1884 Kropatschek: Groundwork for the Lebel

[@blueband8114]

Oh wow, never really seen a Kropatschek up close before, the build quality on that rifle is beautiful.

[@gregoryfilin8040]

I've never seen one in such amazing condition. The ones I've held have been beat to death.

[@matthayward7889]

Loving these French rifles, you know Ian’s book is going to be brilliant!

[@korisosuke2154]

Most were sent to Russia *most did not survive Russia*

[@willh8950]

Kori Sosuke That’s funny, a lot of Russians didn’t survive Russia 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@DefconMaster]

@@willh8950 Neither did the French or the Germans

[@willh8950]

@@DefconMaster accurate! What lesson do we learn from this? Never. Go. To. Russia.

[@tarrydmunster1916]

In the rest of the world, guns kill people. In Soviet Russia, people kill guns.

[@firepower7017]

@@willh8950 Or Vietnam

[@Chyrosran22]

Holy crap, it looks like the condition on this is immaculate Oo .

[@EdgarInventor]

Kropatschek. A name that sounds like a Bolt Action cycling. Someone had to say it! LOL

[@Slyd_Fox]

Now it's stuck in my head. Kropatschek. BLAM! Kropatschek. BLAM!

[@ryc3rz]

Sounds like a Czech surname...probably Kropaćek in original.

[@MartaRzehorz]

@@ryc3rz Kropáček, diminutive of "kropáč" meaning "holy water sprinkler" (both the weapon and the ceremonial tool)

[@realmacgrey6421]

@@MartaRzehorz Kropáč is also a mediveal weapon known in the west as the Gutenmorgen.

[@genghiskhan6809]

Here, take this 👑.

[@Italian_Spiderman]

In my years of watching your videos I’ve really come to love French rifles that I never gave any thought to before. The passion is infectious!!

[@randywatson8347]

The engineering and machining of the bolt system looks so beautifull. Gorgeous condition.

[@jayfelsberg1931]

According to my venerable 11th edition of Small Arms of the World, the Turks obtained about 30,000 Winchesters and used them with awful effct at Plevna. First they fired their single shot weapons and when the Russians made their rush at the Turkish lines, the Turks picked up their Winchesters and hoed away. The results were pretty bad, as the Russians assumed they had a clear run - in formation p- at the Turks. Bummer.

[@johnfisk811]

The Winchesters were Turkish cavalry weapons. Re evaluation of primary sources is making some wonder if the events were that the Turkish infantry engaged the Russians at maximum range right down to the final assault whilst the dismounted Turkish cavalry had to wait until the Russians were within the close range of their Winchesters. Whether by accident or design the story of Plevna is the trigger for magazine rifles to be generally adopted. The story being that each Turkish soldier at Plevna had a both a Peabody Martini and a Winchester. Being in a well supplied dug in defended position the Turks had no issues over ammunition supply.

[@jayfelsberg1931]

@@johnfisk811 TYTY for the information

[@kenibnanak5554]

Smith's, "Small Arms of the World" (if you can find a copy) has a pretty good description of the battle.

[@kevinoliver3083]

The Ottoman troops did not change weapons mid-fight. A percentage of men in some infantry regiments had Winchesters while the majority had Peabody-Martinis. At Plevna they had the fire discipline to only use their Winchesters at short range.

[@kevinoliver3083]

​@@johnfisk811The majority of Winchesters bought by the Ottomans were full-length military rifles. They were used by light infantry units.

[@bonelessdoritoslocostaco5984]

These old french guns are pretty cool, but let's see Ian shoot every french rifle from the Chassepot to the FAMAS G2

[@skeeter3969]

Ill pay to see that

[@jmjedi923]

So the French adopted like 4 guns in the span of like 30 years?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

This is not uncommon during this period. The US had the Spencer, Trapdoor, Krag, and Lee Navy in the span of 30 years.

[@thrifikionor7603]

Germany as well. Mauser 71, Mauser 71-84, G88, G98

[@cardiffpicker1]

Congratulations , the number of likes for your comment have surpassed the number of them in it.

[@lavrentivs9891]

Not that many compared to aircraft development during WW1 or tank development during WW2^^

[@terryreynolds9397]

Technology was changing rapidly. Breech-loaders replaced muzzle-loaders, then were quickly obsolete because of the metallic cartridge. Then, it was clear repeating arms were making single-shots obsolete. Briefly there was going to be a move to small-bore higher velocity with finer black powder, but this step was interrupted by the advent of smokeless powder (also with smaller bore). Chassepot (breech-loading) to Gras (metallic cartridge) to Kropatschek (repeater) to Lebel and Berthier (Small bore, Smokeless Powder). Today, technology is developing even more rapidly, but the advances aren't making existing weapons obsolete. The changes aren't so fundamental.

[@Omnihil777]

To speak with another Kevin-Hoganism: Condition, condition, condition! What a beautiful rifle it is!

[@tomaszbartkow3552]

Is impressive how this channel grew. More people are watching. Better quality of videos. Step by step its going in right direction. I recommend Forgotten Weapons in past to my friends and I will recommend time and time again. Well done Ian. Right balance of facts, history, and technical info 👍

[@utubesuxbigdonkeybal]

Yet another great video, Ian. You briefly mentioned Interarms and Samuel Cummings. The man and company are fascinating, and I think would be a great topic for a video. Cheers!

[@morelenmir]

Just flicking through the Kickstarter pages, it really does look like a class product--very much how Dorling Kindersley used to be in the 1990's. Lots of high quality illustrations printed on top quality paper. Definitely something to order if you can afford it.

[@vigunfighter]

for a moment I thought you were going to say: "war were declared"... :)

[@con6lex]

Peter Charles I think he did on one video.

[@Bluesnipible]

Congratulations on getting $300k+ in preorders on your new book. Must be a great feeling for you.

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian .

[@ambravirlebreton]

I love your serie about french weapons!! keep on going

[@OneEyePI]

That thing is in gorgeous condition

[@user-ns3vs3bp3e]

So gun Jesus has written his first bible...

[@chrisyoung3808]

the machining is beautiful

[@kenny344]

Hey congrats on finishing the book!

[@Pcm979]

I remember from your earlier Lebel video that the Lebel bolt had to be cycled quite harshly to actuate the lifter. The Gras' lifter seems much easier to work. Is there a reason for that?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

No, they are about the same.

[@Pcm979]

@@ForgottenWeapons I see, thanks. I guess my mind was playing tricks on me.

[@irodwen]

i would love to see a series or a video about the development, experiments, and process of the invention of smokeless powder. Whether anyone else was trying the same, how the french tried to keep it secret, and how it was exposed.

[@luisantolafrancis519]

ok thats a gorgeous example of the kropatscheck looks brand new!!! just a litlle rust shade in the buttplate.

[@TaZ101SAGA]

That rifle is in exception condition, damn.

[@combobreaker0201]

This man is the Bob Ross of guns.

[@havareriksen1004]

The lessons of the effect of rapid fire with Winchester lever action guns at Plevna mirrors that of Custer's last stand, at the Battle of Little Big Horn. Though at both battles other weapons also contributed much, the barrage of rapid fire at the crucial moment proved to be decisive. The Battle of Little Big Horn preceded Plevna by 1 year and should have warned european armies of the dangers of the rapid fire barrage from repeating firearms, but I guess it didn't get much attention in Europe at the time.

[@waynedaley7048]

What a beauty rifle

[@randomotaku4037]

That is in fantastic condition for its age.

[@davidwallace5738]

Great video. Thank you sir.

[@mordecaieagle4240]

I promise that as soon get my next paycheck i'll order your book (if i have something left after paying my bills).

[@sionsoschwalts2762]

1884 Krapotschek is very similar to the 1886 Krapotschek but has some odd differences and similarities with the Gras Rifle.

[@PKPK-rr3rs]

You should make a German military rifles book, it would be very interesting as well.

[@WhattAreYouSaying]

Very nice! I have a 1886 Kropatschek. My rifle has a really low serial number, looks like it is one off the first hundreds that was produced. It also seems to have been used A LOT. The bluing is gone all over the rifle, it basically looks like silver. The stock is also really beaten up, with deep scratches and marks everywhere. But despite all this it has a really smooth action. I really wonder what stories my rifle would tell if it could talk.

[@nickz5849]

What is considered a low serial number? Like what range in the numbers? 1000s?

[@WhattAreYouSaying]

@@nickz5849 Around 49,000 rifles were made in total, counting all M1886-variants. The serial number on mine is just above 400, the letter "A" is before the serial number. So with a 400 serial number and the letter "A", it is an early rifle from the first 400's. The rifles were produced with a 3 digit serial number, with 1 and later 2 identical letters. They were produced in letter blocks. 2 identical letters indicates the second production run. They produced 999 rifles for each letter because of the 3 digit serial numbers. When all the rifles from A to Z were produced, they started with 2 letters before the serial number. "AA 1" being the first rifle of the 2 letter production run and "ZZ 999" being the last rifle of the 2 letter production run. The letters was in alphabetical order, from A to Z. For example: "A 1" would be the first rifle ever produced, "ZZ 999" would be the last rifle. Only 2 alphabetical blocks of rifles were produced, the production stopped just a few letters before they actually reached "ZZ 999". So the serial numbers should look like this, from first rifle to last rifle: First production run: "A 1" = first rifle. "Z 999" = last rifle. And: Second production run: "AA 1 = first rifle. "ZZ 999" = last rifle.

[@Retarior]

Yes, Mr. Kropáček was a great constructer. That is the correct writting of the name... Kropáček. He is, was, Czech.

[@Tallmios]

I thought it didn't sound to be of Austrian origin.

[@totallynotacommie4767]

You could say he was Kropaczech

[@Retarior]

@@totallynotacommie4767 Indeed :-D a genuine Czechnology Steam-punk era maker.

[@brunoseno7827]

please make a video about the Brazilian navy kropatscheck. It's hard to find sources about this on the internet but I think you have the right contacts.

[@AardigGeflipt]

god dammit i love this channel

[@AdurianJ]

This rifle being issued to second line troops is sort of how the Swedish 6,5mm Mauser was used in Finnish service.

[@Kaboomf]

And how the Gewehr 71 was used by rear-echelon German troops in WWI. According to my great grandfather's diary he was issued a Gew 71 at some point in 1916 or 1917. Basically all nations have done something similar at one point or another; there's stories of Remington Rolling Blocks being handed out in 1940.

[@AdurianJ]

@@Kaboomf In the Union Crisis in 1905 between Sweden and Norway the predecessor of the "Home Guard" still had Remington Roller blocks ! And as late as 1940 in Sweden cooks where still armed with sabers.

[@asphaltmemories4597]

Gorgeous example, will we see a Portuguese one in the future as well?

[@igorsamoylenko7719]

Ian: (pronouncing french rifles) KZbin subtitles: *Core* *pot* *check* *Crow* *pot* *check* *Core* *potchuck* *Krappa* *check* *Shaw* *spo*

[@terryreynolds9397]

We are doubly blessed! An 1884, too? And it cleared up my questions about the cut-off lever, too! Do you also have an 1885?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Alas, I have not yet found an 1885.

[@Zajuts149]

One can understand the magazine cut-off mechanism from a logistical point of view, especially with black-powder rifles, were ammunition was more expensive. It still makes some sense with a tube-magazine rifle, as the reload of the magazine would still be done 1 round at a time. You need a box-magazine that can be fed with stripper clips to make the magazine cut-off entirely obsolete.

[@schwaulen]

I think the cut-off has more to do with the doctrine of the time. I think even the earlier Enfields had a cut-off, despite the stripper-fed box magazine.

[@jcorbett9620]

@@schwaulen Correct. The SMLE didn't do away with the magazine cut-off until the middle of WWI, around 20-30 years after the first box magazine Metfords and Enfields.

[@Zajuts149]

That was sort of my point. The original rationale was both to conserve ammunition and to have a ready reserve for when things got hectic. With stripper clips, you reload your magazine so fast that it doesn't matter if do aimed shots from the magazine or reload one cartridge at the time at long range. With smokeless powder being cheaper, it is easier to bring and expend more, especially since the cartridges get better and won't "spoil".

[@LankyAssMofka]

@@schwaulen Did US guns of the time have cut off as well? I'd think that feature would have been handy in the west against the native americans. Take potshots when at long range and when they charge in or surround you, then open up the magazine.

[@schwaulen]

@@LankyAssMofka I know the Winchester Hotchkiss did. I think the Springfield 1903 still had one as well and I'm sure there were others.

[@yelar9000]

Yay new video

[@ScottKenny1978]

Ian, you *tease!* You're going to show us that beautiful rifle (that looks like it came off the assembly line last week, not 140 years ago!), and not shoot it?!?

[@billsummy2412]

AWESOME !

[@mazkact]

I don't trust these newfangled repeaters just gimme a Rolling Block.

[@mordecaieagle4240]

I don't trust those newfangled cartridge guns, just gimme a 1853 Enfield.

[@mazkact]

Not even a Snider converted 1853? I have one( as well as a Rolling Block) The Snider is minute of enemy column.

[@williammagoffin9324]

I don't trust those newfangled shooty things, just gimme a pike.

[@mazkact]

I am really partial to David slings

[@gregoryfilin8040]

I don't trust this fire thing. Just lemme hunt in the dark with a rock. I don't need those darned spears.

[@singleshot2218]

Ian..would you do one on the MAS semi auto?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Actually, I will cover the whole MAS semiauto series in the next two weeks. The MAS -44, 49, 49/56, MSE, and NATO models.

[@singleshot2218]

@@ForgottenWeapons I have a 49/56, very accurate, and fun to shoot!

[@122ALVARO11]

Is it me or the elevator on the kropatscheck looks smoother than the one on the lebel? It doesn t seem to need that yank that the lebel usually needs to feed

[@Isaihernandez777]

I need one 😍😍😍

[@beast0339]

I'd love something like this for the US or Germany, I'm familiar with the UK's military history since there's a reserve camp right next door but I'm less familiar with the American and German Military history. Perhaps a future Idea

[@BigHugePotatoes]

Something about the look of the action makes me feel funny.

[@tekumeku2244]

I just got the Bayonet for one of these. Now i just need the gun itself

[@dobypilgrim6160]

What a gorgeous rifle! Question for anyone who knows: Why did the French in particular continue to refuse to ad a manual safety on their bolt action service rifles?

[@salvadorsempere1701]

Because they don´t believe that a manual safety its safe enought. So the doctrine in the french Army was to carry your weapon with an empty chamber. Really you don´t save a lot of time from having to remove the manual safety to having to use the action.

[@OneShotNick92]

Kropatschek ooohh

[@cankatsoyugur4320]

Could you take a look at the Turkish Killigil Pistol?

[@lorenzogiuliani9144]

Una curiosità: tra uno steyr-manlicher 1888 e un kropatschek quale è meglio?

[@munkbok]

the 1888 by far

[@victorlacas6649]

I don't know if you'll read this post Ian but I'm wondering if there will be a french translation of your book.

[@extragoogleaccount6061]

He has a video on that topic (haven't seen it myself so I don't know if he was announcing it or proposing it)

[@xriz00]

I'd like to see how you load this kind of gun with the tube mag.

[@WeDontTalkAboutJosh]

you open the bolt, push the lifter down and push individual rounds into the tube like you're loading a winchester 1887 shotgun.

[@tz8785]

Side note about the concern on the soldiers shooting off their ammunition too quickly - this apparently was a bit of a problem during the Second Schleswig War.

[@ChodaStanks]

Im looking for the 1885 ones that look like Lebels, even more rare

[@mart_en]

So within 20 years the French army changed their main rifle, which each time was mass produced in millions, four times ?

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Quel beau fusil et tres bien fait WOW Merci mon ami ...Until the next time...!

[@SpacePatrollerLaser]

Unfortunately, I have lost the eyesight needed to read print. Did Othias order a copy yet?

[@wewlad8697]

How do you type/read KZbin comments?

[@jayfelsberg1931]

Did the rifle use a version of the French soldier/s beloved Rosalie (s), the very narrow, long bladed like that used on more modern French rifles?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

No, it used the Gras bayonet. "Rosalie" was the Lebel bayonet, and wasn't designed until 1886.

[@matthewspencer5086]

When I first heard about the Headstamp Publishing project, I commented that one of the rules of self-publishing was to NEVER miss a chance to publicise the book. I am glad to say that Ian has taken this advice to heart!

[@johnstacy7902]

Cleaning rod or stuck cartrige removal rod

[@MaHaL1337]

Cleaning. That little slot in the front is so you can stick a cleaning patch through it before wrapping it around the head, it's thr same style of head on the cleaning rod for my C7, just not collapsible.

[@johnstacy7902]

@@MaHaL1337 I was being a bit sarcastic. those old BP cartridges would jam quite often or extractors would break. Is handy to have rod in case you have to punch somthing out

[@ChodaStanks]

I want a 1884 or 1885, hard to find

[@ThePlaceCannel]

Every time Ian mentions his book, I die a little inside, because I don't have enough money to afford one at the moment. Who wants to buy a book for me?

[@LankyAssMofka]

Yeah it sucks, I can afford the book even though it's US dollars and I'm Canadian, but the 50 USD shipping is what's stopping me, it's ridiculous. I'll just keep supporting through Patreon. :(

[@ThePlaceCannel]

@@LankyAssMofka Great idea! Lol

[@Think_about_this_world]

Hello! Thanks for a very interesting video! Every day I start by watching your channel. but I do not speak good English, and I ask you to add subtitles. to translate into Russian.

[@ryker8338]

That rifle almost looks like a last decade or later manufacture if it wasn't for the dates and the dents on the stock.

[@pedrotheswift5937]

What pushes the next round onto the loading tray?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

The magazine tube spring.

[@DanielTitley]

Were they still using black-powder ammo when they were sent to Russian and Spain?

[@MarvinCZ]

They were not modified to fire any other cartridge and they wouldn't be strong enough for smokeless powder with just the bolt handle as the only locking lug.

[@DanielTitley]

@@MarvinCZ Maybe they had reduced-power smokeless ammo, similar to modern cowboy action ammo.

[@Lrr_Of_Omikron]

Does anyone make a modern Famas that's cheaper than the batch Century Arms had in the 80s that go for $30,000?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

No.

[@Zorglub1966]

until 3D metal printed parts is reliable and affordable, it will never happen.

[@giovannifontana1433]

In Europe u can by one in good condition for 1/10 of the price, but it will come in 222rem.

[@hilariousmax6732]

4:37 did you say 1900 meters? They were shooting out to a mile+ accurately in the late 1800s?

[@poppasquat8483]

Used for volley fire

[@magoid]

Is what they call volley fire. You get a bunch of guys aiming at a target in the distance, everyone shots, maybe someone hits something. I believe is more a suppressing fire than anything, like the most improvised form of artillery.

[@jcorbett9620]

As others have mentioned, it was not for accurate fire, but creating a "beaten area". Don't forget at this period, armies were still using the close formations that had been used in the Napoleonic (and earlier) wars, so there would be a large number of troops marching in a tightly packed formation. If all your troops aim at the formation using the 1900m sights, they will be unable to hit any specific individual, but by aiming very high, they create a rain of bullets through which the column has to march. There might be no casualties, there might be a few, but the effect is more psychological, than militarily effective. Try to imagine the effect of having to march through this rain, with maybe the odd man being hit, knowing there is no way you can avoid being hit if the bullet arc and your position co-incide.

[@salvadorsempere1701]

Yes. Your target its a closed order 800-mansize target. Acurate enought.

[@alanvonify]

You need a cop to check that Kropatschek. Or how about check yourself before you Kropatschek yourself. Either one, I’m happy.

[@BeefaloBart]

I see that name and keep thinking it says Kraptastic...

[@ollikrogars688]

Where they not made in Portugal to?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Portugal bought theirs from Steyr.

[@randyrick8019]

I have an old web page with pictures of the various models of the Portuguese Kropatschek made by Steyr at randyrick.us/AustrianFirearms/rmkrop.htm

[@ECESW]

Kropatschek sounds a bit of a Polish name. Interesting.

[@fastmongrel]

Southern Poland was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire so its possible Kropatschek came from Poland.

[@jeanjabonite4578]

Philippine sub machine gun pls floro mk9

[@kaneto88]

It's Pleven, not Plevna.

[@trenvan5546]

I wonder why the french did undervalue the quality of their troops so consistently..

[@tonylittle7782]

Can you do a video on mas 36 serial numbers and one on French bayonets? Love your channel. Keep up the masterful work

[@NRJenzenJones]

You'll want to check out Ian's book!

[@DashRendar308]

Why does shipping a book to Germany cost 60,-$?

[@MrSven3000]

erm ... ok. i always thought the kropatschek was austro-hungarian ?

[@rustyteague8574]

my cocking piece only has one notch

[@breakneckmilk9324]

You ever just already buy the book to flex on the fake forgotten weapons fans

[@birddog9708]

Henry Case that makes no sense

[@birddog9708]

Chemus Van Der Geek what's he going to do with a book , colour it in . 😂 Being able to read and write is quite handy when it comes to reading books

[@rintinfin4440]

@@birddog9708 is there something I'm missing from you comment? I ask, because I noticed you wrote, "What's he going to do with a book...😂😂😂😂" and figured that I must be missing some type of context.

[@Bluesnipible]

@@rintinfin4440 He was joking that the original comment didn't make grammatical sense, so he would have trouble reading the book.

[@birddog9708]

RinTin Fin if you load a magazine with Crayola wax crayons: the red ones go the fastest😂

[@robertcolbourne386]

Let's see hmmmm 1 yr after Crazy Horse showed the same thing at the Little Big Horn , in the words of a famous civil war General, "ohhhhh shit"

[@LionofCaliban]

Dare I ask, we're still looking at blunt nosed ammunition here?

[@Hybris51129]

Correct Spitzer bullets weren't really use by most militaries until shortly before or early in WWI with some like Italy if I remember correctly stayed with the bottle nose projectiles until after WWI.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yes, this was flat-nosed, unjacketed lead 11mm ammo.

[@LionofCaliban]

@@ForgottenWeapons Thanks for confirming. I suspected as much.

[@dhananjaychafale6545]

French really Very quick replacing rifle.

[@shadowwarrior2974]

I thought mle meant magazine Lee Enfield? Don't get me wrong... Love you Ian. Just wanted to know what that stood for.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

In a British context it does; in this case it is an abbreviation of "Modele".

[@jkleopard4617]

Sean Gibson Thats for English in French it means model

[@jakefromabove_og]

idk for sure, but I think that in a french context Mle means Modèle, or Model

[@jkleopard4617]

Oops

[@sumvs5992]

Because I've only heard the name from Americans, and Americans (for some reason) pronounce most A's as an O sound, I tried searching up some polish looking names like: "cropocek" and "kropocek". Why do americans punish my british ears?

[@svacar]

Kropatschek thats a czech name tho modified for non czechs

[@niklas8552]

Sup my Friend? :D

[@floflo8018]

"if the french army is going to adopt a rifle they're not going to buy it from some foreign manufacturer[...]it's going to be made in one of the french arsenal's probably several of the french arsenal's" OOF

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Well, until they close all their arsenals, anyway.

[@user-nh6mm2gg8i]

Its not french

[@AsbestosMuffins]

I can't imagine being given a black powder rifle when your enemies have sub machineguns and flamethrowers coming at you

[@florian2199]

At least you have something to shoot at them

[@birddog9708]

The Afghan managed ok against the Russians with them

[@andyrihn1]

Beats a sharp stick

[@andyrihn1]

DOUG HEINS fun fact: during WW2, the British military was putting every remotely viable gun into service that they could that when it came to arming the Homeguard, a volunteer force for the possibility of a German invasion, entire units were issued spears. The problem with bows is that they’re generally more of an expert weapon

[@andyrihn1]

DOUG HEINS those French losses were precisely because of the prowess of English longbow-men (even drawing a proper English longbow requires training). But as the 100 years war waged on the skilled longbow men died the French crossbow rose to prominence because it was so much quicker to train peasants to use

[@814790]

Good God that metal...... whitest white I've ever seen.

[@rustyteague8574]

haha , jk, thanks for the video learnin's

[@atracin]

Damn I'm early