12,000-Year-Old Stalactites in the Ruins of Tiwanaku, Bolivia?? | Ancient Architects Investigates

[@AncientArchitects]

Thank you for watching and for being here! If you want to support the channel, you can become a KZbin Member at kzbin.info/door/scI4NOggNSN-Si5QgErNCwjoin or I’m on Patreon at www.patreon.com/ancientarchitects

[@SmokeyTreats]

Thanks much for all you do! Would love you to do a vid on the 4 part Earth view vid of ruins of old earth Sylvie posted by Gary Schoenung on her Newearth channel. Many thousands of ancient rock circles in Africa & many have a circular & or a rectangle pool looking area next to them. Some ancient unknown civilization? Aliens? Who knows. Lots of them have paths leading to them. Baffling stuff! Here's a link to one of them: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaXPl6mBaJx_kNU

[@minifalda6611]

Rainfall must effect the growth rate. Phenomenally.

[@MillHizzo]

The Oera Linda manuscript says that Poseidon's brother who was named Inca, left with his fleet and never returned, after the second described giant cataclysm in the manuscript.

[@ottawadigs]

There is an ancient canal system on the Tiwanaku plateau that nobody ever discusses. Graham Hancock mentioned it in one of his books

[@AlbertoMontesSoto]

if it's in spanish I could translate for you

[@kelleylaughlin392]

There are stalactites that are 5 to 6 cm long in an old limestone quarry in northern Illinois. The quarry was open from the 1930s to the 1950s. As a geologist, I know there are so many variables involved in the formation of these structures that I find it hard to believe that anyone can accurately date them.

[@omegatired]

Totally off the video topic, but thank you for this comment. I'd been trying to figure out how long it would take to encase something in stone in a cavern with dripping stalactites. This gives me a better idea of how to do what I need to happen. Thank you.

[@nobody687]

Wouldn't the type of rock have a effect. That and it on a high desert plain

[@robertwilliams450]

There's a concrete culvert not far from my parents house where an abandoned railroad once ran. It too has those growing from it. So yes it makes one wonder.

[@Optimusprimerib36]

Ask Jimmy Hoffa. I’m guessing it takes a pre dug hole, a concrete truck and about five minutes…

[@iamanastronaut8561]

Brien Forster is a true hack. He uses these sensationalized claims to help promote his tour business. He isn't a professional.....just a glorified tour guide.

[@jdholbrook33]

Stalactites need water to form. I was under the impression that the rainfall in that area is very low and with an elevation of 12,000ft plus, I don't imagine too many aquifers are running near those tunnels. That could skew the data wildly, especially comparing it to a pub cellar in the UK where it rains almost every other day. Don't forget they have dated many human living spaces here in the US back to 23 - 25,000 years old.

[@Radioactive_Slime]

First thing I thought too. It’s not like these stalactites are in a damp cave. I’ve always understood this area to be quite dry. Plus, at the altitude they are situated, their formation could be even more unusual. It definitely needs to be studied more. Great, though provoking video.

[@CatastrophicNewEngland]

@@Radioactive_Slime Though a dry tunnel could form them quicker, due to faster evaporation and no dripping. Lack of stalagmites would indicate fast evaporation & or very slow seepage.

[@danhnguyen-fn9eb]

Today there is little rainfall. What about 500 yrs ago? 1000 yrs? As we can see for ourselves weather patterns change. Still doesn't mean that humans built this site 12,000 yrs ago. You are probably correct about the lack of aquifers. Even though it doesn't rain much or often, it still does occasionally. The water could soak in and collect in small pools on top of all of that bedrock in the area and then get channeled to wherever the fissures in the rock leads it. Some of the tunnels show earthquake damage so some of those fissures could lead there. None of what I just wrote is positive proof But it is a possibility. As far as the Pre-Clovis dating sites there are only a handful with a couple of fingers left over. Now, do I think there was a couple of continent wide ancient super culture here? No absolutely not!!! But do I think that there have been times in the last 25,000 yrs some intrepid individuals or small groups took advantage of the ebbs and flows of the Ice sheets to make it to the lower 48 and Central and South America. And it was those folks that left a footprint here and some human feces there and a fire pit further south. Yes, North America was covered in deep ice. But the ice was not static. During the Ice age there were warming trends that would change to colder trends then rinse and repeat. As far as the people that did make it here during that timeframe I don't think that they made it here in large enough numbers to have survived for very long or leave a lasting impression.

[@lordtudraska1796]

I believe Tiwanaku had a really cool foundation design for storing water

[@daveadam435]

I worked in coal mines for 15 years & can say I've seen Stalactites form in a matter of mouths !!!

[@CatastrophicNewEngland]

There is a stone arch railroad bridge near me, made of tight fitting granite blocks with small seams of mortar. There are long & thick flowstone like stalactites & stalagmites on/under the steep sections near the abutments, (wrist wide-ish) that all grew since it was built in 1899. It depends on the soluble content of the stone/mortar, the acidity of the water, the rate of seepage, & the humidity/drying capacity of the air.

[@noelrossbridge2514]

OUTSTANDING!! You wouldn't have a degree in geology by any chance, would you? Mr geopolymer (Matt) claims to hold a masters. I certainly don't, yet, in less than 30 minutes I discovered than some concrete bridges can grow stalactites as fast as 25mm in 8 days. Mr geopolymer seems to think that the growth rate in caves are estimates and not extrapolated by measurement and time. I found limestone cave stalactites between 25 - 100mm per 1000 years. Tiwanaku is not limestone (calcium carbonate) it's andesite (apatite, garbet, ilmenite, biotite, magnetite, zircon) so it would appear we are missing CALCIUM CARBONATE, which is what they're made of. If you want to know I call him Mr geopolymer, check this out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXzVnYWVebqLqrs

[@andy2069]

Quit ruining the fun of gullible people grasping for interest... I'm joking, I think tiahuanaco is amazing and mysterious, but I also think basically all this ancient lost civilization stuff with Hancock and everything is usually just wild ignorance at play that clouds the morsels of true mystery.

[@periscopetraveller7786]

Hi, I am an Italian follower and I was very pleased and surprised to see the video in my language, too bad that in those days the video quality was not optimal.

[@oldfighterfighter1024]

If you find a 20th century Coca-Cola bottle cap by a medieval castle, will you date the castle to the 20th century on its basis ???

[@celsus7979]

Imagine jumping to the conclusion that they picked up a piece of pottery from the ground and dated the site on that.

[@takster050974]

Love your channel. And great to listen to. Thanks for all the untold stories.

[@rickgrear8270]

Thanks!

[@billharm6006]

As I understand stalactite growth, the rate is dependent upon water ingression. High moisture levels will lead to rapid growth. The pub in England is probably an example of generous moisture availability leading to long "soda straws." Tiwanaku is not exactly noted for abundant water (thus, the "pub" example is something of a stretch as a point of comparison for this story). Therefore, slow growth must be expected. Also, the components that make the stalactite must be leeched from the soil (and rocks) as the water passes through (and over). The reservoir of minerals available in the soil along the water's route must be considered. Factors such as concentration, solubility, pH, etc. will also affect stalactite formation rate. Perhaps other research into the moisture history of the region (both meteorology and hydrology) could be joined with knowledge of the site's soil composition (soil chemistry) to form a more precise understanding of the actual formation periods. All that said, the 12,000 BC number seems to be significantly over-stated.

[@AncientArchitects]

The example is really just to show “length” cannot be a good indication of age. The Tiwanaku examples to prove a 12,000 date are random and arbitrary. Bolivia has a dry and wet season, rainfall can be torrential in the wet but what I was trying to indicate by showing the England example is that it’s not a straight forward science by measuring them. As I say in the video, the person quoting them as evidence for a 12,000 year old date has no data. There are no papers on the stalactites, nobody has analysed the pH, the palaeoclimate data, the water table, the affects from earthquakes and human conflict, the natural land geography and geology… it was just an arbitrary association. I showed the England examples just to show - look, you can’t just measure them and say how old something is.

[@AncientArchitects]

And I do say in the video at the end - it’s all just a bit random and right now, without a thorough analysis or published work by a specialist scientist, they shouldn’t be used to date Tiwanaku

[@tristambre632]

These studies on stalactites are interresting, it seems to be a decent way to scientifically date the site, it just need some more time and data. You're doing a amazing job of reporting the news as always, thanks Matt !

[@noelrossbridge2514]

Do your own research! Matt is not a good source. The pub cellar, limestone and concrete. Tiwanaku, andosite. Just look up what they're all made of and then ask yourself, where did the calcium carbonate come from, because stalactites are made of......

[@d.m.collins1501]

@@noelrossbridge2514 we all know that stalactites are alien technology. They're made from stalacticium, cyber-mined from robot sinuses in a stalactsy far, far away...

[@noelrossbridge2514]

@@d.m.collins1501 Ohhhhh, I've heard their planet is flat. I suppose you can confirm this? Unless you have something constructive to say, F off.

[@lordtudraska1796]

Very cool... I have a book I'm writing that involves Tiwanaku, and I really needed a cave.

[@danielhunter7693]

Quality analysis. Great work.

[@thecryptonaut5329]

great content as always :D

[@AncientArchitects]

Thank you

[@mtnvalley9298]

C'mon folks! Give the man a thumbs up already; it's a simple price for admission!!

[@sarahdawn7075]

Can they even date stalagtites? There are so many variables that can change over time. Did Tiajuanacu have a much wetter climate at some point? When did that climate begin and when did it change and was it a gradual or sudden change?

[@NullStaticVoid]

I've seen stalactites form in NYC subways just over winter. These would be 3-4cm at most. They grow quickly because the materials the ceiling is made out of are water soluble. The ruin in Tiwanaku probably sees a lot less precipitation than a NYC subway. New York has at least one massive snowstorm every year that results in huge floods of slushy molten snow the next couple of days. Most winters they get several. Also, are the ruins limestone? Or possibly a limestone based mortar is used? With more acidic rain in the 20th and 21st century, these could be less than 100 years old.

[@barnstormandy]

when was the lake lapping at the steps long enough to erode them smooth like that ?

[@krakendragonslayer1909]

I was using the same astronomical methods as Artur Poznański and I discovered that between 6200BC and 2100BC there was organized civilization based on some astronomy-based religion centred in nowadays st. George Church in Bucharesti wich local centres in: - Przemyśl, Poland (chapel in the castle) - Kraków, Poland (altar of st. Mary's church) - Giżycko, Poland (chapel in the castle) - Krakovec, Czechia - Riazań, Russia (tower guarding bridge to the cathedral) - Arkona, Rugen island (altar of the sanctuary) - Vilnius, Lithuania (big white tower) - Krov, Germany (cathedral) - Rival, Estonia (royal palace's treshold) - Soumussalmi, Finland (northernmost outpost, not centre) And that there was some other culture coexisting with main centres in (1) Torino, Italy and in Xi'An China. (2) Sigiriya, Śri Lanka and Giza, Egypt (3) Tiwanaku, Bolivia and Ollyantantambo, Peru (4) Teotichuacan in Mexico and (a) Hanoi in Vietnam (the museum build in place of old palace), (b) Bali's Island main temple. (5) Petra, Jordan and Jerusalem, Palestine

[@seankrake4776]

Can you explain in layman’s terms what you mean and how you got there? I’m not trying to argue with you, I’d just like to understand what you are claiming

[@krakendragonslayer1909]

@@seankrake4776 First I started with analyzing churchs' layout and every other ancient site layout in the biggest pre-christian cultural centre in Central Europe, Kraków. OFC. assuming they used astronomy to place it I needed *TURN OFF* Google Earth's 3d terrain relief. The most important are: - all the places with churches and chapels older than 1250AD, - all churches named after lady (st. Mary, st. Claire, st. Rose) - all cementeries older than 1970 including burial mounds - those with "white" in name like Białystok, Bielefeld, Bielsko, Biały Kościół, Białowieża since white walls in ancient times were sign of centre of power and red walls were using for casual buildings, Then when I learned in what eras which dimentions were they using for geodesy I could start enlenghting those lines beyond the area. In some eras they were using walls of church, in some eras they were using diagonals of the main hall, in some eras they were using treshold placing. When I was drawing the geodetic lines the confirmations I recieved were findings of always the oldest house in every village or of very old palaces always placed carefully along those lines with less than 0,5m precision. Also all the stadiums and airports placed when there was still place are placed geodetically towards the local palace or cathedral. The eras are: - before 2100BC - before 1200BC - before 630AD - before 1250AD - before 1650AD - I expect next change of religion and of placing after 2150AD

[@krakendragonslayer1909]

@@seankrake4776 Then when I learned what rules are, I applied them to non-European sites and discovered they are the same there.

[@krakendragonslayer1909]

@@seankrake4776 the work took years including many consultarions with geodesy and archeology top professors (masons) and also with abbots of old monasteries (catholics).

[@seankrake4776]

@@krakendragonslayer1909 what exactly do you mean by lines? And how did you determine the directions of these lines?

[@johnlandis6430]

I agree it is more likely the stalactites have been removed over time then simply allowed to keep growing. As far a growth rates, going to be very hard to come up with the range of growth for a 100 years.

[@howiegruwitz3173]

According to some of you nuts, my crusty shower head is 10000 years old. Junk science.

[@MissWoofieWoo]

That's all very well, but did you see the ORBS in the photos!?! Amazing. :-) Thanks Matt for wornderful work again. Love your channel.

[@clairpahlavi1585]

Formation rate depends on numerous factors, like rainfall. It's the highest driest desert in the world. And yet the site is covered in 30 ft of died mud.

[@megret1808]

It strictly a subjective observation from personal inspection but there is something similar looking about the construction techniques at Tiwanaku, the Valley Temple at Giza and the Osireion

[@JMM33RanMA]

Once again, Matt subscribes to scientific analysis rather than to fantasist dreams. Yes it would be nice if our dreamworld were true, but truth is more important and durable than make-believe. Thanks, Matt, for dispelling the fog of myth with the light of reason.

[@noelrossbridge2514]

Really? Ahhhhh, stalactites are calcium carbonate, where's the calcium carbonate coming from? The andosite? Andosite contains no calcium carbonate. If you've been to Tiwanaku you might notice the ground, because I did, it's very compact and hydrophobic (I wet and washed the stone and the water didn't absorb into the ground very well). Matt is an idiot.

[@garbleduser]

I wonder if we could see transitions in their growth and mineral composition stemming from atmospheric changes due to industrialization.

[@dat2ra]

Yes, radiometric argon.

[@garbleduser]

@@dat2ra Thank you! That is the information I was searching for!

[@mrliberty8468]

those little soda straws are not that old I have seen bigger ones on old house pipes..it depends on how much minerals are in the water and the rate of flow..

[@EstebanArias_]

Amazing video as allways!!

[@AncientArchitects]

Thank you!

[@auyemra1331]

since youve posted this vid, 2 people have joined the Akakor YT channel. ps very cool job

[@skattyopt]

Noooiiice can't wait to hear this.

[@AncientArchitects]

Enjoy

[@skattyopt]

@@AncientArchitects I shall thanks dude

[@kirkhunter146]

The event that toppled the structures and swamped the area with mud burying everything is the key to deciphering how old it is. I'm not sure that the site has given up all it's secrets as much may lay below what is now ground level. This site really needs ground penetrating radar to see what is really there.

[@armandobardo6861]

hi, can you make a video about the new discoveries in the Great Pyramid made with the muon scanner ??

[@machtschnell7452]

Do you not have to allow for altitude and average rainfall to estimate stalagtite age?

[@brianparks3417]

You are compairing two climates with two entirely diffiernt buildings. Don't forget the building material used in Britain used a lot of lime plaster, ie availably lime. Rain fall and amount of available lime would speed up the drip and the rate of growth.

[@axax7668]

As always very informative.

[@AncientArchitects]

Thank you

[@thenadonation2664]

The rate of growth depends on how much water and the saturation of mineral content. stalactites all grow at different rates highly dependent of the environment.

[@claudermiller]

There's an old estate in Cincinnati built around 1890 that used to have caves down by a lake behind the house which the owner had built for his children to play in. There were stalagtites in it measuring several inches. That was in the 70s when it was about 80 years old.

[@CorryDMG]

I've seen similar stalactites in 30-40 year old concrete buildings.

[@gregorybowe9383]

In a desert?

[@aquila4228]

One of the only channels that consider alternative possibilities to formal historiography and analyze the proposed theory with rigor. It’s so hard to find trustable information about alternative historical research

[@skattyopt]

Yes that's true 👍 it really makes a difference when you look at things objectively and logically. Have an open mind but not so open it's full of s##t.

[@AncientArchitects]

I don’t really care how my own little investigation turns out. And also if I make mistakes, because I am doing it honestly and without prejudice :)

[@sooner5484]

Thank you. I agree that the age of these structures is very hard to fathom and we must not jump to conclusions. Cheers

[@Alarix246]

Matthew, if there is such a term as a couch explorer, you must be the best one of them! Incredible what's possible to research without being actually on site. My question: aren't the stalactites possible to use as an aid in dating by scraping some organic matter underneath them and date that material? That should give us the age of that material before the stalactites started forming. It could be some kind of fungus, lichen or similar organic matter.

[@MrTryAnotherOne]

Did they say 50 or fifteen? It's easy to misunderstand. Btw, the tunnels look excellently crafted. Everything is quite straight, smooth and perpendicular.

[@catman8965]

I could really see the growth rates with very even from year to year. Perhaps there's another way to date this flag tights. I AGREE!!! GREAT VIDEO MATT! Keep the science coming. 😁

[@theautoman22]

They need to see if there any thorium in those stalactites, if so uranium-thorium dating would give a really accurate date.

[@whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Speleothems should have isotopes that can be cross referenced with lacustrine sediments of a known date.

[@ro0140]

Agree with your assessment according to the information at hand. One thing I might like to add, is that if people where crawling through those narrow tunnel or tunnels they would probably broke some of those possible longer stalactites especially when you want to go further into the tunnel and they are partially blocking your way.. They probably didn't really see the possible importance of those stalactites or might considering them unreliable for dating. We probably need more reliable data on exactly what kind of stalactites they are and we need more photo's maybe even a stalactites specialist having a good look inside the tunnel.

[@penneyburgess5431]

The stalactites growth would be determined by the sentiment, the type of rock, the amount of known average rainfall seepage. As the tunnels were used for I am guessing water, they must have been leak proof. You’re right, we have no idea when the seal was broken and when to set the date. I don’t think it proves or disproves anything. Thank you Matthew.

[@dougalexander7204]

Let’s see, the Neolithic period saw the beginning of farming and at the end, the Bronze Age. And somewhere in the middle there was a cataclysmic impact in North America. This wiped out the Clovis culture and many mammals such as the Woolly Mammoth. Great times for building such an amazing megalithic site. Man is tough, tough as a honey badger.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

What impact wiping out what culture? You do understand the Folsom and Clovis culture overlaps in North America and the Folsom culture continues on after right? Think you have been watching a lite too.much Randall Carlson.

[@seankrake4776]

I always love seeing science in these videos. I get so frustrated with channels that just state hypotheses and say this picture looks kinda strange therefore 10,000 years old. We may not always get the answers we want, but it is nice seeing science explain history in a way that is reasonable

[@AncientArchitects]

Too often someone says something, someone repeats it and then everyone says it. Like people saying “Gobekli Tepe was purposefully buried” - it wasn’t according to the experts.

[@peasinourthyme5722]

@@AncientArchitects I did´t know that...been seeing to much alternative and to little mainstream coveragew of that sitre obviously...

[@drewberchtolzthofen886]

Thank you! And what about the polygonal masonry and megaliths of Kronstadt, near St Petersburg? It's pre powertools granite masonry, and some of the stones have those knobs, and place in general looks damn similar to what we see in Peru. Please check it out some day soon.

[@mikelentz833]

Another objective and entertaining video. Well done!

[@Oldsmobile69]

I've been to bunkers built in the 19th century with stalagtites that long.

[@christianbuczko1481]

You get bigger in mines of that age.

[@mybackhurts7020]

But how much moisture

[@mmowins1140]

Matt, well done. Thank you for demonstrating how to use facts, research and opinion in an appropriate and dignified way. (Yes, I wish everyone could follow your lead, we would stay a better community for it).

[@commonsense-og1gz]

factors that would also need to be taken into consideration is whether the tunnels were sealed, changes in weather, was the location under water in the past...etc. as a side note, i don't think absence of pottery, or presence of pottery, can be used to judge overall date of the site, since sites can have various culture changes over hundreds, or thousands of years. people 1,000 years from now will likely think the same, as they will find things from this era, and believe that London spawn out of thin air in the 20th century.

[@Nerdvanna98]

I love how you always entertain wild claims while grounding it in facts and data but your videos typically tend to bum me out by the end when you usually disprove the wild claims that's I want to believe so badly! Nevertheless, I appreciate you achieving a nice balance of open mindedness and reality, keep up the good work!

[@MrJonsonville5]

You should want to know the truth no matter what it is, not go in looking for evidence your wild speculation was actually right all along. Stalactites vary in how long it takes for them to form depending on a number of variables. And now I'll stop talking because I just reached the part of the video where he explains all this : ) PS, I agree with your commentary though 👍🏼

[@MrJonsonville5]

@@Eidolon1andOnly so true. I respect him for recognizing that he was mostly relying on speculation instead of peer reviewed scientific research, admiting it to the channel, and instantly this became one of my favorite Archeological/History Channel. My favorite by far is Stefan Milo, with David Miano of World of Antiquity coming in at a close second. Then would probably come this channel, unless there's something I'm forgetting. And he still is open minded when it comes to speculation and wild claims, he entertains them, compares them to the current scientific consensus (which is always changing), and throws in his own research and ideas in a search for the truth, no matter what it is and where it leads. I'd say that's the definition of open mindedness, and this could actually be considered one independent researcher peer reviewing someone who writes books full of unsupported speculation, and has to remain consistent with his speculative stuff to keep people paying him for tours and books. Brien Forrester is a hack. I like his imagination, and I like his videos where he takes trips to sites I want to see, but he is more of a Fiction writer than anything else, because he doesn't have a degree in anything related to archeology or history. Randall Carlson, now that's a real researcher that works so hard to prove (and I think he has amassed a ton of evidence) his hypothesis about North American glacial flooding caused by one or more comet/meteor strike roughly 13,000 years ago. It may even explain why the Natives on the American continents didn't build the massive empires until thousands of years after Europe, Asia, and the Middle East did. But as for a worldwide advanced civilization being wiped out by this event, there's no evidence to back it up. People probably were more advanced than we previously thought, as dates for agriculture and a move away from the old nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle in certain areas of the near east keep getting pushed further and further back. Any event like the one that ended the ice age, followed by the younger drias would obviously disrupt the old way of life, requiring adaptation to a new one. But if there were whole advanced civilizations wiped out back then...where are all their artifacts? We have found skeletons of hominids that are millions of years old, but the only archeological sites we've found come from the time between the end of the ice age and the younger drias (I'm talking about Gobekli Tepe and the other Anatolian sites). We have 20,000 year old artifacts, but they're flint tools, arrowheads, and the earliest signs of attempts to domesticate wild wheat. I highly suggest you check out Stefan Milo's channel if you haven't already. His videos aren't just educational, they're also funny. And he does sometimes speculate about the lives of certain burials that have been uncovered, but he makes it clear that he's telling a story. And the production quality of his videos keep getting better and better.

[@sasquatch1554]

He's not arrogant about it like so many debunkers are. That's what I like about his videos.

[@Nerdvanna98]

@@MrJonsonville5 I agree that's never how you should pursue truth but I can't help but get giddy at the idea of civilization being 12,000+ years old every time we see new evidence that may hint at such a thing. It's like with aliens, I want them to be real and for there to be complex civilizations deep in space but if there was ever a way we could definitively prove they didn't exist then I would accept that as fact.

[@MrJonsonville5]

@@Nerdvanna98 I feel you, and I see what you're saying now. I think I misread your first comment. We're on the same page : )

[@badguy1481]

Good analytical research. There MUST be a way to accurately date this site!

[@nancyM1313]

⚱hey MS! Love the B/W photos.

[@ivokolarik8290]

Great video

[@user-mp3eq6ir5b]

These Stalactite Grow Rates are like Star Trek trying to travel from one Galaxy to another with the Time Span of the Show. Perhaps if Warp Speed was a Logarithmic Funcrion, it would only take a Few Years per Episode.

[@jimmyzbike]

Are they still growing? Or has the water table changed and they aren’t growing anymore? More study needed

[@peasinourthyme5722]

Good one! I truly appreciate that you fact-check the evidence of alternative claims. Alternative research is important, but it must be held back and not get caught in wishful thinking. That job you have taken on and you´re good at it! Tahnks :)

[@sparkynm156]

So the Stalactites all get broken every year ? So the tunnels should be packed with Stalactite debris no matter how old.. yet looks like it's cleaned regularly... ?

[@bob_._.]

What I can't figure out though is why would 200 years worth of pub owners just let the damn things take over a perfectly good storeroom like that?

[@bruceames9224]

Wouldn’t it depend on rainfall and ground water?

[@clearlightentertainment9775]

YES! Rate of rainfall in that area would drastically change the rate of growth of the stalactites , BUT... don't forget the amount of rainfall that would cause waters to reach the depths of the tunnels themselves. Which sections of the tunnels were being measured? How much calcium/lime minerals are in the soil for the water to carry to the tunnels? So many variables....

[@davidtruman4590]

I certainly agree with you that the 12,000 year old dating by means of stalactites is highly questionable, but that is no more than I'd expect given the dubious sources of this hypothesis. As far as the astronomical dating of the Kalasasaya Temple is concerned, yes Posnansky did overestimate it, but not by such a great extent. Between 1927 and 1930 a team of German astronomers took sightings at the Temple to check Posnansky;s date and concluded that its alignments corresponded to a dating of c. 9,300 BCE. This dating broadly concurred with the research undertaken jointly in the 1990s by the US archaeologist Neil Steede and Oswaldo Rivera, who was then the Head of the Bolivian National Institute of Archaeology (INAR). At least two of the cornerstones of the Kalasasaya, which were used to determine these astronomical dates, show signs of acute weathering, which is consistent with an early date for the erection of these stones. I also think there is very a real difference between the Tiwanaku site itself and the Tiwanaku Culture as it is described in Bolivian consensus archaeology, which fails to communicate the distinction to the public. The site was actually used by a much earlier culture, involving a deity called Yaya Mama. At Tiwanaku, the Decapitated Stela and the sandstone stela in the Semi-subterranean Temple, thought to be of Wiracocha (aka Viracocha) are clearly in this style. The latter Temple was almost certainly originally constructed for the purposes of Yaya Mama rites, since these were invariably held in sunken temples, at the centre of which was a monolith. Consensus archaeology associates this practice with a culture called Qaluyo, which dates back to 3,500 BP, but which I contend is probably older. Finally, the Argentinian archaeologist Dick Ibarra Grasso found no fewer than five distinct strata containing masonry buried in the alluvial mud beneath the surface of Tiwanaku, extending to a depth of 21 metres. The currently excavated archaeological site is thought to be about just over 1% of the ancient metropolis, which aerial surveys have estimated covered around six hundred hectares. The present day archaeological site is a selective construction in accordance with a particular ideology, which was initiated by Carlos Ponce Sangines. It does not mean that it is accurate.

[@AncientArchitects]

Have you got a source for the Ibarra Grasso work? I'd love to read the primary account for sure.

[@davidtruman4590]

The sources I have for this are in Spanish. My secondary source is a book called 'Tiahuanaco' by Simone Waisbard, which refers to Ibarra Grasso However, there's also an interview with Oswaldo Rivera in 'En Busca de la Edad de Oro' by Javier Sierra, where Rivera also states he had found 5 different archaeological strata beneath Tiwanaku. There is much about Andean archaeology that is disingenuous, whether academic, or 'alternative'. What happened to Oswaldo Rivera is a case in point. You'll get an idea of this if you look him up in 'Heaven's Mirror', but there's more to tell about this story, as I aim to do in my own book.. You can only really read Ibarra Grasso's work in libraries etc in South America and it's all in Spanish. @@AncientArchitects

[@whisthpo]

Again, Excellent joining the dots/Detective work Matt !

[@robertevans8126]

You should talk about the Fresh Water Sea Horses, that are also there.

[@adventureseekersparadise]

Stalactites that size can grow in a few decades. I remember a bridge in Providence by the state house that had such stalactites from dripping water fed by a spring heavy in limestone.

[@nigelpalmer9248]

Ye but Tiwanaku is a desert, right?

[@gregorybowe9383]

In a desert?

[@adventureseekersparadise]

@@gregorybowe9383 They don't form from air there is usually a a spring from a limestone aquifer involved with their formation.

[@jwhitestone]

Thanks for being you! You're one of the few voices I trust on the internet. Even if you turn out to be wrong you give me the feeling you are coming to an honest conclusion given the evidence you have and I enjoy your style and journey towards the truth. Stay awesome

[@keithfitzpatrick4139]

Good video. Seems like you did your research, looked at it objectively, And made a reasonable conclusion. I like it

[@keithfitzpatrick4139]

Love the pub reference.

[@frankrodriguez9697]

Worked on a house in Birmingham Alabama, built in the 30s . It was down wind of steel mills. The front porch had 8 " straws.

[@stonehartfloydfan]

First question is what is the rainfall and ground water penetration of the structure, personally I would agree with the 100 to 300 or so BCE date for the site mainly due to the lack of other early material and if we are at this stage relying on stalactite for a date is grasping at straws sorry.. One of the reasons I left this end of academic work and specialised in engineering is the mountain of evidence that humanity is much older than main stream would have you think, however where this site is concerned I agree it is not much older than 2000 years.

[@ScrillaTMU]

Keep researching the ancient Americas Ancient Architects. You will find some very interesting things, I promise. I could give you some historical books to read if you want.

[@bombsquad2231]

One day you'll have 1 million subscribers!

[@AncientArchitects]

When I’m old and grey 👀

[@Tuezday1388]

You spelled suscribble weird….. but yes! This channel is pretty great.

[@docjackal8511]

@@Tuezday1388 What?

[@outcastoffoolgara]

Surely there was some form of microscopic analysis of stalactite formation thickness. I imagine stalactite formation is based on water transport/limestone solubility factors. It ain't rocket science so where is the Italian publication and any affiliate papers?

[@baarni]

Brilliant episode as usual..... Rational thought over bias any day....

[@mariolongtin8271]

Unfortunately Brien Forster isn't a good source of information, he never proves anything. He just points at things and goes "look".

[@base99498]

Perhaps Gobekli tepe provided for Derinkuyu ? In a sense both were hidden which distinguishes anatolians as those who covered their tracks well…

[@ollyjackson8733]

ah mate second I saw a video of yours with 12,000 years in the title I'm on it like a mouse on cheese great to have a grounded opinion share about potential timeliness conundrums. Please can you look into the lemminkainen hoard!!!

[@farmonious420]

Great vid. I think the stalactites could have been broken off by the people moving through the tunnels. I don't see any on the floor, but they are pretty fragile, and I would bet they would be crushed by the same people moving through the tunnels. It still doesn't verify the age, but would definitely throw off the size of them. Stay Happy and Helthy. Keep the great content coming.

[@Morpholaf]

Looks like the english pub cellar is much older than we thought =)

[@raymondbrolly18499]

Thanks again Matt. As always top quality. Personally I think it is unscientific to date this site until the whole site is excavated. I know this could take a while but that’s science.

[@gregsmith1719]

Matthew! -- You didn't say analyzing about analyzing the stalactites themselves, only their length! They have growth rings just as trees do! You have to analyze them under a microscope! -- Let's find out!

[@michaelfritts6249]

If you cut down trees that soak up water above a limestone deposit with a cave located underneath and that allows more water to penetrate the ground, increasing the amount of water that carries limestone into the cave.. does that increase the age of the cave or the rate of growth of the stalactites? Or If you create a "cave".. or tunnel in an location with limestone present, and water with high mineral content now "drips" due to the newly opened space.. does that increase the age of the tunnel? Just curious.. I'm not a geologist or archeologist. Be Well!! 😃

[@che71che]

Wouldn't it depend on many climate factors as you've mentioned, average rainfall & air humidity, I should imagine that being so high up on a mountain in a dry and arid region of the world would make these stalactites incredibly slow growing, with all the dater of the climate and humidity averages coupled with the mineral content contained within these stone it must be easily datable once the information has been worked out by an experienced geologist?

[@christianbuczko1481]

You can find bigger stalagmites and stalagtites in mines only 150 years old. Theres dozens of mine exploration vids showing them on youtube, id recommend checking the exploring abandoned mines channel.

[@mybackhurts7020]

Yeah but how much water is there

[@jonathankrautter9321]

I wonder if making a ratio of the annual rainfall against the length of the stalactite would give a better approximation considering the rainfall and humidity between locations is so varied?

[@mattking993]

Excellent video. Truly enjoyed how you looked at all the evidence. I have been missing hearing about some of your hypotheses on some of these ancient sites. You've done so many fact based videos lately, maybe it is time to stretch your imagination muscles a bit and have some fun :)

[@markbarber7839]

Thanks for the video. Mario Buildrep's channel has some fascinating videos showing his orientation dating theory. His method and data is very though provoking. I'd like to know your thoughts on this please?

[@lawneymalbrough4309]

A stalagtite will grow according to certain factors. 1 the amount of water trickling through the rocks. 2 that amount of minerals dissolved in the rock and the amount of time that the water is present. None of these factors are constant. They vary from day to day week to week month to and year to year. The researcher does not have these numbers from which to make a calculation. There's no way he could actually calculate the age by the size of the stelagmite. He does not have 12'00 years of data from which to draw a conclusion. I call that junk science at best. Fraud at worse

[@AncientArchitects]

As I say it’s the video, it’s a bit of a random way to date a structure as we don’t know any of the variables. It’s blinding people with science to fit a narrative. We don’t know the conditions, when they started growing, rate of growth, if and when they stopped growing, water table changes, climate and rainfall data and so on. There is no paper released on them so it’s all a bit pointless. They could form in 5 years or 2000 years or more. Take your pick!

[@talljohn5350]

Perhaps we could come up with a minimum age based on this. What is the most concentrated the minerals that made these could’ve been in the water. What is the highest constant flow rate that could have happened. This could at least give us an approximate date that the structure couldn’t have been made after.

[@coreck2]

Its just not very good but approximations are ok

[@joearchuleta7538]

@@AncientArchitects Then why even make this video?

[@HappyPursuits]

To my untrained eye the rectangular and boxed-in style of the site gives me the impression of being an “outpost”.

[@edgarsnake2857]

So, Brien F. was off by 10,000 years. I'm shocked.

[@DaDa-kf4vp]

Great video. I would lean towards the 800-2000 year time period simply because we do not see evidence of growth/breakage/regrowth. It would seem that these are the first and only stalagtite growths in these tunnels. *unless the team cleaned out the floor of all debris before taking these pictures.

[@tauras3108]

It would depend on when the leaking started as the construction looks very precise .

[@MAGIKMARTIAN9526]

IVE SEEN EARLY PHOTOS OF THIS and was really shocked to see most of whats standing today wasnt standing when they found it , so the site has been rebuilt and is out of context, you notice that gate was almost buried when they found it

[@JulioReibel]

Great vid. It is an extremely important site in the history of South America due to the seemingly advanced pre-Columbian civilisation that occupied this region, some 4,000 metres above sea level in the centre of the Andean Plateau. Some say the Tiwanaku Culture began around 1,600 BC, some say later, at 200 to 300 BC but Arthur Posnansky, who lived between 1873 and 1946 argued that Tiwanaku was constructed much earlier, around 15,000 BC, and was the origin point for many civilisations of the Americas, including the Inca and Maya and so on.

[@Degenevesting]

As a geologist, this is somewhat misleading. Stalactites can form at varying rates, due to the speed water can percolate through the ground depending on rock type. He would have to prove the water speed, and average water volume passing through per year. Highly unlikely these are 12,000 years old.

[@DoctorMangler]

I worked in the DIA tunnels (Denver International Airport) in the early to mid 90's. In two years since the placement of the tunnels, there was time for 6" and up to 8" soda straws to grow through the tunnel joints.

[@eldraque4556]

nice, well done

[@paul6925]

I’ve seen stalactites that long in Ukrainian urban exploration videos in their underground metro