10 Flaws KLINGON IMPERIAL FLEET (Star Trek)

[@Bilskirnir3124]

To be fair on #9, most of that footage is from DS9, which has the highest concentration of badass in the Federation. The Sisko, Don't Fuck With, has decked gods and made them thank him for the privilege. Dax is a three hundred year old sword master. Kira has been a resistance fight since she was a child. Odo is a shapeshifter and just flat better than Klingons physically. O'Brian is a veteran and hero of the first war with Cardasia. Bashir is Khan but a good guy. Last but not least we have Garak who is just a humble tailor who certainly didn't threaten to kill me if I said anything else about him.

[@jhmcd2]

Don't worry, that pain chip will burn out after a wajjajjaja.

[@perezfinichames]

lol......that was a fantastic post Linuxgeek3121! Well done!

[@Youlie2142]

I’d bet you garak has the highest body count of them all.

[@That80sGuy1972]

Yep. Klingons are, on average, even more in military, superior in every way to Starfleet anyone. The fact that those Starfleet people fought off Klingons as if they were peers or inferior is not a mark of shame to Klingons, it's a mark of pride to those who defeated them... a task that most non-Klingons would be killed by. Klingons are not just mindless warriors, they are pragmatic. They respect superior warriors, it's actually part of their culture. The Klingon Empire have far more warships with heavy weapons than the Federation could ever muster after the Federation realized they needed to break out of their delusion of "no warship" thing into deciding they needed warships. I find it odd that, except for the Defiant, Starfleet was really slow to build (and-or alter) more Starfleet ships in a more warship fashion. I mean, even the Oberth, a modular science vessel, could easily be a Federation Destroyer or Frigate because of energy output alone that could charge weapons/shields in said modification.

[@robertagren9360]

The Sisko was an ancient relic who had the energy by a fanaillion

[@casbot71]

*Lieutenant Ezri Dax:* I tend to look at the Empire with a little more skepticism than Curzon or Jadzia did. I see a society that is in deep denial about itself. We're talking about a warrior culture that prides itself on maintaining centuries-old traditions of honor and integrity. But in reality, it's willing to accept corruption at the highest levels. *Lt. Commander Worf:* You are overstating your case. *Lieutenant Ezri Dax:* Am I? Who was the last leader of the High Council that you respected? Has there even been one? And how many times have you had to cover up the crimes of Klingon leaders because you were told that it was for the good of the Empire? I... I know this sounds harsh, but the truth is, you have been willing to accept a government that you know is corrupt. Gowron is just the latest example. Worf, you are the most honorable and decent man that I've ever met. And if *you're* willing to tolerate men like Gowron, then what hope is there for the Empire? *Ezri pointed this out after saying:* That the Empire was dying, and it deserved to die. She had given it 300 years tops. And with her seven lifetimes of experience, one of which included as a man that lived and fought alongside Klingon warriors, she had the perspective to make this analysis. And the skill to beat the crap out of most Klingons as she was also _very_ experienced in Klingon martial arts. The irony is what saves the Klingon Empire is the Federation, who eventually absorb it, thereby contributing to both societies. The Klingons provide some passion and resilience that the uptight Federation is lacking, and physically they are very robust, immune to the _phage_ for example, and having a complete backup set of internal organs. While the other Starfleet species can cover for the shortcomings of Klingons - *Martog* himself preferred Dr Julian Bashir to treat him as Klingon doctors where not as skilled. He stated that human doctors and engineers were superior to Klingons in their area of expertise. And other species could help Klingons reach a higher potential, specifically Vulcans and their training in emotional control that helped *B'lanna.* And that leads to the other big change, humans, being human, within a generation they're are going to be a lot of Klingon/Human hybrids. Also I have a theory that humans subconsciously keep aliens around to make themselves act ethically, they don't want to shame the species in front of others. Look at what happened when the *Equinox* had an all human crew [ethics crimes]. Having to live around different species may force Klingons to not just give lip service to honour, but to actually abide by it. After all, the one Klingon who grew up around aliens is the most honorable one of the lot. With a bit of Klingon blood in the mix, finally the over controlling passivity inherited by the Vulcan patronage may be tempered with some fire.

[@youke84]

A very impressive analysis. Respect.

[@Parabueto]

Some generally really good points there but I'd respectfully disagree about why aliens are kept around. It's more likely to try and get different perspectives on problems and to have a wider array of skillsets/adaptations around. I'd bet if the Equinox crew were anything but mostly Vulcan (and even then without knowing the full ramifications when they started experimenting they might have started too, but then probably would have allowed themselves to be destroyed instead of risking taking phase shifting aliens back to the federation) the same thing would have happened.

[@ezridax5809]

Thanks

[@Hambie76]

Excellent analysis. Should be perfectly obvious to any Trek Fundy, but many of them don't seem to handle any criticism of the Trek universe with grace. However this was very well stated.

[@alexanerose4820]

+casbott Honestly, it might not be as bad as we think it is considering our view comes from the Federation (those pompous, moralistic idealists).I mean we never see any cultural problems with them and their government despite human nature being a thing and the fact that multipule cultures living together must produce SOME tension. Diversity is not a strength unless you sterilize other cultures and their values. But what I think the Klingons need three important things: 1.) A unifying purpose: each Klingon house is just doing their own thing. Had they all an enemy to fight, a directive, or something similar then the Klingons would be an even greater force then they are now. 2.) A revitalization of their culture: their ways don't need to be replaced. They just need some spit-shine and updates on them. A few technological additions here and there, a renewal of interests in upholding their conservative values, a few integrated practices from other xeno-I mean- aliens with a Klingon flair, and etc and they'll be good. Adding personalized shields and adding energy to their blades while enhancing their running is a good example. 3.) A figure that inspires them: Basically, more Martuks. Seeing that they have 1 out of three I'd say they have a good start. They are one of my favorite races in ST even if I'm a SW fan.

[@nicolaiveliki1409]

The Klingon Imperial Defense Forces actually have multiple special ops programs. And while they may not be concerned with personal security, their operational security is exceptional. Also, the boarding parties of the Klingons often feature their most expendable and unexperienced fighters; dying in Battle gets you to Sto'Vo'Kor, surviving gets you a chance to challenge your commanding officer and take his place. Also, challenging your CO isn't the only way to advance in the Klingon Imperial Defense Forces. Your CO needs to be incompetent, cowardly, or a traitor (which is the same in Klingon culture) for you to challenge them, this is a method of ensuring discipline and loyalty from the bottom up. Basically, if you allow your crew to mutiny against you, it's your own damned fault

[@dustinowens9552]

There was a sort of Klingon Intelligence program. Odo caught 3 spying on Romulans on DS9 when confronted the Klingons talked so the Klingon fleet would not be notified of their failure. I think it was the ep where Miles O. kept flashing to the future.

[@Lokiawa]

@@dustinowens9552 Correct.

[@Roddy229X]

The Yan'isleth for example.

[@nicolaiveliki1409]

@dave carter feudal earth cultures had espionage organizations as far back as the old chinese dynasties. It's really not that much of an issue

[@lynngreen7978]

Prior to Rick Berman, the Klingons had *three* intelligence agencies. Imperial Intelligence (answered to the emperor), Imperial Security (answered to the oligarchs now known as the High Council), and the Klingon Diplomatic Corps (Arne Darvin was one of these agents).

[@metayerman]

You dare to disparage the EMPIRE?! You are without honor, you bring shame on your house.

[@HacksignKT]

lol

[@LiliaArmoury]

laughs in hand to hand expert

[@mtrich8113]

Attaboy you tell that" kitok" Klingons are not to be messed with.

[@nurse425]

You shame the EMPIRE with your antiquated, outdated practices! I CHALLENGE YOU!!!!

[@XMysticHerox]

11:20 to be fair Dax is a 300 year old symbiont that was a sword master in one of its live. The rest comes down to plot armor really. In the lore they are supposed to be super good at melee combat obviously.

[@nick5661]

Id say the bajorans beating them is also because they were enslaved for 50 years by cardassians and security officers on ds9 most likly served in the resistance.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

Dax might have the mental knowledge, and experince but she also would lack the physical conditioning and muscle memory that came with that lifetime of swords training

[@rumsmuggler30]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 She trained on a pretty regular basis.

[@rumsmuggler30]

@Viktor Samoja I'm aware of all that, but thanks.

[@XMysticHerox]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 Muscle memory and physical conditioning is memory. And she has all the memories from previous host. Also the show made it clear she was among the best sword fighters in the known galaxy.

[@scpfoundation05-17]

I think he forgot that "Female Trill" that beats the klingons in hand to hand combat is about 300 years old because of Dax.

[@syzmon8545]

Yeah but Klingons are supposed to have stronger bones and muscles that makes them 5 fold stronger than humans. Honestly the melee combat is depicted pretty poorly since with that strength they could wack most other species and cause skull fractures or break their spines.

[@MrAranton]

A 300 year old mind in a twenty-something year old body. One that spent most its time in academic pursuits, not athletic ones to get where she is. Let's face it; Jadzia Dax is not the tough girl of DS9, she's the nerdy chick; and there one word for warriors that that get their asses handed to them by the nerdy chick. Pathetic.

[@sheilaolfieway1885]

and has plot armor

[@ziggystardink9389]

She was also trained by Warf and was in a relationship with him. They show them sparing several times in the holodeck. And as several people have already posted DS9 is the last place anyone wants to invade due to Starfleet stacking the deck with the most "un Star Fleet " personnel they could muster.

[@mrjedi100]

Klingon did have special ops, just known as Klingon intelligence, seen in DS9 visionary and TOS trial and tribble-ations, easy to forget as they wern't as flashy a the other espionage agency's

[@bananashiprepublic7022]

which makes them arguably better lol

[@artembentsionov]

Imperial Intelligence operatives tend to view the IDF as rabid dogs. The IDF reciprocates, seeing the spooks as dishonorable p’taks. So, basically the Red Army and the NKVD during Stalin’s rule.

[@darwinxavier3516]

I wonder who's idea it was to send a scummy lawyer to push a faked tragedy to guilt the Federation out of protecting the Cardassians. Hell, with the corruption of the Klingon leadership, it might have been common practice.

[@maarchalk2840]

I always found it funny that the klingons called it the Klingon Defense Force seeing as they mostly use it aggressively.

[@TheJarric]

from rpg its explained that defense fleet is chanselors fleet others are from great houses mostly

[@maarchalk2840]

@@TheJarricI learned something today thanks :)

[@Reepicheep-1]

I must defend this world I just found against the aggression of its inhabitants!

[@RichO1701e]

@@maarchalk2840, the same can be said for the Israeli "defence" force

[@3Rayfire]

Remember that Klingon first contact was an alien invasion by the Hur'q. They were able to gain warp drive from the encounter and eventually evicted the Hur'q but it colored everything about how the Klingons view space. Part of the point of the Klingon Empire is just to be a buffer between Qo'nos and possibly hostile worlds. In other words the best defense, is a good offense.

[@igorwojtyna2158]

Ever considered that we might not know the Klingon spec ops because they are that good at their job

[@starsilverinfinity]

Klingons - Hand to Hand Combat, not even once

[@Jasonbelkin]

I would go that far see basic Klingon foot soldier very possible Klingion special force more effective since do have combat knives could cut threat of enemies quitily

[@CHappy778]

Will we get some navies from Stargate as well in this series?

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

They just rank on the bottom, right under the dirt, the worms in the dirt, my stool, the Klingons, then everyone from Star Gate

[@Florianmunz]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 the asgard have damn good ships. I only watched stargate sg1

[@victorbruant389]

10 flaws/advantages with the Terran Empire pleaaaase!

[@TrayTerra]

Victor Bruant alternate universe naval fleet series, they need to do this.

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

The Bird has SPOKEN

[@TheClaymanRace07]

most of these "flaws" videos a f***ing garbage.

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

They have a lot in common with Klingons. But no pretenses of honor 😎

[@artembentsionov]

Well, a flagship capable of laying waste to half a planet with a single volley is definitely an advantage. A flaw would be said flagship’s power core slowly killing the multiverse.

[@losthart5577]

Good job Ben. This deeper look into the Star Trek Universe is awesome. Thanks to you and your team

[@Anakin5301]

Jadzia dax isn’t a fair comparison, she had experience with Klingon weapons

[@SamuelJamesNary]

The Klingon Bird of Prey is something of an odd classification. As not all of them were necessarily "small." In TNG, the Klingons had also build other classes of Bird of Prey that were substantially larger than those built in TOS. There is an episode in which Picard and the Enterprise D are dealing with a sort of standoff on the Romulan neutral zone and calls in for help from the Klingons, who send a few Birds of Prey that appear to be of comparable size to the Enterprise D... They were smaller, but not by much. Which would mean that particular class would be bigger than the Enterprise A.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Supposedly the K'Vort class cruiser / BoP is only 350 metres long, but looks over 600 when compared to Romulan Warbirds.

[@SamuelJamesNary]

@@chrissonofpear1384 - Much of the size would also be in their wingspan and their height. The larger variants seen in TNG had much larger wingspans than Chang's did or the smaller versions seen later in DS9's Dominion War arc.

[@XMysticHerox]

I actually think the Klingon ship design (and by extension the fleet) is pretty good. Their ships work like WW2 submarines able to perform powerful first strikes against unsuspecting targets even more so than the Romulans. Their disruptors make a lot of sense here because they can use their cloak to attack unshielded targets. Hence why this is not really a disadvantage. Though everything about their society sucks so if you want to take that into account they are quite weak. Though maybe you should not since this is about the fleet after all other than that directly impacting their fighting ability like their ridiculous reliance on melee weapons in boarding and their occasional senseless charges in combat. An advantage for the fleet would be the fact that they would basically never route which is not really the case for any other factions in this match up.

[@adambielen8996]

That the Bird of Prey is their main line warship is a problem. Having more Cruiser type vessels would have benefited the Klingon Fleet saying power considerably.

[@EgorKaskader]

They do have 1 common Star Trek flaw: Long Thin Structure Struts of Unsoundness. Seriously, what's up with ST's ships being so fond of thin struts that can be easily severed? Defiant didn't have them, being instead a solid chonky block of a ship, and look how hard to kill it was.

[@Hamsammich614]

I disagree. An alpha strike style of attack (cloak-hit-run) is their biggest weakness. You might take out a single unsuspecting ship but, it wont win a battle. In order to cloak after the initial strike, you have to drop your shields. Whats worse? Their disruptor arrays are forward facing. Forcing them to engage in strafing runs and leaving their ships open to fire while coming about for follow up passes. Compared the nearly 360 degree coverage that a star fleet phaser array would offer, the bird of prey is at a tactical disadvantage at almost all times.

[@Feiora]

You do realise the submarines lost the war in WW2 right? In fact, the klingon fleet's seems to take after the german fleet of WW2, lotsa wolf packers, some cruisers but very few capital ships...

[@Feiora]

@@Hamsammich614 Well the idea is that when you're attacking its against easy prey, but when its a combat rdy opponent to bank at an angle and try to keep the beams off you until you cloak, instead of just going straight... If need be you can pivot and come about to fire again without going to cloak, but this is dangerous since the longer without cloak the more chance the enemy vessel has of hitting your aging vessel and causing it to break down...

[@rockerboyrage1609]

It should be noted that Klingons are relentless when it comes to war. In an alternate timeline, the Empire fought the Federation for 20+ years and was winning.

[@SilverFox-qr1ci]

The Klingons on TOS were used to represent the Soviet Union. We all know how they were at heath and safety. Also, all Klingons are shock forces!

[@ernstschloss8794]

Heath? Were they some kind of alien-origyn bush?

[@ernstschloss8794]

Btw, by 1985 the USSR had four times the number of doctors and hospital beds than the US. And while they DID faced under-fundment in the 80s ( basically, when everything went down the sink) they were on pair with the West during the 60s and 70s. Safety...well. I guess I'll give you that mate. They had their issues...

[@Feiora]

@@ernstschloss8794 Chernobyl springs to mind...

[@MrSCOTTtheSCOT]

Aye laddie the biggest shock, is the smell of them!

[@ernstschloss8794]

@@Feiora Yep, lile 3 Mile island, or Fukushima. Shit happens...soviets had their fair share, for sure.

[@CosmoShidan]

The Klingons had Imperial Intelligence, their equivalence to the Obsidian order, the Talshiar and Section 31. It made its first appearance in TOS episode the Trouble with Tribbles. I can't believe they overlooked this.

[@arthurs.9473]

Please do a 10 flaws/advantage of the only empire in Star Trek that is good: The Romulan Star Empire.

[@Mickeyminime]

Klingon's can't fight hand to hand and StormTroopers can't hit anyone. God help them if they ever bump into each other....

[@Lightman0359]

In both cases [Klingons and Stormtroopers] they only fail because of heroic plot armor [unless arrest is needed, goons cannot harm named characters]. On stormtrooper accuracy, look at the very first scene in A new Hope. Count the dead rebels vs dead stormtroopers, the only crew missed [for plot reasons] are Leia and the droids. All done without Vader needing to do anything but creep on his daughter.

[@nurse425]

A Stormtrooper fires at a Red Shirt: The Stormtrooper misses/The Red Shirt still dies....LOL, Sorry, couldn't resist!

[@astrobot4017]

Ahhh British Ben, my old friend, do you know the klingon proverb that tells us "Revenge is a dish that is best served cold"? It is very cold...in space!

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

Um general Chang... You fixed that exhaust pipe yet?😂

[@artembentsionov]

And yet you’re just as likely to boil alive if spaced without a suit. That’s because while it’s cold (only a few degrees above absolute zero), there is also no gaseous or solid medium to transfer heat from your body. Heat still radiates, but very slowly. That’s why ships have to worry about overheating rather than freezing in space. Vacuum also lowers the boiling point of liquids, causing water and blood to start evaporating.

[@astrobot4017]

@@artembentsionov You would suffocate long before that, only the spit in your mouth would start boiling in time

[@marimcgee8379]

To be Or not To be.

[@astrobot4017]

@@marimcgee8379 Cry Havoc!!! And let's slip the dogs of war!

[@BNTmodels]

at 1:16 the bridge of the ship you showed is Romulan. (after shooting the scenes the Romulan link was removed from the script)

[@nicholasmorsovillo2752]

Don't forget the Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbirds they weren't much faster than the Federation Galaxy Class Starships as Data stated in the episode 'Tin Man'.

[@davidhewitt5937]

Klingons had Klingon Intelligence. See season 3 of DS9 and the episode where O'Brien is shifting through time 5hrs at a turn. 3 Klingon Intelligence officers are caught by Odo. Also Darvin...of the TOS Tribble episode and DS9 Trials and Tribulations. He was Intelligence.

[@artembentsionov]

Point of order: the destruction of the Duras sisters was because the Enterprise’s officers tricked the Bird of Prey into cloaking, causing it to drop its shields, while leaving it momentarily exposed to enemy fire.

[@joshuawells835]

Galactic Empire, Warhammer, Starcraft, CIS, UNSC, Covenant, Federation, now Klingon Empire. This is getting ton be a very long list. Will you be covering the Romulans, Union of Allied Planets, Rebel Alliance, and United Citizen Federation fleets next or will you be ending after the Klingons?

[@gilesbarnes7456]

Look not 100% sure however they seem to be doing 2 factions from each universe so if I was to guess they may cover the Dominion Fleet/Zerg Fleet from Starcraft, probably another Warhammer 40k faction although that one is anyone's beat as their is so much to choose and that will probably be the end unless they pick maybe the United Citizen Federation Fleets and then do the bug fleet with that. Keep in mind this is more a theory than anything else.

[@gilesbarnes7456]

@Dcard Dcardian look don't get me wrong many of their points are usually very inaccurate and pointing out flaws or advantages that don't seem to be aspects of navel strength. For example I am not sure how having censorship and suppressing certain ideas really affects navel strategy seeing as some of the most powerful armies in history, The Red Army, The Whermact and the Roman Army all had very strict control of ideas either in their entirety or at particular points. And some of histories greatest generals such as Erwin Rommel and Georgy Zhukov actually thrived in such settings. But to be honest it is amusing for me to point out the mistakes in their analysis and how their humanity first attitudes are little more than a light facade of specisim against the iron fisted fanaticism of the Imperial Creed.

[@darwinxavier3516]

When watching the advantages of the Federation vid, it almost seemed like they were reading the comments on their flaws of the Fed vid and changed some things using information from the comments. I have no idea nor do I greatly care about whether their humanity first shtick is legit thinly veiled specism or just a channel gimmick to entice a certain subgroup of....strongly opinioned viewers who probably get off on power fantasy. TBH their knowledge of the various genres is a little casual. Lore Reloaded is probably one of the most knowledgeable people about Star Trek on KZbin, and even he gets certain things wrong. Usually because of his own biases. Spacedock and Templin Institute are probably the most accurate for a channel that covers a wide range of fiction. They look like they do a lot of research beforehand and barely ever get anything wrong.

[@rsbandbj1]

You forgot 1 thing, that trill had Plot armor. That armor will protect any main character until they decide to finally end them.

[@darwinxavier3516]

RIP Jadzia

[@SarukiKnight]

It wore off at the end of season 6 when she decided not to return as a full time character.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@SarukiKnight She was still gonna be a full time character afaik but wanted to do other things on the side. And the network was like NOPE FUCK YOU.

[@Kreachie]

10:54 They actually Do in STO The House of Pegh, There are even 2 Klingon Lesbians Who serve with them, They might not’ve existed in the 2200’s or 2360’s to 2380’s but they did there 11:21 Don’t forget that she (in her previous life as Curzon Dax) Actually fought besides, Kang, Kor, & Koloth

[@mackenziebeeney3764]

8:07 What was that from? That looked like an Akira class taking the hit.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

To the colonial Navy from BSG next please

[@TheBigExclusive]

#5 "Crude Weapons" ? Come on Generation Films! You're nothing but Federation Elitists! The reason Klingons also use hand-held knifes and bladed weapons (while boarding a ship) is because sometimes the enemy can disable weapons during transport. Or there was some anti-technology field in place. This was shown several times when the Federation and other aliens can disable technology. But you can't disable a Blade in your gut! Klingons know how to get the job done!

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

When you going to learn, everyones weapons is inferior to the Imperium of Man.

[@riwanramli7604]

Still klingons get their ass shot a lot. Bringin that stupid batleth instead of a better weapon. i.e. projectile weapon like M16 would be far better than a hand to hand combat in a gun fight.

[@Phenixtri]

Yea kinda flawed logic there as the best way to bypass these anti tech countermeasures is to use more primitive mechanical projectile weapons like guns for example ....... That also gets the job done buddy and its better than a bloody knife if you ask me

[@nurse425]

@@Phenixtri Exactly! Worked on the Borg, LOL. Assimilate a .50 cal. M'Fr!

[@eskreskao]

"Today is a good day to die" - Jesus H. Christ, 33 AD, Golgotha.

[@TheBigExclusive]

#7 "Too many smaller ships"????? WTF Klingons use tried and TRUE methods that they know WILL work. Klingons use only a handful of classes, keep things simple, and can easily repair their ships if required. The Federation on the other hand.... has like 30 to 50 different Starship classes (many of which experimental). It is a supply, and logistics NIGHTMARE! Seriously, who thought that was a good idea? Even Miles O'Brien commented on how hard is it to get replacement parts for ships (which made Captain Sisko frustrated).

[@Th0ughtf0rce]

Exactly. The Bird of Prey is the T-34 and the disruptor is the AK-47 of Star Trek.

[@Feiora]

Its a quality vs quantity kind of thing... The main point being they haven't really made any new ship designs (the MMO isn't included) and are constantly just revamping really old designs, which granted are easy to maintain and produce but are becoming as effective as a M5 Stuart light tank would be against a Tiger or Maus tank, even their larger vessels are starting to age and lose their edge... A ship is only 100% effective when its right off the production line which is pretty much how starfleet rolls, they may have insane number of experimental ship designs but they build one, test it, correct the problems that crop up and then make the final changes to the design blueprint and build a set number of vessels within a set time frame and then assign captains or promote new ones if need be and assign crew in a timely manner, happy that they've built a quality ship for a decent crew. As far logistics are concerned, it depends on how far away you're operating from a starbase or a shipyard or production center which determines how difficult it is to be supplied, BOTH Federation and Klingon Empire had supply issues the further out they stretched, the Klingon Empire exceedingly so with all the internal strife, the supply point your BOP just resupplied at might not be there when you return due to being destroyed by a rival House...

[@darwinxavier3516]

It's almost as if the Klingons are an allegory for the Soviet Union in many ways...

[@Feiora]

@@darwinxavier3516 well if we are comparing BOP as T-34s then yes... in fact the early T-34s were nightmarishly bad and it was only after much effort that they got the good ones we all know about today...

[@Th0ughtf0rce]

@@Feiora T-34s were never "good" tanks in traditional sense. They were tanks that fit the doctrine the Red Army had to adopt. In the case of Klingons, i suspect it's more laziness and budget than anything. Exemplified by the B'Rel, K'Vort and the gynormous BoPs in "The Defector" being no more than SFX staffers playing with the scale slider.

[@kurthkovacevic5327]

correction on #8 "Special Forces" Starfleet had special operations tng episode "Chain of Command" and section 31 can be special operation/forces but they are still a branch of intelligence, and so far no other references of other species that I saw on screen for a special forces reference, the examples you gave were intelligence agencies (similar to our CIA,MI6,DIA,) where the Klingons did have Klingon intelligence examples are DS9 episode "trouble with tribbles" and "Visionary".

[@FrankHuber]

question: is there mirror universe version of the Klingon empire? I would be grateful to hear back from an expert/fan

[@sonofaredshirt8329]

@Generation Films I quite enjoy your Channel, your essays, and your content. Always excellent and well-thought-out however I must disagree with you on point number 8. In regards to having no special operations I would ask you to review the TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles" or the Deep Space Nine sequel I believe called "More troubles more Tribbles" or possibly "Trails and Tribble-ations" (been a long time since I've seen the episode) pls pay special attention to the character of Darvin. As I recall he was a Klingon (presumably an intelligence officer) who underwent extensive reconstructive surgery to enable him to appear as a human for purposes of infiltration. Can't believe that was the one and only time they pulled that trick. Discovery notwithstanding. Keep up the great work! Liked and subscribed! Cheers.

[@hilze80]

Can you please make a video about the Goa'uld space navy from Stargate.

[@Comicsluvr]

The Klingon Empire is a good model for Japan shortly before and during WWII. The leaders were political but not capable, leadership was divided and often worked at cross-purposes, their technology was superior to many other nations in the beginning but they failed to adapt to later changes in military tech. Their culture supported a strong military ethic, the noble death in combat etc but it also meant that most of their experienced leaders died early. This left very few experienced officers to train the next generation. By the end of the war, Japanese pilots knew how to take off, fly straight and level, and attack. Dog-fighting over enemy fleets became a turkey-shoot.

[@20catsRPG]

Interesting fact, the cloaking device coming from the Romulans is a unbased supposition. We never see a Klingon ship cloak in the TOS, ever. In the episode 'The Enterprise Incident' the Enterprise crossed the Romulan neutral zone and is stopped and surrounded by 3 Romulan ships of which 2 are the Klingon D7/K'Tinga class. When they de-cloak, Scotty shouts 'That's a Klingon ship!' to which Spock replies 'Confirmation, Romulans now using Klingon design'. The reason for this was that the episode called for the Enterprise to be surrounded, out-numbered and out-gunned. However, the show only had 1 Romulan model (no CGI back then) and couldn't afford to make more so they re-used two klingon models by painting a Romulan wing design on their wings. Obviously the assumption is that the Empire made some sort of deal with the Romulans. However they could have simply sold their ships to them (just like the US sell their F-16s to other countries). Then all of a sudden, TNG comes round and Klingon ships cloak. No explanation. So people made the conclusion that Romulans traded the cloaking technology for ships. This explanation is however strictly non-canon. It was never confirmed by any characters on the shows (TNG, DS9, VOY) or production staff off-screen. The idea is frankly ridiculous. Would Romulans trade their most guarded strategic technology for a few pieces of hardware? Would the UK teach Saudi Arabia how to build nuclear missiles in exchange for oil? Dont' think so lol If we stick to canon, the Klingon empire has a cloaking device but we have no idea how they acquired it.

[@3Rayfire]

Not entirely. The original script for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock had Captain Kruge steal a Bird of Prey from the Romulans so he could go to the Genesis planet using their cloaking device. However cuts along the way meant that that mission was excised from the film, the problem being the new Romulan Bird of Prey design was already completed and in fabrication, so they just rolled with it as a new Klingon ship, with a cloaking device. Every prequel series of course chose to ignore most of that though, going back to Enterprise Klingons had the classic Bird of Prey design even though the nomenclature started out as signature Romulan. That led to the theory that Romulans got Klingon ships with faster warp drives and the Klingons got the cloaking device in trade. The only thing that even comes close to confirmation is Worf's assertion in _The Neutral Zone_ that the Romulans attacked Khitomer when they were supposed to be their allies. Even then the time frame is way off. Not that different periods of alliance or cooperation isn't possible, just that it does nothing for the argument.

[@naturelass]

klingons may have had a tech disadvantage compared to romulans and federation but their ships were designed to be quick mass produced war machines and klingons due to their considering of a death in battle is honourable had no issues with suicide runs to take an enermy out with them, also their crude weapons did horrendous damage, energy weapons tended to be precison hits and only rpoved fatal if hit in a major area were as klingon bladed weapons could disembowl, decapitate or dismember causing death by blood lose so klingons could rampage in tight starbase or star ship corridors and the other races who tended to be ranged weapon reliant rarely had any close range weapons to defend with add to that the redundent organs klingons had and their brute strength and klingons were leathal if they got close enough to an enermy to get in to bladed weapon range, nearly every single organ a klingon had including the spinal coloumn had a secondary back up.

[@EddyNoiz]

wait. if your doing the federation and Kinglon does that mean you will do other fleets from 40k like Hive Fleet Kraken, ext...?! that would be sweet.

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Imo the klingon ships and culture is as Awesome as it is flawed.. Yet they were practically the race which saved the Alpha Quadrant in the Dominion War

[@darwinxavier3516]

I thought that was the Prophets and their disappearing magic trick :P

[@badmojo90]

correction the Klingons did indeed have a secret intelligence service; only mentioned once offhand in the TV series but more often in the books called the "Shadow Legion" and in the books are painted as a brutal league of assassins of which are rarely talked about due to the fact that it is their purpose to be unseen and unheard, their very existence itself was a closely guarded secret. Unlike the Romulans or the Cardassians whom used their own as enforcers and made them 'infamous' the klingons believed a secret force should remain secret.

[@stephandolby]

The "necks" on Klingon ships, particularly the K'tinga, are vulnerable - the Vor'cha went some way to addressing this particular issue. Also, they do focus most of their weaponry on forward arcs - fire, cloak and hide until you can do it again.

[@Battleship009]

I know who the Klingons could defeat in CQC: Tau.

[@Viguier89]

They can't even fight in melee!

[@g0tm04]

Battleship009 kittens could beat Tau in CQC

[@Viguier89]

@@g0tm04 Kitten, do you mean the Captain General of the Adeptus Custodes ?

[@g0tm04]

Viguier89 no, actual kittens but dem glistening chests doe

[@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954]

A stiff breeze could defeat the Tau in close quarters combat. Unfortunately for the breeze, they would likely shoot it to death before it could.

[@TonySalazar933]

Hey British Ben, is it true I gotta know what a crumpet is to understand cricket?

[@MTurnerfromKY]

How do I get your screen saver? I have a MAC and I don't have the starfield... thanks.

[@GALAXIE67]

Great review/video!!👍☯️👍

[@StNicholasBrown]

Love these Star Trek vids keep it up 🖖

[@toddfox1559]

Getting their ass kicked by Jadzia Dax does count because she had all of Curzons knowledge of the Klingons and fighting. And getting their ass kicked by Odo well they knew he was a changeling so they were asking for it.

[@jesusmora9379]

and also DS9 is not canon

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

DS9 is most certainly is canon

[@jesusmora9379]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 there is no star trek in it, it was not made by rodenberry, it ignores all the canon and lore to make it more star wars shooty shooty with violence and turns the federation into a military force, throwing all the discovery, pacifism, utopia and moral superiority out the window. it is canon in the same way that abrams kelvin timeline is. the st universe makes more sense without it.

[@BrotherDerrick3X]

@@jesusmora9379 in many ways, Roddenberry was full of shit.

[@victoryanguas6666]

@@jesusmora9379 Starfleet is the military. Just they have other tasks like exploration in times of peace

[@1stKingKazma]

Ben whats the Greatest weaknesses for humanity against Klingon threat?

[@Clee-os6pv]

Can't wait for the Romuluan fleet. And more about the Romuluan Star Empire. Hail Romulus and Remus! And Jolan tru!

[@Emperor_HRE]

I love the video but whenever you were talking about the obsidian order and section 31 you said that Klingons had no agency but they have Klingon intelligence I believe but if I am wrong let me know

[@kirkmorrison6131]

The phrase " Today is a good day to die" is a Native American saying better translated as" Today is as good a day as any," When going into battle.

[@TheOnlyFMP]

I might have a point to add: The idea to rather die in battle instead of retreating might weak the KE in a major conflict. This also happened to the the Japanese Empire later in WW2 war. They wasted resources pulling of attacks of no strategic value, getting equipment destroyed and letting pilots kill themselves instead allowing them to return to base after they have spend their ammunition and fuel or facing defeat.

[@tm502010]

I think the private and compartmentalized means of owning ships among the great houses was a big issue too. It meant that old ships stuck around, a LONG time. They were patched up and refurbished, but not incredibly upgraded. D7 and D9 ships stuck around long after they could easily be destroyed by other orgs and species. It meant museum pieces were still used to fight battles.

[@thehumanoddity]

They are kinda like Japan during the Shogun era.

[@bentonmarcum8509]

11:49 what is that picture from?

[@Lokiawa]

As mentioned by some commenters the KDF does have their version of C.I.A./M.I.6, but they keep their operative's association with their service as secret as Section 31 does, unlike the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar where they flaunt their rank/association around for power and fear. The KDF's "battleship/Dreadnought" is the Nehg'Var (NEG, like nag but instead of an 'a' use 'e'-VAR, like far but with 'v').

[@scottbraun2457]

I thought it was funny, but of course, well though out, and... nailed the hit right on the hammer ..lol. Got it right I'm sure enough. I am waiting eagerly for the next show.

[@mtrich8113]

I love Klingons!!! But this makes sense by why Worf was always getting his ass handed in most of the fights he was in. Klingons are the type that dive into a pool without water and don't care if they get hurt.

[@mikeyjames1000]

Every time I watch your uploads I need my fix of sto

[@MikhaelAhava]

Good to see you sir!

[@Ajunta]

Well, to challenge your superiors on a klingon ship has certain rules. You don't have to "look at your back", because any challenge has to be open and with good reason. Any dishonourable action would be the end of any career, and probably life.

[@Kualinar]

You forgot the basic shape of Klingon's ships. That long, thin, neck between the bridge and the rest of the ship is a grave weakness.

[@198of505]

Okay, Dax was 300 + years old, was like family to 3 of the greatest warriors of the Empire! You trying to tell me they didn't teach her some fighting styles?

[@BrotherDerrick3X]

Yes. Kang, Koloth, and Kor were the greatest warriors the Klingons produced since Kahless the Unforgettable. Kang knocked Kirk on his ass. Very few Klingons could make that claim.

[@strivingforheaven]

I don't think that the Star Trek TV shows or movies ever brought this point up but I used to play the board game Star Fleet Battles and there was a very major flaw with the Klingon fleet brought out in that game. There weren't enough Klingons to completely man their warships and there were tasks on board which the Klingons would have found too demeaning or odious to do themselves. For these tasks each vessel actually carried a fairly substantial compliment of alien conscripts (read:slaves) to manage. As a result of this each vessel had various security stations throughout the ship to maintain control of the conscripts. If those security stations could be neutralized then (at least in Star Fleet Battles) there was a significant risk that the conscript crew would revolt, taking the ship out of the battle, at least temporarily. Also, the security stations were manned by Klingons which meant that the full Klingon compliment was never actually available for other actions.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

There was that episode of DS9 with Klingon special ops forces. I think they did something to a replicator

[@DavidWatersJames]

1:26 "Rustbuckets" from a Brit, who's ENTIRE Navy is nothing but. That's rich !

[@ReatuKrentor]

What is the source of the clip at 8:06?

[@khornedmaple]

3:35 So... basically Feudal Japan??

[@stevenlally8599]

Ben it's negh'var pronounced 'neg-var'.

[@GenerationFilms]

thanks

[@osricsbruk]

And it's pronounced 'vee jer', not vuggerr!

[@ZacLowing]

@@osricsbruk They even say it in the movie, many times. Maybe the British get a dubbed version...

[@darwinxavier3516]

Well the whole point was that the aliens read a partially covered "Voyager" label on the probe so it looked like V ger. Unless Brits pronounce their V's differently like how they say Zed for Z.

[@osricsbruk]

Nope. Even here in the UK it's vee her. We don't need films to be dubbed from American to British. We created the English language!

[@90lancaster]

Klingons would usually only challenge for a superior role if they had support to do so - or if their superior officer was seen as incompetent, a Klingon who just killed an officer who was like by the crew would find they might "have an accident" or be unsupported in combat - they'd basically not get any back up in a fight and be at risk of being killed more easily as well as some Klingon Houses would quite likely hire an assassin to have someone killed if they went and killed their heir for a weak reason or even challenge them themselves. Also loyalty would be rewarded too - a vessel's commander might recommend a 1st officer for a ship of their own or sing their praises to high command increasing their chances of transfer to another ship at a higher rank - killing your superior is more a way to get rid of lousy leadership than it is to succeed in every situation. Klingon do actually like each other - they don't go around randomly murdering each other on a whim - unless they are less than stellar examples of their race - but bad leadership and a lust for combat can lead to issue that can not lead to a well run ship. perhaps over all The Federation runs their ships poorly in some ways and the Klingons poorly in others. There is politics to consider too - if you 1st officer was the son of your patron you are going to try to keep him alive and teach him to be a good officer. if it turns out he's a bad apple then you would want to get rid of him as quickly as possible - but in a non-fatal way. Or even identify if they are actually good at something else. Klingon Culture is kinda cyclical and sometimes is very aggressive and expansionist and other times quite insular. Also the people we see are Political and Miltary types - if you are a Klingon Agronomist then you likely think in very different ways. The principles of Honor would be applied in a less violent way by attacking life - buy doing what you do with zeal. that would be the way they express honor - So I fully expect there is a significant portion of the Klingon Population that do not want to got Stovakor at all - they'd likely have a completely different idea. But Star Trek is kinda poor at showing this - but I'd recommend novels like The Final Reflection, The Vulcan Academy Murders and the IDIC epidemic and even a Flag Full of Stars that show more nuance for Star Trek's Alien races than an under developed Space Viking you see on TNG. We see Worf have a complex emotional life - so why the heck wouldn't all Klingon have such complexities too ? It's kinda a form of racial profiling to show them as angry thugs. or jokes.

[@jaredloveless]

Is ths about "Flaws" or "Floors" of the Klingon Empire?

[@Raz.C]

10:30 Technically, the Federation _didn't_ have section 31. They had Starfleet Intelligence. If you're going to compare something to the Tal Shiar/ Obsidian Order, it would be Starfleet Intelligence. Section 31 was a secret organisation, not a recognised (even if still restricted) national agency. Also, Starfleet Int. and Sec. 31 had very different objectives. You need a report on enemy activity/ personal proclivities of politicians/ etc..., you read Starfleet Intelligence reports. If you need a convoluted plan, where a friendly Romulan politician is disgraced and arrested by the Tal Shiar, so she won't pose a threat to the Federation in the future, and you need to do it in such a way as to discredit any mention of section 31, then it's section 31 who does the dirty work (I'm sure you know the DS9 episode I'm referring to).

[@Bonekraka]

I don't remember where I heard it didn't the Klingon empire have the Black Fleet as their special ops ...might have been in a game just asking about?

[@Freddie1980]

How are Klingon ships rust buckets? Klingons take pride in keeping the equipment in combat ready state and no captain would allow his ship to fall into disrepair through neglect.

[@MultiTomcat67]

Some confusion in #8. "Special Operations" equated to Romulan, Cardasian & Star Fleet Intelligence agencies. Special Operations means fighting units like SEALS not CIA or Russia's FSB. There is Klingon Intelligence.

[@artembentsionov]

You know, despite those flaws, almost every time they show a Klingon-Federation war (Discovery, that one alternate reality TNG episode), the Klingons seem to be winning.

[@NiraSader]

8:40 so the Klingons were the original Tal’Darim?

[@nobleman9393]

In Tal'darim society, killing someone is legal only if you challenge someone to a duel.

[@samdog8087]

Please cover the Klingon/Tribble war.

[@mjohnson5030]

00:14 [Jerry Seinfeld] "THAT was a wicked googly!"

[@thomashill6347]

Well done informative and correct in many ways But I feel that with the right leader a Klingon attack force is deadly. Plus I love the designs of there ships.

[@GenerationFilms]

We will have an advantages video coming in a few days....

[@thomashill6347]

@Aditya Shivam Parashar it is wonderful that we have the right to our opinion, and that is yours, long live Star Trek

[@cthulhu626]

In Star Trek Online they do have a special ops team. House Peg, equivelant to the Tal Shiar and Section 31

[@Referee001uk]

The Vor’cha attack cruiser will always be my favourite Klingon vessel

[@lawrenceschuman5354]

Many miners died? The ones left on that remaining section of Praxis weren't turned to jelly by the shock?

[@gxxlee123]

Their use of small ships and old ships may possibly come from the area of space with limited resources. Maybe I have heard/read both that their area has resources and doesn't.

[@KnightsWithoutATable]

To be fair, Bajorans are used to setting ambushes and fighting against superior numbers. And you really shouldn't count Dax kicking Klingon butt against them since the symbiote was the ambassador to the Klingon Empire right before that host. Dax has decades of practice with a bat'leth and experience in combat with Klingons.

[@DavidWatersJames]

10:16 You mistake 100 year old DESIGNS, for ships that old. STUPID ASSUMPTION. Klingon ships get continually upgraded. They are known for large numbers of PROVEN DESIGNS.

[@nicolaiveliki1409]

The Federation on the other hand really do just give old ships to novice captains. You want a new Warp Core for that ship? Build it from scratch! That's one reason why seasoned Federation engineers are so good...

[@SpaceEngineerErich]

Watch The Way of The Warrior again. Jadzia pronounces the name of the ship(which is also its class) the Negh'Var. Also in the DS9 episode, Visionary, There is a group of Klingons on the station that Odo suspects are from Klingon Inteligence. I assume that is some kind of special ops organization. All in all though, I agree. The Klingons bark is far worse than their bite.

[@Liopleurodon]

The biggest Flaw is missing: Affraid of Tribbles, the greatest thread to the Empire! And of course there are still songs sung about the great tribble hunt.

[@robertpolityka8464]

When it comes to a Klingon Bird of Prey, two things come to mind: 1- Sulu claims that the Klingon Bird of Prey has a complement of about a dozen officers and men. If the Enterprise-A has a crew of 400, then The Enterprise have an advantage of about 33 to 1, in terms of manpower. 2-Kruge claims that a Federation Battlecruiser has a 10 to 1 advantage in terms of firepower.

[@artembentsionov]

The Terrans also used the “Klingon promotion”. In practice, though, one always has to keep in mind the superior officer’s familial and personal connections. That’s why Mirror Spock didn’t want to kill Tiberius - the latter’s friends would make sure Spock regretted it.

[@danielyeshe]

The Klingons had Klingon Intelligence. It is mentioned in Visionary.

[@Karagianis]

I've often felt that Praxis would be a good explination for why there are still old B'rel and K'Tinga class ships flying in the TNG era and even upto the Dominion war. It took so long to repair the damage that not only did old ships have to be kept in service long past their prime but they probably had to keep building old designs, the Vor'cha, when it shows up in TNG may even be the first new design they've constructed since Praxis blew up. Of cause irl it was just paramount being too cheap to pay for new ship models, hence why Starfleet is still using Excelsior class ships, but it's a nice piece of head canon for me. :)

[@3Rayfire]

I think Klingons of all the peoples have a very if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality.

[@WildeFyre69]

My God mate, have you seen the first movie? It is pronounced "Vee-jer", although you could be forgiven if you got the name out of the novel for the movie where it was printed as "Vejur" as opposed to the correct spelling: "V'ger". Great video as usual. Thanks for your time and effort.

[@KiithNaabal]

Or maybe the Klingon Secret Intelligence Organisation was THAT good, that no one ever new of them! ;-) in Discovery we do get to see something resembling such an organisation!

[@Gyrannon]

To be fair - Dax (The Trill) has hundreds of years behind them (Symbiote & Trill), and since one of those lives was deeply into Klingon Tradition, and not to mention another was an Infamous Assassin, those Klingons were facing someone that could be equaled to fighting Kahless. Basically, they stood no chance against Dax. It was further compounded by the fact that Jedzea (no idea if I spelled her name right) was also married to Worf who was also quite the expert in hand to hand combat and frequently trained with him. And also, what can a Melee weapon do to a Changling? Nothing. They'd have to shoot him to do any actual damage, otherwise trying to punch, kick, head butt, body slam, or stab would be utterly pointless. Personally I wonder why Odo even bothers, they can't hurt him. Course that clip could've been when his "Changling" status was taken away, but he's fought people even when he was a Changling - he could just wrap his body around them and strangle them til they pass out. And like others have mentioned, most of those boarding party Klingon members are expendable & typically just there to achieve their first glory in battle. Now if they were more like Martok, then their losses would be rare than common.

[@michiganborn8303]

It's amazing the Klingons were even able to advance enough to even obtain space flight little lone FTL (Faster Than Light) travel.

[@karlsmith2570]

As for as Klingons being bested by a female Trill, to be fair, Jadzia Dax had training in Klingon Martial Arts from her previous host Kurzon Dax In addition, Odo was able to Shift his form to allow any of the Klingons blade weapons to pass right through him