#10 Tesla Cathode Deep Dive // Hardcore Particle Engineering

[@musaran2]

Again that feeling I stumbled upon a confidential high-stake briefing...

[@entspannter_hase]

Fantastic research Jordan! Crazy how an element that most people have never heard about could power everybody's cars in a few decades.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks Chris!

[@peter.g6]

The word tungsten caught me off guard, it's called wolfram in most European languages. That being said, I've heard about it in the context of counterfeiting gold, as it has the same density.

[@entspannter_hase]

@@peter.g6 Same here, also knew it only as Wolfram.

[@jameshoffman552]

@@peter.g6 - I was familiar with tungsten from childhood, as I would extract the filaments from spent light bulbs and zap them with 9 volts for the pyrotechnics.

[@patreekotime4578]

@@jameshoffman552 yup, lightbulbs was my thought!

[@drewcameron3103]

The highest quality video for information as usual and they seem to keep getting better. Huge fan. Keep it up!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks Drew!

[@Sekir80]

@@thelimitingfactor I'd like to hear Drew Baglino's thoughts on your work. ;)

[@marcusnash2001]

You prolly dont care but does anyone know of a way to get back into an instagram account? I was stupid lost the account password. I would appreciate any help you can give me.

[@terrellwayne5473]

@Marcus Nash Instablaster ;)

[@marcusnash2001]

@Terrell Wayne I really appreciate your reply. I found the site thru google and im trying it out now. Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.

[@kevin42]

Fyi: most modern lithium-ion batteries can be charged upto 4.45V. Although their usually only pushed to roughly 4.35 - 4.4V in order to preserve cycle-life. A 100 - 150 mV difference can increase the cycle-life by upto 3x.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Exactly

[@kevin42]

@@thelimitingfactor clarification: the "upto 3x" cycle-life increase refers to the usual 400 cycles you can cram out of an LCO (with some cathode dopants) based chemistry at a D.O.D of 100 - 0%. Charging the cell upto 4.45V would limit it to roughly 130 cycles (i.e., 3x lower cycle-life). TLDR: they dont push them upto 4.45V in order to preserve the same cycle-life as "normal" 4.2 - 4.3V cells. Not the other way around.

[@MrBadgas]

You must be getting “the bends” from these deep dives. This one was so dense I took a break and will likely watch it two more times. Word of warning, when you come up, make sure you rise slower than your bubbles. Great work as usual. Thank you!

[@bettyswallocks6411]

The vocals are recorded at 0.25x to account for the HeliOx mix.

[@PMI551]

This channel is a diamond in the rough.

[@snoqualmiepatkanim]

“Throw me the lamp!”

[@timlarsson1451]

Boom! Always a great day when Jordan drops another video! 🚀

[@cybergigafactory]

Great research as everytime. Little hard to wrap my head around but you explain it as good as I can imagine. Thanks.

[@samirould-ali7815]

I love your research I really like watching it even though I don’t understand nearly enough to comment 😊✌🏼

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

I feel the same way, mostly over my head, but I feel if I keep watching some of it will rub off on me.

[@thelimitingfactor]

I think this is about as technically complex as I'll ever get. The subsequent videos should all be more absorbable.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

@@thelimitingfactor please don't change on my behalf, I remember reading AES (audio technical) journals when I first started in audio, I let the info wash over me for years, but after a while I actually started to understand it.

[@samirould-ali7815]

@@thelimitingfactor you better keep doing what you’re doing! So I don’t have to! 😂 and what about these solid State batteries from Toyota? And all the goodness Graphene batteries where supposed to bring to us? 😊😊 I know you going to unravel all these things to us!

[@samirould-ali7815]

@@DaveDugdaleColorado yeah I always watch it and say to myself 🤔 maybe I’ll learn something new that I can relate to THIS time! I am really interested in Batteries (also e-bikes and stuff) so it’s not just Tesla! I want to know how far we are with Batterie tec because there is sooooo good use for other applications also as soon as they break through a certain threshold! It will completely transform so many things in the world!

[@kunalguleria9617]

It will be remembered in history that you were the greatest Tesla ACC researcher !

[@ResumedPausing]

Just want to say that I'm studying materials engineering for my undergrad and this video is music to my ears

[@thelimitingfactor]

😊

[@kylecramer8489]

Very cool to see Jeff Dahn and co. Using first principles thinking on Cobalt. Always check assumptions

[@hermancastberg5713]

I'm going to study material science next year, in hope of working with batteries in the future. You're channel brings a lot of inspiration! Thanks :)

[@thelimitingfactor]

Best of luck! And thanks for the support! Material's science is God's work.

[@zber9043]

Look into hot carrier solar cells too. If we can get them working then it would be huge.

[@thenimbo2]

From lightbulbs to batteries. Interesting!

[@usturakemal7]

Quite educative and well presented, thank you. I feel that I have just watched a dissertation in my university.

[@kanahn7402]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if you get an honorary doctorate for this series 🎓

[@thelimitingfactor]

😂 That would be cool!

[@andrewpintar1620]

Amazing details, research, insights and complexity writ digestible. Excellent as always. Had to keep skipping back for things to properly sink in. So good.

[@tommckinney1489]

Regarding cobalt sourcing, I'd be surprised if the cobalt producers aren't following the same protocols as tin, tungsten, and diamonds. Those raw materials were once tagged by the press as being "blood produced", and maybe they were initially, but now they have their act together and make sure the supply comes from reliable sources. It might be interesting if you did a deep dive into the cobalt industry to see if that was true.

[@TheWineroute]

Great video. The research is admirable and I won't be surprised if you are super close. Minor critique: A mouse/arrow track on the database would be a great help to us following along. I know it's cheesy but I find myself stopping the video to catch up. a pointer would help. Thank you.

[@rucvv]

Thank you so much for the video. One of the most undervalued channel. Wish majority cared more about detail rather than flashes and bangs.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hey man! No problem and thanks for your support.

[@motofunk1]

If only my high school chemistry teacher had half your ability to explain complex material.

[@id10t98]

"If only you had the patience to listen in high school chemistry class." Your HS Chemistry teacher lol

[@motofunk1]

​@@id10t98 Does make you wonder why they still try to teach teenagers anything :).

[@domgia9248]

@@motofunk1 Textbooks need more boobs.

[@morkovija]

Here comes the scoop of high-quality, high-fidelity content blasted straight up our eyeballs.

[@thelimitingfactor]

😂

[@andyonions7864]

Beautiful research. The main thing I would say is that it seems improbable that Tesla would show electron microscope images of cathode structure for work in progress. More likely a discarded step on the way, so your assertion that Tesla is not using any of the chemistries in the table is likely correct. As you say some subtle mix and possibly with multiple dopants. The rock salt coating was interesting as I'd expect this to be attacked by any electrolyte with aqueous base. Is it even possible to use an organic base for an electrolyte? The phase change 'barrier' is also very interesting. Tesla appear to be knocking on the doors of all the limits in 'liquid state' batteries. In many respects, all these strange compounds and melange of dopants is highly reminiscent of the room temperature superconductor race 30 years ago. Keep up the stunningly good work. Edit: changed semiconductor to superconductor as per comment below. Thanks.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks man and great thoughts/comments!

[@musaran2]

I think you mean superconductor race.

[@andyonions7864]

@@musaran2 yes

[@Finlaymacnab]

The rocksalt refers to the lattice arrangement of atoms not that the particle is coated in rocksalt. www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100425723#:~:text=A%20type%20of%20ionic%20crystal,a%20coordination%20number%20of%206.

[@jeanclaudewellness8274]

Wow, this research work was insane. Well done Jordan. So basically a material so brittle like tungsten tend to form more omogeneus and organized crystals. This is true also for boron, the make some type of sintethic diamonds to cut other materials. Carbon could be the best of all if organized in a 3d nano structure. We were talking about dopants last time... now i have a request for you: i can't find nothing about the last developments of Schwarzite... maybe this could be and idea for a future episode of yours... you know, how the batteries can become in 30 to 50 years. A bit science fiction, but with some actual basis. Thanks again for your great effort👍

[@BookProX]

The most challenging thing is in pure quantum mechanics. For example, due to their large volume, the Li-ions will disturb the quad-shelved layers of the cathode to some small degree. Probably, a special material must be somehow invented that allows stretch and expansion of the cathode to be consistent and repeatable over hundreds or even a couple of thousand charge cycles. Fantastic video, btw.

[@jamesowens7176]

As always, a great, easy to follow, in-depth video. These are some of my favorite videos on YT!

[@geoyoshinaka5251]

The most in-depth analysis I have had the pleasure of seeing! Thank you so much for your extensive research :)

[@sagetmaster4]

V nice as usual. These chemical gradients are seen very commonly in geologic settings, even ones with highly enriched extreme outer rims. You've got me thinking on how that can be leveraged in a production setting

[@thelimitingfactor]

Fascinating! Makes me think of geodes

[@richarrd]

Great vid again, Jordan! I totally agree with your analysis of the German 2018 Tesla Teardown: the 2.8 wt% of Co are not referring to the Co-percentage of the transition metal site of NMC, which should be around 10% at that time. Keep up the good work!

[@Finlaymacnab]

Very well done! Those Boron doped crystals were super neat. Nanoparticle synthesis is crazy complex in my experience and there are so many variables it's daunting to imagine what the Tesla process will actually turn out to be. This is doubly true for wet chemical "one pot processes". The one this I'm willing to bet is that they are using a dedicated coating on the particles in those SEM pics. They look way too uniform and thick to be a naturally segregated heterostructure in my opinion. You're entering post-doc level complexity with these vids! Love it.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks man! 🤠

[@joewilliams1358]

The film on the outside of the particle is likely the metal used to secure the particles to the slide holder used for the electron microscope.

[@josephvanorden3782]

Your research is detailed and awesome beyond belief. Great work!

[@hyric8927]

This was very interesting. I'll be looking forward to your next video on other Cathode materials. I'm very curious about LFP as that holds good promise for stationary energy storage. That's something that's sorely needed in places where new renewable energy projects are getting harder to justify due to already being crowded with renewables.

[@thelimitingfactor]

LFP is ideal for energy storage :)

[@garymenezes6888]

My brain is happier now as it has learnt a lot from this video

[@n2l2l]

As always great content Jordan. Take care man. All the best from Poland

[@MrVelociraptor75]

Great video Jordan! I think this one will definitely be one I'll watch a couple of times! 😅 I very much enjoy these deep tech dives though! Thank you

[@jacobellinger8027]

THAAANKKK YOUUU!! this was much more approachable to understand.

[@id10t98]

To really understand the working mechanisms of the phase transitions as the battery is charged and discharged, one needs to look at the electron shell structure of the elements involved to see how they give and take electrons in order to get an atomically magical understanding of the process. It really is amazing how metals behave at an atomic level.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤩. If you have any links or animations, I'd love to check it out

[@tommckinney1489]

The "white film" you mention @time 20:30 could be an artifact from the SEM photo. If the photo was shot in back scatter mode, then the bright color would be a higher atomic number than the primary particles in the interior. Also, the outside seems to be a smaller crystal than the primary particles. My guess is the "white film" is really a pure tungsten coating.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Interesting!

[@yueibm]

Definitely subscribed and sharing with colleagues. Thank you!

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤜🤛😃

[@linc234]

been watching since pre batt day, probably the best pure info video yet! Small suggestion, add sound effects to transitions. I kinda expected a guitar riff for "Hardcore Particle Engineering". Anyway great content!

[@teevee5233]

Makes my brain hurt in a good way. Thanks for these deep dives!

[@tomboushel2357]

Thank you for this amazing in-depth analysis. You could be teaching a masters level course at MIT. Are you planning an update on Novonix or Talga, with all of the changes in their worlds? Please keep up the great work. You are the best of the best.

[@marchelgeson]

Am I wrong in thinking there may be a typo in the last table of the video (32:21)? Your label for the "Sweet Spot?" option is "W1.0 - NCMA 94". I would have guessed it to not have the "C" in it. As in "W1.0 -NMA 94". Really love the well researched content balanced with the speculative ideas of how to apply it. It would not surprise me at all to find out they go with some small amount of Tungsten dopant in their eventual cathode. Maybe even less than 1%. Wish there was more published research but this info is so valuable it is going to be almost certainly proprietary by anyone doing it.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Aha! You did find a typo my friend!

[@quantumlotus6033]

I'd like to know how the new tabless design would affect chemistry choices now that temperatures during charge and dis-charge could be better moderated. Thermal stability may be less of an issue going forward.

[@emmettthompson2167]

Another fantastic video, exceptional research and explanations. According to WikiPedia the only North American tungsten production is in Canada. I hope someone in the Tesla / Battery KZbin community does a video on the supply chain and availability world wide. I'm curious about the manufacturing process and hoping Tesla can do it on site (if they're using Tungsten).

[@bowesterlund3719]

Once again, top work and truly super interesting! thank you!

[@andrewwasilewski229]

Great content with great visuals! I seen an interview where you talked about how you like to invest in 10x- 100x stocks. Would love to see a video on some of the stocks you own. Your PATREON page would explode!!!

[@manoschristakis]

Love your in-depth analysis. Do you intend on doing such detailed research on the mining processes of lithium and nickel in the future?

[@socialskillsnyc]

this is amazing, thank you for all of this information and thank you for presenitng it in this way. Inspiring.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hey, thanks for watching! Not many people watched this video 😁

[@JanneWolterbeek]

Thanks, indeed a deep-dive, and I love those!

[@MarkTimeMiles]

Deep Jordon. Thank you 🙌

[@tommckinney1489]

I'm surprised the LME doesn't list tungsten. My guess is that they do, but you have to have an account to see it. Same with the Metal Bulletin.

[@joesmackunstable]

I appreciate the recap. Great work!

[@MagnumiPad]

Stunning work Jordan

[@thdjjfsfh]

Great work, Jordan. I joined the channel to help you with the bills.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks man! I appreciate it. That brings me one step closer to full-time

[@matthewmanzi9504]

Great video as always. This might be your the deepest dive yet. I would love to hear your take on Jeff dahn becoming the chief scientific officer at novonix.

[@thelimitingfactor]

My view is that he's doing it for the reasons he said he is: To support local businesses. He's pretty much retired now. What better way to spend it than with his son (who also works there), one of his favourite students (Chris Burns), and by working with the local community. I don't view it as extravagantly as the market appears to.

[@matthewmanzi9504]

@@thelimitingfactor Thanks!

[@marianvalentin9030]

What a lecture! Neverending thank´s.

[@20_percent]

yo imagine having 4 seats, trunk space and able to keep up with a lamborgini.

[@rare_wubbox360]

Im deeply impressed. 👏Your the man Jordan👍🇳🇴

[@JohnABrady]

Hey Jordan - awesome content - conceptually deep just short of academic materials science … thanks! Can you put all of the Lithium Mine to Battery Line 10 part series into a playlist on your site - even if you’re not done with the series yet? I didn’t see one with that name at your channel site.

[@thelimitingfactor]

There is one...it should be at the bottom of the main page...battery day recap...lithium mine to battery line

[@johntheux9238]

High quality content.

[@YaMumsSpecialFriend]

As always, fascinating🖖🏼

[@lifewalk244]

The 4.3V is because you just measure it against a pure Lithium anode (called half cell tests) and not a graphite or Graphite/Si anode which increases your voltage window. The 4.3V hear are ~4.2V in a reall full cell. You could go to 4.25 or 4.3V in a full cell. In fact for certain cathodes you (e.g. Co Free) you would probably need to go to 4.3-4.45V.

[@thelimitingfactor]

GREAT comment!

[@NickoSwimmer]

Excellent deep dive Jordan! Great sleuthing on what this future chemistry may be. I've got a basic question about the battery voltage increase you mentioned: assuming a voltage increase is just a thicker separator layer, how does energy density at "pack level" improve exactly? Wouldn't it require more volume?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hmmm, I don't understand the question. "a voltage increase is just a thicker separator layer"

[@NickoSwimmer]

@@thelimitingfactor Could be totally wrong, but I assumed that that battery voltage worked the same way as charged parallel plates in electronics, V = E*d. Assuming electric field "E" is constant, would a thicker separator, "d" (mentioned at 0:55 in your video) create the increased cell voltage? If this is true, wouldn't the overall cell volume need to be larger as a result (more material going to the separator layer). Seems like an increase in battery voltage leads to a decrease in energy density.

[@GGshawn]

thank you from battery develope engineer.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks for watching!

[@HourRomanticist]

I love this dad community.

[@bradturner3795]

Excellent deep dive on the cathode! Did you get a sense for what the small particles are in Tesla's cross-section? Interspersed within the larger crystals appears to be a smaller round particles. Are those doping materials?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Could just be fragments of material resulting from slicing the particle.

[@jameshoffman552]

The tungsten-doped particles don't appear to have distinct primary particles (crystals) as if the tungsten disrupts the lattice symmetry (W is far from Mn, Co, Ni, and has a more complex orbital geometry). I don't see that in the interior of the glimpsed particle from Battery Day, the crystals being well defined except in a surface layer. That makes me think that the particles are first formed in a way that produces the radial crystal elongation (maybe just through temp gradients during crystallization) then are subjected to a treatment with tungsten that allows it to diffuse only a short distance through the outermost crystals, forming the white crust. The crust's storage capacity is immaterial, given its tiny fraction of particle volume, as is its tungsten-laden mass. I suspect the crust is far more than 1% W, since its characteristics appear to lie in-between the halo of the tungsten-doped particle and its interior.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Great thoughts!

[@brucemiller2172]

No mention of temperature variations when growing crystals? My batteries will live at -30C. Any differences during charging?

[@nigelweir3852]

A great video again , may more follow

[@jambay4785]

To (sort of) quote Breshnev (sp? Russian leader in 60's) "Quantity has a quality all of it's own." :)

[@patreekotime4578]

It is interesting to think that the two big breakthroughs Tesla may have made with battery chemistry both involve areas that had been somewhat ignored by researchers because they were considered not worth pursuing. And both because of material expansion problems. My only question is if this will unlock whole new territories for research, or if there is relatively little potential to be gained in the long run (from silicon anodes and high nickel cathodes), or if different approaches (like solid electrolytes) are a better research investment? I'm skeptical of the solid state press releases we have seen so far, but that doesnt mean that real breakthroughs that really outperform current chemistries arent possible in the future. In other words, are they investing in short term solutions or long term ones?

[@thelimitingfactor]

I think short term vs long term isn't the best way to look at it. New lithium ion tech has so far always adapted to existing equipment. This means whatever new tech comes along for lithium ion will be most likely designed to be used on existing lines. Beyond that, old battery chemistries don't die. We're still making and using NiMH and lead acid. There was no reason to shut down or replace those lines because the economics still work.

[@patreekotime4578]

@@thelimitingfactor Sure. I suppose if this direction of development gets them cells that gets to a certain energy density, longevity, and price point... it should only get cheaper for them to produce as they go. Especially with their form factor and manufacturing advantages it seems like competitors wont be reaching price parity with any cutting edge chemistries any time soon. Esp not when comparing the price advantages of LFP.

[@ahdefga]

Awesome video, thank you!

[@jimdetry9420]

Good job.

[@frederickstirnkorb3094]

Wow this is complicated engineering. Is there no computer based modeling available to speed up the materials based research? I know they are advancing that technology in organic chemistry just wondering if it is available for this type of chemistry. Maybe a thought for another video.

[@musaran2]

There are rules & tools, but sadly atomic interactions are absurdly hard to compute and as a result many material properties are surprise finds. Example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YInMn_Blue

[@rohaterdogan9675]

thank you

[@lystfiskerlars]

and Elon replies "oh... didn't think of that, let's try it out!"

[@Havox7]

Speaking hypothetically, if a battery were created that had an enormous voltage range would it be possible for electronic components to support that voltage range? A Step down or up that can support that large swing when the batteries are put into series. It's bothersome trying to use Lithium batteries now on inverters because they are usually designed around lead acid voltages. I would image the same would happen if a battery came out with a very large voltage range.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Not sure! Electrical engineering isn't something I've investigated.

[@KBeKind]

Thanks Jordan. You are da man!

[@MrFoxRobert]

Thank you!

[@jamesowens7176]

It's too bad the Boron doping isn't what they're going with. It seems like a spinoff battery maker called 'The Boron Company" is a missed opportunity! ;-)

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤣💯

[@larryteslaspacexboringlawr739]

cathode nickel hype, get motivated, get focused

[@markumbers5362]

Hi Jordan I just went to open the latest Patreon video and it does not recognise as a Patreon. Is this a glitch in the system or has my membership lapsed.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hi Mark, all the videos on Patreon should be accessible. If there is on that isn't working let me know. I know one was temporarily unaccessible to everyone last night for a few hours.

[@AnIceCrasher]

Looove your videos 😁

[@eriktamlin]

Ooohhh nice! Gonna watch this right away! :D

[@serta5727]

Awesome!

[@joewilder]

Could you mix one of these cathodes up in your garage?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Ha! I actually don't know. Maybe I should try it

[@thinkhelpservice]

How convenient for European Metals ASX EMH that their mine has hard rock lithium and tungsten!

[@independenceindy]

Do we know if this tesla particle image is actually something they are using, or is it just some concept/render of what it might look like?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Not a render from what I can tell. I'm taking the approach for the entire Battery Day series that what was shown in the slides is accurate. This minimises speculation.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Detailed information

[@MrBobsohn]

watched your video about five times LOL :D gj

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤣 That's about what it takes! That's a year of education in one video.

[@명경민-m2w]

I might have to buy stocks of tungsten companies lol

[@calicops951]

Miss ya Morgan! And I am the one that named you! don't forget it Brother! 🤣😂🤣 Also, did you add the "no bueno" on your slides? For the heterostructure vs. homostructure can you please include "coño?' 🤣😂🤣

[@fireofenergy]

It seems cobalt would be preferable if it didn't have the human rights issues. Isn't there another way to extract it?

[@vidardanielsen3477]

Thanks for making cleaning the kitchen not as soul crushing

[@dewiz9596]

If I truly understood all this, I’d be working for Elon in Texas. No, wait, for Jeff Dahl in Nova Scotia, where they can keep the lights on. . . 😉

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

China thanks you for lowering your use of cobalt so they can get it cheaper for their other electronics

[@utube091116]

XLnt !

[@DhrunilBhavsar]

why no one is even considering mercury or mixing it into these researches.? mercury is one of the strange elements and it was used by many old civilizations for storing electric potential energy r.g. Mayans, Egyptians, and Indus even Chinese civilizations. there are documents that mentioned the use of mercury for that very specific purpose. someone should really look into this mercury thing!