12 Days of Celtic Myth II - Day 4 Gwyn ap Nudd

[@KrisHughes]

The 12 Days of Celtic Mythology, Season 2, Day 1 PLAYLIST for the series: kzbin.info/aero/PLvCdDm0wPhA3ZPWFBswdctH6sNCrGTuqC You can read an annotated translation of the original Welsh text at www.culhwch.info or listen to an excellent storyteller telling the whole thing here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXLOmo2hqbGsgM0 If you’d like to join the live online discussions, you need to become a patron (mininimum cost $2 per month. Cancel any time). www.patreon.com/KrisHughes Information about all my classes is available at: tinyurl.com/GDclasses Mhara Starling Nwyfre: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epuzY6poZpVjppYsi=RvX32ZxAtXYBnYa9 Gwyn ap Nudd: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qanMhIZonNVmeK8si=GnHWXs0ylOgt_ruH Gwyn ap Nudd - Lorna Smithers www.dunbrython.org/gwyn-ap-nudd.html Idris Foster. Gwynn ap Nudd. In Duanaire Finn Part III (1953) pp198-204 archive.org/details/duanairefinnbook03murpuoft/duanairefinnbook03murpuoft/page/198/mode/2up?view=theater Dialogue with Gwyddno Garanhir awenydd.cymru/2015/02/08/gwyn-ap-nudd-and-gwyddno-garanhir/ Dafydd ap Gwilym a selection of poems (1993) p 84, 98-99, 156, 161, 201 archive.org/details/dafyddapgwilymse0000dafy/page/n5/mode/2up First Branch of the Mabinogi (opens with the bit about Arawn) www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm

[@Davlavi]

Loving the series thanks.

[@KrisHughes]

Are you watching these is reverse order??

[@Davlavi]

@@KrisHughes Yes been going through videos play list.

[@Jennifer-sv4xl]

just discovered your channel and want to say that im very excited to participate in future events like these! good work and thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[@kellebandea]

I first came across Gwyn in a kids book, as a sort of dark faery king associated with the Wild Hunt and Glastonbury. The poem makes him quite a sympathetic character, carrying the weight of witnessing all these wars and being immortal, he reminds me a bit of Armand in the Interview with a Vampire film! Then in Culhwch and Olwen, he is pretty much an evil sadist - the father's heart thing gave me shivers. But for me there is a cohesion there - he strikes me as a personification of the violence in the human heart; the never ending cycle of war, the sudden brutality that can drive men mad, and the exhilaration of the chase of the hunt. What's interesting is the way Arthur is portrayed - he seems an entirely human king yet he has the power to order Gwyn around as some kind of arbiter of justice.

[@christineogrodowski4871]

Reconciling Gwyn into a cohesive whole has been quite a challenging question to me, after taking his stories into account I’m resolved to say that he is a king in Annwfn, a keeper of souls in Annwfn, a psychopomp. However, this raised another question to me as to how Arthur would have agency over a king of Annwfn to force him into the cosmic battle with Gwythwr.

[@fierceperedur]

Those savage Brythons! Always cutting out each others hearts. Thats why I stay away from the family gatherings. At least I have you guys to be with in spirit. Loving the stories. I have read them a few times but thats not enough I must begin again with a new copy of the Mabinogi. Merry Christmas!

[@annitelford8437]

Fascinating question, my thoughts are fairly muddled but for what they’re worth here they are. I struggle to reconcile Gwynn into a coherent picture when I approach it from a modern perspective. Perhaps the most appealing is to see him as an embodiment of the radiant masculine godhead? He is fierce, proud, leads the hunt and the host. Forcing his foe to eat his father’s heart is perhaps reminiscent of the annual death of the old king at the hands of the new? The annual battle to win fair maiden the struggle between summer and winter? There are so many layers to the question, and nothing I’ve come across even begins to give Gwynn coherence.

[@PaulinePitchford-xd8to]

From the materials discussed here to me it seems that Gwyn ap Nudd is first and foremost a powerful warrior. Like many warriors of the times this was written in he is also a hunter, from the mention in the tales a very good hunter. He's also clearly a leader of armies and a ruler. From the mention of him forcing a man to eat his own father's heart he is capable of cruelty and has a strong temper but that's not that unusual for the times the tales are set in. Arthur's judgement on him over the situation with Creidyladd means he will fight an individual battle each year until judgement day. It's unclear as to whether this means he is already fully immortal or the judgement confers a form of immortality. It also implies the annual battles will never result in the permanent death of either party. So a warrior and a hunter, a warrior that will continue to personally battle each year as well as one that will witness many battles. Fierce, sometimes cruel, powerful and immortal either by origin or from the curse of Arthur's judgement.

[@ArchLingAdvNolan]

Gwyn ap Nudd may be a dark archetype(filled with the fury of demons)which one requires to hunt and slay the mighty boar. He is the winter to the summer of Gweddno.

[@Greenfrog777]

I can't say much about court lists in the Welsh tradition, but in the Greek tradition, audience was important. When the Iliad was recited, it was to a court of aristocrats. So, every time a warrior is named, some aristocrat in the audience gets to say "that was my ancestor! He was there!". The long lists of names are kind of boring to us, but to them, it's what made them a part of the story

[@mariane3146]

Great video!! awesome narration and a very nice pick in terms of story! I’m delighted to learn more about celtic myth

[@KrisHughes]

Thank you!

[@jenniferreid-k1p]

I first encounte the name gwyn Ap nudd in a fantansy book I read as a child - when he was leader of the Wild Hunt. I found it ironic that this seems to be the primary role he is given in popular culture - but my best internet searches could not find out why he was assigned this role -except "traditional"! So out of curiosity I saw what AI would make of him -the answer "Gwyn ap Nudd is a figure from Welsh mythology and folklore. In Welsh tradition, he is often associated with the Otherworld, a mystical realm beyond our own. Gwyn is considered the ruler of Annwn, the Welsh Otherworld, and is often depicted as a king or lord of the fairies. In some tales, Gwyn is linked to the Wild Hunt, a spectral and supernatural hunt that is often seen as an omen of death. He is sometimes portrayed as a guardian of the underworld or as a psychopomp, guiding the souls of the deceased to the afterlife. The name "Gwyn ap Nudd" can be translated as "White, son of Mist" or "White son of Nudd." The significance of the name and its association with the otherworldly aspects of Welsh mythology contribute to the mysterious and mystical nature of Gwyn ap Nudd in Welsh folklore." I suppose it could have been a lot worse! Anyway I must stop getting diverted. I found the The Conversation between Gwyn ap Nudd and Gwyddno Garanhir the most useful piece in considering him. I found it interesting that he almost corrects Gwyddno - from slow to anger to strong in anger -which would fit with the person who forced son to eat fathers heart, it may take a lot to rile him up -but when he is angry beware. He is the "invincible lord" -upgrading himself from just leader of many - estblishing himself as the important one -almost in contrast to Arthur where it is Arthur and his knights - the difference between Gwyn singling himself out as individual , against the mass communal court list in Culwch and Olwen struck me as striking. It is cleaar the Gwyn is immortal - but I did wonder if this was not the immortal just because you are immortal, but the man who becomes immortal, in ths case because of Arthurs judgement against him, forcing him to fight to judegment day. So he appears to me as someone who started off as a a mortal warrior, doing the things that the warriors did in those days - brutally killing enemies, hunting when not in battle, carrying off the fairest woman they can find. He then carried off the wrong woman and was cursed to an eternal ife of fighting, crossing over from the mortal realm to Annwyn where he becomes one of te rulers there (I do not see him and Arawn as the same). The discussion with Gwyddno gives me the impression of the reluctant warrior -he may once of revelled in it, but now the fact he went from battle to battle was a chore, a compulsion not a joy (in contrast to most descriptions of The Morrigan I have read) One thing that I couldn't see was the role he is often given as a seasonal god, the Mayday fight being symbolic of winter versus summer. I see the May day fight as being more closly related to the belief that May Day is one of the two Welsh spirit days, when the Otherworld is closer to the mortal, and the Mayday fght strikes me more as showing the limnial state, when crosing between the realms is easier, and when mortal warriers could move across into the out of time world of the Annwn. If anyone knows the earlies reference to Gwyn as leader of the wild hunt I would be very interested as I simply couldn't find one to say if the story was modern, collected as a story by the c19 folklorists, or older. Anyway -time for me to stopp waffling and climb out of this rabbit hole!

[@neilianrobertharvey7168]

Gwyn the king of hospitality helps his kinsfolk amidst the tyranny that may surround them. In short, he's a good guy our gwyn.

[@mossymosaic]

Someone else mentioned that deity appears to people as they can conceive and as they need, and I imagine that "heroic" or "mythic" type figures are the same in most cases. Each person writing the story, and even bards probably did their fair share of minor self insertion through painting certain characters certain ways. There's also the matter of what the cultures at the time wanted from his character, much like Arthur changing throughout retellings. He just feels all over the place and even after doing some outside reading I don't feel more secure in my understanding. I suppose I like him best as a psycho-pomp though because I personally like that archetype.

[@professorvector9535]

I think it is possible that Annwfn is not ruled over by a single king, but instead it was divided into several smaller kingdoms (maybe even vassal kingdoms), like medieval Wales. I think the conflict between Arawn and Hafgan from the First Branch might support the many-kingdoms view of Annwfn, assuming Arawn and Hafgan were rival kings in Annwfn. Gwyn could be yet another king in Annwfn. I'm also not convinced that Gwyn and Arawn are the same individuals; the hunting connection is interesting, but I get the sense that hunting was probably a popular sport among medieval lords, in both this world and the Otherworld, and not "owned" by one particular character. On the point of Gwyn becoming immortal as a result of Arthur's declaration that he fights every May Day with Gwythyr, is it possible that it was because Gwyn was already immortal, as a result of being from Annwfn, that Arthur was able to make such a declaration?

[@edwardlecore141]

I am writing a series of novels that continue the Mabinogi and have come to the part where the main characters travel to Annwfn, so I am now forced to create a coherent narrative for it. One solution is the idea that Arawn, by getting Pwyll to overthrow his rival, upset the natural balance of the Otherworld and ours, and Gwynn and his rival had to be conscripted to replace them, to restore the natural order, (Before all of Celtic Britain is overthrown) Gwynn would have been chosen as he was more blood thirsty when a mortal knight, and able to bare the burden better than the gentle Arawn. This seems to cover all the details from every source I am aware of, but I will continue to search. I also include the idea that the version of Gwynn's story involving Arthur is a corruption of the original elemental or primordial events. This may or may not be academic sound but it allows for story potential, which for me is more important.

[@patriciawilson648]

My generic answer would be that gods are what they want to be, not what we want them to be. So many aspects attributed to one god amplifies the god’s importance but may not clarify who they are for us. Does that make sense?

[@Evan-dwi]

Gwyn ap Nudd has always felt like a mishmash of a character to me. He appears to vary from a highly respected figure to overtly satirized. I'd need to do a lot more study before I feel I could make any kind of assertions about his nature.

[@ArchLingAdvNolan]

Esni is Old Irish, it has two other forms. It means "we are".

[@seanmcshee2599]

I have difficulty understanding the gods as coherent characters. In some ways, their hovering over one or more contradictions feels like what makes them gods - they live balancing between wildly different presentations.