#163

Layne Norton is a physique coach, a natural professional bodybuilder and powerlifter, and holds a Ph.D. in nutritional sciences. In this episode, Layne explains how he became interested in weightlifting and fitness both professional and academically. He provides insights into preventing and managing injuries while using consistency and determination to boost his professional success in bodybuilding and powerlifting. Peter and Layne also review the science of body composition and what’s really driving muscle growth, including the role of nutrition, supplements, and a number of important and misunderstood hormones important to muscle protein synthesis. Furthermore, Layne stresses the importance of maintaining muscle mass even while losing fat for improving metabolic health and longevity and provides the keys to developing healthy habits.
We discuss:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:09 - Layne’s childhood and why he gravitated towards weightlifting and bodybuilding
00:10:25 - Layne’s academic path, overcoming ADHD, and kicking Adderall
00:21:35 - Paradoxical observations about expertise, and Layne’s career transition to health and fitness
00:33:05 - The power of persistence and resilience in the face of setbacks
00:45:00 - Battling injuries, managing back pain, and setting lifting records
01:01:20 - Bodybuilding vs. powerlifting: comparing and contrasting the training approaches
01:10:45 - Cutting weight without losing muscle mass: exercise and dietary protocols, fasting, and a look at the literature
01:31:35 - Muscle protein synthesis and the importance of leucine
01:44:12 - Nitrogen balance and muscle protein synthesis, and the regulatory role of hormones for fat flux and muscle growth
01:54:13 - What’s really driving muscle growth: intrinsic vs. systemic factors, IGF, and hormone signaling
02:03:45 - The role of protein, carbohydrates and insulin on muscle growth and preservation, and the importance of context when interpreting study results
02:16:53 - Clarifying the role of cortisol-a misunderstood hormone
02:24:30 - The problem with studies trying to isolate one nutrient
02:29:05 - The important role of inflammation from exercise
02:33:47 - Keys to preserving muscle, and the value of habits, consistency, and resilience
Show notes page: peterattiamd.com/laynenorton/
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About:
The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 30 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.
Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life).
Learn more: peterattiamd.com
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[@PeterAttiaMD]

In this episode we discuss: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:09 - Layne’s childhood and why he gravitated towards weightlifting and bodybuilding 00:10:25 - Layne’s academic path, overcoming ADHD, and kicking Adderall 00:21:35 - Paradoxical observations about expertise, and Layne’s career transition to health and fitness 00:33:05 - The power of persistence and resilience in the face of setbacks 00:45:00 - Battling injuries, managing back pain, and setting lifting records 01:01:20 - Bodybuilding vs. powerlifting: comparing and contrasting the training approaches 01:10:45 - Cutting weight without losing muscle mass: exercise and dietary protocols, fasting, and a look at the literature 01:31:35 - Muscle protein synthesis and the importance of leucine 01:44:12 - Nitrogen balance and muscle protein synthesis, and the regulatory role of hormones for fat flux and muscle growth 01:54:13 - What’s really driving muscle growth: intrinsic vs. systemic factors, IGF, and hormone signaling 02:03:45 - The role of protein, carbohydrates and insulin on muscle growth and preservation, and the importance of context when interpreting study results 02:16:53 - Clarifying the role of cortisol-a misunderstood hormone 02:24:30 - The problem with studies trying to isolate one nutrient 02:29:05 - The important role of inflammation from exercise 02:33:47 - Keys to preserving muscle, and the value of habits, consistency, and resilience

[@stratfordfallon7086]

Io

[@paulieschmitt2001]

8:54 😊

[@contrerasmcr100]

I can't belive this is free

[@WillPeterson]

Right?!

[@felipearbustopotd]

Is it? The device you use, the way you access all costs. Thankfully the information is not behind a paywall. 😀

[@d.a.petras1032]

Don't give him any ideas!

[@stenmin1234]

Layne's comments on confidence is spot on. And that small building block style is the key to even dealing with depression and anxiety. And it needs to be positively reinforced.

[@OfficialBeeswax]

Layne's experience with having to work hard as a kid, which set him up for success later, strongly resonate with me, since I'm the exact opposite. I was the kid who, throughout primary and secondary (high) school never had to study for anything and would still get good grades all around. I could probably count on my fingers the number of hours I spent studying through high school. However, this meant I went to university utterly unprepared to actually study, and I dropped out without obtaining a degree. I'm lucky enough to still have landed an excellent career in IT, still working at a masters degree level position, but at 32, I still have difficulty actually having to study for something

[@boydhooper4080]

This was IMO 1 of the best health, fitness and lifestyle podcasts ever by any standard. Fantastic. Bring on part 2

[@johnd5619]

This was awesome. You guys do an amazing job of letting each other speak and finish an idea. Very refreshing!!

[@high0nfire]

I could listen to these guys all day

[@lisafaser6031]

Absolutely fantastic! Two big brains sharing life changing information for free. I can’t wait for part 2! Thank you gentlemen!🙏🏻💪🙏🏻

[@tc59932]

Best podcast episode I’ve ever seen on the topic of muscle, fitness or nutrition. Thanks so much.

[@richardnorris7948]

I am a medical doctor trained in physical medicine with fellowship training in both orthopedics and interventional spine medicine. I’ve been in practice nearly 40 years. At around minute 50:00, Layne is talking about his injury. He said the MRI showed disk herniations and Stuart McGill told him not to be concerned about it because many asymptomatic people have the same. The injury Layne is describing sounds much more like a sacroiliac joint subluxation. This does not show up on x-ray or MRI and so things that DO show up often tend to be blamed for the problem. People generally do not feel “locked up“ with a disk herniation. That is a mechanical symptom and sacroiliac subluxation is a mechanical problem. The sacrum is the platform for all the loading that happens through the spine and with weight lifting that is enormous. There’s nothing underneath the sacrum so there’s a tremendous shearing force that happens across the SI joint that can exceed the strength of the ligaments and then the joint shifts a little bit. The surfaces are rough and irregular and not made to move against each other so when it moves it can lock up and be excruciatingly painful to the point where the person can’t move. I have had patients hospitalized due to the severity of the pain for this problem. Richard Norris,MD

[@lf7065]

That's where a good chiropractor can help, from my personal experience! 🙂

[@richardnorris7948]

@@lf7065 Yes-I do often prescribe manual therapy which can be done by DO's, specially trained PT's and DC's. But it's also important to not overlook both active and passive joint stabilization in order to avoid repeated SI subluxations.

[@esvedra2419]

This was the best flowing conversation on KZbin yet. I really liked the part Layne talked about his own experiences and that made him in my eyes very interesting and charismatic person. I really like his balanced approach and that he isn't afraid to say he doesn't know something for sure (too many experts on everything on KZbin these days!) And the amount of wisdom he acquired for a 39 yrs old is truly astonishing. Both Peter Attia and Layne Norton are always a pleasure to listen to!

[@wmartonejr]

Not sure why but @PeterAttia brought out the best in @LaneNorton here. Two totally different personalities yet a productive conversation. No controversial statements while also stating some inarguable truths. Good content from both

[@lorenzonioi7855]

Listening to this while working today was a life saver, thx doc

[@PrimalBodhi]

A great conversation! I can't wait for part 2. I especially liked the last two sections starting a 2:29.

[@metabolicnutritionist2311]

We need more of these kinds of conversations going on....

[@zxsw85]

Ok bro

[@metabolicnutritionist2311]

@@zxsw85 ok

[@iamdedlok]

Holy Crap! I loved this episode! I am obese, and have recently picked up resistance training ( maybe just over 1 month) and doing OMAD for few months. This episode so jam packed with information, I find it fascinating! I need to rewatch this again and again to make sense of so much information! Thanks Dr Attia and Dr Norton for doing this collab! What a legend!

[@matthowerules]

Good luck on your journey, man, you got this. Make small changes, stay consistent, and you’ll be there in no time. Layne has a great playlist called why diets fail that kept me motivated and on track that I would recommend. Fwiw, it took me many failed attempts and years before it finally clicked. So from a stranger on the Internet, you can do it 💪💪

[@carlaprata8119]

Many, many thanks for simplifying such complex findings! One of the best podcasts I have ever heard. Very generous of both of you.

[@mishkathlay]

I can't get enough of these two!! Thank you!

[@johncordoue7829]

Substance and nuance on complex subjects like humans seeking optimal health. I am drawn to these bright, yet humble experts. Thanks.

[@Austinwhite918]

I've been waiting for a pod like this. Keep it up!

[@liutasx]

Respect to Layne and Peter for this very interesting podcast. Thank you!!!

[@matthewabraham8946]

Stick till' the end. The part on consistency and creating a whole new You is simply awesome and will resonate with everyone. Super stuff!

[@IvicaOS]

omg how fantastic this was, what a geat guy this guest is, and Peter’s pods in general…fantastic, unbelievable…👊🏻💪🏻🤗🙋🏻‍♂️

[@RezaSMahani]

This is an extremely honest conversation, refreshingly so. Some highlights: 00:35:00 - detrimental effects of early success? 00:41:00 - Set backs, endurance, confidence 01:05:00 - Body building as a preferred mode of suffering :) 01:45:00 - Delicate issues in Metabolism (Protein and Fat) 02:35:00 - Habits and consistency 02:38:00 - Forming new identity

[@Virtual-Media]

Relatable in so many ways. Podcasts are some of the best content on YT.

[@imliz100]

Good interview/information. Thanks to both.

[@Badabinger]

Been a while since I clicked this quick. Truthseekers unite. LOVE to see great people like you collab. We need more people like you who seek objective scientifically based analysis.

[@natalialazik6355]

Simply Amazing ! Mind blowing … everyone must listen at least twice!

[@kabou911]

Excellent podcast!! Can't wait for part 2!

[@ericgonser1544]

This was my first time seeing your podcast. I am a fan of Laynes so I thought I would watch and actually ended up watching the whole thing. Great interview with awesome questions.

[@alexanderohanlon8825]

Arrrr maaan! You jumped in and totally throw the convo off when it was getting intresting on igf1.

[@connormcneill9024]

Loved this collab! Didn't expect it but I'm super happy it happened. Looking forward to the next (several?) sessions, especially since you can both intelligently talk through some of the more nuanced science.

[@jayalanlife5926]

Peter, thanks for putting this up, I watch all of your KZbin videos that you put up. I am not a subscriber to your podcast for all the obvious reasons but I absolutely get do much from your stuff. I am 100% not learned enough to understand but a small % but I do get enough to give me a relative slingshot from where I started in regards to all things "longevity"; from these insights I feel in some control of my well-being. At 68 I can outwit, outplay and outlast. Cheers Alan

[@ryanfollweiler691]

Really happy to see this collab

[@robriste]

AWESOME,, thanks gents, looking forward to parts 2,3,4,5,6,7,8...

[@dpmercado5400]

You are very sincere Dr. Layne! You are great!

[@leechild4]

This is great. Two of my favourite experts!! Let the knowledge bombs commence!!

[@charissefilteau3372]

Loved this! Thanks so much to you both. I'm a HUGE fan:)

[@jaspaulbul4282]

Thanks, guys. This was a great discussion.

[@swimraces]

The last 10 minutes of this discussion are very plain-english and worthy of a highlight reel. Appreciate you steering the discussion in that direction. Looking forward to part 2, whenever it happens.

[@Job-westinga]

Yeah the last part about consistency and identity are so eye-opening

[@tiffanylbacon]

I absolutely love to geek out on all this stuff!

[@thomasjones9559]

First time I enjoyed anything Layne was on. No offense but this was the first really productive and sensible talk I've seen.

[@skateata1]

The comments on the confodence curve in studing is so true. I'm in grad school and that is how I feel.

[@ajgraziano3558]

First of all thank you Dr. Attia and Dr. Norton for all the work you share emotionally, physically, and academically. Loved those old videos of Dr. Norton circa 2000s roaring up the gym in preparation for a big set! Definitely inspired me to reach 500#s on Deadlift. I can’t imagine putting myself out on social media for so long being one of the originals to focus on muscle protein synthesis in that arena. The social media world is a crazy place to navigate to say the least. Loved the shoutout to Stu McGill, have been referencing the McGill Bird Dog to clients for years! We need more doctors lifting heavy!…Lets GO! Thanks for not following the surgeon route Dr. Attia haha Good luck in your muscle building journey. Time to ease up on the fasting and lift heavy focusing on alignment. Create options through perfect alignment and BREATH! Best.

[@eb8232]

Thanks for breaking things down for the average listener. I am a teacher and don't have a background in medicine, but this was manageable to understand.

[@thomasgrimm1664]

Love this format with video! Might have to sign up finally :)

[@StevePhillips76]

Great conversation! I enjoyed the long form and being able to get into nuance rather than the debate style shorter answers. I look forward to the next one too!

[@cknight4281]

Please have him back again. Amazing podcast

[@darthtesla301]

I forgot how enjoyable this podcast is

[@Valandovchanec]

Great podcast! Thanks

[@alantyth]

Your podcasts are getting better and better (from exceptionally high baseline). Best one yet.

[@jackiebardsley9946]

I almost didn't listen to this one. I'm very interested in healthy aging, but not particularly interested in power lifting or bodybuilding. I thought I'd listen for just the first few minutes. Almost three hours later 😏 .... another excellent discussion. Dr Attia is such a great interviewer.

[@Reutzel507]

Great show. Two guys I look up to in this space.

[@kimandreblikas1762]

Fantastic episode👏 What a powerful and inspirational end-speach from Layne 🙏 Gratefull for the podcast 🙏

[@terrypeters8682]

Good back and forth communication. Regarding injury, I have always recovered faster by continuing some form of resistance training.

[@jamesgordon8867]

You will never know how much discussions like this matter. Wish more could be this honest 😊

[@mayrakennedy6200]

This is a great combo of experts.

[@Solidfreeman01]

That should be really interesting. Time for popcorn.

[@WillPeterson]

Fuck this just gets better and better as it goes. The last 45 minutes hits with so many life lessons I need to watch it again.

[@knight9464]

Dr. Attia is an esteemed scientist first and accordingly an intelligent MD. We lack good thinkers amongst the majority of doctors out there. PLEASE, I kindly ask you to give us YOUR valuable and frank opinion on plant based diet in relationship to Heart Disease, Artherogenesis, Reversal of arteriosclerosis, ALSO relationships with muscle tissue maintenance. A lot of us are lost, and we need an "AUTHORITY" and an intelligent minded man like you make some sense out of this very important subject. Many thanks to all your efforts

[@danielmarich4147]

Great content! Thanks

[@triplea7282]

Outstanding info!

[@AlphaMale_1]

I like Lanye, intelligent and down to earth.

[@Lurksin1]

Can’t wait for the next one

[@M3W3]

3hr video but took me 4hrs to finish cuz some part I have to listen few times to digest and some I even need to google to read up more details. Enjoy it so much. By the time the video end, I realize I want to listen more, there is so much to learn. Thank you for the great video, by the way this is the first time I came across ur channel and just start to subscribe.

[@jimbo4187]

Great content here. Learned so much from this podcast and was great to hear both parties speak on their areas of expertise.

[@jamesgordon8867]

Thanks 😊

[@firstjupiter]

Best episode ever!

[@Patryk....]

Peter, explore mTOR, IGF1, Leucine etc. in more detail conversation next time. Thanks.

[@monztermovies]

Whoa!!!! Two of my favorite teachers together! Can’t wait to listen, I’m sure it won’t disappoint! 😎

[@Greg_Chock]

That was great advice about a general biology degree.

[@melissadoyley6672]

I don’t see the shark video! Any chance you still have it? Amazing podcast by the way!

[@mitchsmeekes3333]

Amazing episode so much intresting viewpoints. Wondering what the name of the Sytem. Review with marie schreckley on wieghtloss maintinace is? have not been able to find it. Thank a ton

[@rayF4rio]

Excellent discussion. On identity: When you look in the mirror, who do you see? How do you self identify? Critical to make lifestyle changes.

[@paigel9534]

I’ve been with a PT for the last 14 weeks and I’ve managed to get my goal weight in that’s time, and go back to the gym which was super scary for me. Starting to tone up and get my strength training in now!

[@indy1440]

This was amazing. I followed Layne on all the socials and am looking forward to diving into his work in my transformation.

[@jimfife6255]

At 1:14:00 Lane talks about the increasing difficulty of losing fat without losing muscle, as one gets leaner. My analogy is pouring fat off the drippings of a roast: the more fat you pour off, the harder it is not to start pouring off the broth [muscle]. And you can do it, but you gotta go slow.

[@Rob-me8vp]

Movement is healing. It’s not a question of do you exercise, it is question of what type, how intense and what duration. With regard to pain, pain is predominantly chemical, mechanical and psychological. Depending on the combination of these types of pain dictates the intervention and the success of the outcome.

[@pcfreakx]

I consider Dr Attia to be my spirit animal on medical advice. I dedicated to a Keto diet because of him (still do), I took up fasting cause of him (and Dr. Jason Fung), I follow his longevity advice. But I also no follow Layne and find him to be pretty fair and reasonable. For a lot of us (I was pre-diabetic, had NAFLD, etc), Keto is a bit of a necessity to address metabolic fitness. But I love to hear these guys discuss the science. It is depressingly hard to find the ground truth here. It's soooo complicated (and I worked in a nobel prize winning lab at a Med School - I love science!).

[@ayeshavlogsfun]

Bio Lyne is against Keto and Dr Peter attia is no longer Follow keto Brother...

[@SLude480]

@@ayeshavlogsfun lol Layne is not against keto. He’s against keto myths. His OWN app allows you to choose keto to diet with, if you choose.

[@pcfreakx]

@@ayeshavlogsfun As I said I follow both so I'm aware of their stances. Also, as I said, because I had non-alcoholic fatty liver and insulin resistance I prioritized cutting my carbs to the bone over all other nutrition goals. I think if you're obese/insulin resistant, you're much better off to address that first with a Keto approach til you restore metabolic health. Now I can binge on carbs for a day and not really have a huge reaction. Blood sugar spikes, and then falls quickly. But I still eat very low carb.

[@praveen25]

Haven't watched the whole thing yet, but from the timestamps doesn't seem like they directly touched upon Calories In vs Calories Out. I wish they had, Layne is a big proponent of CICO, whereas Peter has written that the reality is a lot more nuanced than that. Would have been interesting to hear about the basis for Layne's position on this.

[@s.h306]

I've landed on, "Try CICO strictly and see if it works, if it doesn't then try other shit because CICO doesn't always work, and other shit can work too". I was recently told by a CICO proponent coach (Also a KZbinr) that my body probably doesn't didn't handle carbs well and I should eliminate them as much as possible. I think a lot of these guys take hard stances to get clicks and simplify things for the 70% of people that standard CICO would work for.

[@kami_dende]

You’re probably confusing CICO with counting calories / macros. CICO is just energy balance.

[@haydenthediggerinajtes9919]

@@s.h306 CICO is literally the way your body loses weight.

[@praveen25]

@@haydenthediggerinajtes9919 I urge you to look up Peter's blog post on this topic - "Do calories matter?"

[@praveen25]

@@kami_dende By CICO, I'm referring to the idea that the influx/efflux of fat stores in your body depends only on the calorific value of the food you consume, and not the actual type of food.

[@jennydejesus72]

Gurlllll you crack me and not trying to sound weird but you are a younger version of me!!!! Omgggggg I need to read those books you recommend because you freaking made me realize I have a freaking binge eating disorder. I’ve been struggling to lose weight my WHOLE life. And I said that by age 50 I wanted to get on stage but thyroid issues kicked in and then covid. Well I’m not giving up!!!!!! I need to get those books and share my story as a middle age woman!!!!! We need to talk!!! I love you girl!!!

[@RawGuruRecords]

Thanks for all the great info. Is there a special TV you need to make your guest appear in your podcast like that so clearly? Asking from the podcast set up perspective

[@brianclark641]

Is it possible to get a relatively simple answer and a complex answer? I didn’t understand anything in the second half of this interview

[@RobertNaik]

Layne is a modest guy. Great interview.

[@KoltonLukes]

I cannot find the study by Woolf that was referenced to regard lean body mass and longevity in the ages 65 and over. Could you cite this please?

[@felipe5195]

Love the mentioning of ADHD

[@indy1440]

100%

[@alextorahville]

Do they discuss their weekly routines at some point? If so at what time? Thanks to anyone that helps

[@S98Olsen]

Awesome!

[@WillPeterson]

Can you publish diagrams of the analogies between amino acid recycling and fatty acid recycling you talk about around 1:47:00?

[@bp51082]

Layne is quite responsive to comments on Instagram. Maybe try him there

[@jrlatorre2]

"i killed my clone" a year ago and have never looked back since. I love this episode! Part 2 up next...

[@shaleel]

Peter, Layne, What about a fast of all but protein? I've done 36 hours fasts no food, but I've also done them with a couple corepower protein shakes, 84g of protein spread across a day, 460 calories total. I suspect that might have issues for Peter's goals at the cellular level, but for me it feels like an easy way to get a big caloric deficit quickly and without as much effort as a full fast.

[@JrMellem]

I was so looking forward to getting info from these two of my favorites. However, it seemed that it was geared toward other scientists and I could not understand the medicalese. I would like to hear their thoughts in layman’s terms; not words you need to learn another language utilize.

[@ryankwiatek339]

Agreed, I was lost so quickly. You almost need a PowerPoint presentation to with it all

[@zxsw85]

Gtfo then the

[@moontrack4625]

Stepping back ( which is so hard to do for all of us) it’s so easy to see the deepest levels of egocentricity with certain achievements in body building. The main reason I admire Dr Attia is that health and longevity are mainstays. If someone is continually harming themselves and recovering because they are saving old ladies, animals, building homes, planting newer, better crops..... it all makes sense! None of what this kind, smart man has described. I lift too, makes ME feel good- but I realize the feels are ultimately selfish.

[@chuckychuckles]

dude! I was 16% body fat when I was 23 and that's the latest I've ever been in my life!

[@turdferguson2961]

YES

[@heidisunshine2003]

Science for that A _ _ 😎🧪🌎 Love listening to Layne Norton discovered him on Rogan podcast.

[@marshallhobbs46]

This was a clinic!

[@wilhelmbeermann2424]

Habits are making the change....😊

[@yaronbeen3033]

Great stuff. Layne has a lot of knowledge and is a very sharp thinker. Thank you Peter

[@Justin-pu5pb]

Excellent conversation. Some of the material over my head but thats okay. Question, does supplementing with creatine damage the kidneys?