Which is the Best CNC for You? Avid CNC or Phantom CNC?

I wanted to do this video on my journey into CNC and what I wish I had know before I got too deep into CNC. The machines are a huge investment so I want to help by sharing my experience with both a "bolt together" style CNC and a welded frame CNC. If we are going to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on equipment, I want to make the right decision the first time. I did not. But that is fine, maybe you will make the best decision for you with the help of this info. This is my knowledge of the @AvidCNC and the @phantomcncsystems pro level machines and what I found to be good's and bad's of both by owning and using both. Neither company gave me machines of money for this video. I have owned both machines myself and have used both systems for hobby and production runs. Let's dive in.
Disclaimer as of Aug 2022. Phantom asked me to start talking to some of their customers because of my now knowledge of their machine and they were impressed by this video. There is no way to go back and edit the video to reflect this so a disclaimer will have to do.
Check out Avid CNC:
avidcnc?hl=en
www.avidcnc.com/
Check out Phantom CNC Systems:
phantom_cnc...
www.phantomcncsystems.com/
Omer Composite Nail Guns:
www.avidcnc.com/omer-b17p-com...
www.phantomcncsystems.com/pro...
Composite Raptor Nails:
www.amazon.com/dp/B08STB8BQG?...
www.avidcnc.com/raptor-compos...
www.phantomcncsystems.com/pro...
Follow along with us on:
Instagram: / statedwoods
Tiktok: / statedwoods
www.statedwoods.com
Email: [e-mail]

[@assassinmx3612]

Thanks for all the info. I've had 5x10 avid for a about 3 years now and I'm seriously considering selling it for a phantom. I have to many issues with chattering and accuracy.

[@Statedwoods]

I was in the same boat. Its a huge upgrade to go to a heavy duty welded frame. So many advantages.

[@TheStuartstardust]

@@Statedwoods have you tried bolting the avid to the floor? Or perhaps I also guess more mass in the frame could help. Like bolt inside to concrete squares, like corner ballast. Does not fix all issues, but perhaps reduce the jitter and stop the moving 🤓 Great comparison! I did some 3D carve on a low-end machine, and out of square, makes molds fit badly, after spending hours carving 😔 Another timesaver is tool changer and auto tool Z calibration. Does the phantom have that?

[@davidlangdon9956]

Don’t believe a word from this asshole. He’s a distributor for phantom and therefore completely biased. He never mentions that in his video.

[@maddogtungate6740]

Most chattering and accuracy issues are user error not the the machine.

[@christopherballard3560]

Get a Shop Saber and be done.

[@Livid_Idiot]

This guy is listed as a "Phantom Dealer/Content Creator" on Phantoms website. Maybe pin a comment disclosing when he became a dealer would give his opinion more weight. Not disclosing this is, to say the least suspicious.

[@Luigilocoloco]

Check the description

[@brandonhoffman4712]

Ya that info is in the description. This man's critiques are factual and correct. A $5,000 cnc machine costs as much as the floor buffer I'm looking at. You know, for sanding floors properly... A CNC should cost more than a good floor buffer, if it doesn't, you are playing with hobbyist equipment. That being said, if I was spending 5,000 on a CNC I would be looking @ onefinity. Which still needs a sturdy table, and 2,500 in upgrades to be nice...

[@UpcycleFab]

Great point. I come from the thought process of invest in your business and success will follow.

[@ToddWedlake]

you are comical at best. You can't afford one so you bash the content creator? LOL!!!🤣

[@Livid_Idiot]

@@ToddWedlake My point was that it was not obvious to the average viewer, and a pinned comment would have been more visible. Disclosing his relationship in the video would have been ideal. Funny how the creator did not reply to my comment but you did. How do you know that he did not add that info after reading my comment? Why are you so sensitive to my perceived "bashing" of the creator but find it ok to "bash" me. Have a Great day Todd!!!

[@professionaltinkerer]

Just something to point out here… “pro level CNCs don’t use belts”… yeah, that’s not exactly true. I happen to work on multimillion dollar industrial CNC machines and nearly all of them have one or more axis that use belts in their power trains, even in high precision systems that repeat to 0.001” tolerance. Belt driven systems have benefits and weaknesses just like every drive system, but one of the main reasons that it is used in industrial CNC applications is basically as a “fuse”… belts are cheaper and easier to replace than a gear or gearbox after a major crash.

[@darkwinter6028]

Also, timing belts can be just as efficient as a gearbox, or even more so if the gearbox needs to be zero-backlash.

[@troygattis8381]

What multimillion dollar machine? I’ve laid my eyes on pretty much every ultra high end machine in the industry this week at IWF, I want to go see this particular machine..So far I haven’t been quoted over $250k, fwiw.

[@troygattis8381]

What multimillion dollar machine? I’ve laid my eyes on pretty much every ultra high end machine in the industry this week at IWF, I want to go see this particular machine..So far I haven’t been quoted over $250k, fwiw.

[@professionaltinkerer]

@@troygattis8381 See Prima Power Night Train systems... multimillion dollar punch/laser/shear/robot/storage/bender... I maintain 2 of them. Add in a couple 6kw fiber lasers with storage towers and you are into another mill and half... Don't think machine tools here... you have to think bigger. CNC doesnt just apply to machine tools.

[@troygattis8381]

@@professionaltinkerer , yeah…go find me a CNC router that costs a 1/3 of that with belts on X, Y, or Z..laser heads don’t weight 100’s of pounds…

[@jeffreyjingle]

It’s great video giving points to both sides. My only problem with Phantom is that when I spoke to the owner on the phone he pretended like these were made in the USA and made false claims like “our engineering team spent years building these” as well as “we have a bunch coming back from the frame shop right away”. When these are actually manufactured by Utech in China and just shipped here in a sea-can. Anyone could order these exact machines with their own paint schemes straight from them and resell them just like Phantom has. I have no problem with companies doing that, however I don’t appreciate being lied to and that’s why I’d never purchase from Phantom

[@Statedwoods]

Their machines are engineered by Steve and his engineers in China. A company he started. They have a company in Costa Rica as well. The thing people dont realize is he buys common parts so that there is always a large amount of spare parts or replacements. Same as everyone else. All the CNC companies use China, Italy, Great Britain, Japan parts. If Phantom wants to make a change, they are engineering these changes. Anyone can say “Made in America” but their parts all come from over seas. Just like I grew up in Textiles and the towels and things people buy that are “Organic Cotton” by US standards only requires 5% of the cotton in that towel to truly Organic. Its all the same. Phantom is 100% assembled here like all these other companies. But yes, all these companies use the same components. Im always a USA purchase guy. Never will be anything else. The guys at Phantom are down to earth good hardworking people. Thats one reason I went with them.

[@troygattis8381]

Jeffrey, I knew this comment was going to come up in some shape/form…Anyone familiar with CNC machines knows there are parts on every brand that are not made in the USA. Steve is extremely clear that he has had the majority decision in what makes it into the Phantom machines and what doesn’t. The machines are assembled, programmed and tested in a huge warehouse in Vanceboro, NC..I’ve been there, and spent the night at their quaint headquarters, Steve and his guys are as “salt of the earth” as it gets. I’m not even gonna get into the software stability issues with Mach3/4, or the 16 weeks(or longer) leadtime from other manufacturers.

[@drewactual]

I have a tendency to call a dog a dog... bluntly. I dont buy Steve lied about anything. Why? Because Steve is like me... he calls a dog a dog... bluntly... and its why we clicked. Show me a machine without imported parts? It's not possible. Atop that, and this is coming from a tired ol Marine who's bled and made bleed for this country: China is producing as good a product as anyone nowadays. Cheap stuff, not so much theyre still China, but their quality products are on par with anything anywhere and that's just the way it is. The same people yacking that argument have a Chinese powered drill, table saw, band saw, fans, televisions, appliances et al made guess where? The absolute fact is America doesn't even bother producing it anymore- they just slap a brand on it. Some folks tell the truth about that while others don't. I'd be surprised to the point of visibly shook of Steve or anyone from that shop attempted to mislead about this. .... and to accuse the man of lying? Bitch, please.

[@davidlangdon9956]

No different than this asshole not telling you he’s a distributor for phantom

[@davidlangdon9956]

@@troygattis8381 really? What about this guy not telling everyone UP FRONT he’s a distributor for phantom. That makes this video completely worthless.

[@hostelride758]

Great video Nick, thank you so much for taking the time to make this. Really appreciate it :)

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comment. Glad you liked it.

[@joshpit2003]

I purchased an Avid and use it for Plasma. Very happy with it, but mostly purchased it because I needed to get it through an ordinary door. No other machine offered that ability. I purchased the 4'x8' model, but honestly I should have purchased the 4'x4' model because I didn't anticipate how heavy and awkward the full-sized sheets can be.

[@brandonhoffman4712]

Especially moving all the material through a standard doorway... I haven't seen a shop without a large door, but then again, I haven't seen yours!

[@zackbridgman]

One key difference the avid can be a ATC machine at 22k The phantom ATC is 40k We all have to start somewhere. Can’t have the best of the best to start. An ATC is a game changer for efficiency.

[@42Pursuit]

Incredibly well thought out and articulated video Nick! It answered some questions I've had about the Phantom machines so thanks for that 👍🏼 Knowing you didn't have both machines in your shop at the same time and had to plan your shots and script ahead of time yet you still managed a cohesive video with flawless flow makes the video even more impressive! Kudos to you! Also, your scene sneaking the packages in made me crack up 😄 Keep up the great work brother!

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks my friend. It did take weeks of planning so I am happy with how it came out. Not having both in at the same time was a little hard.

[@jlpease995]

so glad I came across this video. Phantom is only about 1 hour away from where I live and I was looking for a little beefier solution than Avid. I contacted them and selected that I was referred by your company. Thanks for sharing this video.

[@tomim7187]

Was going with an Avid but, now considering a reconfiguration of the shop to accomadate the Phantom. Thanks, Nick, you may have saved this old guy a lot of time and money!

[@Statedwoods]

Good to hear Tom!

[@brandonhoffman4712]

Well seeing the cost difference, I know if I could make it work, mine would have a gnarly welded base!

[@TheCarlTuckerson]

Can't thank you enough for making this video. I am looking to get into CNC and this is the most informative video I've found yet.

[@Statedwoods]

So glad I could help shed some light

[@homebuiltwoodworking9664]

Thank you for the info. I was going back & forth between these 2 and this helped a lot!

[@Statedwoods]

Glad it was helpful!

[@sandmanwooddesign]

Great job Nick!!! I have been waiting for this video for a while. Great points and comparison!!

[@Statedwoods]

Glad you liked it my friend. Cant wait to see what you do with yours soon

[@natecampbell42]

We bought a custom machine from Phantom and it has been great. 5x10 table, taller Z, ATC and a rotary axis. An amazing deal compared to what it would have cost for an equivalent machine from a large brand name like Laguna. We spent a fair bit more then the best Avid setup but also got a lot more. For a machine with similar capabilities to what you can get from Avid is in the same price range. I think that if you are looking for a machine as a business the choice between it and the Avid is a no brainer for all the reasons mentioned. If I was going to give it a fault it would be more on the control side. Mach 4 works but has short comings and definitely isn't a finished full stable commercial solution. But this is likewise a issue for the Avid. It's probably less of an issue if you are not running a ATC and simple doing panel work. I would recommend Phantom CNC machines with no reservations. Great product and good service.

[@Statedwoods]

Great comment Nate. Thanks for your experience on this too

[@frankgrabasse4642]

The great thing about laguna and phantom. Probably same factory in China made both!

[@brandonhoffman4712]

If China moved to North Carolina, then ya Phantom is made in China, North Carolina, USA. If not then China's "Tofu" construction couldn't hold muster up against Phantom's scrutiny.

[@awl_in_woodworks]

Great video Nick. I discovered Phantom at WBC in Atlanta and recall getting your take on the machine while there. I now have the same Phantom you do in my shop and love it. Steve and company are solid folks.

[@Statedwoods]

Hey John. So happy for you. Its an amazing machine. Glad you enjoy it and glad we got to meet up

[@bigdogmn73]

Wow that's the best CNC video I've seen in a while..thanks for all the great info!

[@Statedwoods]

Glad you liked it. Thanks!

[@NolanBuilt]

Great video Nick! You put a lot of work, information and detail into this one! Great work bro!

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks Nolan. Appreciate it my friend

[@fredsmachinewerks4811]

Video and info was spot on. Having sturdy table should be a no brainer, Very good info an all the points. Will pass this on for other who i know that have cheap CNC Cheers

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the kind comment. Appreciate that

[@ned_mograph5957]

thanks for sharing! I've got an avid 4x8 which I love but its really nice knowing what else is out there. Thanks for sharing! I'll def consider phantom moving forward

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the kind comment.

[@SitchBlapped]

Great video, just the kind of info I was looking at before buying one of these for my shop. Thanks for putting in the time and sharing the results. Keep up the good work.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comment. Glad the info helped.

[@gregg7959]

I have been eyeing up a phantom cnc it is cheap for the machine they build plus I like the idea is that they heat treat the frame to reduce tension from welding the frame and machine the top surface for the rails.

[@scobob]

This is the difference between making a CNC for the challenge and using a CNC. I built my first CNC in 2009 and I learned a tremendous amount about the machine as well as the workflow so there is nothing wrong with going with the Avid if that's what you want. If you want up-time and make $$$, Phantom, Leguna, Thermwood are the way to go. I think the moral of this story is, don't think you'll save money building one unless your time is worthless. I spent 6 months and $10k building mine from scratch. That's conservative.

[@erwinz5926]

Thats a very nice attitude to call conservative. I bet, you know your machine in and out now. You might be right, there are solutions on the market. But you can repair your baby. You know it in and out. Thats how 'it' works only. And in 2009 you have been more pioneering and on the frontline of invention. "Making money" is a dogma of stupidity. A modern and very american Way of seeing things. It works, as long every supply chain works in real time and one can share work. But if you are on the frointier of invention, your job is not to scale up production, but to do things better, different and unique. Good. Scaling up production is a nice thing to do.If one has a product that scales well. Its just. There is no real advantage in scaling in cnc. That works to a certain degree, but if the real big fish find you acting, they will undercut you and take you over. So, the gaps must not be too big, then there is real wealth.... Building a cnc machine opens the way to many other machines. Robots, welding, steelcuting with plasma, 3d printing. Understanding pipeline and process is core. I admit, that I learned on youtube propably as much as you in the 3 and 4 th year... But the 1st and 2nd year... the hardware handling and calibrations shit..... thats very practial knowledge. You wont get it at "Titan" Hahahahaha.

[@dzee9481]

If you have pissed off some folks on the comparison between a Professional reliable CNC machine and build your own machine. After you mentioned the company has employees that are makers not marking people that tells me there success is based on what they deliver to their customer's. Thanks for the Video. I built my CNC 20 years ago to understand the mechanics of the machine and G-Code. You are simply providing NON BULLSHIT comparative information between what you already have been using and you have the right to identifying those differences since you experienced it.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comment. Just giving my opinions and experiences.

[@steveeubank683]

The build is part of the fun. And more importantly. If you fear the build, then this may not be your cup of tea. Don't spend a fortune before you find out. The software still must be learned before you can make anything. I bought a little $300 one to see if I liked the work. Learn to use a computer with it. Now, have one that costs just under $1000. It's great and I enjoy it. Thinking to go to a 4ft x 4 ft. As I'm getting better using it. Didn't spend too much, I'm way more likely to not crash a very expensive one learning. That's my take for what it's worth.

[@projetf5j348]

Well done. Chassis is very important. You highlight some interesting issues with the Avid, and when you look at the prices ... You would maybe reconsider your choice with an Avid, provided that you have the right space and a large entrance to welcome this one block unit.

[@briancopley1967]

Great video walking through the differences in the machines. i feel most people today look solely at price or at what each youtuber is using. as fr as youtubers go it is overwhelmingly avid cnc. i did look at them, but im with you as far as having to assemble it since i run a business that needs to be producing products and not assembling fun new toys. I bought a 4x8 cnc router just before new years this last year. ended up going with a grizzly G0895 4x8 cnc router. freight delivered to my shop in one piece, all in at $19500. couple hours hooking up electrical and vacuum pump and i was cutting. alot similar to your phantom, except mine runs ac servo drives from yaskawa and has german built helical rack and pinion. could not find anything else on the market at the time that ran servo motors that came close to the price. thanks gain for the video. like your content. have a good day!

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks Brian for the great comment. Glad you like your machine. Sounds like you did your homework well

[@MattRogersdesigns]

I can't see anything on the grizzly site that shows the rack being German made or the brand of servos used. How do you know that they are using these parts? The rack specifically surely does not say "made in Germany". But it is a similar Chinese clone just like the phantom and way better than an Avid.

[@briancopley1967]

@@MattRogersdesigns FEATURES: Yaskawa 850W Servo Motor Taiwan HIWIN linear guide German WHM rack 10 HP Vacuum Pump 6-zone vacuum table

[@MattRogersdesigns]

@@briancopley1967 Ok, I just don't see that on the website right now. Maybe I am blind.

[@briancopley1967]

@@MattRogersdesigns scroll through the overview. Towards the bottom of that section it says features.

[@zzyyxx123]

Great video Nick. I spoke to you today at IWF and you provided me with some good advice. I'm going to go ahead and assemble my Avid, beef up the supports, and learn to use it. Then I may upgrade to the Phantom and decide whether or not to sell the Avid. Maybe business will be so good that I can keep both running. I greatly appreciated the time you spent with me today. It was the most useful part of my day at IWF. 🙂

[@Statedwoods]

So glad to hear this Ray. Really happy we got to talk a while. Your doing the exact right thing. Use it and abuse it. You will learn so quickly.

[@a.b.4344]

Thank you for such compressed walk through all the differences. The only thing, I feel sorry for you guys not having the opportunities of 230V three phase power supply available by standard all over the country.

[@michaelkey3915]

I get what you're saying but there is a HUGE price difference. The phantom as you said doesn't have the ability to grow therefore to go from their small machine to their biggest machine means literally purchasing a whole new machine where with avid you can simply upgrade. Sorry but I have to completely disagree with what I've watched so far and say that Avid is the way to go for most of us without question until we get into a full on production type of environment.

[@MADxHAWK]

Well that's why the first thing you do on a pc running Windows snd critical processes is to dusable the automatic update feature ;) Never had a problem with updates on my notebook driving my cnc even it is connected to my network and Internet. Btw: Most European countries have 3 phase 400V supply which is splitted to multiple single phase 230V circuits. So you have 230V for usual appliances like vacuum cleaner, kitchen machines, light, TV and so on and 400V for the electric stove. Usualy you don't have 400V 3phase sockets in your house but it can be installed without reconnecting the house to the power grid cause its supplied by default.

[@timbercreekwoodcraft-ryanp5626]

This was extremely informative! Thank you. I had the all the same suspicions you mentioned about the Avid. Still seems like an incredible machine but to each their own what it will be used for in the end. I’m looking at a production ready machine for the future and this video clarified a lot of things. The hobby cnc market has exploded in recent years and there’s a machine for just about every niche and price point nowadays so research and testimonials I feel are ever more important when making a big decision like this. Thanks again!

[@Statedwoods]

Glad the info helped you. I agree, Avid has a niche and a market out there. Just not for a pro machine at that price point. Thanks for the response.

[@davidlangdon9956]

Don’t believe a word from this guy, he’s a distributor for phantom which explains his bias. Never says that in the video

[@green323turbo]

@@davidlangdon9956 , And Phantom isn't made in the USA. Its a chinese machine .

[@davidlangdon9956]

@@green323turbo oh I get it

[@adaption196]

I really appreciate you doing this comparison. Thanks man

[@Statedwoods]

You are welcome. Glad it helped

[@JNWoodworks]

The Phantom looks like a great machine, and the price is good too. If you have a production shop, and they have the specific size and capability on the Phantom that you will ever need, and you really need to run at maximum speed all the time, then it is probably the right machine for you. However, to be fair, I think there are a lot of other cases where the AVID makes more sense. The AVID is not only customizable in size (as you mentioned) but just as the frame is easy to build and ship for AVID (as you mentioned), it also makes it easy to customize by the user. The software is very open so you can do a lot of customization, you can add lasers, plasma heads, and many other things on your own because everything is documented on the electronics and the SW and they support you making your own modifications. The different customizations I have seen on the AVID machines by users continues to amaze me. You can also assemble one of these in a basement or inside a room that just has a walk door. If you don't need super fast production speeds, you can always compensate for rigidity with speed (I can write letters 0.010" high that are very clean with the laser on my AVID machine). So I do think its a bit of an apples to oranges comparison overall, you just picked your specific use case which does make it apples to apples, and in your case, the Phantom makes more sense :-)

[@Statedwoods]

I agree with you 100%. Both have their places.

[@espressomatic]

All great points, but considering all those, the Avid would make a hell of a lot more sense at $5-8k less.

[@saeedkamali2032]

first of all thank you for your sharing experience I'm never work with any of those machine, but after seeing avid machine, I've design my cnc machine and plan to make it, the big problem of avid machine is the structure, because is so light weight and avid must change design structure when someone used 8.7 hp spindle on own machine and big issues is stepper motor, they must used hybrid stepper motor with not loose steps (I've seen someone used servo motor on avid cnc on KZbin, and it's big mistake) avid frame designed for 2.2 kw spindle those aluminum 40*80 size extrusion is not strong enough. and in the final in the same price steel frame is always better choose with any thalk!

[@Statedwoods]

I agree 100%. The light weight nature of the machine is one of their leading issues. Great for setting up in hard to install shops, but not good for CNC work in general. Belt driven stepper motors is also a big no-no. Steppers with gear drives and gear reduction systems are great. Thanks for the comment.

[@user-mx6qu9po8b]

Thanks for your video and all the information you shared. Keep it up the same way you are.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comment. Glad it helped.

[@Wow-el8gy]

Boy, you don’t even need to tell us which one we should or shouldn’t buy. I think we all here in the comments section already know lol. Thank you for making such a great video!

[@xHeroinBoBx]

Thank you for the attention to detail. I just subscribed! woot woot

[@davidevans2094]

I bought a Phantom in October. Im very pleased with it and the company

[@Statedwoods]

Glad to hear that. What a great machine

[@aaronjaggers3117]

These are good people who are working class dudes that are offering this equipment at blue collar affordability. Anyone can get one and get started building wealth . Theyll back you . I’ve gone to see the 5x8 and met some of there people in Georgia and are great . I will be buying there machines exclusively to build my shop .

[@Statedwoods]

Love that. Thanks for the comment!

[@leapnlarry]

I love the wife trick, i have always built my own 3d printers, so i would love to build a Cnc also. If i was starting a cnc business i would get the phantom, if i was just doing it for hobby I would get the AVid. Why did you stop making content, you are good at it and good on camera, which is rare. Make more videos. Larry

[@Starcam]

Great comparison! A CNC Router with a fully welded iron frame is clearly superior, especially because it allows for grinded and rectified surfaces to place the linear guides. One point i dont agree is on the interface analysis. MACH3 (Or MACH4, a less used option) can run smoothly on an old PC with windows XP installed. I dont see windows updates as a big issue here as you can turn any notifications off from the control panel. On the other hand, DSP interfaces (with a RichAuto controller) are quite expensive items and have a tendency to fail quite early.

[@loganbrantley7216]

I would only get the phantom if I was sure I won't ever need to move it again and had access to industrial electrical rates and enough demand for my products to need the capabilities. 4 reasons I would go with the AVID: 1. I can move it for free 2. Easier to resell at 60-75% of original cost 3. The power requirements for the phantom are ridiculous for a home shop. Cost of electrical infrastructure will be expensive and probably draw half your main panels capacity. Between the spindle and 2 vacuum pumps you'll be drawing like 80amps of 220V. Add in an air compressor and dust collector and you are over 115amps. 4. Cost half as much

[@Statedwoods]

Costs are basically the same. The vac pumps pull only 13 amps and the machine only pulls 5-26 amps depending on the task at hand. Avids are easy to move.

[@loganbrantley7216]

O when you said they were on 30 amp breakers I assumed they were pulling like 25 amps. So maybe you were saying one 30 amp breaker for both?

[@markfromwestcoastwoodcraft7633]

I have an Avid and yes it jumps around the shop all day long, sometimes I find it down the street, it just keeps jumping and jumping all over the place

[@Statedwoods]

Better catch that thing

[@MrPhilip203]

This is a super well put together video! If I would live in the US, I would now know what to to. But I am in Germany so I need to figure it out myself and find some good machines here. I think my first machine will be something for 8 - 10k, because the work I want to do doesn't really require more at the beginning and when more customers come in who knows. Something like your Phantom looks super sexy! Thank you for sharing this with us.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comments

[@holidayhaensn6216]

Hey MrPhilip! I'm from Austria and I'm also looking for a good CNC-machine here. Did you already find a similar european machine or brand in your price range? regards Hannes

[@MrPhilip203]

@@holidayhaensn6216 Hey there! I haven't bought one yet, but I found CNC-Step here in Germany. The machines they have look very good. For us the High-Z/T series would be good.

[@5280Woodworking]

The movement and rigidity is one reason I went with my ShopSabre. Phantom looks like a great machine as well. About the only thing I wouldn't want are the rollers, I prefer my vacuum table, but otherwise the machines look well made. IMHO, the argument against a PC is unwarranted and misguided. In fact, I'd argue it's an advantage over a tiny screen and proprietary keypad. PCs are hell-a-reliable, especially when purpose built, very convenient to access your NAS for G-code and/or review cad files, etc. Windows update is a non-issue if configured properly.

[@iROBODUDE]

I also have a ShopSabre. I have a PC design computer that is online. I have a hard wire network to the PC that runs the CNC, it is not online and never updates. If it is working, I don't need updates. It is unable to be distracted from it's dedicated job. Great comment CO WW.

[@ele4853]

Hey dude, just a little constructive criticism. You are off base saying belt driven is worst than gear. BTW belts have are more precise due to no gabs between gear teeth and longevity is no issue. It's all about the quality of material. Cars run 100,000 miles on belts with no problems, and there's many more stuff to say but I have no time! LOL

[@seamancustombuilds2553]

Thanks for the insight and looks like a nice spot to lay around on in the shop

[@Statedwoods]

Haha not going to lie. I have relaxed on them for a min or so lol

[@TheHanyman98]

AVID is more of a pro-sumer CNC (between a professional/commercial and a home unit), while the Phantom is more in the commercial area. I have an AVID and the leg structure allowed me to install it in my basement. I could never have moved a welded unit into my basement. Also note the AVID unit does not come with a base. The leg kit is a separate purchase. I know of some AVID owners that made their own base, either welded steel like the Phantom and some made the legs out of wood.

[@Statedwoods]

Yep thats what an Avid is good for. I agree with you. I have friends doing the same thing

[@seyyedkazemzolanvar7883]

Man, I have a 2m X 4m Cnc machine like phantom(Payon brand) but your video was so helpful for making some changes to my machine Thanks

[@Statedwoods]

Glad I could help!

[@BYOTools]

Wow! Thanks so much for the detailed review between the two machines Nick. Great input for when I actually make the dive into purchasing one. Love the humor you put into this video as well. Keep it up buddy.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks my friend. Glad you checked it out!

[@aaronhansel42]

"Walking across the shop floor" is a pretty big stretch. My Avid 4-8 does indeed have that movement you showed in the clip, but it has never moved from its place.

[@Statedwoods]

It was meant to be a slight exaggeration for sure but you can def see in the sawdust how many inches the machine moves on high speeds.

[@1pcfred]

@@Statedwoods learn how to accelerate. Or get a motion controller that can.

[@TimPercyKayakFishing]

I started off with a couple smaller extruded aluminum style cnc machines (OpenBuild and QueenBee Pro). I spoke with the guys at Phantom, but the logistics of getting one to Canada and the exchange rate really increased the price. I ended up going with at similar style machine...a C10-510ATC from CanCam up here and in Canada. The vacuum table and automatic tool changer is a big time saver.

[@strikebr]

AXYZ is that expensive one? They are Canadian too isn't?

[@stephenblackwood1703]

I'm also in Canada, was looking at CanCam instead of Phantom. Would you mind chatting about your experience?

[@brandonhoffman4712]

Exchange rates don't increase the price. Just convert it's cost to your type of compensation. $20,000 USD has the same value as whatever $20,000 USD worth of Canadian dollars is, and it's also cost prohibitive here. It's like the cost of a Honda civic by the time it's ready to run.

[@vladyerus]

I was curious on the vacuum pumps, do those when connected together in series like you have it require two separate 230v circuits? Meaning in total to run that machine you will need a total of 3 separate 230v circuits ? Or does it somehow connect those two pumps to the same 230v circuit.

[@Statedwoods]

No you are correct. They need separate 30 amp breakers.

[@timrichmond5020]

Awesome video, thanks for the info!

[@josephgregory5567]

Great review! You make some very valid comparisons. I only disagree with you in one area. The X and Y NEMA 34 drive systems. I spent my engineering career working in driveline systems (43 years) as an automotive engineer. I can tell you that a belt drive system like Avid's will have way less back lash (zero) which equates to positional error than a gear driven system like Phantoms Its just physics. Positional error equates to less control and repeatability in your cut. If Phantom incorporated a drive like AVID I would probably purchase one. One last thought, If something fails in the Phantom like this gear train for the X and Y axis, how readily available are the parts? Are they coming from China and if so how much of a guarantee does the end user have that these gears will be available in 10 years from now? Support and availability long term is something everyone should be concerned about. As far as the movement of the frame. I circumvented this by placing my wood sheets on the cross frame of the AVID. Rock solid and a great storage area in a small shop. And no I am not a dealer for Avid or have anything to do with them. Thanks Again

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comment. You probably know more about motors than I do. I just know that I could get the Avid out of step with almost every job if I wanted too and I have never been able to with the Phantom. As for parts, Phantom says that the reason they buy easily obtainable parts (from China) is so they can easily get replacements if needed. My machine came with a 3 year warranty on most parts so I did not worry about that. Made sense to me why they used easily obtainable parts. Thanks for the comment.

[@etch3130]

@@Statedwoods You also state that belts have high fricional losses, this overstates the situation. Belts have a transmission effeciency of around 95% spur gears are better at 99% but the 4% is not particularly significant.

[@chucklenz9011]

Ball screw drives are better than both. But the use, abuse and stupidity factors should be the mitigating factor for choice between the three. Industrial and shop floor supervisor experience drives my decisions.

[@P8ntbaLLA56]

@@chucklenz9011 linear motor drives would be better than all 3. But ballscrews would be the worst choice for a dust factory like this machine. Abrasive, acidic wood dust on a greased screw, would stick to it like a magnet. If that slurry ever made it inside of the ballnut, it's game over.

[@MattRogersdesigns]

Every single high quality CNC machine is built more like the Phantom and less like the Avid and they use helical rack and pinion gears vs. belts. The belts do not have the load and speed capacity for heavy spindles. I can say for certain that they are contract produced by a factory in China. That is not a bad thing as nearly 100% of the woodworking machines that we use are made there as well. Parts are widely available, although replacing them exactly may not be possible. Drives, VFDs, spindles, steppers are all modular parts and different ones can be made to work if you need a replacement 10 years later. In fact, these contract manufacturers are always changing these machine around to fit a customer's needs. I would like Phantom to give some credit to the Chinese manufacturer as they are the ones that developed this product and do all the work to put it together. Phantom did not do any of the work other than choosing some specs and importing the machines. They resell them. Again, this is not a bad thing. I just don't like to do work myself and not get credit, so neither should the Chinese factory workers. I am currently working with one of these CNC companies to import a CNC just like this Phantom. I can choose any option I want, down to the type of servos (Leadshine, Delta, Yaskawa), brand of helical rack (China, Taiwan, Germany), control system (Mach3, Syntec, LNC), bed size (4x8, 5x10), spindle (9kw HQD ATC), Rotary 4th axis, etc. It is a bit stressful to go through the process and deal with the ocean freight and then customs, but that is where the profit from Phantom comes into play. Mine will be under $20k landed in NY for 5'x10' ATC with vacuum table and pump, small rotary, dust collector, and everything other than the pneumatic rollers. Totally reasonable that Phantom would charge $15k more for dealing with the importing of the machines and profit. I think that they are doing a great job to introduce these Chinese machines to the US market and if I was not more concerned about the possibility of issues during the import process, I would buy one of their machines.

[@lynnsmith870]

Hell of a review and very understandable information! You said they didn’t give you any money or products!! Well you did such a bad ass review they should give you 2 brand new. One for you and one for me! 🧐

[@Statedwoods]

I wish that would be the case haha. Thanks!

[@Wouldwoodwork]

Solid video Nick, I'm considering one because of you and Nolan 🙏🏾

[@Statedwoods]

Awesome!

[@antonykabore1826]

Hello, I love what you offer and it gives me a lot of motivation!!! I recently have a CNC Router 1325 (wood) but I can not use it because my pc (Windows 10) does not have the necessary drivers to use it. Do you know on which site I can find it? I have been looking for several days now but without results. Thank you in advance!!!!

[@magicman9486]

brands do not matter. rigidity and components are all that matters.

[@markkeown9532]

You may be comparing apples and oranges. Machines designed for two different. functions / two different manufacturing environments. I spend 1.5 days assembling an Avid machine - bring it to the point of plugging it in and hooking up pc. Typically the weight of a machine is proportional to it's cost. Cost of machine and cost of shipping are far from equal. Vibration issue (acceleration) can be sorted in software. At some level of acceleration the Phantom will have a noticeable deflection. I have used Avid CNC help which I am totally impressed with. Same day response... or just call on the phone and talk to a person.

[@Statedwoods]

Glad you have enjoyed your machine and how great customer service. Im comparing these machines based on price and how much machine you can get for the money. Weight is obviously not proportional to cost in this case. Thats the importance of this comparison. I disagree with the software sorting out vibration. A heavier machine will always have lower vibration even at extremely higher speeds. I have not noticed any deflection even running the Phantom at its max of 700+ inches per minute at full 1/2 depth of cut on material. Avid could never do that.

[@TheTinkirWorkshop]

My axiom uses that same DSP. It’s always great knowing that it runs independent of a PC.

[@Statedwoods]

Yea they work so well in my experience.

[@jamesmaccubbin7434]

Thank you for so much for this video! So I understand... with the vacuum pumps, I will need to have an electrician put in two 30 amp 220V outlets, correct?

[@Statedwoods]

Yes. You can put plugs on them if you want too but I like hard wired.

[@TeamVAPr]

thumbs up for the apple and orange drop

[@randallsmith7885]

Thank you for this video. We have been flooded by videos by ‘influencers’ who got free CNC’s from Avid. It bothers me that these folks have been bought like this. And they extoll the virtues of the Avid without talking about the trade offs. The dishonesty if these influencers is really starting to bother me. And it isn’t just about CNC machines.

[@Statedwoods]

100% agree. Phantom made me a content creator after all this and they have a policy that they dont give machines out for free publicity and all content creators have to purchase a machine. Its all honest opinions from any creators with Phantoms. No rules or requirements on opinions. That fact I love about Phantom.

[@1pcfred]

For free I bet the Avid is great.

[@tonxmodern4436]

I think you just talked me into buying a phantom sometime in the future!

[@RobLDennis]

Took me 2 days to put my 5x10 AVID together. Shipped without 3 supports and missing several sets of screws however. Still doesn't cut level, not sure why appears level to me. Only reason I'd want to swap is for a pre-built perfectly level machine so user setup error is removed and to get a machine with an automatic tool changer.

[@Statedwoods]

Im right there with you. I did enjoy rolling it in and it basically be ready vs spending days assembling the avid.

[@endlesslybrowsing6559]

I've been looking at the machines Spark Robotic has as well. Machines with a steel frame but they are made to bolt together. Useful for someone who wants a more heavy duty machine but doesn't have the ability to get a full machine into whatever place they need it.

[@Statedwoods]

Absolutely. Thats an good option as well.

[@brandonhoffman4712]

Will the phantom fit through a single car garage door? I haven't been in a shop without one... Nor would I want to own a shop without one... Normally it's a roll top door big enough to hide an Amazon delivery truck!

[@stevewright454]

Had my AVID for a year. I can say that the the rigidity is a real issue. If you are still considering an AVID, a fee things that may help: Don’t use their legs, make your own fabricated steel table, as solid as you can afford. If you DO use the AVID legs, box in all the structure you can. And add ballast weight to the frame. And one question about the Phantom, if you’re talking “pro-level “machines, I don’t see an ATC on your machine? AVID doesn’t offer an ATC, but there are plug and play ATCs out there for the AVID. I look at my first year with my AVID as a learning experience and I’m noting all the changes I’d make for my next machine. Thanks for your report

[@Statedwoods]

I agree. Those changes to the Avid would work fine. Phantom does have an ATC machine. The one in this video doesnt have one. Just added an ATC machine to my shop.

[@lj3549]

Man, the prices in the video are crushing me. Phantom's machines increased in price 50% in one year.

[@Statedwoods]

Yea its unfortunate but everyone did with the price of steel increase and just the countries economy on materials

[@garyw.1450]

How hard is it to remove the hold down rollers if you want to do 3d engraving and do you need an other type of clamp to stop sliding?

[@Statedwoods]

You dont need other clamps when using the rollers. I like to have scrap wood around my piece to keep the rollers even on whatever material you are cutting. If your doing 3D carving or dont want the rollers, they are removed with just 1 nut on each end. Can add or remove in under 30 seconds.

[@garyw.1450]

@@Statedwoods Need to find a retro fit for my machine noa as it wasn't an option when I bought mine.

[@emieldebruijn4804]

Thanks for the info man i needed it!

[@Statedwoods]

Glad the video was a help!

[@youjustgotserved8207]

You squashed my feelings.

[@carlpetitt2241]

Great video, but one topic you didn't mention at all is Automatic Tool Change capability. To me, this is one area that can be a huge time-saver for CNC processing, and is also a glaring shortcoming of Avid (Avid does not offer any ATC option at all). I bought an Avid 4x8 Pro Series but didn't buy their spindle or electronics. I found an ATC spindle from CNC Depot that works well with the Avid. But it was a HUGE amount of work to set it up and get it working. It even required some programming to get the tool change to work properly and avoid crashing, etc. I would much rather have an ATC capability that is already designed, built, tested, and backed the company that made it. Phantom does offer a CNC line that includes ATC but from what I can tell it's much more expensive (>$30k).

[@SoftWeekly]

We outfitted our 4x8 Avid with a ATC. It was some work but has run fine since

[@Sbregher]

OMG! This is the best comparison video I've seen - ever! Nick, your delivery and honesty is awesome! Thanks a million for taking the time to share your experiences! I'm will be saving my money for a Phantom!

[@gbjones54]

Lathes are heavy to reduce vibration and often have a shelf to add more weight. Vibration a big deal. Make sense with a CNC to.

[@Statedwoods]

Yes, vibrations and unwanted movement is a real issue. Thats why I love a solid, rigid, heavy frame.

[@r.m6883]

I'm not from your country but you saved me. Thank you.

[@Statedwoods]

So glad I could help

[@zachc1]

This was a fantastic video. Thank you. I’m a small business in cabinetry looking to purchase a CNC. I thought the AVID was the no-brainer. I’m now investigating the Phantom. My only misunderstanding is the price. I was under the impression that the avid was ready to go for about $8k (4x8 table). Looks like I was mistaken. Thanks again - very good information and I will use the wisdom wisely.

[@Statedwoods]

Thats what the website tells you. Thats for just the table. None of the controls or electronics come with the 8k price. Its very misleading.

[@projetf5j348]

@@Statedwoods You would like to put $15k to make it running

[@Portergetmybag]

Phantom owes this guy. Best infomercial ever.

[@Statedwoods]

Haha thanks. Just my honest opinion.

[@me-qg2mt]

Great video. I also cracked up when I saw the part where you were running from your wife. I do disagree with your statement related to the unreliability of the timing belts. I have a large CNC doing heavy cuts on stainless and carbon steel. I've been using the same machine for almost 20 years. All three axis using timing belts to connect the servos to the ball screws. They are all in good condition. Also there is zero backlash attributed to the belts when properly tension-ed. I've also been running a large CNC for the past 10 years first using Mach 3 then Mach 4 on Windows. I have run hundreds of hours and have never had any computer related glitches.

[@bradbrown2168]

Great vid. Very informative. I need to pour a slab, build a metal building, run power first. But this is definitely the machine. XRP will moon in 23. That’s when I’ll set up my shop!

[@espressomatic]

Looking at the same process - still not sure if it's going to happen, but fingers crossed. It's a big pivot.

[@MrJcTTK]

If you have a chance I would look at a shop Sabre. It's completely American made out of milled tube aluminum. If you are looking for ridgity which is really the main issue when it comes to milling wood I highly suggest it. Also their tech support is super nice.

[@MichaelWoodrum]

Damnit, that price is crazy. I've spent more on my avid over time to not have what that has. You got me bumming out on this one

[@amirshokri852]

Great video and very informative. Thanks a lot.

[@Statedwoods]

Glad it was helpful!

[@74Muthesius]

Can you operate a Phantom 4x4 without utilizing the vacuum table? Just use hold downs the old fashioned way?

[@Statedwoods]

Yes you sure can. You will apply a spoilboard no matter which machine you have or if you use vacuum or not

[@MG6Makes1776]

Great video, solid argument. You are correct! If I were in the market for a business class machine I'd go Phantom.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the comment. Glad you liked the video

[@athornton1974]

Fantastic video, man. Thank you.

[@Statedwoods]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@user-qi6xe8zw9r]

thank you for the awesome review Nick. What model did you buy?

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks. This was the S series. Now the Shadow series

[@drewjbx228]

I have the same exact vacuum motors... running both at the same time, do you know the total amp draw? have not hooked mine up yet. Also are these extremely loud? I might place outside but have close neighbors.

[@Statedwoods]

They pull around 17amps on start up I believe. A little loud. Outside would be best for heat evacuation but sound may bother neighbors. About the same DB as a dust collector.

[@drewjbx228]

@@Statedwoods Thanks for the reply, so both vacuums can be on a single 30amp breaker?

[@jasonkolacia5538]

Great Video! This solidified the direction that I am going for my next CNC purchase. I just need to build that dream garage. Thanks for putting this out!

[@Statedwoods]

Glad to help. Good luck with the dream shop! Think ahead best advice I can give

[@thedabblingwarlock]

Came to see what the Phantom CNC was about. Subbed for the intro.

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for the sub!

[@calsworkshop]

thanks for sharing your honest opinion, and good to know you drink beer too!

[@Statedwoods]

Thanks for watching!

[@ToddWedlake]

completely agree with the "unrigid" comment as I own a CNC4NEWBIE machine built the same way. To the @livid_idiot comment below about becoming a phantom dealer, well I've put my hands on a Phantom and it is a FAR CRY better than most machines on the market for comparable or less money. Don't take it personally because you can't afford one! I am certainly planning on moving away from this CNC4NEWBIE toy to the Phantom in the near future

[@P010010010100101]

I'm glad you hit the price topic. I was struggling with justifying the price of a Laguna vs the AVID (didn't even know about Phantom). The price of the AVID seemed really great until you figure out the base price only includes the frame. Then it's like $15k by the time you add everything. "Might as well get a Laguna" was my thought. Thanks for featuring a more affordable and sensible alternative!

[@Statedwoods]

You are welcome. Glad I could help shine a little light.

[@davidlangdon9956]

Don’t believe someone that lies to you like this fool

[@egemens]

I prefer all ballscrews axis and closed loop steppers. Especially if cnc is about automation, open loop stepper makes no sense to me. Also if you are into tweaking, modding I prefer a pc and mach3 or even better a real time kernel linux with a fpga control card.

[@104Tomcat]

Thanks Nick! I considered AVID before choosing a Chinese router over it. Now I have a good American alternative that looks good, very good to me.

[@Statedwoods]

Glad it works for you.

[@green323turbo]

And Phantom isn't made in the USA. Its a chinese machine .

[@MrJcTTK]

Get a shop sabre instead Fully made in america

[@zackbridgman]

The only place I see phantom falls short is in their industrial machine offer the machine and vac pumps in 3 phase. 220v single phase is limiting to the power the machine can achieve. Also if phantom would release a lighter duty machine with an ATC it would demolish the market. There is no good options for an atc for a 1-2 man shop that’s not pumping out tons of parts that needs such a heavy duty machine. Thats where avid draws people in. You can add atc

[@Statedwoods]

Good points there for sure. Maybe they are working on other options.

[@zackbridgman]

@@Statedwoodsthat would be killer!

[@johnhubbard6262]

Oh man, I am revisiting this video in my favorites, I just noticed since I did not pull the trigger on one when I first watched it, the price on the starter SCV went up 4k

[@Statedwoods]

Yea thank inflation and the price of steel and goods. Costs more now to make everything

[@hayden9944]

7:40 - very easy to ad rigidity and mass. Some laser cut sheet metal panels bolted to the base for example. Still a negative point but if ur running the machine like that you can easily make it work better for you.

[@Statedwoods]

I agree with you

[@hayden9944]

@@Statedwoods - I would go for the Phantom tho! That’s an insane price! How is customer service? Any training given?

[@ukie5130]

Great review of both cnc machines. As a cnc hobbyist, I have an AVID Desktop Pro and am quite happy with this system. My original problem was finding a macine that I could get downstairs into my basement workshop and this machine fit the bill exactly as it came unassembled and I could get it into my workshop fairly easily. The assembly however, did take a few days but it gave me an opportunity to learn how the cnc was put together in case I needed to haver to repair any part of it at some later point. I have had it now for several years and have not expereienced any repair problems with it so far.

[@Statedwoods]

Glad you have enjoyed it. These are all fun machines.

[@drewjbx228]

I purchased 4x8 CNC from China - Alpha CNC, they look almost identical to these Phantoms. The legs are the same but came unattached in the crate to save in shipping costs. Also the gantry came unattached as well... all placed on the vacuum table. I am assuming Phantom gets these from China and rebrands them as their own. I can say my machine is rock solid and runs great. I was looking at X-Carve Pro and Avid CNC... and decided I really needed a rigid base. I ended up paying 10K total... my first CNC, some drawbacks are the controller is Chinese and only supports MACH3, I might switch it out with a SmoothStepper some day. Also the Vacuumm controls are in the rear. Overall I am still learning but can easily profile cut through 3/4" MDF in 2 passes at 250 ipm. It can probably do better but I am just playing it safe.

[@Statedwoods]

Phantom designs and engineers their own table frames. These are specifically designed to reduce vibration based on leg placement. They dont rebrand anything and call it their own. You could run your machine harder I believe. Im run full 3/4 inch DOC in 1 pass no problems.

[@green323turbo]

And Phantom isn't made in the USA. Its a chinese machine .

[@MattRogersdesigns]

@@Statedwoods This can not be a true statement. Please check your facts regardless of what the company may be saying to you. I would bet a significant amount of money that the machines are built in Jinan, China. And they at most asked their contract factory to make something for them. They don't appear to have an engineer listed on their website, certainly not one with more experience than the Chinese guys who have been building 100,000 of these over the past decade in each of 100 factories in that city. Look at StyleCNC, Acctek CNC, Omni CNC, Quick CNC, Blue Elephant CNC, just to name a few. You will find identical machines, or ones that can be easily configured with whatever features the customer wants. They will paint and brand the machines to any color and name. I am importing one of these machines soon and they offered to put my company name on their machine, no extra charge. But this is not a bad thing. the market needs these products as Avid is over-priced and crappy compared to the China machines. Just don't go about saying that it was the US guys doing the work, other than importing and selling them.

[@1pcfred]

@@MattRogersdesigns I can smell the cosmoline from here. It's Chinese!

[@MattRogersdesigns]

@@1pcfred Exactly, but remember that Chinese doesn’t always mean bad quality’s. They can manufacture great stuff if you ask for and pay for it. Or they can make stuff more cheaply than you can imagine. One good thing about the Chinese machines is that they are not proprietary and all use the same parts. That means that if you need a replacement, it should easily be available from any one of a 100 different suppliers and a quick swap.

[@bgfunbear]

Great video Nick, very well done for the newbs looking to jump in. I know u only have these two machines, just curious if you have any experience with shopbot and Shop Sabre. They both seem to have the rigid frames? Also, I wanted an ATC as well as indexing and a vertical clamping for edge work for things like dovetails. ShopBot and ShobSabre both do this...any thoughts?

[@Statedwoods]

They make good machine. I always stay away from ball screw machines however. They will have flex on large machines on the ball screws and loss of torque compared to helical rack and pinion machines. In my opinion.

[@bgfunbear]

@@Statedwoods Thx for your input... fortunately, I can live with a 30x40" range work area machine, that should help on the ball screw flex issue I would think...I also suffer the problem u advised of, a 42" wide door opening! argggg. Hence why I was considering the Avid, but I will doing precision work, where +/- .001" actually maters, such as dovetails and precision nesting. With all that info, is there is any other machines u would suggest? Phantom does not make smaller machines with ATC. But I love all the incredible features they offer. And before your video, somehow they flew under my radar! which is odd, as in most fields, we know every maker in the category we are considering, obviously not true in CNC world, hence all the similar comments.