1978: Is it PUNK to PROFIT? | Omnibus | Classic BBC Music | BBC Archive

"We're gonna remain poor for another two years, maybe - but we don't care." - Charlie Harper, UK Subs.
Members of The Mekons, ATV, Sham 69, The Slits, and UK Subs discuss the complex and contested relationship between punk, publicity and profitability, on Omnibus.
Originally broadcast 12 October, 1978.
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[@nobordersnoflags9905]

100% pure gold. So great to see ATV and The Slits in particular.

[@edtsvids626]

Mark Perry, such an underrated figure, true till the end to the ethos of punk: self-sufficient, independent, do it yourself. It's was all those small not-so-skilled three chord bands and independent labels who made punk something else. Massive respect to all of them.

[@dirkbogarde44]

Mark worked for the DHSS....real revolution baby!

[@jasonsmith902]

Yeah, him and Danny Baker started Sniffing Glue fanzine

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

Mark Perry seemed like a decent geezer .I do have a CD of The Image Has Cracked and the song How Much Longer is great

[@sderoski1]

100%

[@middleagedpunk8923]

'The Image Has Cracked' is quite possibly the best punk album ever. This video is a cracking find!

[@matthewharty6531]

Wish that the whole episode had been aired. I actually remember seeing this when it first came out. My introduction to ATV, what a band.

[@pressureworks]

The whole episode was or maybe still is on yt ? Remember seeing it years ago.

[@gilwood7530]

That feeling of going and buying that new single of if you were havin a good week an LP ...I think that and live shows were the greatest feelings of my youth

[@hitoshijohnson]

What strikes me most is how urbane and thoughtful these young musicians are. It might be the oldhead in me, but I feel we've lost something.

[@mjh5437]

Intelligence and Imagination amongst many.

[@BadgerBotherer1]

I.Q. has declined a lot since then.

[@BinnyBongBaron_AoE]

Yes, our culture. With London 40% English, I wonder why.

[@FrankTownsend]

This is gold dust for an old punk like me. Of course, most doors in the music business have been firmly shut for working class kids circa 2023. Fascinating to hear Charlie Harper saying that the Subs had played a gig in Brighton for £14! Oh and RIP Mr Peel.

[@baabaabaa2293]

Hows how young Charlie is here!! Yet bands sang about how old he was!!

[@VincentRE79]

@@baabaabaa2293 Even at 79 he looks better than most of them now.

[@greatestytcommentator]

You say that.. but with a cheap PC.. anyone can pretty much record and produce and publish an album.. The tricky part is getting it heard and talked about...

[@baabaabaa2293]

Y'know how much it cost in 78 to record a single (2 songs) on 4 track, then have 500/1000 copies put on vynil?

[@daz4627]

I wish today's music had this energy and attitude... those were GREAT days and I'm glad I was there to hear it ... I still love this music. BTW - a fantastic (uber-fantastic) read is "Clothes, Clothes, Clothes, Music, Music, Music, Boys, Boys, Boys" by Viv Albertine from The Slits.... a brilliant snapshot of living in the UK in the 70s and the dawn of Punk.... a brilliant autobiography.

[@metal-gods]

You aren't listening to modern rock/metal/punk then

[@ok2760]

I mean it might have something to do with the fact that you're not a teenager now

[@daz4627]

@@ok2760 No! Really??? ... wow... THAT never occurred to me ... well, that might explain a lot of things...

[@daz4627]

@@metal-gods I do actually... I work with guys who are less than half my age and that's about all they play... true, I'm not their age anymore and music means something different to me now as opposed to way back then, but I think that today's stuff just doesn't cut it... maybe because it's too slick or predictable... I think the predictability of it is the reason... it's been done already and now it's just walking the same footsteps whereas in the 70's, it was pioneering stuff ... who knows? ... anyway, thanks to YT, all my music 'heroes' (I HATE that term) play on and on and on... Peace.

[@layditms2]

@@metal-gods The lmitators Super interesting lmao !

[@briteness]

Thank you for this! I had never seen this footage of the Slits. It reminded me yet again how refreshing they were at the time, and still. They had no loyalty to the punk politix of the day; they wanted to make a record that sounded great, go on Top of the Pops, and be as successful as possible.

[@merlin5476]

And a lot of these bands went on to be very influential & quite wealthy and produced some amazing music such as the banshees damned pistols Bauhaus killing joke etc. Many had an amazing bit of assistance from the Amazing John Peel who actually helped many many bands before punk came along. Hats of to J.P. 👍

[@eduardo0796]

Mr. Peel, an absolute legend.

[@baabaabaa2293]

Absolutely! He had em on his show... even after a ball to the head! Legend!

[@katoness]

Pedo Peel.

[@neilsaunders6009]

@homie3461 And "Schoolgirl of the Year".

[@neilsaunders6009]

@trixiek942 I was born in 1960. I hated Punk as a teenager and I have hated it ever since.

[@neilsaunders6009]

@trixiek942 Good for you! I don't want to deprive you of any pleasure that you might take in Punk music; I merely report the fact that liking what you like is not obligatory.

[@peterjoslyn1]

Viv Albertine really looking rather charming here

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

Viv Albertine was gorgeous and she aged really well too .I bought the album Cut by The Slits many moons ago and by that album they had metamorsised into a reggae band .It is a shame they never made a Chris Thomas produced punk album in early 1978

[@sderoski1]

I'll say it too

[@peterjoslyn1]

@@MartinJones-lc4vk yes she is great, her books are really interesting, I saw her do a Q&A and the pink DIY spirit is still there

[@dirkbogarde44]

Thing that strikes me about this is how middle-class alternative and punk could be (apart from Perry and Jimmy Pursey). The Mekons were about as middle-brow as you could get.

[@jayveebloggs9057]

yep

[@petergivenbless900]

Punks grappling with capitalism reminds me of the "What have the Romans ever done for us" scene in 'Monty Python's The Life of Brian'.

[@dapunk5598]

Does it why ?

[@baabaabaa2293]

Most anarchists are socialists...not many socialists are anarchists tho... Most are (or were) politically aware mate. I trust none of em tday tho!✌️

[@petergivenbless900]

@@dapunk5598 just something in the "we hate them, but we need them" dynamic reminds me of it.

[@petergivenbless900]

@@baabaabaa2293 I thought anarchy was about the abolition of power structures; socialism has power structures but they are just distributed differently. If you're an anarchist, and you don't want anyone dictating how you should live, you won't get that in socialism; a better fit might be liberalism.

[@justahumanbeing.709]

Judean People Front!!

[@BagBoy81]

Charlie was 34 then. ….still going strong.

[@jonblazeinc]

Crazy he was much older than other punk bands , similarly The Stranglers were older too and caught flack for their age

[@twistedspanner]

Wow! So that's what Gooseberry Studio looked like. Thats where Jah Wobble recorded all his early stuff and all those great backing tracks for PiL's 'First Issue' album.

[@andyallom4357]

The Mekons accompanied John Peel on his Uni/College tour. Saw them in Newcastle in 1978. Peel was every punk's hero.

[@IkemNzeribe]

Music was a matter of life and death back then. It was tribal. Now, it's irrelevant.

[@dirkbogarde44]

It's irrelevant to most young people. I still love music but I'm not going to gigs or buying music Iike I used to.

[@sir.public]

I feel as a 17 year old today, a lot of this music feels like life or death to me and a lot of other people, but theres no scenes to exercise this ambition

[@Artstewsimpson]

​@@sir.public be a punk... It was very DIY ... Make a scene.

[@oxouk]

Definitely not in it for the money when there's seven members in the group.

[@derekmillar318]

John peel sadly missed ....

[@tomthomassony8607]

14 year old girls don’t miss John Peel.

[@End-Result]

He was a vile nonce

[@bronoun8884]

Nonce

[@theefishlippedone]

Wish they'd just put the full episode up

[@MichaelBennett1]

8:29 Ari Up, the girl with the football died aged 48 in 2010.

[@RUSH2112RUSH]

@Michael Bennett I always, and this really isn't a criticism, find it odd when people 'like' a comment such as yours. I'm being a touch facetious but it almost appears they are liking the fact that someone has died and of course this isn't the case, most of the time anyway.

[@MichaelBennett1]

@@RUSH2112RUSH it’s liking that the comment was made as opposed to the subject.

[@davidmullins3936]

Great footage of Here and Now setting up in the background while Mark Perry speaking, Meanwhile Gardens I think

[@paulharvey2851]

Here & Now! I couldn't put my finger on it but they looked so familiar & now it all comes back - I'm guessing the Good Missionaries were coalescing around this time, at least in Mark P's mind!

[@davidwaterhouse2552]

Great documentary I remember it being on the TV back in the day! I thought SHAM 69 did one good LP 'Tell us the Truth' and that's it! But Jimmy Pursey made some good points and I think he should get more credit than he does for being there in the beginning and helping other bands such as ;The Angelic Upstarts! The MEKONS! What happened to them ? Mark Perry and ATV? Absolute pioneers, brilliant, very underrated English pUnK BAND who epitomised the punk diy ethic! Charlie Harper and the UK SUBS ! I have seen them so many times and met Charlie thrice! He is an absolute LEGEND! The Slits? I was always going to ask 'Viv Albertine' to marry me if 'SIOUXSIE' turned me down! dx

[@diamon999]

Did Siouxsie turn you down?

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

I think That's Life was a great album too.I don't think Sham 69 ever made records as good as The Clash or The Sex Pistols.The Clash changed their style very radically from 1977 to 1980 .I think many fans of their original sound were disappointed by Sandinista .The UK Subs were another solid punk band.

[@jonblazeinc]

The first punk bands to appear on TOTP in 1977 were The Jam, The Stranglers , Sex Pistols ( studio performance) and The Adverts ....Sham 69 appeared on it in 1978

[@campbellgraham1979]

Fast forward 25 years and profit is all that matters once Mr Cowell gets his money grabbing claws into the industry

[@ok2760]

There was terrible mass-produced music being made in 1978 as well

[@campbellgraham1979]

@@ok2760 it never made prime time on Saturday nights for about two decades tho.

[@baabaabaa2293]

Fukn ABBA!..Racey..l cd go on, but just those two sugar coated bubble gum for the masses were everywhere!

[@PtolemyJones]

Love that they are being interviewed in front of a poster of ABBA.

[@Mistydazzle]

Palmolive's granddaughter is doing some fine music, now! Not punk - but, very talented - She is Tianna Esperanza & has a YT channel, of course.

[@squiresquiffy3728]

What a gem! Reminds me how much I miss my Uncle John though!

[@thomasthomasson2319]

God so many of these comments are so depressing. Proof that the original punks turned into the old farts they were once railing against

[@mrlotusmic]

They were obviously fans of ABBA with the poster behind.

[@sderoski1]

@trixiek942 Joe Strummer liked ABBA

[@thewotsit]

Of course it isn’t. Young men are expected to be either down’t pit or dossing about on the dole than to have any aspirations other than the ones assigned to them by the employment advisor who turns up at school as soon as you hit 15.

[@dirkbogarde44]

The internet has opened up numerous ways of making some ££ for young people. Some less desirable than others.

[@mymindpictures]

Jimmy Pursey taking all the credit for punk’s success there. Who knew?

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

At that point Sham 69 were probably the most important band to the average youth on the street though they were later despised by the media . Remember the only punk bands that had reached the top ten singles chart were The Sex Pistols and Sham 69.The Clash and The Buzzcocks never reached the top ten singles chart in their actual existence .So In terms of the average person Sham were important.Later The Jam would eclipse everybody of course.

[@buttershy_]

I saw UK subs live last year opening for bad religion, they're still fantastic well into their 70s!

[@derekdykeman9160]

No one in the UK Subs is in their 70s except for Charlie Harper.

[@richguest]

I remember seeing them in 1980 in Fiesta, Plymouth!

[@layditms2]

lol Omg People styled like eras we grew up in awkward lmao

[@gilwood7530]

81 or 82 was the first time I saw them in a community center

[@KarmasAbutch]

Are they still a quid down the local pub or… has it gone up since the 80’s (charlie looked old to me already back then) 😂

[@vicesquadpunk]

You don’t need money if you are 16 living at home or on the dole… the need to earn a living comes later, it’s a necessity.

[@donaldbrown4564]

5.05 I think that must be Meanwhile Gardens, Westbourne Park.

[@davebrucelee2011]

Watching Sham later this year in Bristol

[@Mick_Ts_Chick]

Is this John Peel in the hat at about the 3 minute mark? I'm from the US and not familiar with him. He sounds a little bit like John Lennon accent wise. Is he from Liverpool or somewhere close by chance?

[@cookster1001]

It is. He moved to the US in the 60s and got a DJ job on a local radio station because he said he knew The Beatles

[@davidcoleman757]

Shame this didn't have Jimmy's Mickie Most rant. The rest, though, is gold.

[@mrsuperger5429]

Bands are really just little businesses that need to sell their product to survive and grow. It was classic Thatcherism in action, though the punks would never admit it. Great programme, btw.

[@patrickhopkinson1851]

And all supported by the Enterprise Allowance Scheme. It was Thatcherism in action.

[@willieluncheonette5843]

big thanks for this. I've written about almost all these bands in the past. I fancy punk music...lol. In terms of top 50 hits, Sham was the most popular punk band at the time. Strangely enough, Borstal Breakout, one of the all time great punk songs, failed to reach the top 50.

[@willieluncheonette5843]

@trixiek942 true. In America punk was still viewed as poison by most radio stations and record companies. At least in England it was more appreciated, yes, by kids mostly...and some adults

[@securityrobot]

04:41 on the right - looks like Chris Packham.

[@adriansymcox1641]

great upload best times ever

[@Wearenotreallyhere]

1978 best year for music ever! Discuss…

[@jayrox40]

1966 and 1979.

[@gmantramp404]

Mark Perry. The man who never sold out 🤘🤘

[@blindpink]

I thought it was Ray Winstone.

[@OlafProt]

Punk should never have been a musical style or dress style. It was an attitude - “anyone can do it”. Punk didn’t mean you had to remain in squalor to remain authentic. If you made money from it, excellent.

[@baabaabaa2293]

Most of em are in op shop jumpers and diy t-shirts!! Not many cd afford Kings Road clobber!

[@sderoski1]

The word is an invention of some journalist, the system tries to divide the youth, binary thinking tried to put rock against rap or some stupid shite, but in NYC punk and rap and metal were almost the same when Run DMC and Aerosmith teamed up, and Public Enemy and Anthrax did a video together, and the Beastie Boys started as a independent punk band and switched to rap, anyone can do it, that's the spirit! Fight the powers that be!!

[@baabaabaa2293]

The system divides everyone...kids & adults...it's designed to. While we squabble, they fill their pockets & legislate for their corporate mates. FTS!✌️

[@OlafProt]

@@sderoski1 agreed

[@OlafProt]

@@sderoski1 American “punk” attitude was always so much more flexible. The fact that people like Talking Heads were cut from the same cloth as Ramones or Blondie, is lost in a plethora of journos trying to stake their claim on a few square feet of music history. I remember being SO excited by I’m the Man by Anthrax cos whilst it was white boys trying to be black achingly badly, it cross pollinated so much stuff. The Beastie Boys having label mate Kerry King on their songs. That was the last gasps of punk attitude. Now it’s all in boxes and silos and never the twain shall meet

[@marksc111]

The Slits ❤️ I still have Cut on vinyl, it's worth a mint now…

[@DanielaSchwarz-we9bv]

I love the Slits like Viv &RIP ARI❤

[@Veni_Vidi_Vortice]

Where's me giro? I need some whizz!

[@TtableWhey]

Top Quality Content!!!

[@SoulStylistJukeBox]

Mekons!

[@twitchygiraffe4636]

£150 a ticket now THAT’S disgraceful Mark Perry!!!!

[@DavidDatura]

What happened to all these guys and bands? I’d never heard of any of them until this video. Mind you, I was only 8 when this originally aired. While Kate Bush was on the charts with Wuthering Heights 😏 the music biz is just so unrecognizably different nowadays.

[@Ted_James]

The shelf life of a '70s punk band was typically very short with a few exceptions. A few went on to bigger careers in music. Most dropped out of the scene. Some continued making music while working day jobs. Some died. It's fun tracking down these old bands and their offshoots, because so many were so great. Just when I think I've heard them all, I discover another old band. Hit Wikipedia and do some exploring.

[@DavidDatura]

@@Ted_James thanks 👍

[@aotctd]

and the neighbourhood kid's father making fun of kate bush's '' woo woo '' music & looks

[@TelexToTexel]

Punk + Profit = New Wave 1977 was the year of punk, by 1978 it was more or less over

[@jdm65]

3:00 onwards - a young Grant Fleming, pre ICF and knocker days....

[@imixmuan9081]

John Peel. So young, so alive...

[@Widmerpool99]

TWO POUNDS FIFTY????

[@chrishobson6431]

Does anyone know the building of the first bands recording studio was.? Was it leeds?

[@chrishobson6431]

@Homie you utter baller..... cheers

[@kumachan9311]

REALLY GREAT ! It's OUR WORLD TOO !

[@deanstanley5799]

Uk subs best group on here

[@Whitehorse_crimefighter]

Seen them 4 times over the last 25 years and they are always so awesome. Long live Charlie Harper!!

[@kerrymould1698]

Here& now

[@hugohugo2832]

A few private school boys in there

[@roxyproton]

Long Life beer!!!!!!

[@Muirton66]

Its the strangest thing but I could never take Sham 69 or Jimmy Pursey seriously, just one of those things.

[@securityrobot]

Scam 69.

[@MrUndersolo]

The only bands that never compromised are the ones you never heard of.

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

Punk rock can be defined in several ways .There is what became the punk rock sound which is a wall of thrashing guitars with somebody usually shouting In a working class accent over the top .Then there is the spirit of punk and the freedom to perform any type of music. Neither approach is wrong and punk rock that conforms to a particular category should not be despised .The continuation of The Sex Pistols derived sound was emulated mainly by the white working class. White the more experiment post punk was more a product of the university educated middle class. So as the media is composed almost entirely of the middle class the post punk scene was promoted while the more traditional punk rock was unfairly demonized

[@Dreyno]

There was plenty of working class post punk. Punk didn’t have the scope to last for long. There was only so many barre chords to hammer away at. Bands got better and broadened their musical vocabulary. Evolve or die. The Sex Pistols made the perfect punk album and imploded. The Clash evolved into something very different. It wasn’t that post punk was promoted to the detriment of punk. The scene just moved on.

[@baabaabaa2293]

Magazine, Banshee's, Ruts, Gang of Four.. plenty were inventive & had their own sound....a lot of the kids moved on...to ska & mod...then right wing fascist kents!

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

​@@baabaabaa2293 The Skids for example were intellectual and working class but on the whole the artier side of punk tended to be middle class.Though later hardcore British punk was starved of airplay and demonized by the music press after an incident with The 4 Skins

[@MartinJones-lc4vk]

​@@Dreyno Later traditional punk was considered old fashioned and repeating itself.Reggae and hip hop remained the same but was still championed by the media.The only radio air play say Vice Squad, Discharge, Cockney Rejects and Charged GBH was going to come from John Peel a man from a public school background

[@Dreyno]

@@MartinJones-lc4vk It was getting repetitive. It was a very limited musical vocabulary. Barre chords and/or old fashioned rock and roll riffs played faster and louder. And because it was easy to play, too many crap punk bands flooded the market with shite records. Badly produced, shite lyrics, cashing in on the opportunity. Some of them are borderline unlistenable at this remove. The better bands expanded their horizons and left the scene behind.

[@pressureworks]

4:20 West Ham or Aston Villa scarf ????

[@KapitanKremmen]

Burnley

[@baabaabaa2293]

Take a wild flying fkn leap of a guess mate!

[@michaelblyth5359]

west ham

[@kamandi1362]

West Ham although Hersham was more a Chelsea area.

[@KapitanKremmen]

@@baabaabaa2293 😂😂😂

[@lucalone]

"2 pound 50" And now look at the ridiculous & outrageous prices they want now for tickets...

[@paulschofield2600]

YOUUU IRONSSS

[@lucasprobably]

to me, this seems to have very little to do with punk and a lot to do with the money barriers that keep people in or out of the industry

[@TinLeadHammer]

​​​@@AR-ym4zh Having a day job and playing free for the like-minded. This is how it worked for most Soviet musicians not affiliated with the Ministry of Culture, I guess they were all punks. But wait, their system was not capitalist.

[@baabaabaa2293]

@@AR-ym4zh luv it!!✌️

[@lazygazzzer]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................Palmolive!

[@uncleraul9144]

The Quality Of Mercy Is Not Strnen

[@madzen112]

Easy mark

[@lemsip207]

You only make money if you have albums and singles in the charts and write the songs yourself. There are bands who do some covers, but they have to pay royalties to the song writers when they do. So in return they get other bands to cover their songs.

[@Steve-zs2cl]

Oh God, punk band member said career

[@johnspencer5610]

and 'product'

[@aotctd]

thank you for the chuckles

[@jasonayres]

Just from viewing this, I gathered that they were in it for some type of profit. To be a punk rocker, someone must have paid for all that beer and cigarettes, and chewing gum.

[@lemsip207]

It was much cheaper then even taking into consideration inflation.

[@888ssss]

no more mindless empty days......

[@petercullum1374]

John Peel was great no metion of new york ramones dead boys ect or the aus bands saints radio birdman ect

[@himebaughchris4026]

Punk was Started Against Hippies and Disco. Duh! Now y'all are Raving. 😂

[@securityrobot]

A lot of Hippy roadies in this clip setting up the Punks equipment.

[@andrewm3934]

And not one f### word

[@ErnaldtheSaxon]

Speak rather posh for Punks lol

[@niallbyrne2680]

Everybody on the BBC in the 60s and 70s sounded well spoken.

[@BraveLittlePixel]

oh god not £2.50

[@aotctd]

Why are you styled like eras we grew up in ?

[@ingy2468]

Punk was damaged by the art school types that jumped on the band wagon after the Pistols with far left politics. Punk seemed a bit more real in the early 80s when it was more working class and lower class people making it, even though some bands still had a left wing political stance, many were in it for the love of the music and were just having a laugh and rebelling along the way. It became known as street-punk or the Oi! Music scene or movement even.

[@hopebgood]

Oi was just a load of old bollocks that all the right-wing skins liked. The skins in my part of SE London took the piss out of all the right wing boneheads.

[@aotctd]

i think the ideals were pretty much leftist early on not how one sees left now though

[@Bucketbrain82]

“Bit white” - say BBC 😅

[@twitchygiraffe4636]

£2.50 a gig for a very successful punk band who’ve sold upteenth singles and done quite well in the album charts in 78?! Bargain!! The minute anyone gets successful nowadays it’s straight to £30/35 quid and a mid size Apollo theatre gig! Then if they become one of the long term popular elite bands, it’s £80 upwards at the arena size venues! Then finally at a stadium for over £150 a ticket! Mark Perry’s a tight wad and he knows it!!!!

[@sexobscura]

*Viv Albertine was very lucid and intelligent. Strange that (besides the 'CATCH' bit) Ari Up was quite restrained and placid during The Slits interview*

[@teddnagurski5583]

None of their records have stood the test of time.

[@aotctd]

Stick to Dire Straits mate

[@teddnagurski5583]

​@@aotctd Stick toFrankie Goes to Hollywood, h-mo.

[@nasdkhan254]

Mekons were crap

[@Whitehorse_crimefighter]

I've never ever heard the bands name til seeing this video. Been listening to punk for 25 years and I've heard every other band in this. No one talks about them and no one listens to them. They must be terrible

[@nasdkhan254]

@@Whitehorse_crimefighter 20 years ago I made a point of collecting what I could in 1970s UK pubk rock 1976 to 79 . These were off the list

[@johnspencer5610]

Peel liked the Mekons. They made nice indie singles in the 80s, try Slightly South of the Border.

[@kookadams85]

Most underrated UK punk - Skrewdriver & the Barracudas.

[@End-Result]

No mention of Crass, Subhumans or any of the other legit UK punk bands..

[@Whitehorse_crimefighter]

Imagine asking where's all the great uk 82 bands in this 1978 documentary. Idiot

[@hopebgood]

To be fair to the lovely, friendly sounding Mr Volatile (🙄) you are a bit early for Crass and wonderful Dick and The Subhumans.

[@Porkcylinder]

The clash. Biggest charlatans in punk

[@DKJB3434]

I want that ABBA Poster in the back!!

[@ChillingCrowley]

nigel tufnel has to be based on the UKSubs singer!