100 year old Polyrhythms Vs. New Polyrhythms

I look at the musical reasons composers use polyrhythms, taking two composers over 100 years apart - Chopin and Ligeti, both wrote music filled with polyrhythms. Although their music sounds very different, their aims were surprisingly similar.
#polyrhythms #chopin #ligeti
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Nocturne Opus 15 no.2
• Chopin Nocturne Op. 15...
Étude No. 2 in A Flat Major (Trois nouvelles études)
• Chopin: Étude No. 2 in...
Ballade No. 4, Op. 52
• Chopin - Ballade No. 4...
Chopin - Fantaisie Impromptu, Op. 66
• Chopin - Fantaisie Imp...
Chopin Nocturne Op. 9 No. 3 in B Major
• Chopin Nocturne Op. 9 ...
F. Chopin : Nocturne op. 9 no. 1 in B flat minor
• F. Chopin : Nocturne o...
Josquin Des Prez: Missa l'Homme Armé Super Voces Musicales 5. Agnus Dei (2/2)
• Josquin Des Prez: Miss...
György Ligeti - Etude No. 8 "Fem"
• György Ligeti - Etude ...
György Ligeti - Études for Piano (Book 1), No. 6 [6/6] Automne à Varsovie
• György Ligeti - Études...
Ligeti Piano Concerto
• György Ligeti: Piano C...
Research:
György Ligeti's : A Polyrhythmic Study
diginole.lib.fsu.edu/islandora...
Gyorgy Ligeti: His etudes for piano and Piano Concerto - An analysis
www.academia.edu/19847330/Gyo...
Ligeti, Africa and Polyrhythm
www.jstor.org/stable/41700061...
Shawn Crowder's Video:
• How to play 21 against 22
Adam Neely's 7:11 Polyrhythm Challenge • 7:11 Polyrhythms

[@milliewx1679]

I was expecting an 1845/1985 polyrhythm.

[@K.D.Meyers]

I'll let you play that..... that's too much for me lol

[@hecksnek6158]

I think at that point, it's basically harmony

[@marktilley7222]

Well that would just be a 369/397.

[@fcandias]

Underrated comment.

[@Gilmaris]

I read the title wrong, so I was expecting 11th century polyrhythm.

[@nevets0910]

Wow! This is Polyrhythm Week for KZbin haha 👌

[@Solomonar23]

This week should go down in history as Polyrhythm Week. :)))

[@akf2000]

Haha what is UP with that

[@riccello]

I think it’s like those times when you learn a new word, suddenly it’s everywhere... our minds only notice things that are important to us at the moment...

[@nanamacapagal8342]

Maybe this month as well? Phodon released polyriddim and everyone's talking about that 7/4 beat and 122.5 bpm but the part that goes back to 4/4 in 140 bpm actually makes a perfect 8:7 polyrhythm when combined with the old meter and thus making the transition several times easier, and the "drunk" part in the middle is actually a bunch of nested tuplets. See Shawn Crowder's video about this, it's really good

[@ShawnCrowder]

Fascinating video! So interesting to get perspective and hear these concepts in a historical context.

[@joaopedroguitar2001]

Really! Who would think that composers from the renaissance period already tried to experiment with polyrythms. Such things make me think that complex issues like this one aren't that recent in music history...

[@DBruce]

Thanks Shawn. I loved your video too. Hope to see more from you!

[@ifer1280]

How does it feel to be introduced as Adam Neely's bandmate?

[@brynbstn]

Joao Carvalho those aren’t really polyrhythms, to my ear, just an awkward notation

[@artmeatj6620]

I love you Shawn

[@earfolds]

I had some nine bars, but I eight them.

[@timluyten8660]

That would be a polymeter though ;)

[@IgnatRemizov]

@John Verne No you see, seven needs to eat three squared meals a day

[@BibleStorm]

@@IgnatRemizov John got the answer, you got the equation. What a team!

[@nanayawberko3212]

I imagine some slick rapper being quite pleased with himself after coming up with this

[@saporob]

@@timluyten8660 Did you mean a polyeater?

[@WesCoastPiano]

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for with the piano alone he discovered everything." Claude Debussy

[@waynedombrowski7568]

Wow..Claude said that?! That carries a lot of weight in my book.

[@GM-yb5yg]

Some people consider all this contemporary, atonal crap, crap music. If you like beautiful, brilliant music, then chopin is obviously unmatched. If you dont like beautiful solo piano then you won't enjoy chopin.

[@mr.h4267]

What a claude.

[@diabl2master]

@@waynedombrowski7568 I know him as Claudey Baby

[@artysanmobile]

NintendianaJones64 Definitely not overstatement. His contemporaries were simply in awe at his facility on the piano. Liszt also enjoyed near-worship for his technical mastery of the instrument.

[@ticfortea]

Next time I'm flying I'll get in on the memes with a 7/47 rhythm performed with airline cutlery.

[@get-the-joke]

Boeing boom tschak.

[@egilsandnes9637]

@@get-the-joke Niiiiiice!

[@JohannesWiberg]

I was planning on doing a 6/66 rhythm on tormented souls in hell but now I'll just look like a copycat.

[@bertiewooster4719]

Perform a 9/11 Rhythm to celebrate what Karlheinz Stockhausen called “the greatest work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos”.

[@xenontesla122]

How far can this go? I really I hope no one tries playing a 9/11 polyrhythm at the World Trade Center memorial. Edit: late to the joke.

[@xenontesla122]

Seems like polyrhythms are the talk of the town right now!

[@daviddieffenderfer]

Thank you KZbin for the masterclass in polyrhythms

[@josephalvarez5315]

David Dieffenderfer seriously. 3 fantastic videos from 3 genius perspectives

[@LukeFaulkner]

I always loved that passage in the 4th ballade, but never stopped to rationalise it as 9 against 8. Delighted to have stumbled upon your excellent content!

[@arneperschel]

Same here. I have for a long time semi-consciously held this to be the most beautiful passage in all of Chopin's output. Also because it features the quintessential lush chord that could almost be called Ab9sus4 (I understand the chord, but I don't know its name).

[@mstalcup]

It's brilliant how Chopin has an upward stem in every fourth note of those triplets in the right hand. That's what makes it playable. You just have to play a fairly simple 16th note triplets against 16th notes and simply remember which notes to isolate and bring to the foreground so that the 9 against 8 emerges over the course of the two measures. I love this passage too. Seeing the score demystifies it somewhat and shows a bit of Chopin's genius at work.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

Awesome video! The Ligeti stuff is reminds me of compositions I've heard from India where a rhythmic piece is repeated at multiple time cycles and in many cases those cycles are fractional, so a piece will repeat at 1/3 or 2/3 speed all while the pulse stays steady underneath. Practicing and writing with this sort of thing has left me frustrated with physically notating measured bars of music, but it looks I could learn a lot about making it readable just by studying Ligeti's scores. Thank you!

[@crimsun7186]

These are called tihais and they are usually used to finish pieces.

[@gdvpi]

Signals Music That's your turn now!

[@felixmarques]

One of the most irritating things about notated music (and the constraints of traditional Western composition, which is so notation-based) is that it makes it really hard to quickly compose/read/interpret music that is based on patterns and altered repetition. There's music pieces that can be summed up as a couple melodic phrases and some simple instructions, but notating them is a time-consuming process that results in an ugly visual mess.

[@mstalcup]

@@felixmarques On occasion, I have written pieces in which there is no way I could have gotten the desired result by indicating meter or relative note values in any typical way, yet my instructions were organized and detailed to produce a structured performance and coherent listening experience. I would like to see more composers employing innovative ways to convey their instructions to performers.

[@eyvindjr]

@@felixmarques You obviously never worked with a DAW (digital audio work station). Just make loops at different lengths and you are good to go! For live music, yes it is a lot harder, but it is also not really part of the western musical traditions afaik. Musical notation is also an important strength of western classical music. Other classical music can also be great and complex, but they are more about performance and less about composition, a bit like jazz and folk music.

[@hadinossanosam4459]

Very interesting! That lift-off effect is clearly present in a lot of the music I listen to (e.g. Scriabin), but I never realized how it is done compositionally... will definitely be using that in my own (attempts at) compositions in future :)

[@rowodehouse6675]

I've just discovered you videos - and I'm so happy as they are really detailed and clear.

[@daviddieffenderfer]

David, this is mindblowing... Thank you.

[@scottalbers2518]

This is really an outstanding series. Thanks so much for being so thorough.

[@maxadrums]

Absolutely fantastic video. Thank you so very much for making this one.

[@amaliameier3569]

Amazing video!! I'm keen on this channel, thanks!

[@tacos1337]

David, have you heard the song 'frame by frame' by king crimson? Both guitars play in harmony in 7/16, but then, one of the guitars removes one note from the pattern, thus making it 6/16, while the other one remains in 7/16, which makes for a great effect, you'd probably love it!

[@wojciechdraminski3035]

actually there is one guitar playing in 14/8 and the other one playing in 13/8.

[@tacos1337]

@@wojciechdraminski3035 My bad, cheers for the clarification!

[@starless5668]

"Discipline" from the same album has even more complicated polyrhythms.

[@serteres32]

Bravissimo! Thank you, David Bruce.

[@5StringTheory]

Awesome video! Truly inspiring. Thanks!

[@gbmylls8148]

I love that people are talking about polyrhythms and rhythm in general! It helps bring to light that there is more to music than just pitch content. Great video ^_^

[@chugrooster2]

Hugely enjoyed this video. I'm going to use some ligeti for drum practice now! I have always found it super interesting about how time is felt in a more elastic way in classical music than contemporary. Thanks so much for making the vids!

[@eensio]

really wonderful and well-constructed guides. music and its theory unfolds most vividly with your descriptions!

[@jackbeattie3886]

Thank you so much for this incredibly awesome video!

[@keybawd4023]

Fascinating analysis. I shall be far more aware of the polyrhythms in Chopin from now on.

[@stevehinnenkamp5625]

Thank you, Mr. Bruce. You were brilliant in shedding light with your exhaustive knowledge of music from all eras. Admire your use of poetic terms, shimmering, etc., coupled with technical analysis. You are marvelous!

[@NoelVerhoevenGplus]

Stumbled upon polyrythm vids and I get this one! Great explanation plus some humor on top. Thanks.

[@slimyelow]

Fantastic stuff. Thanks !

[@GranieHardkorowe]

Thanks for this one, I love your videos! Keep it up :)

[@pittan86]

Thanks for the knowledge Bruce!

[@idnemgk]

Great! So informative and a hilarious nod/bop at the end, to Adam. This is a great youtube time when a group of you are having this excellent youtube conversation! Thanks to Adam for starting it!

[@JCarlosOrtiz1]

Love it! THANK YOU!

[@samuelbobin8163]

Oh god ! What an amazing and passionating work you did on these polyrhythms technics....!. Thanxxx U so much

[@maxmallett]

Found you through Adam Neely and I’m very glad I did! I always learn something new from your vids.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

Thanks for the video =) Nice addition in the end =D

[@mo0omo]

Amazing research and work

[@russellszabadosaka5-pindin849]

Awesome, I love this video. I never made the connection between polyrhythms and rubato in Chopin’s music the way you explained it. It makes perfect sense. Thanks!

[@gregggaldo9181]

Thank You...another great video....takes me back to my Music School days!!

[@bobblues1158]

Thank you for sharing you insights.

[@woulg]

It's videos like this that have made you my favorite music KZbinr. This is so interesting. I've experimented with polyrhythms a lot in my music but I've always sort of felt like my experiments were half baked. One thing you might be interested in, in electronic music, is the idea of crossfading between different speeds. So for example if you have one rhythm that is at 3/4s speed of another, you can find lots of notes in common and drift your way between the two speeds. Music software is still pretty awkward for doing this but it's do-able. Even something like the polyrhythms you explain in your videos are kind of awkward to work with in most daws, but that's part of what makes it fun. Thanks again for the inspiration!

[@alexandrosgoulas]

Could you link some examples of this crossfading? :)

[@crono303]

I'd also be interested in hearing examples of this!

[@fuzziemusic]

Just ignore the bar lines ; )

[@fuzziemusic]

@@crono303i imagine that crossfade would be like some polyrithmic pitch shift for the tempo ! ? :)

[@woulg]

Tbh I don't know any examples other than in my own music hahah but it's something my producer friends and I have talk about a lot. I've done it in a couple DJ mixes. It feels a lot like changing where the accent lands. Rob Clouth does this really beautifully in sifting through static. Another related and interesting technique is really gradually going from a strong swing groove to a straight rhythm, it gives the feeling of speeding up in a very very smooth way.

[@gyreproject8893]

thank you, very informative and inspiring.... I have studied and performed polyrhythmic compositions of my own but had let go of it for a while. You gave me the desire to et back to work on this

[@stefan1024]

Wow, lot's of new old music to dive into! Thanks a lot David.

[@madbun1312]

you, Sean and Adam keep me sane. thank you thank you thank you.

[@saam6768]

Bless your heart. Can you imagine that I've been trying to teach myself Opus No. 9 without ever thinking about it as a polyrhythm? I just thought of the crazy runs as what I called "dotted quarter note 11-tuples". Facepalm... thanks David Bruce.

[@ivantoroman60]

love these vids please never stop

[@opiusclay]

Great ! Thanks for video 👍

[@felipebiana73]

really greats videos!! thank you!!

[@fikradas]

The Ligetti bottom-up layering approach made me immediately think of King Crimson's music, especially on the Discipline album.

[@spilledcereals2585]

yeah, same! i was thinking of the 7/8 against 13/8 polymeter in frame by frame;

[@RudiSchmitt]

Thanks for the deep insights!

[@ameliasteynberg5841]

There's actually a 4/3 polyrhythm in Moonlight Sonata Mvt 1. The first note in the 4-pulse rhythm is sustained for 3 notes, and the right hand plays the 4 pulse rhthm with the 5th finger, and the 3-pulse arpeggio with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers.

[@makucevich]

Fascinating and useful to me as a composer. The history was a real eye opener. I would be interested in seeing you do a comparison of Ligeti's polyrhythms with Zappa's. Kudos!

[@ChicoChagasmusica]

One of the best video. Thank you

[@jonnyalbino69]

Great video, thanks!

[@box-of-chocolates]

Great video! Question for the performers among you guys: Does anybody else also experience these polyrhythmic lift-off moments as a performer? When practicing Chopin polyrhythms I've often felt the lift-off effect on a very physical level as a sense of sudden freedom or flying over the piano keys. Another note: For a contemporary take on the mensuration canon check out Knut Nystedt's "Immortal Bach".

[@crippled_kiwi]

I only had played the 11:6 and 22:12 polyrhythms in his Nocturne, and only for fun, so no for me, didn't lift off once. Fun though it was

[@alskndlaskndal]

Could you do a video on The Shaggs? I've listened to African polyrhythms, I've listened to Ligeti, but I still can't wrap my head around what those young ladies were doing. It would be one thing if they were just all playing their own tempo, but they sync up at key points in the songs! They hit the cues! How does their music work? Their sense of melody, harmony, and form is also strange and wonderful.

[@farflebfarfle]

Fascinating, and inspiring. I really like the example from Ligeti's Etude 6. I can imagine that repeating four-note cycle working quite nicely as a sequenced synth part.

[@xdeity12]

This was very interesting. A new view and appreciation towards classical music. I’ve never actually liked classical but as a composer. I understand it more. Thank you very much for the insight!

[@stevenpalmieri348]

More like this! Love it.

[@diegosatori5718]

Very nice video, i love the fact that you put the score

[@gurr003]

I have been looking for clear explanation of polyrhythm and its musical use... finally found. Thanks so much.

[@derycktrahair8108]

Thanks for explaining it. In Jazz, Errol Garner was right into it. He could make a simple phrase exciting by engaging our ears in that tension. Dave Brubeck would play in 3/4 (with Joe Morello Drs. laying down a 4/4), and it swings like mad. Thanks again for a great theory lesson. The principles apply to every scene.

[@aswathymohan5423]

Great video. You deserve more views. ❤️

[@PaulFreemanTheTall]

Very enjoyable, particularly as this features two of my favorite composers who I’d never thought were similar, quite brilliant.

[@Mundproductionfunkhaus]

very interesting and very useful, thank you

[@juanpablogonzalez5549]

Great video!!

[@ameliacott2612]

Thank you very much, this video was hugely heplful, greetings from Dominican Republic.

[@nowkentapplegate5315]

Thanks! That was a lot of fun. I now see both composers in an entirely new light.

[@papirringa]

Great video, i'm going to use it for my next seminar

[@composer7325]

Excellent, thank you.

[@virginiaorganbuilder]

Dear Mr. Bruce: I work as a pipe organ builder in Virginia (in the US!), and your channel is one of our most favorite to watch during our lunch break. Thank you for being such a wonderful teacher!

[@feinstruktur]

Great content! Excellent example Chopin vs. Ligeti. I wonder if there are other pairings in that way.

[@HelgeMoulding]

As someone who plays mostly folk and early classical pieces, and is now more often tackling pieces composed much more recently, I found this as potentially insightful. It's given me at least a new window into the music I work with, and that's a Good Thing.

[@WalyB01]

Nice! This is really interesting. Music youtubers make it an awesome place.

[@jeffwatkins352]

Excellent explanation of a complex musical procedure, and lovely to have some focus on Ligeti. I was actually expecting you to cite his Musica ricercata #7, which seems to me one which really embodies that "floating" quality Chopin creates. But then, speaking of Ligeti, he's practically ALL polyrhythms. Anyway, thanks for shining a light on him.

[@ellblaek1032]

7:29 i thought he said "menstruation canon" which sounds like a much more unpleasant thing

[@abraxasstone]

uh oh!

[@maldivirdragonwitch]

Cannon* 😬

[@blacksky492]

4:38 you’ll notice there that the penis there doesn’t stick .

[@slateflash]

The Ligeti #6 is one of my favourite solo piano works ever. The polyrhythms give it a really "cold" feel

[@TheNebulon]

Incredible analysis.

[@mikaelraymond3582]

As all your videos, very interesting. Big thanks.

[@harrisonrichter9414]

Rubinstein recordings of Chopin are my favorite - love the fact that we seem to gravitate to the same ones!

[@danbealecocks4344]

I don't know anything about music theory, and I know very little about classical music, but I learnt a lot from this video and I'm going to find some Chopin and some Josquin des Prez to buy. So I just wanted to say thank you for expanding my mind a little bit.

[@knotty.rancour6187]

Wow, excellent video.

[@DominicAirola]

This is probably my favorite music channel.

[@juusers]

Great video! Makes greater connection with academic music. There is great application called Polygonome, good way to listen into “pure” polyrhythms .

[@kimfrank45]

Thanks. Very interesting.

[@gonzalo_alnso]

love it!!

[@derWeltraumaffe]

A few weeks ago I started creating a little passage in my daw with a 13/8 beat and a 6/8 rhythm part underneath. You get lost between the two patterns and your brain tends to cling on to either one until they come together eventually. Its very confusing but in a good way. My approach for the melodies is to slowly bring them in one by one as repeating "layers", strictly attached to either one or multiple bars of the 13/8 or the 6/8 and I try to make sure they all harmonically work together, creating a canon-like structure. It sounds very different from what I would normally write and I'm very happy how it broke up my writing habits. It's a great inspirational tool to "restrict" yourself with weird rhythms and then see how they evolve and create patterns by themselves you would never have found on your own.

[@zanexiao4488]

At 2:43 that's actually Chopin's Nouvelle Etude No.1 in f minor (one of my favorite Chopin's pieces). Great video!

[@RolandHuettmann]

Great and fascinating video. I am just practicing Chopin Fantaisie Impromptu and Ballade 4 and I had a hard time to be good. The other polyrhythms mentioned in the video seems go above my head...) - but they are very attractive too.

[@Servando6abe]

gracias david

[@dylanstice5980]

Videos like this make me fall in love with youtube all over again

[@ambrosedavis8070]

David, have you considered doing a video about the rhythmic components of afro-cuban music? Its such a rich style in terms of rhythm while remaining an incredibly easy style to listen to, even for someone who knows nothing about music, that it might be worth unpacking. Love the video!

[@donovan665]

Simply Brilliant.

[@waedi73]

Thank you very much for opening the door into this interesting music, formerly known as cat music to me, but after this video it has changed. Great show !

[@maestrorafaelribeiro]

Awesome!

[@leden123]

I love your channel

[@thomashoffman5217]

As someone that likes to improv with polyrhythms, this was amazing.

[@thomashoffman5217]

Youve quantified what I do naturally in my head and make sense of it!

[@AidanMmusic96]

Ligeti's Musica Ricercata no. 7 is also cool for this, as you get some great rhythmic coincidences by how both hands are played!

[@rebeccatripp36]

I like your channel so much. ^_^

[@MrTrumpetalex1848]

"The Bad Plus" made a great version of Ligetis Etude No. 8. The rhythmic intensity of the piece is emphasised greatly in their arrangement, especially by the drumming the amazing Dave King.

[@lucagambirasio]

beatiful and interesting, thanks.

[@StringsOfAndersen]

interesting stuff. well presented