1987 Cadillac Cimarron Review - The KING of J-Body Rebadges!

[@reallyrandomrides1296]

That's the nicest Cavalier-I mean Cimarron-I've ever seen! And it's got an oil pressure and volt gage so John Davis from Motorweek would approve. Interesting about the better quality steel being used!

[@averyparticularsetofskills]

It's got TILT WHEEL TOO so John would be in Hog Heaven!!

[@geraldscott4302]

Basically the Cimarron IS just a nice Cavalier.

[@quillmaurer6563]

Question is, are the oil pressure and volt gauges real, or just solenoids that pop up to a "normal" reading when a simple switch sender detects oil pressure or the alternator is producing power, effectively mechanical idiot lights?

[@DS_IndustrieZ]

I lost my virginity to a 300 lb drag queen in a cavalier type 10 hatch, I also learned to play swords, it. great

[@averyparticularsetofskills]

@@DS_IndustrieZ SAME!! wait.... Tony???

[@danielberning1240]

Fun to watch this as it's not just bashing the car. I have an amazing and clean low miles 1988 (last year made) in dark red over silver with red leather. It's so nice to drive and I get a lot of younger guys giving me thumbs up when they see it. I'm sure there are some other really nice ones out there yet, but I'd bet mine is one of the finest left in existence today.

[@VTrill225]

Let me know if you ever want to sell. ✌🏿

[@arnepianocanada]

History you MUST know. Dealers warned of quitting unless Cad gave a small import fighter; Plan 1 was Cavalier platform but factories were at peak; then too many corners were cut.

[@Mrmatteo08]

With Cimarron Cadillac tried to compete with similar size premium compact that were coming from Europe ( as BMW 3 series and Mercedes 190), but they miserably failed. Anyway this car is super interesting because it represents what in GM they thought it could be a equal rival for European competition in the early '80s.

[@willavila1551]

Thanks for the great review! These really are great little cars if you take care of them. I own two of these cars right now and they are very reliable. My '83 has 57K original miles and my 87 has 36K original miles. Both are in mint condition and the '87 is a trophy winner by the Cadillac Owners Club. Both have been dealer serviced since new. The fact that every feature operates as designed after all these years says something about their reliability! Even the power antennas still work although I unplug them every winter to keep them from breaking!

[@zythr9999]

Lol

[@VTrill225]

Let me if you ever want to sell one. ✌🏿

[@ThunderAppeal]

You must be the envy of your neighborhood, if that neighborhood is afghanistan, and you must be the life of every party if that party is the communist party.

[@ThunderAppeal]

@@VTrill225 Why am I not surprised that you would like the communists cadillac.

[@davinp]

The Cadillac version of the Chevy Cavalier. Back in the '80s, GM, Ford & Chrysler made 2-3 versions of the same car. for each of its brands

[@mrmajikjr]

Chrysler made 15 different versions of the same car. K car platform.

[@hitek9too255]

I remember when GM had like 6 to 7 different versions of the Trailblazer in the 2000s lol.

[@cashflow7786]

Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac for GM

[@XMguy]

When I was a kid my mother had the Pontiac version of this car. The interior, and design was very similar.

[@bradlemmond]

Another problem people had with these cars was Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Buick all had J-cars, but they were all priced within $1-2000 of each other (I think around $7-8k), and the Cimarron was around $12k (or something like that). It also only had a 4-cylinder at first.

[@5KpGD]

All GM plants of this time used the same thickness sheet steel. Janesville didn't get special treatment with thicker steel to build better cars than the rest of GM Production Division. Not sure where or how this rumor started, but it's pretty silly.

[@BruisersBeaters]

Fantastic. This turned out as great as I hoped it would. Thanks for the positive review!

[@williamsinger4124]

That's the one you got from "a rural vermonter ", correct?

[@BruisersBeaters]

@@williamsinger4124 yup!!

[@davidperry4013]

If I were to run an automaker in 1980 I would make a nice entry-luxury car with a 200+ hp 3.5L 24 valve DOHC NA noninterference timing belted V6 with SFI and PWM distributor, a Technics sound system complete with soft dome tweeters instead of paper cone ones, rear adjustable headrests, a choice of velvet or leather, and a radio with digital presets and auto-reverse cassette as standard. Then the 1985 redesign would add coil on plug ignition, a 20 to 30 hp increase on the V6 due to the improved ignition mapping allowed by the coil on plug ignition, 5-speed automatic transmission, 3-way catalytic converters, 1 piece composite headlights, a factory radio with 24-bit DSP audio settings and a dot matrix display, an Aux input, automatic digital climate control with a dual 7 segment LED display to show temperature, and an optional CD player.

[@HansBelphegor]

This but the fireball engine 3800

[@iluvcamaros1912]

A V6 that powerful wouldn't have existed in a mainstream car in 1980. GM didn't get the Chevy small-block V8 back over 200hp until they added Tuned Port Injection in 1985. They released a DOHC 3.4 V6 in 1991 that was 200 to 210hp.

[@JonathanMoosey]

Probably the nicest Cimmaron left in existence. Should get Doug DeMuro to review that Cimmaron.

[@scottkaluza4156]

Hi, I am 56 yo.. from 85-88 i worked at Ziebart rustproofing and detailing new vehicles. Gettimg into the Cimarron Was so luxurious feeling. And the power felt pretty snappy. The red with red interior. and the gold color were my favorite. That pewter was on a million Cavaliers.. Lol Good review..

[@marcelonator]

Zach I absolutely love the 80’s JVC back to the future handheld over the shoulder camcorder filter ❤️ great review

[@drmnishikawa]

The Cimarron was indeed a J-Body and Cadillac got way too lazy with its development. Yet I feel it's great to have someone to appreciate the upside of it, as there is more than enough berating over this car.

[@brettcannon74]

I'll never get rid of my 84 Cimarron. Bought it off the original owners in Santa Fe. Nice review man

[@richardwright9802]

I owned several of these Cimarrons that ranged from 1982 to 1988 and loved every one of them. They had additional installation that eliminated the road noise and they all handled very well. The media did everything they could to destroy the image of a small Cadillac with their bias opinions, because they never owned one. The idea that that they were hated, was nothing more than BS. I get sick of the bias from people that never owned one, if they did they wouldn't say anything derogatory about them, they were great little cars, and I loved them. bud wright owner of Cadillac LaSalle Specializes

[@Rfk1966]

Well said. It was decently executed on a small GM budget…sort of like Caddy did a few years earlier w/ the first Seville.

[@Paulio91184]

My first car was a 1988 Cimarron and I absolutely LOVED that car. Mine had the digital dash which worked when it wanted to amd was the exact same color scheme as the one in the video...I Had a lot of fun in it

[@Micg51]

I’m 25 but I love the looks of these cars. Growing up in the Midwest I’d see old cavaliers, cutlasses, and regals everywhere.

[@flipflopthong2]

As an Australian, it's amazing to see how an ordinary old Holden Camira was badge engineered as a Cadillac. From 1987, Camira had a fairly decent fuel injected 2L engine whereas the Cavalier engine looks to be carburetted with that round air filter. Even 1982 Camira's interior looked much more modern than Cimarron's. Camira was very popular in the 80s and now almost never seen on the road.

[@EGHSRC]

I think you're the first youtuber to do a professionally shot review of a cimmaron. 1 owner car guy did one but he did hid his with the intent of selling it. I'll say you're first, Congratulations!

[@ragingjaguarknight86]

Interesting review. The engine on the Cimarron reminded me of my old, early 1990s Buick Regal. The interior was similar too, except my Regal had a digital speedometer and minimal instrumentation.

[@ThunderAppeal]

You dont say. You must have been at the top of your class, the one you went to in the short yellow school bus. I guess the fact that this garbage with the 'cadillac' emblems on it is a GM product, that is entirely lost on you it would seem.

[@robertdiehl9003]

Wow.. Shocked at the different steel used between the two factories

[@sybsygstgstsgysg5330]

These still exist?

[@baronvonjo1929]

Okay but the trunk rails being practical and actually looking like a spoilers is pretty cool.

[@dave11686]

So awesome you got to review this Cimarron!

[@irishuwould5185]

I love these cars. I wouldn’t mind having a Beverly Hills cavalier

[@gearsofwar3xXx]

Fact: When they filmed the commercials advertising the Cimarrons, they used mist along the lower part of the car to obscure the styling so you couldn't immediately tell it was a Cavalier.

[@charlesmccabe5503]

I love those too…. A fully loaded cavalier…. I wish more people saw it that way.

[@joe6096]

There is a youtuber named Adam who actually worked for GM at the RenCen for 20 years and did a very good in-depth video on how and why the Cimmaron came to be the way it was. In the late 70s GM was under massive pressure to put out cars that got better fuel economy just like everyone else. As BMW was making inroads with the 3 series, Cadillac at the time was stuck with the trusty old land barges in the deVille series, Eldorado, and Fleetwoods. Massive cars, massive V8s, abysmal fuel economy. So when the pressure came down on GM to get something small and efficient to Cadillac, GM was sort of caught with their pants down. Cadillac decided the best way to get something to market fast to meet the demand for efficient small cars was to use the J-body which was already developed for Chevy and Pontiac and put Cadillac touches and luxury to it. The first year Cimmaron was not only carbureted, but used the same 4 speed MANUAL transmission as the Cavalier!! It was the first manual with a Cadillac badge since 1948! One of GM's greatest designers, Ed Welburn, actually kept a picture of the Cimmaron behind his desk in his office until he retired with the caption "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" under it. He was responsible for some of GM's best, and timeless classic designs in recent years including my 2019 Camaro before he retired.

[@cafn8ed74]

Aww, yeah. The Cavallac, baby! If you ever get the chance to drive a Cavalier Z24, you should.

[@scottkaluza4156]

They had a dash light issue. Cost a fortune to fix. My friend had one in his Z24 it would go off and on. I had a digital dash in my 1989 Olds Cutless Supreme. Had to beat on the dash to get it to come back on. Lol Got an S2000 Doubt that happen with a Honda. :)

[@mikeyveloster7615]

Good to know that Janesville Assembly used good old American made steel compared to the import steel. Wish Zack would have went into description on the Gold Emblem in the grill

[@jcrowellz2000]

Had a '88 Oldsmobile cutlass Cierra. Had the exact same motor and 3 speed automatic. Even had the truck luggage racks. Mine had the sofa like bench seats. Had fun in it until it stopped shifting into 3rd one day. Don't see these much anymore in rust belt Tennessee. Not that the interior or exterior design were bad in these j cars, it's the typical GM problems. Don't buy one of these unless you get a low mileage one for cheap.

[@HansBelphegor]

Got an 84 sedan chevy version for 200$ Has an electrical problem and is pretty rough shape but body is straight and rust free Gonna shove a 3800sc in it and have a cheap ferrari killer that is stylish and comfortable in the 80est of ways

[@USmotto]

Really great job by A A Ron keeping this legendary car alive and in great shape. I remember the Cimarron, as I was in my late 20’s when this car hit the road. We didn’t think too highly of it, to put it mildly. I’m glad I got to see this example of the car because I see it’s not as hideous as my memory over the years had made it. 😀

[@alexmercer8042]

The irony is that they could've offered this in Europe at the time as premium version of the Ascona and it would've sold like hotcakes

[@ejd1984]

One of the biggest problems was that GM rushed the car out. Cadillac actually wanted an additional 18-24 months to develop the mechanics and overall design. There was a second-gen that was in development that would have fixed most of the problems. Lookup "1986 Cadillac Cimarron facelift proposal"

[@Troy-McClure81]

Man we use to love stealing those Cadillac emblems back in the 80's ,the trunk was an easy twist and pop ,the hood was a different story..ahh the 80s when we did shady stuff and there was no digital footprint ,best decade for weird cars and awesome movies and music, you should find a Ford Ltd wagon with a 5.0 thats a fun weird fast 80s car

[@thomasdearment3214]

my in-law bought a 4cyl. they loved it, except the performance, and reliability, i told them get one with a v6 great little baby caddy they should have started with that set up to begin with, they drove that car forever

[@mromatic17]

The cadilliac cimarron is the official car of trying to confuse idiots that you’ve “made it”, but you haven’t even clocked in yet!

[@averyparticularsetofskills]

Cool vid on what is NOW a cool car 3:08 how else would the window switches be arranged in relation to the windows they control? Anyway I liked & I subbed! Looking forward to more 80s 90s reviews ✌🏾

[@sailordave1000]

I had a 1984 Buick Skyhawk coupe with 2.0L 4 cylinder and 4 speed manual transmission. For the era they weren’t bad cars for what they were. The reason why this car was a failure was the initial new sales price was about double the cost of the other J-body cars and what they offered wasn’t worth double the price. It was rushed to production with the Cadillac name. Now if Cadillac engineers had the time to work their magic they could have made multitude of changes to the structure, suspension, sound dampening, and tuning of the engine and transmission. Instead they put lipstick on the pig and called it a day.

[@jamellloydhampton7907]

Great job I love the Cadillac CIMARRON 2.8Liter V6 sport luxury small car. My foster Mother had one she had a 1986 Cadillac CIMARRON 2.8Liter V6

[@04dram04]

I love 80's notch back american luxury cars like this. I think its because they are like luxurious versions of small fuel efficient economy cars. You dont see that nowadays. I need fuel efficient cheap daily, but would love to have more luxury in it. And of course, these 80's cars have the most comfortable couch like seats, of any era car.

[@NeekFreek5150]

I wish they would've put a like "leather" top on the Cadillac version

[@johnnymason2460]

I would actually love to have a V6 Cimarron. I have no problem with the Cimarron as a whole. It was a rebadged Cavalier but it is still worthy of my respect. The V8 Lincoln Versailles also has my respect.

[@thepatchface7236]

I'm a Cavalier fan so this is just an Elite Cavalier and I love it.

[@04dram04]

Id love to drive one of these. But sadly I cant becasue I would instantly look like a criminal. lol

[@dereksans2623]

Definitely is a unique car for being an 80s car. My dad had a 87 Chevy cavalier station wagon which later eventually traded for a 1996 Chevy lumina which I ended up getting when I went through school.

[@newtonlee7849]

Cimmarron can be Versailles cousin. Both have a similar heritage as being a re-badged, dressed up, disguised Cavalier, and Granada respectively. The biggest mistake GM made with the Cimarron was that they didnt learn from the Versaille's mistake of putting draping a tuxudo over a Granada & calling, & pricing it as a Lincoln. This lead to a similar short life of the Cimarron.

[@sailordave1000]

Hmm, I wonder if he could replace the engine and transmission with the 2003 Chevrolet Malibu 3.1L 170 hp and 4 speed auto transmission as well as replace the rear suspension with a fully independent suspension?

[@AcuraLvR82]

What got the Cimarron its nasty reputation was just how very little effort GM put into the original models. Those interior switches, gauges, instruments, radio, hvac etc was all cheap basic parts bin stuff thrown together. I remember my grandmother's hairdresser use to have one with a digital dash and it was pretty neat, and the seats were an odd mix of super hard slippery leather but light as a cloud to sit on lol.

[@g1sokool669]

I bought an '85 with the 2.8 and the sport suspension. I would frequently drive it at 100 mph on the hilly, twisty, back roads of western PA. It was actually a very mismaligned automobile,

[@bricegraham8256]

Lol Mr.Regular is getting ready to do a Cadillac Cimmoron. I've never seen one of these to be honest

[@BokBarber]

I see that the Janesville Bureau of Commerce got to you.

[@ydmf2]

I've always loved these cars.👍. Good memories

[@nolahahnshouse3389]

God the j body.. my parents and my brother owned j bodies back the day

[@ShootingCars]

More J-Body Reviews incoming!

[@Twitch_Moderator]

The LB6 2.8L V6 was available in the Cavalier as well. From 1985 onward. So Caddy just added a ton of luxury to a an already existing car (As usual). In this case, a compact.

[@rdbull5890]

Had they put in a V-6 from the start and spent some real money making the exterior look truly different than a Cavalier it might worked. "GM took Chevy's homework, scratched out the name and put their own" is pretty accurate.

[@davidperry4013]

Also put in a warning chime instead of a buzzer from the start as well. A luxury car back when warning buzzers are first required should ding instead of buzz.

[@rayjames6096]

There's not much you can do with something like that but maybe put a hood scoop and racing stripes on it...shame it didn't come with t-tops.

[@bennetfox]

Is this the same cimarron that came from the Rural Vermonter on KZbin?

[@kwasia4882]

I grew up in the 80’s/90’s, and a find it so strange this car kept being referred to as a Cadillac. Regardless of the badge, all I can see is my old next door neighbour’s Cavalier.

[@MrChuckGrape]

I've always wanted one of these.

[@pgtmr2713]

It should have cupholders. Open the glovebox, for the shallowest cupholders you've ever seen.

[@Jwdude123]

It was advertised Cimmaron by Cadillac.

[@Dankcatvacs]

my aunt had a 87 chevy cavalier , couldn't kill it. 2.0

[@simonf8902]

In Australia the J body was the Holden Camira. 2 litre 4 from Opel. It was an OK car but nothing amazing. Long gone. Came in a wagon tpo.

[@pdennis93]

I call these Cadvaliers I have heard them referred to as Cavillacs. The Cimarron actually started as an 82 model but released early in mid 1981.

[@courtneypuzzo2502]

@BLK Bandit each GM division had a J Body car I.E. Buick Skyhawk the Cimarron as in this video the Cavalier Oldsmobile Firenza and Pontiac 2000 and its rebadged versions I.E. sunbird/Sunfire until the platform was retired in 05 the Cimarron was nothing more than a tarted up Cavalier and it cost around 83% more than the Cavalier did to start for the 4 door sedan Cimarron was Cadillac's first failed attempt to attract younger buyers as buyers used to traditionally start in the mid 40s though that's starting to reverse now with the 2023 Lyriq Electric SUV. as someone who has loved Cadillacs since they were a little girl some of the shorter Caddys just don't feel right to me calling them Cadillacs I.E. the 4th and 5th gen Seville's the CTS etc. generally when most people hear the name Cadillac it conjures images of big old American Luxury cars Limousines and Hearses or of the MOB or old Hollywood Celebs I.E. bob Hope's red Eldorado coupe or the pink 1958 Series 62 Convertible Paul Newman drove in the 1963 movie Hud

[@bwtv147]

The Joker of the J-Body rebadges. Nobody believed it was a Cadillac.

[@robertdiehl9003]

Wonderful review

[@Red84GT]

I had an 88 Cadillac Cimarron. It was blue and I paid a whopping $500 for it.

[@Sinista-Beatz]

This was basically an upgraded Chevy Cavalier basically a Pre-Corsica Chevy

[@elizabethcherry920]

This car needs to be restored and preserved, even though this is a Cavalier how many do you see.

[@arnepianocanada]

*4-cylinder engine* at launch - like Cavalier & clones. A few upgrades, price $12,000+ (Chev and #2-high Buick versions cost $7-7,500.) *16 sec. 0-60! Hated for good reason.

[@Jimmy24720]

To be honest I like this car it has something attractive to it

[@СашаГетьман-ъ1ж]

Opel Ascona in Europe , Isuzu Aska with robotised transmission in Japan

[@MotorheadRedo]

It's a Chevrolet with leather and Cadillac logos? I still think it's a cool car. Both the original primary and secondary keys for this car had the Cadillac Crest on the key head.

[@Jwdude123]

The brochure actually read Cimarron by Cadillac.

[@DS_IndustrieZ]

hell that Seville n etc got downsized so small they didn't need the comma,

[@SeanFlaherty]

tape player has a chrome switch, so that's good

[@seanwhitlock_]

If he ever wants to sell it, I'll buy it.

[@Quest4Unknown]

Oh god.. I had one of those with 60k miles and everything was bad on it biggest POS ever.. actually got it for 500 bucks so wasn’t a total loss..

[@vicp8772]

Gm always on top of their game. Cos of these j body's, we moved to Toyota and Honda

[@MrOktsx]

GM should have waited a year or two before debuting the Cimarron, maybe in '83 as an '84 model. It sould have debuted essentially how it looked in '88 with V6. And, it should have only been available as loaded, for $12-13k. Only options should have been exterior and interior colors . I think it would have sold much better if it weren't rushed to market. All the Cavalier looks aside, the first few years destroyed the reputation of the car.

[@Greatdome99]

It's okay to allow smaller, cheaper cars to look a little like their more expensive brethren--but not the other way around. If Chevy had come out with a "Cadillac-edition" Cavalier sold in Chevy dealers, it might have been a success. Perception is everything.

[@matthrivnak6572]

It's a cavalier in a dress and heels!

[@robertdiehl9003]

2.8 engine was an excellent engine

[@jamellloydhampton7907]

CIMARRON 2.8Liter V6 is 125 horsepower

[@quillmaurer6563]

I've always been amused by these. As someone who hates snobbishness and "aspirational goods," I've always disliked badge engineering, the concept of "luxury brands" that seek to differentiate from and look down their nose at the corresponding "peasant" brand. Being intended as status symbols through their badges. The Cimmarron is like GM themselves accidentally parodying the absurdity of this concept, by slapping Cadillac badges on a Caprice.

[@auntbarbara5576]

Ppl make fun but this Cim is better looking than so many grotesquely overstyled cars today with their big fishmouth grills and horse nostrils. Id totally daily this Cim.

[@wordman3624]

Back when people still smoked in cars...or at least a lot more people than do now.

[@OnlyTheFinest125]

Wow... Three speed auto.... Ooooooooof

[@iFixJunk]

Trouble was, would you have wanted to plunk down Cadillac money for this not-a-Cadillac? THAT'S why it failed. Fuel embargoes, etc. don't factor TOO much into the financial decisions of wealthy people. They still want luxury. Their friends would judge them TOO harshly getting into that backseat.

[@sutherlandA1]

As cynical as the Cimmaron was especially the first models, I don't see how this is much worse to the rest of the late 70s-80s Cadillac range which were just blinged up versions of the rest of the cookie cutter GM range so the rot had set in before it's introduction

[@LGaragem]

Yeah, the car had a negative reception because it was such a lazy attempt at luxury by upbadging a much cheaper J-Body, not because it was particularly bad or unreliable. It was just as bad as the other GM products of the time, not any worse.

[@quillmaurer6563]

I get the sense that it was the worst of an ongoing trend for Cadillac, the point at which they hit bottom. From there they tried to get their image back in order, differentiate more from other GM models, revive their appeal, but I don't get the sense they've really succeeded much, Cadillac doesn't mean what it used to and I don't see many buying them - mostly just older folks. In the '50s Cadillacs were the epitome of luxury, the car for people who made it, but over time they became more generic, bottoming out with this, and since then they've not really recovered as European manufacturers have become more regarded as the luxury brands. Really their heritage is still all they have to go on, I have to imagine the majority of current Cadillac buyers are people who remember the time when Cadillac really was the best, since their youth they dreamed of owning one, and now, in their retirement, finally can.

[@pdennis93]

Our 85 cavalier must have been an ohio car. It already had rusted out doors and rocker panels when we bought it for $800 in 1993.

[@SecondLifeDesigner]

My parents had both the Cimarron and a Cavalier wagon. They are the same car and they were both pieces of crap. Both transmissions went out right at about the same mileage. My mom had the Cimarron and took it to the dealer for every scheduled servicing and oil change and my dad only changed the oil on his Cavalier every so often and they both still fell apart at the same time. The difference between the two is the Cimarron had slightly better plastic. The leather seats are either fake leather or the cheapest leather I have ever sat on. Both were gutless and drove like crap. I can't believe my mom gave up her Jaguar XJ6 for the Cimarron. My dad downgraded from a Saab 99 to the Cavalier but not by choice my grandmother borrowed the car and ran a red light hitting another car. The Jaguar drove like a dream and had class and style which the Cimarron had neither. The Saab was more sporty and was fun to drive. The Cimarron was just a polished turd with a Cadillac badge stuck on it while the Cavalier was just a turd.

[@geraldscott4302]

EFI is NEVER an upgrade from a carburetor. In fact it's the other way around. I have a 1983 Chevy S-10 pickup with a carbureted 2.8L engine, with just under 300,000 miles on it, and the only engine issues I've had so far have been a leaky water pump and a distributor oil seal that started leaking. Normally I stay FAR away from front wheel drive cars, but I wouldn't mind having a Cimarron in decent condition just because it's something different. I would definitely prefer the carbureted version. It certainly looks a lot better than any modern front wheel drive sedan, and it's missing the GARBAGE technology, like airbags and ABS. It also has proper sized wheels and tires, not that GHETTO trash like newer cars. Unfortunately most cars like this were scrapped a long time ago, and the few that are left you can't get parts for.

[@HansBelphegor]

6:55 because they should have put a 3800 in it

[@deegeeess49]

I'm pretty sure it's a four-speed automatic.

[@michaelcoffey7362]

Cool😀

[@averyparticularsetofskills]

8:03 *more