100 year old Polyrhythms Vs. New Polyrhythms

[@milliewx1679]

I was expecting an 1845/1985 polyrhythm.

[@K.D.Meyers]

I'll let you play that..... that's too much for me lol

[@hecksnek6158]

I think at that point, it's basically harmony

[@marktilley7222]

Well that would just be a 369/397.

[@fcandias]

Underrated comment.

[@Gilmaris]

I read the title wrong, so I was expecting 11th century polyrhythm.

[@nevets0910]

Wow! This is Polyrhythm Week for KZbin haha 👌

[@Solomonar23]

This week should go down in history as Polyrhythm Week. :)))

[@akf2000]

Haha what is UP with that

[@riccello]

I think it’s like those times when you learn a new word, suddenly it’s everywhere... our minds only notice things that are important to us at the moment...

[@nanamacapagal8342]

Maybe this month as well? Phodon released polyriddim and everyone's talking about that 7/4 beat and 122.5 bpm but the part that goes back to 4/4 in 140 bpm actually makes a perfect 8:7 polyrhythm when combined with the old meter and thus making the transition several times easier, and the "drunk" part in the middle is actually a bunch of nested tuplets. See Shawn Crowder's video about this, it's really good

[@ShawnCrowder]

Fascinating video! So interesting to get perspective and hear these concepts in a historical context.

[@JoaoCarvalhoGuitar]

Really! Who would think that composers from the renaissance period already tried to experiment with polyrythms. Such things make me think that complex issues like this one aren't that recent in music history...

[@DBruce]

Thanks Shawn. I loved your video too. Hope to see more from you!

[@ifer1280]

How does it feel to be introduced as Adam Neely's bandmate?

[@brynbstn]

Joao Carvalho those aren’t really polyrhythms, to my ear, just an awkward notation

[@artmeatj6620]

I love you Shawn

[@LukeFaulkner]

I always loved that passage in the 4th ballade, but never stopped to rationalise it as 9 against 8. Delighted to have stumbled upon your excellent content!

[@arneperschel]

Same here. I have for a long time semi-consciously held this to be the most beautiful passage in all of Chopin's output. Also because it features the quintessential lush chord that could almost be called Ab9sus4 (I understand the chord, but I don't know its name).

[@mstalcup]

It's brilliant how Chopin has an upward stem in every fourth note of those triplets in the right hand. That's what makes it playable. You just have to play a fairly simple 16th note triplets against 16th notes and simply remember which notes to isolate and bring to the foreground so that the 9 against 8 emerges over the course of the two measures. I love this passage too. Seeing the score demystifies it somewhat and shows a bit of Chopin's genius at work.

[@xenontesla122]

Seems like polyrhythms are the talk of the town right now!

[@WesCoastPiano]

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for with the piano alone he discovered everything." Claude Debussy

[@waynedombrowski7568]

Wow..Claude said that?! That carries a lot of weight in my book.

[@GM-yb5yg]

Some people consider all this contemporary, atonal crap, crap music. If you like beautiful, brilliant music, then chopin is obviously unmatched. If you dont like beautiful solo piano then you won't enjoy chopin.

[@mr.h4267]

What a claude.

[@diabl2master]

@@waynedombrowski7568 I know him as Claudey Baby

[@artysanmobile]

NintendianaJones64 Definitely not overstatement. His contemporaries were simply in awe at his facility on the piano. Liszt also enjoyed near-worship for his technical mastery of the instrument.

[@earfolds]

I had some nine bars, but I eight them.

[@timluyten8660]

That would be a polymeter though ;)

[@IgnatRemizov]

@John Verne No you see, seven needs to eat three squared meals a day

[@BibleStorm]

@@IgnatRemizov John got the answer, you got the equation. What a team!

[@nanayawberko3212]

I imagine some slick rapper being quite pleased with himself after coming up with this

[@saporob]

@@timluyten8660 Did you mean a polyeater?

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

Awesome video! The Ligeti stuff is reminds me of compositions I've heard from India where a rhythmic piece is repeated at multiple time cycles and in many cases those cycles are fractional, so a piece will repeat at 1/3 or 2/3 speed all while the pulse stays steady underneath. Practicing and writing with this sort of thing has left me frustrated with physically notating measured bars of music, but it looks I could learn a lot about making it readable just by studying Ligeti's scores. Thank you!

[@crimsun7186]

These are called tihais and they are usually used to finish pieces.

[@gdvpi]

Signals Music That's your turn now!

[@felixmarques]

One of the most irritating things about notated music (and the constraints of traditional Western composition, which is so notation-based) is that it makes it really hard to quickly compose/read/interpret music that is based on patterns and altered repetition. There's music pieces that can be summed up as a couple melodic phrases and some simple instructions, but notating them is a time-consuming process that results in an ugly visual mess.

[@mstalcup]

@@felixmarques On occasion, I have written pieces in which there is no way I could have gotten the desired result by indicating meter or relative note values in any typical way, yet my instructions were organized and detailed to produce a structured performance and coherent listening experience. I would like to see more composers employing innovative ways to convey their instructions to performers.

[@eyvindjr]

@@felixmarques You obviously never worked with a DAW (digital audio work station). Just make loops at different lengths and you are good to go! For live music, yes it is a lot harder, but it is also not really part of the western musical traditions afaik. Musical notation is also an important strength of western classical music. Other classical music can also be great and complex, but they are more about performance and less about composition, a bit like jazz and folk music.

[@ticfortea]

Next time I'm flying I'll get in on the memes with a 7/47 rhythm performed with airline cutlery.

[@get-the-joke]

Boeing boom tschak.

[@egilsandnes9637]

@@get-the-joke Niiiiiice!

[@JohannesWiberg]

I was planning on doing a 6/66 rhythm on tormented souls in hell but now I'll just look like a copycat.

[@bertiewooster4719]

Perform a 9/11 Rhythm to celebrate what Karlheinz Stockhausen called “the greatest work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos”.

[@xenontesla122]

How far can this go? I really I hope no one tries playing a 9/11 polyrhythm at the World Trade Center memorial. Edit: late to the joke.

[@daviddieffenderfer]

Thank you KZbin for the masterclass in polyrhythms

[@josephalvarez5315]

David Dieffenderfer seriously. 3 fantastic videos from 3 genius perspectives

[@gbmylls8148]

I love that people are talking about polyrhythms and rhythm in general! It helps bring to light that there is more to music than just pitch content. Great video ^_^

[@hadinossanosam4459]

Very interesting! That lift-off effect is clearly present in a lot of the music I listen to (e.g. Scriabin), but I never realized how it is done compositionally... will definitely be using that in my own (attempts at) compositions in future :)

[@keybawd4023]

Fascinating analysis. I shall be far more aware of the polyrhythms in Chopin from now on.

[@idnemgk]

Great! So informative and a hilarious nod/bop at the end, to Adam. This is a great youtube time when a group of you are having this excellent youtube conversation! Thanks to Adam for starting it!

[@box-of-chocolates]

Great video! Question for the performers among you guys: Does anybody else also experience these polyrhythmic lift-off moments as a performer? When practicing Chopin polyrhythms I've often felt the lift-off effect on a very physical level as a sense of sudden freedom or flying over the piano keys. Another note: For a contemporary take on the mensuration canon check out Knut Nystedt's "Immortal Bach".

[@crippled_kiwi]

I only had played the 11:6 and 22:12 polyrhythms in his Nocturne, and only for fun, so no for me, didn't lift off once. Fun though it was

[@woulg]

It's videos like this that have made you my favorite music KZbinr. This is so interesting. I've experimented with polyrhythms a lot in my music but I've always sort of felt like my experiments were half baked. One thing you might be interested in, in electronic music, is the idea of crossfading between different speeds. So for example if you have one rhythm that is at 3/4s speed of another, you can find lots of notes in common and drift your way between the two speeds. Music software is still pretty awkward for doing this but it's do-able. Even something like the polyrhythms you explain in your videos are kind of awkward to work with in most daws, but that's part of what makes it fun. Thanks again for the inspiration!

[@alexandrosgoulas]

Could you link some examples of this crossfading? :)

[@crono303]

I'd also be interested in hearing examples of this!

[@fuzziemusic]

Just ignore the bar lines ; )

[@fuzziemusic]

@@crono303i imagine that crossfade would be like some polyrithmic pitch shift for the tempo ! ? :)

[@woulg]

Tbh I don't know any examples other than in my own music hahah but it's something my producer friends and I have talk about a lot. I've done it in a couple DJ mixes. It feels a lot like changing where the accent lands. Rob Clouth does this really beautifully in sifting through static. Another related and interesting technique is really gradually going from a strong swing groove to a straight rhythm, it gives the feeling of speeding up in a very very smooth way.

[@maxadrums]

Absolutely fantastic video. Thank you so very much for making this one.

[@tacos1337]

David, have you heard the song 'frame by frame' by king crimson? Both guitars play in harmony in 7/16, but then, one of the guitars removes one note from the pattern, thus making it 6/16, while the other one remains in 7/16, which makes for a great effect, you'd probably love it!

[@wojciechdraminski3035]

actually there is one guitar playing in 14/8 and the other one playing in 13/8.

[@tacos1337]

@@wojciechdraminski3035 My bad, cheers for the clarification!

[@starless5668]

"Discipline" from the same album has even more complicated polyrhythms.

[@saam6768]

Bless your heart. Can you imagine that I've been trying to teach myself Opus No. 9 without ever thinking about it as a polyrhythm? I just thought of the crazy runs as what I called "dotted quarter note 11-tuples". Facepalm... thanks David Bruce.

[@makucevich]

Fascinating and useful to me as a composer. The history was a real eye opener. I would be interested in seeing you do a comparison of Ligeti's polyrhythms with Zappa's. Kudos!

[@eensio]

really wonderful and well-constructed guides. music and its theory unfolds most vividly with your descriptions!

[@daviddieffenderfer]

David, this is mindblowing... Thank you.

[@chugrooster2]

Hugely enjoyed this video. I'm going to use some ligeti for drum practice now! I have always found it super interesting about how time is felt in a more elastic way in classical music than contemporary. Thanks so much for making the vids!

[@ameliaisabelc]

Thank you very much, this video was hugely heplful, greetings from Dominican Republic.

[@nowkentapplegate5315]

Thanks! That was a lot of fun. I now see both composers in an entirely new light.

[@gurr003]

I have been looking for clear explanation of polyrhythm and its musical use... finally found. Thanks so much.

[@NoelVerhoevenGplus]

Stumbled upon polyrythm vids and I get this one! Great explanation plus some humor on top. Thanks.

[@amaliameier3569]

Amazing video!! I'm keen on this channel, thanks!

[@serteres32]

Bravissimo! Thank you, David Bruce.

[@scottalbers2518]

This is really an outstanding series. Thanks so much for being so thorough.

[@derycktrahair8108]

Thanks for explaining it. In Jazz, Errol Garner was right into it. He could make a simple phrase exciting by engaging our ears in that tension. Dave Brubeck would play in 3/4 (with Joe Morello Drs. laying down a 4/4), and it swings like mad. Thanks again for a great theory lesson. The principles apply to every scene.

[@stevehinnenkamp5625]

Thank you, Mr. Bruce. You were brilliant in shedding light with your exhaustive knowledge of music from all eras. Admire your use of poetic terms, shimmering, etc., coupled with technical analysis. You are marvelous!

[@alskndlaskndal]

Could you do a video on The Shaggs? I've listened to African polyrhythms, I've listened to Ligeti, but I still can't wrap my head around what those young ladies were doing. It would be one thing if they were just all playing their own tempo, but they sync up at key points in the songs! They hit the cues! How does their music work? Their sense of melody, harmony, and form is also strange and wonderful.

[@ambrosedavis8070]

David, have you considered doing a video about the rhythmic components of afro-cuban music? Its such a rich style in terms of rhythm while remaining an incredibly easy style to listen to, even for someone who knows nothing about music, that it might be worth unpacking. Love the video!

[@russell_szabados]

Awesome, I love this video. I never made the connection between polyrhythms and rubato in Chopin’s music the way you explained it. It makes perfect sense. Thanks!

[@WalyB01]

Nice! This is really interesting. Music youtubers make it an awesome place.

[@HelgeMoulding]

As someone who plays mostly folk and early classical pieces, and is now more often tackling pieces composed much more recently, I found this as potentially insightful. It's given me at least a new window into the music I work with, and that's a Good Thing.

[@musicbymikaelraymond]

As all your videos, very interesting. Big thanks.

[@madbun1312]

you, Sean and Adam keep me sane. thank you thank you thank you.

[@PaulFreemanTheTall]

Very enjoyable, particularly as this features two of my favorite composers who I’d never thought were similar, quite brilliant.

[@xdeity12]

This was very interesting. A new view and appreciation towards classical music. I’ve never actually liked classical but as a composer. I understand it more. Thank you very much for the insight!

[@fikradas]

The Ligetti bottom-up layering approach made me immediately think of King Crimson's music, especially on the Discipline album.

[@spilledcereals2585]

yeah, same! i was thinking of the 7/8 against 13/8 polymeter in frame by frame;

[@gyreproject8893]

thank you, very informative and inspiring.... I have studied and performed polyrhythmic compositions of my own but had let go of it for a while. You gave me the desire to et back to work on this

[@jeffwatkins352]

Excellent explanation of a complex musical procedure, and lovely to have some focus on Ligeti. I was actually expecting you to cite his Musica ricercata #7, which seems to me one which really embodies that "floating" quality Chopin creates. But then, speaking of Ligeti, he's practically ALL polyrhythms. Anyway, thanks for shining a light on him.

[@zanexiao4488]

At 2:43 that's actually Chopin's Nouvelle Etude No.1 in f minor (one of my favorite Chopin's pieces). Great video!

[@slateflash]

The Ligeti #6 is one of my favourite solo piano works ever. The polyrhythms give it a really "cold" feel

[@maxmallett]

Found you through Adam Neely and I’m very glad I did! I always learn something new from your vids.

[@stefan1024]

Wow, lot's of new old music to dive into! Thanks a lot David.

[@gregggaldo9181]

Thank You...another great video....takes me back to my Music School days!!

[@5StringTheory]

Awesome video! Truly inspiring. Thanks!

[@harrisonrichter9414]

Rubinstein recordings of Chopin are my favorite - love the fact that we seem to gravitate to the same ones!

[@samuelbobin8163]

Oh god ! What an amazing and passionating work you did on these polyrhythms technics....!. Thanxxx U so much

[@jackbeattie3886]

Thank you so much for this incredibly awesome video!

[@diegosatori5718]

Very nice video, i love the fact that you put the score

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

Thanks for the video =) Nice addition in the end =D

[@ml-ei3nz]

Thank you for this Episode. As a Drummer and Pole i am twice happy you bring the topic polyrhythms and polish national treasure together. Its fun to see one topic almost simultaneously from your perspective, and the other KZbinrs like A.Neely or his Drummer Shawn. I had to laugh a lot about your meme. We europeans are excluded from Adam Neelys 7/11 challenge.

[@virginiaorganbuilder]

Dear Mr. Bruce: I work as a pipe organ builder in Virginia (in the US!), and your channel is one of our most favorite to watch during our lunch break. Thank you for being such a wonderful teacher!

[@papirringa]

Great video, i'm going to use it for my next seminar

[@farflebfarfle]

Fascinating, and inspiring. I really like the example from Ligeti's Etude 6. I can imagine that repeating four-note cycle working quite nicely as a sequenced synth part.

[@ellblaek1032]

7:29 i thought he said "menstruation canon" which sounds like a much more unpleasant thing

[@abraxasstone]

uh oh!

[@maldivirdragonwitch]

Cannon* 😬

[@blacksky492]

4:38 you’ll notice there that the penis there doesn’t stick .

[@RolandHuettmann]

Great and fascinating video. I am just practicing Chopin Fantaisie Impromptu and Ballade 4 and I had a hard time to be good. The other polyrhythms mentioned in the video seems go above my head...) - but they are very attractive too.

[@dylanstice5980]

Videos like this make me fall in love with youtube all over again

[@juusers]

Great video! Makes greater connection with academic music. There is great application called Polygonome, good way to listen into “pure” polyrhythms .

[@pittan86]

Thanks for the knowledge Bruce!

[@PabloGambaccini]

The text on top of the mensuration canon makes me think it was a compositional way of expresing the divine trinity 3 in 1. It is actually a very precise metaphore.

[@DBruce]

could well be I agree

[@BRNRDNCK]

In my opinion, the two measures from Chopin’s ballade you analyzed constitute the greatest five seconds of music ever written. By itself, that phrase is incredibly beautiful, and in the context of the whole piece, they are transcendent. I don’t even know what other moment of music would compete with that.

[@mikakoskinen3362]

Just love polyrythmics. Great video, but need to comment one off topic. The pop group pic in beginning of this video is actually a finnish pop group Bogart co. from 80's

[@thomashoffman5217]

As someone that likes to improv with polyrhythms, this was amazing.

[@thomashoffman5217]

Youve quantified what I do naturally in my head and make sense of it!

[@mo0omo]

Amazing research and work

[@feinstruktur]

Great content! Excellent example Chopin vs. Ligeti. I wonder if there are other pairings in that way.

[@MattMusicianX]

Love it, David Bruce!!!!! So many different ways to do polyrhythms! There's so much value to get from this video. ...way better than me saying , "strike every 11th note of 7lets in 11/4 ... every 11th note of 7lets in 11/4 ... just do it already 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄" for most of the video. Hahaha. (Though honestly I did love Adam's funky composition)

[@slimyelow]

Fantastic stuff. Thanks !

[@waedi73]

Thank you very much for opening the door into this interesting music, formerly known as cat music to me, but after this video it has changed. Great show !

[@RudiSchmitt]

Thanks for the deep insights!

[@DominicAirola]

This is probably my favorite music channel.

[@ScottGlasgowMusic]

Do a video on isorhythms. Ligeti is my favorite. I met him in my 20s in Los Angeles. We discussed Antheil

[@Robert_Babicz]

thank you, very interesting

[@derWeltraumaffe]

A few weeks ago I started creating a little passage in my daw with a 13/8 beat and a 6/8 rhythm part underneath. You get lost between the two patterns and your brain tends to cling on to either one until they come together eventually. Its very confusing but in a good way. My approach for the melodies is to slowly bring them in one by one as repeating "layers", strictly attached to either one or multiple bars of the 13/8 or the 6/8 and I try to make sure they all harmonically work together, creating a canon-like structure. It sounds very different from what I would normally write and I'm very happy how it broke up my writing habits. It's a great inspirational tool to "restrict" yourself with weird rhythms and then see how they evolve and create patterns by themselves you would never have found on your own.

[@bobblues1158]

Thank you for sharing you insights.

[@opiusclay]

Great ! Thanks for video 👍

[@dansheppard2965]

For simple polyrhythms, such as 2:3 and 3:4, there seems to be a genuine "vertical" interplay between the lines, creating time-entities with and without onsets at different points. I may just have tin ears but for me when the ratios become stranger the verticality starts to be lost and instead you have kind of emergent, low speed horizontal effects where some slow, periodic coincidence creates a distinctive not or phrase (and the listener can focus on different parts of that longer periodicity at different times).

[@Mundproductionfunkhaus]

very interesting and very useful, thank you

[@JCarlosOrtiz1]

Love it! THANK YOU!

[@stevenpalmieri348]

More like this! Love it.

[@ivantoroman60]

love these vids please never stop

[@jonnyalbino69]

Great video, thanks!

[@crimsun7186]

You're getting dangerously close to Conlon Nancarrow to not mention him...

[@DeathBringer769]

I love that guy. One of the craziest player piano composers of all time :D

[@PennyDreadful1]

Ligeti would have mentioned him.

[@felipebiana73]

really greats videos!! thank you!!

[@Gumpa2]

Cool Video! I've found, when back in the day, I learned the fantasie impromptu, it didn't even feel "akward" to play that 3:4 Polyrithm, because it matched kindoff the handposition aand the fingers. You know like "Ok left hand, you may start with the right one, but you'll be going different paths, but be sure, you'll meet again", and it somehow makes it feel quite enjoyable to play polyrithms on piano. In comparison It feels way less natural on for example the guitar, since you cannot simply say: "Left hand, this is what you do, and this is what you do right hand". Its that both hands do need to think simultanously about those two measurments. Very interesting topic!

[@AidanMmusic96]

Ligeti's Musica Ricercata no. 7 is also cool for this, as you get some great rhythmic coincidences by how both hands are played!

[@ChicoChagasmusica]

One of the best video. Thank you

[@ameliasteynberg5841]

There's actually a 4/3 polyrhythm in Moonlight Sonata Mvt 1. The first note in the 4-pulse rhythm is sustained for 3 notes, and the right hand plays the 4 pulse rhthm with the 5th finger, and the 3-pulse arpeggio with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers.

[@LisztyLiszt]

The more you study Chopin, the more you realise it's not just pretty harmonic progressions and dazzling piano effects. You begin to see the underlying genius. I suggest reading the analysis of his E minor prelude by Carl Schachter. This prelude is often associated with the elegy, but Schachter unearths a skillfully crafted work hidden behind its expression. (Note: In the second half of Schachter's analysis he drifts into the dubious world of Schenkarianism). Thanks for talking about Chopin. He's in my top 4 with Bach, Beethoven and Scott Joplin.

[@aswathymohan5423]

Great video. You deserve more views. ❤️

[@TheNebulon]

Incredible analysis.

[@AEFic]

Great video. I'm sure you're a fan of King Crimson's Discipline? Frame by Frame features a very similar concept to Ligeti's Etude No. 8... the two guitar parts being off by one eighth note.

[@Murrlin27]

From one of the younger youtubers' videos (Neely, etc.), I like the idea of polyrhythms being ultra slow intervals, and intervals being super sped-up polyrhythms.

[@sebastianzaczek]

Are complex Polyrhythms becoming some Kind of meme-like trend now? Adam Neely did a Video on 7 against 11, Shawn Crowder did one about Polyrhythms like 22:21 and 99:100, and now you? 😃😂

[@ErebosGR]

Adam has conditioned me to expect air horns every time I hear the word "polyrhythm".

[@PianoScoreVids]

The cycle idea from ligeti was pretty cool!

[@lucagambirasio]

beatiful and interesting, thanks.