend warrior and I don't really want to buy an $850 router but I will if I have to and your opinion or anyone else's opinion from experiance would be a great help.

[@user-tf1oo9rj6u]

I've watched several breakdown videos, and my own conclusion was I would buy a decent but cheap chinese spindle, and when the bearing eventually go out, replace them myself, rather than buying a 'usa' spindle for 3x to 4x the cost that is actually a chinese spindle that they put better bearings in and raked in a massive profit for an hour of work. You could also put the better bearing in right from the start, but I'd only do that if you found you needed to. I make jewelry on my 10 year old 6040 table. It's got a water cooled spindle, and I made my own flood coolant. I cut mostly alu and gummy 2600 cartridge brass sheets. The spindle bearings are a bit worn out, but they are not the limit to precision (but do contribute to bit wear). Flex of the machine is the primary limit. Still, I make wax seal stamps and test made some collectable coins for a friend that had plenty intricate detail.

[@YouKnow-re6rw]

Can you run spindles up side down? Through a table, for example.

[@user-tf1oo9rj6u]

Generally yes, though you can always ask the seller. Air cooled is probably better for that, as the airflow will help keep chips out of it. In general, spindles should not be sensitive to angle. In a theoretical sense, they might wear the bearings slightly faster. But in a real sense, I have cheap hobby router with a liquid cooled spindle that is 10 years old and has had many bad crashes (bent a ballscrew...) It still cuts fine, though the bearings have a bit more growl. I doubt running it on it's side would remotely compare to wear from the crashes I've had.

[@gqp4800]

You can do anything you want if you are a machinist. Think it up, make

[@markyu70]

I have 2.2KW water cooled spindle and it too quit and I miss powerful router sound I had! 😥

[@Eagles_Eye]

1000 bucks? anything wrong with the Genmitsu 2.2kw water cooled pre soldered spindle? Because that one is less than 400 bucks

[@thomaskletzl6493]

saying a spindel cost 1k is a little weird. you get a preety good spindel with a fq for around 250 euros so its really affordable

[@woodguy4410]

I think the big thing you glossed over is that spindles are 3 phase meaning you will have high torque at lower speed. Routers are 1 phase and their toque curve drops like a rock, if you are running a router you should plan to run it a full speed, even if you have a dial speed control. If you are running a router, you want to set up your cnc to run at full router speed and only slow the router as a last resort.

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Both are single phase. There certainly are 3 phase spindles, but the vast majority of hobby spindles in north America are single phase.

[@woodguy4410]

@@HamiltonDilbeck You use a vfd to convert the 3 phase spindle to 1phase household electricity. I image there are 1 phase spindles that don't need a vfd, but you would have the same torque issues as a router.

[@johnalex3023]

Why RV antifreeze? Wouldn’t any antifreeze work?

[@user-tf1oo9rj6u]

Yes auto antifreeze is fine, and *use distilled water if you do (I learned the hard way,* when it got all clogged up with white slime growths over time). RV antifreeze is made to avoid that gelling & bacterial growth for systems that are filled up and ignored (= no maintenance) for a long time.

[@TheRainHarvester]

Put the dust collector motor outside.

[@gnorpflorbsen8665]

Why antifreeze? Distilled/deionized water has higher thermal conductivity, is non-corrosive, cheaper, and you're not in a vast temp differing environment like a car motor is. Unless im missing something.

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

It would freeze in my woodshop.

[@kenshutes6032]

Why can't a router be wired up like a spindle so speed can be adjusted just like a spindle?

[@ccfmfg]

But I want a spindle? Can I cool My spindle with Home Brewed Beer?

[@Buciasda33]

Nice, but I was hoping to see a proper CNC Spindle...

[@gqp4800]

How bout using a new old black and decker 1 hp. router

[@Agriking]

You pack a crap ton of information into these.

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Lol I try not to beat around the bush too much!

[@petermuller608]

I still don't get it, doesn't every CNC Router use a spindle? I always thought a router is short name for a three axis CNC mill

[@johnpekkala6941]

Router is a generic name for a milling machine that is not used for metal but for softer materials like wood and plastics. They come in both hand held and CNC versions. The hobby CNC version basically combines them and stacks a handheld router on top of a CNC controlled gauntry system. The biggest downside to using a handheld router instead of dedicated spindle I say is that brushed universal motors in general are over 100 dB of noise just from the motor while a spindle motor is whisper quiet cause it is brushless.

[@petermuller608]

@@johnpekkala6941 oh that makes more sense thank you

[@espressomatic]

Compact (trim) routers also come in 10/12v, 18/20v and 220v (most of the rest of the world uses 220). IMO, if someone's investing thousands in a CNC, then a spindle is part of that purchase. Getting a $100 router is just plain stupid. No exceptions. Also, decibels (sound) is CUMULATIVE. Just because you have one device that's loud doesn't mean it's not advantageous for another to be quiet. A spindle is a huge advantage here, even with dust collection (which is also a must-have for any CNC - and NOT a shop vac).

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

yep!

[@MisterMakerNL]

I have 2 routers I mostly use 2 bits the straight and the V-carve, this way I don't have to swap bits but can just swap routers. But anyway this is just an ad for your referral links....

[@HamiltonDilbeck]

Seems like more work to me, but everyone has their own workflow! Thanks for taking the time to watch and even comment on my video thats just an ad for my referral links!

[@dmitribovski1292]

If you are paying $1000 for a new spindle it's a pile of poop made in China you can double that if you want an autochanger. Quality autochange spindles start around $5K. If you need a reconditioned spindle for a Kern Micro c$30K.

[@user-tf1oo9rj6u]

You've nicely highlighted exactly why people should buy a chinese spindle. I've had a cheap chinese spindle cutting alu and brass for 10 years, still running, including several bad crashes. Those are the spindles you are pooping on. Why should someone spend 4x the cost for no discernable gain? For the difference in price, they can go whole tiers of upgrade higher for the price or afford to put another money making machine in their shop for the difference in price. Or they can save their money, and in the event of a catastrophic crash, they can take their pile of saved money and buy 3 spare spindles or an extra motor etc to avoid downtime. I work in a machine shop with a name brand Bridgeport and 2 knockoffs. Guess which have longer travel axies, better motors, better designed cases that are multipiece for easier belt maintenance? You can buy 3 of those objectively better knockoffs for the price of 1 Bridgeport. That's an awful lot of money for a shiny little nameplate.

[@googleyoutubechannel8554]

A compact router is also... a router. If you need a router, a spindle is just a piece of expensive spinny boy that is staring at you saying 'I can't do anything else you need to spend another $250 on a router'.

[@googleyoutubechannel8554]

Also, LOL at 4:50, you definitely wear your ear protection all the time like a responsible adult right....