Why You're Wrong About Music Theory

[@12tone]

Try CuriosityStream free and get Nebula included: www.curiositystream.com/12tone and use promo code "12tone" Some additional thoughts/corrections: 1) Sorry if the title's too aggressive. It's KZbin, gotta get those clicks. 2) When I say music theory doesn't predict, I mean that on a macro scale. On a micro scale, it can definitely lead you to conclusions you wouldn't have come up with otherwise, but my point is that the musical vocabulary that informs those conclusions is pre-learned. Like, for example, one of my favorite discoveries I've made is that the bVma7(sus4) chord resolves well to I, which I found by thinking about tritone substitutions and then tested out and it worked, but that's not a new model, it's just the logical result of an old one. If I wasn't already familiar with the trope of tritones resolving, not only would the logic not have made sense, the progression wouldn't have sounded good either. 3) I really need to make a video about the idea that technical skill is the basis for musical quality, don't I? 4) Teach the Humanities.

[@photonicpizza1466]

The last point is the only one I disagree with. While music theory is very different from physics, biology, what have you, that doesn't mean it isn't a science. The unbounded, fuzzy, everchanging nature of music applies very similarly to language, and I think it's pretty easy to agree with the assertion that linguistics is a science. Music theory may not be a natural science, but it is a social science, the descriptive nature of it is enough to qualify it as such in my mind.

[@Hilde_mann]

@@photonicpizza1466 In Germany, things are much easier, as we have the word "Wissenschaft" (literally: knowledge-ship) which describes both sciences (Naturwissenschaften) and humanities (Geisteswissenschaften). So while one is more empiric and the other more hermeneutic, both are equally valid even in their naming.

[@Fabelaz]

You know, I do think that science can be used effectively to understand ourselves. Like social science and medicine, for example. Either your perception of science is wrong, or you didn't quite put the last part right. The hammer-nail part is just... not accurate, alright? And while I do like humanities, and I haven't read the comments you did, I don't think the reason so many people are wrong is in how prevalent physics is currently. The way testing works, where there is only one definitive answer? yes - that's, basically, not how real world works, but it has nothing to do with physics, which is as uncertain as everything else, aside from anything that we can calculate. So my take: education moving towards tests to evaluate how students are doing is what might be the cause for people seeing some things, which do not have a definitive solution, as a puzzle. Gladly, in higher education (at least in my country), that's not how student performance is rated.

[@AmandaKaymusic]

3) Yes please.

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

Nicely done! I was just thinking of Adam Neely's video on Sweet Home Alabama and then I checked your channel and here is this. The song that made me think of it is " Here Today Gone Tomorrow" it's a very simple progression, D-F#m;D-F#m;D-F#m-E;D-E-F#m-E are the main motifs. It starts on a D, ends on a D, and everyone says it's in D, but I just don't hear it that way. To my ear, it's in F#. If you play it through but end on F# instead of D it sounds MUCH more resolved for some reason. Even ending it on an E sounds more resolved, actually, it's one of the most disquieting endings you could imagine. I'm guessing this is due to the vocal melody but I'm not sure.

[@AdamNeely]

absolutely love this!

[@booradley32]

You and Davie504 need to have a bass-off

[@luigivercotti6410]

Satisfied your bass needs?

[@jasonremy1627]

Is that because he also came to the same conclusion as you did about "Sweet Home Alabama"?

[@educostanzo]

The guy who taught me that music theory is "descriptive" and not "prescriptive".

[@briankeegan8089]

@@educostanzo This isn't just an advance in understanding, it's transformative: a paradigm shift, so to speak.

[@michaelwinegarden5443]

Love how you drew a a viking helmet for "misconception".

[@ezra6094]

:o

[@anhthiensaigon]

because in the reality viking helmets never had horns, right?

[@michaelwinegarden5443]

@@anhthiensaigon indeed. it's holywood to blame (mostly) for this misconception

[@emunilsson1559]

mostly it's 1800's swedish historians and poets to blame because they needed a new source of pride after losing the provinces composing of finland after it getting taken by russia. Hollywood just rode the wave

[@davidmcglinnen2647]

I see the helmet alluding to the 'horns of the dilemma' he's about to rip the bandage from

[@DavidBennettPiano]

Brilliant arguments for something that annoys me on a daily basis! You’ve given me lots of ammo to reply to my less-friendly commenters! Thank you

[@Fantumh]

"When we don't teach the humanities, we build a society incapable of understanding itself." The greatest defense for the value of humanities ever, succinctly stated in one sentence. Followed by, "And I think we're seeing the consequences of that play out in the real world."

[@lucys5752]

(I was totally just looking in the comments to see if other ppl kinda had the Oh Shit moment I did when I heard that sentence)

[@mxecho]

At my school they converted an entire wing of industrial art and metal shop into a pottery and painting wing. 2 wings for arts; music and typical mediums. No autobody no metalshop and lathes no welders... engineering is an art that plays by different rules, science discovers those rules. BOMB MAKING IS AN ART DAMMIT!

[@tonygohagan2766]

i call BS

[@elbschwartz]

@@mxecho There are reasons for that development that have nothing to do with "overvaluing" the humanities. Ironically, understanding that development is exactly what the humanities are trying to teach.

[@asciisynth]

Definitely. And this is also indirectly why student loans were suggested by politicians and were supported by most of the public. We have been encouraged to see education in terms of benefit to the individual by learning a 'useful' skill, as in 'a skill that makes money'. Which is why it's a lot harder for a student from a poorer background to decide to study humanities. If fewer people study the humanities, we will have a society without a collective long term memory that can't apply the lessons of the past, to the future.

[@nedredhead474]

Dear 12 tone, I'm not going to pretend as if I've been here since day 1, but I started learning guitar about a year ago with no previous music theory knowledge whatsoever. About a month ago, after having gained an interest in music (largely due to your breakdowns on Pink Floyd songs) I finally started taking proper guitar lessons and I'm entering the world of music theory. I'm a long ways away from being "good" but all in all I wanted to say thanks, for interesting me on something that I used to see as boring and/or useless.

[@wojciechdraminski3035]

Damn congratulations man!!!

[@briankeegan8089]

Good for you, amigo. One thing this points out is the inherent value of learning by having some freedom to follow where our mind goes. When we do this, we can skip stuff when we're not ready for (or open to) it. And then we may find ourselves coming back to it when it helps answer the questions _we want_ answered then. When the learning path becomes our own chosen journey, that's, well, transformative. Also.let me echo the thanks to 12-tone. I've gotten SO much from his approach, which is by turns insightful or affirmative. The affirmation can be so key, when someone far knowledgeable puts a voice to in intuition we're starting to form, but doubt. The understanding that music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive is a huge advance.

[@nedredhead474]

@@wojciechdraminski3035 thanks man!

[@nedredhead474]

@@briankeegan8089 before I used to see the guitar as just a bunch of strings and frets, but recently I'm starting to kind of visualize (if that makes sense) notes and how it would transfer to, say, the piano or other instruments. But what you're saying is absolutely right, I don't feel as lost just going by KZbin tutorials and I'm really appreciating how much great music and artists there are. (Sorry for any mistakes, I'm not good at English)

[@e.redtears7646]

That's great, plus music theory can get really fun and helpful when you apply it ti your own instrument and it really gives you keys to understand in depth musical concepts.

[@actualizedanimal]

One of my major pet peeves is when people disparage music theory by acting like it's just a set of rules that restricts the creativity of musicians. To me, it's the exact opposite- learning music theory really opens up all kinds of possibilities for creating cool sounds that you might not otherwise think of. I think people have a tendency to think of music theory as some kind of high-minded thing for academics, but really, anyone can learn the fundamentals of music theory and broaden their horizons.

[@a52productions]

Unfortunately, a lot of the time, that's exactly how it's taught, particularly in early classes. The standard curriculum focuses so much on archaic, limiting, and arbitrary rules, rather than anything that would realistically help a modern student actually make or understand modern music.

[@verysuperdave]

Exactly! If theory restricts you, you don’t really understand theory.

[@burnerdgaf5222]

Violet N. the only way I can see music being broken down "scientifically" is the mixing and mastering/engineering side. Even then it could be argued otherwise, overall id leave it in the creative field and ignore pretentious academics

[@XanderKarr]

As a dance music producer and DJ, I hear this all the time and it really annoys me. I spent five years as a professional jazz musician before switching over and my new peers wonder why I can make so many different genres without sacrificing quality. I tell them it’s because I don’t just binge watch KZbin videos on a single genre and learn it that way like most producers who are musically illiterate, but rather I’ve spent years understanding the theory behind music and can easily analyze a couple songs before knowing how to make something similar

[@EpicStuffMan1000]

@@XanderKarr people wonder about how multi instrumentalists can pick up different instruments so quick, but if you understand chords and scales any instrument is the same (all you have to get going is the technique to apply the ideas). same with different genres, it's so simple yet people can't wrap their heads around it because it's not taught properly

[@ThaliaEverheart]

I see music theory as the grammar of the language that is music it's like the general rules to follow but the rules are constantly being broken changed and expanded as we use it differently to explain different feelings

[@conormurphy4328]

But then you get stupid things like LoL and sowwy

[@barmacidic2257]

Conor Murphy people say the same things about some genres of music being bad, their point still stands.

[@WillayG]

You beat me to this comment.

[@brosilio]

except that when you break the rules of language grammar, you're objectively wrong. (that's not a diss)

[@ThaliaEverheart]

@@brosilio language is constantly evolving and changing. language is the art of communication and there is no real right way to communicate there are only rules to help as guidelines to make communicating easier

[@homomorphic]

Perfectly summed up in the comment "it can't tell you what's good , it can only tell you what's happening". Only my judgement of what's good counts 😂

[@5BBassist4Christ]

I would actually say, "it can only tell you what works." Why does this piece make us feel the way it does? Why do powerchords make us feel powerful? Why does dissonance make us feel uneasy? Why does this chord resolve to that? Why does the sound of this instrument make us feel this way?

[@Giganfan2k1]

"It can't tell you what is good" I heard John Cage's "In the Name Of the Holocaust" [B] in my head. I jokingly say Orchestra, moreover my conductor my taste is music. XD

[@thediminished98]

@@5BBassist4Christ imagine you are in math class. The teacher call you to the blackboard/whiteboard ---> the teacher asks you to solve a few calculus problems 2/1, 3/2, 4/3, 5/4, 6/5, 5/3, 8/5, 9/8, 9/5, 15/8, and 16/15. You get a grade for this. You really want a good grade. Does it get increasingly more difficult? Does each of these calculations give you more of a headache? Because this is what your brain does when you listen to music, or when you look at someone's face.

[@ecashman]

Music theory is to music like like grammar is to languages. Sure, it's great to have a framework through which to view a language's structure in order to convey meaning in the most proper way, but don't let grammar distract you from the real meaning being conveyed and the way it is being conveyed, the language. Similarly, grammar shifts and changes overtime, so don't ever get stuck in the mindset that, "there is only one way to do grammar (or music theory)."

[@andreasvandieaarde]

I disagree. A LOT of musicians never even learn about western music theory, and yet be very successful and revered as great musicians. Extending your analogy, it would be like Stephen King never learning about English grammar and yet he writes The Shining, IT, Misery, and Gerald's Game to great acclaim. I think what's more important than attributing theory so much into how you view or make music is *what sounds instinctively good.* It's all subjective, and that's awesome. I don't think language is actually a good comparison to music. I used to think so, so I understand why you would.

[@SealedKiller]

@@andreasvandieaarde The original comment points out that music theory (the grammar) shouldn't distract you from the actual meaning being conveyed, meaning that you don't need theory to make something good...

[@BinglesP]

I needed this channel so badly. For context: I'm a beginner composer that only uses GarageBand and doesn't really know any instruments. If I remix, I do it by ear most of the time since I can't really translate sheet music to the MIDI display very well. I also have a hard time picking instruments to use, and coming up with original melodies that don't sound like a song I've already heard before while still sounding good. Most channels about music don't really give any sort of enjoyment outside learning to me, but this one fits well with the rest unlike them. I can understand it, and it gives me more motivation to just go with whatever I think sounds good without following strict rules. Thank you, 12tone.

[@RafaelSolaPACalsaverini]

As a someone with a phd in physics, let me say this: TEACH THE HUMANITIES.

[@Giganfan2k1]

Most physicists I know play an instrument. The most popular being Einstein playing the violin. Having a creative outlet is almost necessary when you are working so cerebrally.

[@m104skate4]

@@Giganfan2k1 Bongo man Feynman!

[@nikibronson133]

Yes. People want things to be like physics with hard rules but its just not. Not humanities

[@nikibronson133]

@@Giganfan2k1 Well i think thats because music is a fundamental part of being human. Not that music makes you smarter or aids on sciences. They are equally important

[@Cloyd1]

Oh yeah? Then explain quantum gravity. :p

[@natsune09]

Reminds me of when I was in Highschool and I took a couple of music theory classes. One of the people was in your typical garage band and wanted to make better music and took the class. One day, near the end of the year, he asked, "What in this class should I be using to make better music?" The teacher replied, "All of it ... or none of it. This is "Music Theory" and not "Music Law." It is just some tools you can use about how music works." That was a great answer. There was one jerk who was in the school band, and just had no idea why I was taking music theory even though I didn't play an instrument. "I find it interesting," was not acceptable to him. He just couldn't let it go, for freaking years. The point of both of those stories is this. It is "theory", and that word is defined as "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained." Use the tools you need, or don't. If you build a table, do you use every tool in your garage? No. Can a table be only made by a professional carpenter? No. There is no rigid "law" like physics. So, there is no one definitive way to do something.

[@Fabelaz]

"I find it interesting" is the reason why science exists, so screw the simple minded when you can gaze at the stars with wonder.

[@natsune09]

@@Fabelaz Damn right. Not as poetic as your words, but does the job.

[@natsune09]

@Angel of Death You think people would want to share something they love. But it's like when some unknown band becomes famous and the fans of when they were unknown feel angry when "posers", or any other bad term, are listening to something they loved.

[@lwilton]

@@natsune09 A huge quantity of humanity likes to hide and sequester anything they love, lest it be stolen from them. Unfortunately many of those people are parents that love their children.

[@natsune09]

@@lwilton so true

[@klanggemaldemusic8723]

As I am studying music theory myself, I feel obligated to join in, if I may. Whenever people ask me why I study music theory, why I am interested in it, I basically answer because I love and want to understand music. That's basically it. With music theory we strive to find words, language to talk about music itself. In piano technique I can say how I want to play the piece, in music history I can look at what are the contexts of the music in it's time, in music theory I can look at how the music is working. Every music style works on different interests, different approaches. So in term there is no one, all mighty theory that explains everything. While I can explain a Beethoven symphony with functional harmony, I have problems doing the same with a Linkin Park song. So for this I need a different set of tools and language to describe the handwork of the music and its effect. Without knowing the words, the styles, the technique, how do you want to describe what you hear? This is where music theory comes in. It gives you a set so that you can put music into words.

[@helenpanshin5589]

"Simplicity is the final achievement. After one has played a vast quantity of notes and more notes, it is simplicity that emerges as the crowning reward of art." -Frederic Chopin

[@evetsnitram8866]

Good quote. It takes a certain kind of power to find the gold in music.

[@helenpanshin5589]

@@evetsnitram8866 "Power" is an interesting word choice-- I wonder if you could explain what you mean by that? To find the gold in music, I think one needs experience and time. Experience with music in order to know how to best execute it, and life experience to be able to connect emotionally and personally to a piece. Time in order to digest/process a piece to understand its structure. Ultimately, I would interpret the gold you're referring to as a piece's core message, story, or purpose. After all, "Nothing is more odious than music without hidden meaning." -Frederic Chopin

[@evetsnitram8866]

@@helenpanshin5589 Power of discernment, making music that holds up over the eons be it simple or complicated. Gold is gold.

[@helenpanshin5589]

@@evetsnitram8866 Thanks for your reply. If by "discernment" you mean the ability to grasp/comprehend something obscure, then we are in agreement, and I touched on the same idea by mentioning the time and experience necessary to process and execute/perform a piece.

[@evetsnitram8866]

@@helenpanshin5589 It doesn't have to be something obscure and time and experience doesn't really matter, I mean Mozart pumped out music as a kid. Some music sits on a shelf for years. By discernment I mean the ability to get to the good stuff, could be in flash of inspiration, come in a dream, or be an arduous journey.

[@TheNoladrummer]

Music is what I hear in my head. Music theory is how I get others to play it correctly even if I'm not there.

[@becketclark9942]

Absolutely love your videos and the specific "music is not a puzzle with one solution" arguments here. Would you ever sell your sheet music doodles? I think they would make really cool physical things to own

[@lightaces]

I loved this one. The way I've always put it is that music theory isn't a set of rules, it is a language used to communicate with other musicians. But I like that line, "Music theory isn't prescriptive, it's descriptive." That sums it up about perfectly.

[@kumoyuki]

"Music theory can't tell you what is good, it can only tell you what is happening". Perfect. Just perfect

[@nitorishogiplayer3465]

This really made me think about how this is analogous to linguistics where the theory and models are kinda an "afterthought" if you will, like models that are come up with afterwards to explain the stuff that has come up in music, rather than necessarily what you're thinking about when composing. Music as something you're "supposed to" or "supposed not to" do is something I hear too much of that only recently did I think maybe I could let myself have more freedom and not worry about what I'm supposed to/not to do every part of the way.

[@lowstringc]

I LOVE this video and the smooth logical flow. I just gave a very shallow version of this speech to my 5th grade music class this week, and you have given me some better ways to deliver this speech next time. Keep up the good work, there’re many grateful listeners out here...

[@jsk8et]

Music theory is people putting names to things they observe. It’s the process of discovery: find it, name it. We teach in the opposite order: name it, define it, use examples to support the definition, use it, maybe make something new or apply it yourself to new things if you’re advanced. That teaching order makes it feel more rules-based and less like discovery. I think if the teaching method started with examples and then called the student’s attention to the things at play, it would better mimic the discovery process. That would be more natural, easier to learn, and definitely applicable because it’d be a guided tour. It’s learn by doing. Its nature would be clearer IMO. I think this applies to most subjects, not just music theory.

[@cazgerald9471]

I'd turn it around and say "learn the humanities" - all the information is out there and easily accessible.

[@diegodeltoro5190]

This video with this quality of explanation is something this world needed urgently.

[@Binyamin.Tsadik]

Great video! Honestly, music theory is fun, but when writing songs I throw it out the window and just write what I hear in my head. Theory is great for analyzing music and creating cookie cutter music or guessing at what chord you hear in your head or what alternative chord you can use instead.

[@88KeysToPlay]

From someone who teaches and deals with music theory every day, I could agree more. I tell my students to give me a plausible, supportable analysis, NOT the "correct" one. Well done. SUBSCRIBED!

[@TheFrizor]

9:10 And that kids, is how you do a promotion of a great collaborative project

[@merseyviking]

"... completely misunderstands what they are doing..." * draws THE penny farthing *

[@merseyviking]

@Angel of Death I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

[@teravega]

As an artist, I see it in a metaphor. People are trying to be carpenters instead of becoming sailors. Trying to "analyze", "measure" or predict are all elements of science. Art is about the bigger picture, you're an explorer. It's more than hammers, nails, and rulers. Art is like being a sailor, you don't control the ocean, you're riding the waves and you can only steer. But when the storm comes, it's out of your control. All of your emotions are out and raw. Pain, sorrow, excitement, joy, whatever your subconscious is hiding suddenly comes out. It wants to say something and everything you do serves it's master. Some view that art is God talking. Words cannot describe the nature of the experience we call art.

[@Hilde_mann]

I think another important aspect is this weird "Rock 'n Roll"-propaganda, in which people like Dave Grohl (whom I respect for his talent and sucess) have their part, that has led people to believe that having theoretical knoledge and being an authentic musician are mutually exclusive, and in which having had some kind of formal education is something shameful that needs to denied. These people have a tendency to boast loudly about their lack of theoretical knowledge as if it was something that manifests there superiority as musicians and as if having had lessons takes away from your own merit. I think there's something narcissistic and deeply anti-intellectual about this idea that learning from other people's observations and getting help from people more experienced and proficient than yourself is inherently shameful when I think it's in fact a sign of wisdom, curiosity and humility. I think this needs to be adressed more often. Christian Henson put it brilliantly in his great video "Music Theory, Do We Need It?": "If there's something I hate more than the snobbery of the intelligentsia, of the upper classes of these closed systems, it's the promotion of ignorance. And it's something that stems directly from it that i really can't stand, is the (...) nihilists who claim total ignorance over everything they do whilst exhibiting huge amounts of talent and acres of experience" This seems to lead a lot of people to believe they need to protect their idols from any "accusations" of their music exhibiting examples of (conciously or unconciously) applying any theoretical concept, which is something I have observed several times in your comment sections as well as other people's (e.g. Rick Beato)...

[@nurpeachmusic]

I completely resonate with every single word you just said.

[@SomniRespiratoryFlux]

As someone whose primary listening is in the prog subgenres of rock and metal, I have... _feelings_, about the way this happens on both ends. (Because trust me, few genre fangroups are as bafflingly tribalistic or obsessed with "objectively good" music than prog fans or people arguing about why prog sucks.) On one hand, prog fans are rampant with the argument Cory brings up in the video, that technical complexity and virtuosity are what makes one song or style "better" than others, and that's a view I... really despise. It basically just reeks of meaningless snobbery and leads to a lot of bad takes about other music, generalizations that are just patently false and only serve to boost the egos of the people who make them. You know, the whole "this sucks because it's too simple/commercial" nonsense. But then you see so many people go the complete opposite direction, and say that all prog (or some selected examples of "bad" prog) is just empty, meaningless technical skill with no depth to it, and criticize the artists who make that music as overly academic or self-indulgent. And... I don't like that argument either. It falls into the opposite trap of the previous example: while those fans discount how technically complex or skilled other genres and artists are, these ones discount how much feeling and depth prog artists are capable of. It might not always show, sure. But even to some degree I feel "I think it sounds cool and makes me feel X emotion" is the same thing all artists in all genres do, and that includes even the most dense, academically structured prog. Generally, I mean, sure, maybe sometimes it's "because I can" but even that can have value. It's about what the music makes you feel, and that doesn't inherently factor in how technically complex the music is either way. (And to those trying to say prog artists can't make emotional music, listen to Dream Theater's "Take Away My Pain" and tell me that again. Among other songs by other artists. Don't trust single songs you hear on Rock Band videos to tell you everything of a genre or artist, and even more so don't trust 30-second snippets of those songs to tell you all you need to know about those specific songs even.)

[@thediminished98]

This is not snobbery my friend. This is not blissful sinning, but the hardcore kind. This is weeding out competition. Lead people on the wrong path so there are less big concerts in the same day(for paying costumers to chose from) and more space for you on TV and radio. I'm sure that any player understands that holding a chord and not guessing positions every time you pick up your 🎸 is a life-changer, and I know that successful musicians are smart enough to know that knowing more secrets is better. So yeah, maybe a new perspective for the same point.

[@ashenhare4567]

You used narcassism wrong. Narcissism is defined as 'a person who uses a multitude of personalities based on the reaction of other people as proxy to validate their insignificance and insecurities because they perceptually are acceptable to everyone in all situations. Narcissistic people are usually shells of a person, the reality of their true person are deeply seeded inside them, locked away to be expressed soley (if at all) to themselves. They are generally manipulative and have an internal incentive to utilize others as a stepping stone or platform or a tool. You wanted to go into depth and elaborate on your fimiarity with the English language, which is fine and I respect the hustle however, The word you were actually looking for is. egotistical.

[@rillloudmother]

I like that you mentioned that music theory is the description of music that has already been made and not a prescription for music that has yet to be made. The distinction between description and prescription is an an important one.

[@iiroaro808]

7:00 " *sighhh* Ok, LOOK." This is great. Especially the menacing drop in 12tone's voice. This is the exact same thing that happens to me when I have to explain and/or justify the existence of social facts / social constructionism / continental philosophy / pOsTmOdErNiSm to some tech student dweeb, who thinks all social sciences are filled with communists who can't handle fAcTs aNd LoGiC

[@caio_simoneti]

Iiro Aro I was going to say exactly that lol. Wanna annoy a social sciences / humanities scholar? Say “CaPiTaliSm iS a fAcT of nAtURe”. That “ok, look” was so cathartic haha

[@Fabelaz]

wait, so in your country, tech students don't have humanities?

[@iiroaro808]

@@Fabelaz To my knowledge? No. We've got universities, and facilities of higher education for vocational studies (that produce engineers and the like). They're much more "hands-on" and learn things like hard science, that help them do their job. And that's fine. What isn't fine is that they sometimes push a narrative where folks doing a university education are made to seem like lefty loonies, and pretend they're hot shit at economics just because they're "employable" right wing white dudes who watched a couple of JPeterson videos. Like... I've got friends who literally teach Marx at university level dude, we figured this thing out years ago, just... don't. Don't do this. And I think every country's got these kind of edgy kids. The solution? TEACH THE HUMANITIES.

[@Markle2k]

But you are doing the same by treating them like a "them". MIT has been teaching the humanities since the beginning. You can't get an undergrad degree without it. Every school has general education requirements that include the humanities. Often, the in-major credit requirements for humanities majors are much lower because they are already meeting their major requirements in pursuing the mandatory GE curriculum. Many schools require a second language course. It has often been the case that people lamenting this have ventured onto this in technical contexts and have been gently informed that STEM has been moving towards STEAM: Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, and Mathematics. This has been pushed within the STEM crowd, recognizing that those disciplines do not result in a well-rounded individual, pursued exclusively.

[@iiroaro808]

​@@Markle2k MIT sounds like a good place. However, over here it's just a fact that the tech schools don't do this. I'm not lamenting people in hard science fields as a giant "them". In fact, most people in those fields are super intelligent, lovely people. I realize now that my above comment doesn't explicitly clarify this. The people I have an issue with are those "not well-rounded individuals" - the kind of guys (yeah, they're guys) who think humanities are a waste of time, and that universities in general should be assembly lines producing "productive" people for corporations. At least over here, they're a result of a campus culture in some tech institutes that's often super masculine and hierarchic - the leadership comes from big local tech firms, the staff don't have a meaningful say or scientific autonomy, the student culture is sexist as fuck and student activity and involvement in university politics is nonexistent or trivial.

[@milesdoodling1054]

YES! Please do a video about what it means too 'Play by ear'. There is a lot of misconception about it.

[@jacksonpage47]

One of the best videos I’ve seen. You are one of the wisest and most informative content creators in my opinion. Amazing video that really shows the value of all music along with the value of the humanities. I love this channel ❤️❤️

[@AnimeKawaiiFantasyGameMusic]

I have very limited knowledge about music theory and I always wonder how I managed to make music without any music composing classes and I couldn't even play any instruments. I just keep humming, playing around with melodies, until I find a melody I like but that explanation doesn't sound so "professional" making me think I must have done it wrong but it worked anyways. Turns out music theory is just something in you. How you express your musical tastes and that explanation is mind-blowing.

[@Hezv1]

Who would've thought that Sweet Home Alabama would result in so many good video essays on Music Theory

[@leviathoncannon]

With the first point, I'm really glad I had the theory professor I had because even though he did ask us to analyze pieces he was never really strict about the particular chords that went into a particular piece. He was more interested in the journey the music takes and not the minute details of the harmony. He would ask questions like "what key center might we be in this section" rather than pick out particular bars and ask what chords we might analyze. He stressed that in some cases functional harmony might not even apply, and we would move across all kinds of solfege when singing, like fixed do, movable, uninflected fixed do. We would analyze more the textures of the harmonies in relation to the harmonies around it rather than just the isolated harmonies of a single bar. What kind of feeling does this particular texture invoke? We definitely worked more with abstracting, and imagining theoretical melodies and harmonies over, for instance, a melodic like he would give us. What kind of harmonies might this Melody point to? We had arrangement projects throughout the course. He would give us a Melody from some song (without telling us which song) and we were challenged to arrange the Melody, as in provide instrumentation, harmonies, counter lines, things like that. He would teach us lots of complicated chord progression that are common among many genres of music, and this was sort of a primer for what kind of textures to think about when arranging melodies. And the nice thing is that the same Melody can be arranged in multiple ways, with completely different chord progression, and therefore textures! It was such a good way to illustrate this, and get people thinking texturally than harmonically. I hope that anyone who might be interested in music theory and teaching it will keep things like this in mind, rather than the rote that my piano teach tells me about from her music theory classes. I told her about this and she said "you make music theory class sound fun." And that's how it should be!

[@nihil1]

Wow... Just wow. This video started so simple and nice and then it got as deep as it gets.

[@sarahp6512]

Coming from a science student (with many arts hobbies): TEACH THE HUMANITIES!!! I stg it's so important for society for people to understand and appreciate the arts AND stem subjects.

[@apothecurio]

Honestly I only needed to learn all the modes of major (with diatonic chords) and all interval types and their emotional content in an octave starting at a root note. Just with that I’ve been able to make good sounding music. I’ve been going deeper but when I had those two things down and memorized I was able to start making music with literally any emotion I want.

[@thomdotexe]

You are going to make a fine teacher some day, anybody would be lucky to be in a classroom with you. Very good and clear video, great work.

[@MusicianParadise]

I hope 12T does not become a teacher and will continue to make those videos, so we can stay in his classroom as long as possible

[@thomdotexe]

Musician Paradise Yeah true, i’m just assuming that’s a goal of his a lot of my friends at university make these kinda videos to practice their teaching. When I say teacher I mean university/ conservatoire teacher when he’s like 40/50 years old though

[@derrickmelton5844]

I think the problem is that there are aspects discussed in theory which are fully framed and discussed based on scientific properties...like the ratio between pitches being responsible for the tonal quality we hear, or the fact overtones are primarily the integer multiples of the root pitch, etc...so scientific facts and properties do exist within the study of theory, which can give the incorrect perception that music theory takes a fully scientific approach to the study and application of it...and as you noted most of it is because of how theory is introduced; the foundations of music theory are based on more objective truths like the forming of triads and the intervals between pitches...so one naturally can be led to assume everything presented in future lessons will be more objective than subjective.

[@supreetkurdekar5726]

Hey, im a math and engineering student. Ive done little else all my life and am just starting my music journey. Im so thankful for this video. For describing what you music theory even means. For putting it in reerence to the theory of gravity. That statement about finding a solution! that was genius. I cant put all my understanding here, but thank you so much!!!

[@pr0file91]

I just realised that you always time your videos so that you finish your pictogram and take away your arm for a moment right on the emphasised syllable you're currently speaking. I can't unsee it now. It looks like you take away your hand to hit a drum on every important word to keep us listening to you rhythm of information and well-thought concepts. :D

[@jameshansen1903]

The most insightful observation here is, "Music theory doesn't predict, it reflects," demonstrating that 'music theory' isn't theory at all. If we're comparing music theory to other sciences (which we shouldn't do for reasons you've explained), then it's because it is poorly named in the first place. I'm not sure what it should be called instead-music doctrine?-but good theory is that which makes predictions about the world. Music theory isn't that.

[@dmitrypetrouk8924]

music analysis?

[@ronnleemorris6817]

Look up the formal definition of theory.

[@KayrBayr13]

You just said what I've always thought; music theory is for looking at why music conveys the messages it does, but it isn't meant to be used to make music that conveys a specific message.

[@thediminished98]

I know that some people attempted to make some happy locrian tunes, but I wouldn't recommmend.

[@musicaljunkyart8756]

Wow, you really hit the nail with this video! I started my journey in music theory assuming that it was a science and with this mindset I was trying to explain everything about music with scientific terms. This approach made me really detached from my feelings and the reasons why music is so awesome. I wish someone told me this earlier! Also I agree about modern society and this problem is something that I noticed about myself and others too.I truly love science (I study engineering) but I wish art and humanities weren't so undermined especially in my field. Everyone is going to benefit from their appreciation because they give us the tools to better understand ourselves and the people around us!

[@TimondeNood]

I think this cannot be emphasized enough and I'm really happy someone made an actual video about this. Thank you

[@on_certainty]

that project you mention at the end is amazing

[@charlesporsbjer2416]

Wow, you really dropped the bomb on us. Thanks for the amazing content!

[@sepehrsetakhr4996]

“Thats not how music behave in the wild”😂😂

[@trizgo_]

something about that whole final segment really struck a chord with me (pun not intended). I want this whole episode's script as a poster.

[@monoscopes]

I absolutely love how you represented "misconception" here.

[@TriplicateTrey]

Most educational first 40 seconds ever

[@anaykumaroff]

Incredibly well-thought out and well-said

[@variancewithin]

I'm so glad someone finally said it. Was that sweet home example an Adam Neely reference?

[@joirwin2636]

I’ve always thought of music theory at its most basic level as psychology for music. It’s about perceptions, relationships, common denominators and themes and motifs, how it affects us, how it makes us feel, what it triggers or evokes in us, etc. I know that’s not all it is, but that’s the way I’ve always felt about it.

[@SpaveFrostKing]

The problem isn't that people treat music theory like science, it's that people treat science like a list of immutable objective facts. Scientific theories are generally just frameworks for simplifying the world to make it more easy to talk about, understand, and predict what might happen in an unfamiliar situation. There's nothing unscientific about music theory.

[@nickb8507]

Music theory class is tough. I constantly have to remember no parallel 5ths, no doubling 3rds in a major chord, avoid voice crossing, etc. every time you violate any of these rules, it’s a point off. I honestly can’t wait to be done with the class.

[@SpookyLuvCookie]

You don't need a better argument than "I like it." gr8 vid

[@thediminished98]

But the person that invested time effort and money in their musicianship, must make the best of it. That person wants to make good memories at the campfire so to not waste said time effort, and money. So taking some classes would dramatically increase the chances of that happening. Yeah there are many things that the geeks haven't discovered yet, but the best way to work for years on your own and discover those things are 1 have a base that allows you to have fun for said 10 years. 2 study to make sure you are not searching for something that someone else already discovered.

[@oravlaful]

6:13 sick ben shrapoonu burn. if you'd said "and their wife is a doctor " i would've been so happy also this is my new favourite 12tone video

[@adamrad2220]

My only problem with this part is the implication (when taken to an extreme) that a child thumping on a desk is of equal musical value to a Beethoven symphony. If you dismiss (which he does) value placed on all the quantifiable qualities of music, then you are left with the notion that there is no intrinsic value in....well, anything in particular. It's all equal and up to the interpreter. I agree with what he said on one hand, but it's hard to square with the child thumping = Beethoven notion.

[@oravlaful]

@@adamrad2220 they have a video on the subject. I think it's called "what is music"

[@joaoastral]

"harder to make bombs out of" That was so good!!!!! 💜

[@rusca8]

+

[@wes4439]

+

[@xaveg.7721]

Crazy helpful. I often overcomplicated my Music so I can show people that I understand music and it's theory. But most of my more simple songs are like way Better and I like them much more. So that Video really helped me make better decision for the future. Thanks Man

[@bransunmitchellartist9229]

This gives me hope, i got very depressed after listening to all these popular youtubers say “you want to be a better guitarist/musician? Learn music theory.” And so i would try to force my music to sound like some theoretical masterpiece, but each of those songs did not have an ounce of “me” in them. It was more like i was trying to fit in a cookie cutter mold. But looking at music theory from this perspective “music theory is descriptive not prescriptive” validates that my expression of music is different and unique, but also that i can be a humble learner, rather than fighting with myself about one or the other.

[@tymime]

Honestly, if it takes that many layers to make a modern pop song, it doesn't amount to much to my ears. All I hear is the big booming synth bass, the big booming drums, and the vocals. My guess is that it's mostly played in unison sort of like Phil Spector's Wall of Sound, which has a pretty similar smeary, indistinguishable quality to it. I like Phil Spector well enough, but he always sounded muddy to me.

[@jacobdgm]

What, then, of theorists who come at music analysis from a mathematic/scientific direction? There are some times when it makes a lot of sense to look at a big body of music, come up with some clear questions, and run statistical analyses - the results won't tell you whether the music is good or not, but they can definitely tell you objective things about the collection of pieces/recordings you were considering. I agree with what you're saying in general - teach the humanities! - but I'm worried that people will come away from this video thinking that anyone who does empirical music theory is doing something wrong.

[@phred23]

@Angel of Death Also stated as "the menu is not the meal"

[@DragonWinter36]

Isn’t that musicology, not music theory?

[@jacobdgm]

@limelight81 So "empirical" is one question, "absolute" is another. One simple idea for an empirical study is to take all of the pieces written by a composer, transpose them to the same tonic, and count up how many times each note occurs. If you do this for several composers, and the distributions are different, it may help in explaining differences between the composers' styles. But just because a study takes an empirical approach doesn't mean its findings are absolute - you need knowledge of the music's wider context in order to interpret the results, and also to design the study in the first place. For example, the study I suggested above might work well for a style that depends heavily on musical notation, but would not be very meaningful for styles passed on orally and/or styles that involve a lot of improvisation.

[@Hilde_mann]

This is the most important video on music theory on the internet and it's not even close. Holy moly, you make some *really* important points and surprise by painting a much bigger picture here. I need everybody to see this. Thanks so much!

[@-nomi.-]

im late, but i love you for saying this. as a humanities student who's proud of my work and feels like it's an impossible task to ever hope to meet the level of established researchers in the field i find it frustrating to see it devalued and 'dumb' compared to stem

[@veryveryold]

This video speaks to my soul. I used to get so frustrated with other theoreticians for their approach to music theory, and I’m still frustrated with what I like to call “music boomers” for their genre superiority complex

[@juanarreguin1]

Thank you for this video!! I try to explain how subjective music really is, and this video nails it in the head! Fantastic channel!

[@hedron1985]

Took the words out my mouth. Fantastic analysis.

[@numbstation]

Hell yes. Your application of the hammer-nail theory vis-a-vis educational policy is just plain right, in a direct and satisfying way. I might substitute "engineering" for "science", but only in a nitpicky way: scientists believe in rules, sure, but good ones also still tend to understand their own ignorance of the rules. There's still a lot of the ol' humanism in the sciences, maybe especially in physics - which you call out in the video. Engineers (including medical doctors, app developers, commercial ad designers, financial planners, etc.), on the other hand, use scientific or quasi-scientific rules to figure out how various Legos fit together, in order to make something fit for market... it's a subtle difference, but important IMHO, when we're talking about things like what gets funded and what doesn't in educational policy, or how different knowledge domains are valued in society, and how those valuations affect us culturally. Anyway, it makes sense why we might prefer modes of cultural expression (and critique of cultural expression) that can be reduced to a handy list of technical bullet points, and I'm glad you called it out...

[@alexh3601]

This reminds me a lot of the assumptions used in the sciences to simplify learning to not overload students in the beginning.

[@99kylies15]

A lot of this music theory stuff is over my head, but I still appreciate these videos :D

[@tempest_dawn]

I don't recall who, when, or where, but I remember an author once saying it's harder for them to write short stories than long ones - the difficulty is in keeping all the important elements of a story while also fitting it into a smaller format. I think it's often helpful to think of that in other contexts: a complex piece of art can be impressive in its design and execution, but a simple one can also be impressive in its clarity and simplicity.

[@chrissahar2014]

The purpose of Roman Numeral Analysis stems from thorough bass which was simply a method to accompany others and improvise. It was a method to improve performance. Schenckerian analysis which does a reduction from complexity is probably the one theoretical analysis which proposes there is no one solution as long as you can make a convincing arguement. Furthermore it is the process of reduction which provides the insight. And even in common practice, if you look at something as the Tocata in F for organ by Bach you see an incredibly complex theoretical structure and some daring motivic and contrapuntal transformations.

[@joshmarquis3536]

I play traditional rock instruments like guitar, bass and drums, as well as a few misc. instruments, most of which I'm not proficient enough to honestly be able to claim to play, like piano, cello, and mandolin etc.. Among my peers, of all ages, I'm one of the few people that knows music theory. When I try to encourage other musicians to learn music theory, a lot of them turn it down because they think it's music rules, or that knowing it will stifle their creativity. I tend to tell them that music theory, for an already accomplished musician, is more of a proper vocabulary than instructions. I tell them that everything you do has a name, and that name is often the quickest way to convey what you're doing. For instance if I say, "This riff is the G minor scale ascending to the fifth degree.", that's much quicker than telling them which fret on which string, one note at a time. It certainly serves many other functions; but for the very talented people I play with, that would be its main function. They are talented and experienced enough that the few things music theory could expose them to, that they haven't already figured out by ear or intuition, would be ideas that wouldn't serve them in any practical sense, and would be purely academic

[@falsaapariencia5898]

This is the best video of yours I've watched. A deep reflection on a complex matter. I was very pleased by the way you insert humanist perspective into the subject. Perhaps the weight of music theory in some of our judgements about musics' value has to do with how written language is seen as much more authoritative than oral knowledge. Music analysis should lead the way to prove that all human cultural production has an intrinsic value of its own and that, as you say, how good or bad or 'legtimate' it is has to do all with our very own perspective. Anyways, cheers for your video and channel.

[@ImpliedMusic]

thank you. i've been working on a theory series designed to support individual perspectives... this could be required viewing.

[@jehmarxx]

Of course, as a physics student who also makes music, I could technically view music theory as both science and art. For me, it is not wrong at all to look at music theory as a science. This could be a secondary step to understanding music theory by learning the "feel" of certain music genres and chords, and then looking at its syntheses in an empirical way. It's just how amateurs like me naturally think.

[@TheaL8r_01]

Hey 12 Tone! First. I love your vids and I think your content is amazingly high quality, high education value, high entertainment value, and super super open in terms of point of view. Secondly. I have a song analysis suggestion! I would love to see you do The Sky is a Neighborhood by the Foo Fighters. Because it’s an awesome song, I love the Foos, and because the chords are kinda interesting!! Not a typical progression at all. Regardless, love your content and keep on making such amazing stuff!!! Keep on rockin! :p

[@SomeCollege]

Very good point. 7 Skies produced a song called “Are We On Air” and I can’t really say definitively what key it is in.

[@swissarmyknight4306]

I find it helpful to think of music theory as a language that I use to describe what I or someone else is doing. It isn't rules and I regret that it is so often taught as such. The only thing that matters in analysis is whether it is usefully describing what is going on. There are often multiple useful ways to describe something in music.

[@reenigne_esrever]

6:50 drawing a hypercube to illustrate "real definable object"... nice touch

[@519pale]

This was the most profound and inspiring discussion of music theory I’ve ever heard.

[@pharmesq]

If you can't weaponize music, explain "Never gonna give you up!" Ha! :-D

[@dlwatib]

Or Darude's Sandstorm.

[@jaschabull2365]

I take you Never Gonna Give You Up, and raise you Pianoman. ....And now it's in your head too.

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

Dude this was a philosophical tour de force.... kudos!

[@Felix-dz2hv]

I think one of the most important things I learned from studying composition is that music is reliant on many physical factors that determine how a person persives it. Of course sound waves are the most obvious example but the human brain and ear are also extremely relevant to music as a phenomenon. I think one of the ways music theory can be understood is as a means of understanding these "building blocks" and how they can be used to communicate meanings, evoke emotions or induce sensations. Although I don't think calling it a science is appropriate, I do think discussing music theory with a level of scientific scrutiny is nessisary before making any diffinitive statements on the effect of music on a listener.

[@dudebro7698]

If you went off on that aforementioned long diatribe I would have stuck around. You were on a roll, my man.

[@agurtinez]

yes! music comes first, theory comes second. it's not about learning the perfect way to write music, or like, writing THE music, as in how all music should sound like. theory can give a hint on where to start, but you should never be afraid to flesh out. For the past year I've felt enormous pressure and writers block, thinking that the best music i wrote was behind me. i took one year of musicology and had a totally wrong approach to it, i thought that somewhere along the way it would teach me what exactly it is that makes music great, like the secret formula or something (partly the fault of semi-unsociable lecturers, but yeah). now i'm studying music production and am given the freedom to record in the school studio for as long as I want, I feel like a kid again. It's all about having fun and letting yourself do exactly whatever you want. leave it to the musicologists to write the history.

[@jimmyowenmusic]

Stunning, absolutely love this. The explanation and you're philosophy on theory is wonderful! Big love from the UK

[@seiph80]

At 7:44... the persistence of memory. Brilliant.

[@simonkawasaki4229]

This just applies to all education. You have to grudge through the at-times boring pedagogy to find your own voice and opinion in the subject matter.

[@Oneirovore]

6:28 This distinction escaped me for the beginning of my composition education. Signal booost.

[@jaxonmoore1355]

My favorite quote of all time might now be "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

[@MarkGarbettLlanigan]

Your videos are always entertaining and informative. This one is no exception

[@MarkGarbettLlanigan]

Also you draw good elephants

[@FlorissMusic]

Just finished the video. Loved it as always! Please never stop making videos!

[@peternicholas3719]

This is the best video, conforming to all the rules of making good videos.

[@jonlohrenz5446]

Often times it takes more skill to make a great song using a only a few notes and chords than it does to throw everything at the wall and see if it sticks.

[@existencewill880]

I've always wanted to study philosophy and history (and have to an extent), but some people respond to that by asking "what kind of jobs do you get with that?" and it makes me mad to no end. But I've been realizing that I don't really care what they say, and I'm gonna keep studying the humanities; so I think you gave a perfect explanation for the same thing that frustrates me about a lack of support for the humanities (and it all goes back to the age of enlightenment). And I do realize now that it's not really most people's faults, but the hegemony's, and now I'm thinking of starting a channel to educate people.