1929 Simson Prototype 9mm

/ forgottenweapons
In the late 1920s, German Ordnance hinted at an interest in replacing the P.08 Luger pistols with a less expensive handgun design. This prompted a number of submissions from hopeful companies, including this design from the Simson company of Suhl. It is chambered for the 9x19 Parabellum cartridge (as requested by Ordnance) but is a simple blowback action.
It features a very modern and slick takedown system, but would be dropped from consideration along with other potential designs when the military opted to focus on carbines and submachine guns instead of spending money on a replacement handgun.

[@ExUSSailor]

I know aesthetics aren't an important feature, but, that is a really beautiful, elegant looking pistol.

[@bradenanderson6989]

Anon Nymous I think aesthetics are important, but I guess that’s less true for a gov. contact project

[@augustovasconcellos7173]

@@bradenanderson6989 Probably even then it'd still be important You'd be surprised at how much of a morale and P.R. boost is to put some effort into aesthetics

[@rubiconnn]

@@bradenanderson6989 Having good aesthetics is fine as long as it doesn't impede on functionality at all. There's nothing worse than a gun that is all plasticy and hollow and cheap because the makers wanted the lines to be smooth.

[@shanemccrorey2620]

Huh.....who woulda hought? I saw this before watching video... This really IS the resulting progeny of a Luger and a Colt 1911 !! Edit. And its grand kids became Glocks, Sigs, and H&KS??

[@zacharyscott1264]

Aesthetics matter, ask any hi-point 🤣

[@Michael_Smith-Red_No.5]

There is no Luger, only Suhl. I was impressed how it was built to be a blowback 9mm, yet looks so much nicer than a HiPoint. Too bad that the magazine doesn't work, because this is a pistol that deserves to be used.

[@slowpokebr549]

+Michael Smith Are you the key?

[@Michael_Smith-Red_No.5]

slowpokebr549 Not the key master, no.

[@millwaterpublishing1387]

+Michael Smith I was going to say Hi-Point meets old German engineering.

[@Michael_Smith-Red_No.5]

I'd rather throw one of these, because they'd be more accurate than a Hi-Point attempting to not misfire.

[@RCZM64]

+Michael Smith If you want a blowback 9mm (parabellum, short, or "Largo"), get yourself an old Astra 400 in good condition. The same pistol can fire most 9mm calibers without modifying anything (but some are not recommended).

[@t.c.mcqueen2350]

The first thing I thought when I saw the pistol was 1911 meets luger. Awesome pistol.

[@teddyfartypants]

I thought HiPoint meets Luger

[@joshuahmitchell873]

I thought Glock plus Luger

[@lanceluthor6660]

So German. Simplified action to make it cheaper but a ton of beautiful machining ,logos etc. That must have irked Ian so much finding out about the mag after the fact. There must not be any English info available.

[@BatCaveOz]

I know this is 4 years later (as I re-watch old FW episodes)... But this is a striker-fired, blow back... other than the grip angle it would appear to have no significant similarity to either a 1911 or a Luger. I don't see the connection.

[@ikwer111]

Ian: The length of the firing pin serves a deliberate purpose. Together with the extractor it functions as an ejector for the spent case. Compare with FN m10/22 pistols and others.

[@High_Caliber]

Very good looking pistol. Nice lines, looks comfortable to shoot.

[@V3RTIGO222]

Love the disassembly mechanism, looks more quick and streamlined than even most modern pistols.

[@Mike_Rogge]

"9mm Parabellum usually requires a locked-breach operating system" -laughs and cries at the same time in hi-point

[@Ratzfourtyfour]

I'm from Germany, living not far away from Suhl, but I've never heard of this gun. This channel is gold. BTW 'sicher' was pronounced fairly good ;)

[@BlueskKulls]

+Ratzfourtyfour he sounded a little surprised "sicher?" XD

[@QuantumCat76]

That's a beautiful gun.

[@Resurrection06]

+Jaimy van der Horst I agree, wish it entered service so there would be more of them around

[@silent_bob_]

I love the way the gun looks. The operating mechanism isn't anything special, but damn it looks cool.

[@teufeldritch]

Looks like a Glock & a Luger got drunk one night & nine months later this pistol was born.

[@rickautry2759]

Wow. Beautiful piece. Even if a blowback pistol in 9 Para isn't the most practical of designs, the thought and engineering that went into it shows.

[@ryanc9527]

Heck disassembly was easier than a Glock, you could do that one handed. Lol. Crafty Germans.

[@solidspooks8689]

+RyanC But isn't it a little too slick? I can imagine the shooter accidently disassembling the gun!

[@christophergolias3610]

+Solid Spooks thank you!!! first thing that came to mind!

[@GrimmZer0]

Sicher might more directly translate to "secure", but "safe" is an effective translation in context. Great video, as always, Ian!

[@BrainSeepsOut]

+Grimm_0 "secure" is the right word, but it essentially means "on safe".

[@GrimmZer0]

Thanks for the confirmation. My German is a bit rusty. :)

[@Tunkkis]

​@@BrainSeepsOut Interesting, the Finnish word varmistettu also translates to "secured" (alternatively "confirmed"). The safety selector, varmistin, therefore becomes "the securer". I wonder if there's any relation, since much of the early post-independence officers of Finland were trained in Germany, and brought with them some jargon and protocols.

[@JessHull]

what an interesting looking pistol, really pleasant looking lines on it.

[@pipsiproductions3758]

I am owner of a Simson Moped but I had no idea that they ever build any guns. Cool :D Regards from Germany

[@HellYeahCorp]

Almost every German company from before WW2 had some part in the war effort.

[@kothaelser3282]

They built their guns/weapons/bikes/mopeds in Suhl,Thuringia, the former center of weapon production in Germany. I would highly recommend visiting the Waffenmuseum in Suhl( www.waffenmuseumsuhl.de/) and the Zweiradmuseum in Meiningen (www.biker-treff.de/treff/Meininger+Zweirad+Museum.html) to you.

[@d.f.9140]

I never heard about simson made guns earlier. And nobody I asked knows about this. Sidenote: Im from Sachsen and we're devouring those Mopeds like chocolate. Schwalben, Stare, S 51 in every edition, doesn't matter, they are so highly wanted, u can't park them without a hood and many locks to fix them on the ground, so nobody can carry them away. I for myself reaaly want a S 51 Enduro ( leeeeeeechz).

[@e.m.grimoire9778]

@@d.f.9140 I'm a bit surprised about that. The Jagdwaffenwerk Suhl was pretty well-known even if the scope of it's production might not have been.

[@d.f.9140]

To be honest, most german manufacturers (up to this day) produce weapons. When u would come to a german kitchen, u would see thyssen /krupp fridges, freezers and boilers. The IG Farben out of ww2, don't exist anymore, but it smaller sidekick IG Metall is still in service... It was only surprising to me, as I already told, because I never heard that before aspecially that waffenschmiede suhl and simson are related so close^^

[@DudeNumberOnePlus]

1929 hi-point done right. Apart from fact that just the barrel block machining probably costs more than ol' trusty miralcle from Ohio.

[@Carolina_Luke]

I love my Hi-Point pistol. I come from the city it's named after actually. High Point, NC. Very good pistol in my opinion.

[@chemistryofquestionablequa6252]

They may be ugly and heavy, but they always work.

[@hornyducks4090]

@@chemistryofquestionablequa6252 every high point I have had has had problems. And I've owned 3

[@ozdavemcgee2079]

@@hornyducks4090 I had one that jammed. But been issued 20 or 30 probably in the 80s in the Australian Army. Aside from that 1, the rest were as per issue well used, blue wearing off, chips in wood. They just go and go. No doubt Colt 45s do to its a matter of gunsmiths armourers who have lots of experience on that model

[@christianramsey2581]

@@ozdavemcgee2079 I believe my friend you are confusing High Point pistols with the Browning Hi Power. Very different guns. High Point makes a series of polymer blowback pistols in full size calibers like 9mm and. 45 acp that sell for around $100 usd most of the time.

[@clothar23]

Well that is a unique place to put a take down lever . I can imagine sober and gloveless is the way to handle this pistol.

[@clothar23]

***** Well yeah, still doesn't change putting the take down right in front of the trigger is a bad idea. i can imagine wearing winter or work gloves and being in a rush to fire would see ya rack the damn slide right off the gun.

[@falloutlover5443]

I really like the look of the Simson. The combination of the Luger grip and the squared off slide and hidden barrel gives it a very slick, clean look.

[@criffermaclennan]

That's a good looking pistol

[@poppacross79]

As to comments about High Points and Jennings. About 1905 there was a company called Lilliput that made small blowback autos of a similar configuration. So yes it is public domain unless someone improves it and patents the extra gizmo.

[@b.griffin317]

So basically this was the Wiemar Hi-Point? lol

[@andrewfager1713]

+b. griffin thats what i was thinking lol

[@me323me]

@@JinKee Here's to hoping the YC-9 will give us toolless disassembly!

[@firefighterforlife6673]

Such a beautiful gun. Wish I was able to bit for it

[@TRIGGERED-TNT]

Slick.. luv it. Can see elements of modern models developing. The Luger looks so elegant beside blocky modern 9's.

[@UpToSpeedOnJaguar]

It's a luger with a blowback mechanism rather than a toggle lock one. It's really cool and sleek looking. It looks like it would feel amazing in the hand. I wish we had details on the trials about how successful it was.

[@normanmccollum6082]

Wow, 5 years and a day old. It's Apr 24, 2021 right now. I find that neat. Just watched the vid he released about the Simson company and the Simson Lugers.

[@gooondie]

How was this not adopted?? It’s such a simple and elegant design.

[@bobbylee2853]

Bad economy.

[@draconus15]

im kind of sad more of these wernt made

[@jmjedi923]

Honestly, this thing looks really cool. Looks like a star wars blaster. I'd buy one

[@fatshadow2062]

Slick little piece. I know the Luger is iconic in its design, but going simply on aesthetics, I actually like the look of this quite a bit more.

[@matthewlemon2832]

While the disassembly lug seems easy and convenient. I can only imagine the horror during combat if a soldier is wearing gloves or accidentally hits it in the heat of battle.

[@Vicus_of_Utrecht]

matthew lemon lol, a total "Shhhiiiiit" moment

[@Ariche2]

Still, it's like having a "press here to jam the gun" button. Maybe add some kind of spring tension to it so it's difficult to do accidentally?

[@salokin3087]

God damn did Industrial Germany make some sweet guns.

[@AttemptMade]

That is an interesting way to contain the recoil spring. Very simple and it drastically simplifies disassembly without requiring anything too crazy to be machined.

[@shishiromura]

I love it when I can hear how smooth a slide is through a video.

[@nickhighland799]

it kinda looks like a high point with a luger grip to me xD

[@thedefinitive6296]

I love the way this gun looks especially. Very cool piece of history.

[@gregsummers7350]

Ian thank you yet again for another wonderful post and your extensive research; I always learn something new. I think this pistol looks both elegant and business like. The slide shape reminds me of the H&K P7 pistol. I agree with the comment by Aravzil about making this pistol to accept Luger mags. Kind regards to all, Greg

[@Doellimann]

Simson also manufactured motorcycles for many years and made some pretty cool 50ccm ones which are very popular today!

[@americanpatriot646]

is this gun's design in the public domain?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yes.

[@ciananmortem3127]

Ask an attorney first, but generally speaking I'd say yes.

[@ludditeneaderthal]

sure, there's nothing on there less than 25 years old. that's the limit on a patent. hell, 3/4 of it was lifted already when he designed it.

[@panzermacher]

haters gunna hate, but that is a gorgeous handgun

[@ludditeneaderthal]

5th Columnist kind of resembles a colt woodsman .22, or the old high standard .22 autos. it does have some nice lines, true enough. probably a great pointer too

[@gregmiller9710]

Ian, we would all like to add most every weapon you show to our collection..

[@vaclav_fejt]

+Greg Miller Although you're happy with just your two Walker Colts, aren't you?

[@gregmiller9710]

***** in reality, i only have 2 Pietta Dance & Bros..44's and a '58 army pistol now..:(

[@fonkyman]

+Greg Miller i think he was making a joke....

[@gregmiller9710]

fonkyman yeah.. i know...

[@gregmiller9710]

i thought it interesting that i even have something close to that effect..:)

[@nowaydude3595]

Holy Shit ^^ It's....a HIGH-Point! From Germany! From 1929!

[@Pasadenaboy27]

This handgun look like the result of a one night stand between a Hi-Point 9mm and a P08 Luger.

[@stevelewis7263]

It would be nice to see this elegant pistol out on the range

[@Hadanelith1]

That is a *slick* looking pistol. Really like it! Though there should probably be a bit more holding that disassembly lever in place - I can see far too many ways that could be accidentally operated in combat.

[@craigpalmer9196]

a really slick pistol, should be in production today

[@Chaosrain112]

Seeing a hint of Sig Sauer in the design. Looks really nice for being that old.

[@LunaDevaKitty]

The slide kinda reminds me of the CZ75, and of course the pistols that inspired it.

[@RomeoWhiskey692]

That is a slick little pistol . I would have wanted to be carrying one while on my travels in the 1930’s .

[@lucianene7741]

Back in that time you could probably get like 2 submachine guns for the price of a Luger.

[@Oblithian]

That explains the luger-esque grip that I like.

[@pyrotechnicien]

What are the angled milled surfaces on the lower rear side of the slide? There seems to be corresponding angled projections in the frame around the mag well...

[@jameswoods7276]

That's a pretty neat design, simple, elegant and seems it would be quite reliable. Except maybe the firing pin but presumably that would be a mass produced easily replaced part.

[@thetriode]

A fancy, vintage hi-point.

[@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus]

Bauhaus meets armament! It would have not been a simple gun to manufacture well. But it’s a lovely looking thing.

[@diesel7weasel]

What stands out is that it seems modern Walther pistols have a near identical mechanical setup, Q-series at least, look at a Q5 disassembly.

[@TheGearhead222]

Ian, have you ever covered John Browning inventing the .32 and .380 calibers? Did you know that Simson also made a cycle car for invalids called the Duo? One of my best friends grandmother owned one while they were both living behind the Wall -John in Texas

[@kristokirov]

The world’s classiest Hi-Point! 😹👌🏻

[@jacobwrona]

the reason for the firing pin being so long and fragile looking is that the firing pin also functions as the ejector just like a High-point pistol.

[@AlanH450]

where has that been all its life? it looks almost brand new for a gun over 80 years old!

[@pm4813]

Looks like a hi- point with a better grip angle

[@Gojiro7]

This thing heavily reminds me of the "Luger" pistol from TimeSpliters 3: Future Perfect but I'm sure that similarity is just a fun coincidence that they look so similar given this is a rare prototype and internet research was still new in 2005

[@drmaudio]

Next to the sleek and refined lines of the Luger, it looks like a Hi-Point.

[@someonesomewheresomdeday]

I wish it was as modern as it looks. Very cool firearm. Thanks for another great video, Ian!

[@peterthinks]

This is why I watch Forgotten Weapons! I never knew this existed. Thank you Ian!

[@IMadeChuckNorris]

I don't see any kind of retaining rails on the frame. I see that the rails on the slider are under those two "blocks" with the slide serrations, but I don't see where they mate with the frame. Does the front extensions of the slide where the front of the guide rod sit help in guiding the slide or something?

[@sthenzel]

What are the cutouts on the underside of the slide for? In the frame there seems to be a matching piece. Is that just a very beefy disconnector/slide catch or is it meant to be some kind of system to delay blowback (at least a little)?

[@rogainegaming6924]

Damn...that is a nice looking piece. Very art deco.

[@acooper11397]

Do you think that people could accidentally press on the disassembly spring during firing because I think that would be an issue but, I have not shot this gun before so idk.

[@WhiteCavendish]

That is an awesome and remarkably modern design for a 1920's pistol. It seems like it would be very accurate too.

[@dwightnix893]

Looks like a competently put together pistol. Wonder how well it shoots.

[@andyburd7906]

What are the cutouts in the base of the slide for? they seem to match up with a piece in the frame of the gun, is it a delayed blowback?

[@lubossoltes321]

the only thing that's missing from the pistol is empty mag hold open (or it was not mentioned/demonstrated in the video).

[@LaterMeansBrick]

Darn this thing looks still modern, it aged well for a 1920's pistol. If you wouldn't tell me i would have thought of some 70-80's stuff.

[@mudbutton2]

Love that grip angle

[@kfeltenberger]

This is an amazingly elegant design.

[@mytmousemalibu]

I like it! It has an elegance to the shape and exterior finish quality!

[@Crustymarine]

I came into owning a 1926 .25 automatic Simson, WWII bring back..A cool little gun.

[@CharlesFlahertyB]

Fantastic looking pistol.

[@SuperMarshall2009]

Its sort of like a progeny of Hi-Point and a Luger :)

[@aljr357]

I really wish I could get a handgun permit so I could get this gun. It takes so much to get one in Canada but eventually I'll get around to getting one.

[@jeffwindle2417]

looks like a early 90''s hi-point.

[@AlexandruNicolin]

Looks like the grand dad of the Hi-Point C9 :)

[@johnmoorefilm]

Wonderful design

[@tacticalultimatum]

Damn, that's so 1906. It's a blowback 9mm...

[@GinSoakedBoy]

Very nice looking pistol.

[@111fishkiller]

Seems to me like someone should still be making those. I bet hundreds of thousands would sell here,in the USA.

[@lakewooded4929]

Sweet! Good looking firearm and I like the simplicity.

[@TylerHulan]

I didnt know they made a hi point that took luger mags. Interesting.

[@krowerQ]

Very pretty piece.

[@ronniegray1127]

An interesting side note is that while looking at the gun I thought "that looks a lot like my CCP". No guide rails in the slide or receiver and the post at the rear of the frame. I assume that the barrel is adequately secured to the frame so as to serve as a guide for the front of the slide and the post secures and guides the slide at the rear. Mabe some Walther Engineer thought "thats a cheap way to do the job". Beautiful gun - I just wish my CCP disassembled as easily.

[@alwaystinkering7710]

That's a nice looking pistol. Very slick breakdown and reassembly. But it looked like the rear sight was off center, am I seeing things?

[@That70sGuitarist]

My German is a little rusty (I left Europe nearly 30 years ago) but I believe *sicher* means "secure." Of course, even in English, "secure" is pretty much synonymous with "safe," so I may just be splitting hairs here.😉

[@Rafferty1968]

It looks really good, really comfy and a doddle to strip. I wonder how it shoots. It looks so sleek and modern. Someone make them..

[@SquareoftheyearFM]

Even if it is the wrong magazine the real one must have been very similar for that one to fit.

[@volvagianintendo6465]

The Simson und Suhle handgun is kinde of hits time's Hi-Point C9.

[@Gakulon]

That gun is pretty cool. I'd imagine a lot of "accidental disassemblies" though.

[@StPaul76]

Another beautifully engineered and built German inter-war period weapon. Today's weapons are built like consumer products, these old, cold steel pistols and rifles are made like Swiss watches..

[@herauthon]

this gun needs a range demo - so curious how it performs - and... this gun is ahead of times . .

[@Rafferty1968]

Thats a really cool, attractive pistol. I like it a lot. I hope it fires as well as it looks.

[@cmoneynumbaone]

Does anyone know if Ian has done any sort of in-depth discussion on heel vs button (grip) magazine releases?