2 Atonal Fugues

[@naphtanaptha]

Many people have commented and asked on this video, why I used double flats/sharps, and a key signature, despite the pieces being atonal. I've answered it a few times already, but for everyone wanting to ask in the future, or who hasn't seen the other comments, here's a quick summary. -Intervallic continuity: If a subject has a jump of a certain interval, I always tried to keep it, even if it resulted in a double sharp/flat -Visual meaning: Music is not purely acoustic, at least not to me. I am fascinated by notation, and it can play a big part in how I perceive a piece. A g double sharp sounds identical to an a, or a b double flat, but it's not the same. This is also the reason for the key signature in the second piece. Of course its not in a key, but its were different, if I had notated it in C/without key. And building of on this: -It just feels right: When I wrote it, that's just kind of what I thought. When I thought of it as a g double sharp, then I notated just that. Sometimes also with no other particular reason. Atonality can mean many things, and some of them to me are freedom, intuition and possibility of experimentation. And that possibility alone is reason enough to notate it however, if it only feels/looks right to me! I know this isn't the best argument, but many other (established) composers have also done this regularly. I didn't even know this was such a confusing thing to do, until all these comments. Just check out this sonata by Roslavets: it even uses triple flats!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3mZqYdsp9KGepY Link to the sheet music: musescore.com/user/34360945/scores/11479279

[@WilfriedHLingenberg]

All fair and square, you just left out an important aspect: Readability. Yes, I know that your composition was not meant to be played by humans in the first place. If, however, one writes music for others to read and play then one should spend much time in trying to find the notation which is easiest to read (while still making sense harmonically). To this purpose, the first bar of your piece would, e.g., probably best have been referred to A minor; then the notes would have been G#-E-C-G(#)-G♮-F#-F♮-D. Of course, you would have to check whether this is still compatible with your harmonic intentions.

[@Swamp72]

I totally get where you’re coming from. The sheet music is just as much of an important part of the artistic process as the actual finalised audio, for me.

[@TheAluvisify]

@@WilfriedHLingenberg 100% this. At the end of the day, the whole purpose of notation practice is readability. You can bend the rules a little bit to justify a logical continuation that you have, but if it leads to some faulty reading you need to jump ship on the experimentation. I remember doing some similar stuff in my early 20s until I realized that there's little to no practical purpose, and it's just superficial fluff.

[@Sathrandur]

Six sharps in an atonal piece is there to make the musician think twice before learning it! Indeed, if six sharps frighten someone away from an atonal piece then they are probably not ready to play it even if it were written without a key signature.

[@petretepner8027]

@@WilfriedHLingenberg I agree very much. These pieces *are* playable (though no longer by my own 68-y.o. fingers!), but to put a six-sharp key signature at the start of an avowedly atonal piece (Fugue 2) seems like cruel and most certainly unusual punishment for the performer. If the "feeling" of a given note being Gx rather than A♮ is really so important, then maybe it would have been a good idea for him to write the pieces in (say) 19- or 31-EDO, in which these really are different notes.

[@oriraykai3610]

Pretty melodic for atonal. This is where computers really shine. Making something that's very difficult to sight read hearable in a few minutes.

[@naphtanaptha]

Very true. I tried to play the first one, it was not a fun experience.

[@Shyguy71588]

When you're trying to find your house keys 5 minutes late for work

[@tA_aT287]

😂🤣🤣🤣

[@josephsummer777]

Perfect

[@Perryz7]

first fugue sounds inspired by Feinberg’s fugato in his Piano Sonata 3 last mvt very good fugues

[@naphtanaptha]

It is (it’s also in the description) thanks :)

[@Perryz7]

Ah did not see in description still coming back to listen to the fugues

[@rickaccordion5900]

Simply amazing. Bartok would love these! So do I! Do you sell your music?

[@naphtanaptha]

thanks! if you want to access the sheet music, its available free of charge :) there's a link in the pinned comment

[@uxleumas]

I tried playing these two piece for my friend to prove that I played piano... They were not convinced.

[@RasiRon]

I want to hear more in this style it’s fascinating

[@MegaBubble]

check out the fugue at the end of Samuel Barber's piano sonata :3

[@commentingchannel9776]

Sorabji's fugues are more or less this but on every possible drug on the planet

[@KaikhosruShapurjiMedtner]

Check out the fugue from Feinberg’s third sonata, and the fugue from Szymanowski’s second and third sonatas.

[@kjanttigvu6887]

Nice. I find the fugues vaguely reminiscent in spirit of those in Ludus Tonalis. Well done!

[@Surr3alll]

You made me bob my head, which is quite an accomplishment I think. Lol. Well done.

[@naphtanaptha]

Thanks :) so glad youre enjoying my fugues!

[@neutral_puma845]

This is awesome!! So happy to stumble upon this 🔥

[@kirstenshute2729]

Nice work! You've earned yourself a subscriber :) I particularly liked the syncopated bits in the 2nd fugue.

[@OpenPianoRoom]

I listened with great interest. Thank you for the good music.

[@JohnLeonardMusic]

Chef's kiss! I'm an instant fan. It's raw and unhinged, I love it

[@MegaBubble]

these are great - I have next to no composition experience, but have been considering trying a short atonal piece just to see if I can do it :3

[@naphtanaptha]

i hope you have fun with it :)

[@OctopusContrapunctus]

Awesome fugues❤ I love it ❤

[@nyatoth]

It sounds actually great😊

[@naphtanaptha]

thank you :)

[@supasayajinsongoku4464]

@@naphtanaptha JAZZ FUGUE

[@williambunter3311]

Astonishing!

[@timothyj.bowlby5524]

This is very neat stuff. A few years ago, for a piano piece I wrote titled Tested Metals I derived a 12-note row from one of Bach's fugue subjects from the Well-Tempered Clavier.

[@SuonoReale]

Was it the B minor fugue from book 1?

[@timothyj.bowlby5524]

@@SuonoReale F minor, book 2.

[@liamesanchez]

Really cool work, thank you for posting this! Were you intending these to be playable for a pianist? I don't know of anybody with a right hand large enough to play a D4 and C6 (enharmonic equivalent B#) simultaneously at the start of bar 44 of Fugue 1. A similar issues arises in bar 28 in Fugue 2 with the C double-sharp tied from the bar before then going up to an A6. I'm going to assume that these fugues were an exercise in counterpoint more than it was written to be performable. God bless you and please continue to keep sharing your wonderful work with us. Would love to see what you create in the future.

[@naphtanaptha]

yes you’re right in your assumption that it’s meant as a contrapuntal exercise. it could be rewritten relatively easily though i think to be playable. happy that you enjoyed it!

[@yuk_notkim7658]

Very funky. Love it.

[@Shaan_Suri]

Apologies if I am uninformed, but what's the skill in making an atonal fugue? The hard part of a fugue is creating the complex polyphony while still making sense harmonically and following the rules of voice-leading and counterpoint. In an atonal fugue can't you just overlay subjects and diminutions and retrogrades as you please?

[@naphtanaptha]

I guess in a sense the hard technical part in writing a fugue isn't present, but that's not the only difficulty when writing music. having it sound coherent, suggesting some type of emotion or insight or anything of interest is in my opinion the more important end. of course wether I succeeded in doing so is something everyone has to evluate for themselves subjectively. (why then write a fugue at all you might ask? I think a fugue doesn't live from the difficulty of realising a multiphonic texture while regarding all these rules. that is a fascinating display of skill and knowledge and is undoubtedly interesting and artistically worthwhile (since in my opinion art and craft aren't really separable), but the unique and timeless character of a fugue can be applied for its own sake, for example in a piece like this)

[@b-yl6kb]

I have no idea what I'm hearing but I like it

[@FurinaFan_UWU]

I usually despise atonal music but this is simply amazing!

[@connorcmusician]

despise???

[@Asymmetrization]

​@@connorcmusiciansome people have different tastes

[@annamilluzzo8077]

Bellissimo ! Bravo ( mi ricorda un poco gli studi di Camargo Guarnieri ) .Grazie from Sicilia .

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Love it!

[@handavid6421]

Aint no way

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

​@@handavid6421 LOL The atonal stuff of the enthusiast is always very clickable for me, good stuff :DDD

[@EggBenis]

omg this is amazing!! :D

[@StephenGrew]

Beautiful

[@thedesolatemusic]

brilliant work

[@Geopholus]

This is a SUPERB FUGUE ! so satisfyingly atonal, and the building releasing of tensions that even Bach would love !

[@naphtanaptha]

thank you!!

[@riverstun]

Bach would have called this noise. If he was in a good mood.

[@Geopholus]

@@riverstun , Unusual for me but on this point I disagree with You Riverstun. I find this melodic, and compelling and meaningful musically , and also very pleasing, even though it is supposedly 'atonal". Meanwhile there are several preludes and fugues, I think by Scriabin, that I find very much to dislike about, especially that the tensions and releases are illogical and non sensible for me. This one is consistently sensible and very satisfying to listen to.

[@BurningSky9]

​@@Geopholus I suspect you were thinking of Shostakovich. Scriabin didn't write preludes and fugues.

[@Geopholus]

@@BurningSky9 Thanks for the correction ! Actually Scriabin did write at least 5 fugues , but they all seem to be pretty frick'n awesome. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zp-aeZesibCBb9Esi=hoBS7sfDtOlg6RmL. ... I do suspect it is several of Shostakovich.'s fugues that I dislike. I should do some more serious listening before criticizing ! Yes I just listened to several Shostakovich preludes and Fugues,... # 2, seems particularly awkward in following a form, to which it can do no justice.

[@josephredingmusic]

is this free atonality or serialist? This is some of the most effective use of the atonal sound I've ever heard, and I've had to trudge through a lot in my Composition Classes XD

[@naphtanaptha]

its completely free. musically its inspired by feinbergs fugue in his 3rd sonata, which isn't atonal, so there is probably quite a lot of vague tonality floating along. thanks for the compliment!

[@SaintDeus]

They reminds me of Shostakovich's fugue. Nice piece :-)

[@stinkeycookie2382]

Sounds awesome, wow!

[@hesangasong]

Very cool. Is there a reason for using key signatures and double sharps/flats if it's atonal?

[@naphtanaptha]

Thank you! Yes, it's because of the exact repetition of motifs. For example the main motif of the first fugue has a lot of diminished and augmented intervals in relation to the starting note in it (for example the augmented fifth at the beginning (because it thought of it as an augmented chord), augmented second to the 5th quaver, diminished fourth to the eighth quaver, etc.). And then every time the subject returns, I tried to keep it the same note for note, and from that quite a few double sharps and flats resulted. A couple of those could probably have been avoided if I had changed the starting note enharmonically. E.g. in bar 35, where the soprano plays the subject in its inversion, if the starting note were a# instead of b flat, the subsequent e double flat would be a d natural. I didn't spend too much time making these little simplifications for readability, that's probably why there are so many. I hope that helps :)

[@oriraykai3610]

​@@naphtanaptha Also, when you transpose a line by dragging and dropping in sequencer software, it does that. 😉

[@WilfriedHLingenberg]

@@naphtanaptha Hmm ... Strictly speaking, music can only be _either_ atonal _or_ notated with key signatures or double accidentals. The notion of "diminished" and "augmented" intervals ultimately does not exist in "atonal" music.

[@naphtanaptha]

continuing that logic a piano would be physically incapable of playing atonal music, because its layout is based on tonal music. but its not. same thing with western notation. some concepts come from tonal music, but can still reasonably be applied to atonal music

[@WilfriedHLingenberg]

@@naphtanaptha Strictly speaking, the piano with its well-tempered scale is already incapable of playing tonal music.

[@martinbennett2228]

Why 6 sharps for a piece without a tonal centre? It gives the impression that you are taking the mickey. I tried the first fugue at half speed, this make it much easier to follow, but also I felt the entries left a hint at a tonal centre (sort of A to D).

[@galvinn]

reminds me of shostakovich's Db major fugue, although that piece did end in an actual key. i think it's the jumpy fugue subject

Same here 😊

[@Montcalf091]

Great work!

[@ukdavepianoman]

I have no problems with "atonal" (or non-tonal as I prefer) music. I love a lot of Schoenberg and Berg so it doesn't phase me. Actually a lot of film music (especially action/thrillers) includes non-tonal - but people are too busy watching the screen to notice how modern the music is. These were interesting and lively. I preferred the second as there was more rhythmic variety. In the first the answer maybe needs to be more rhythmically differentiated from the subject. I presume the performance was generated rather than live? Or you have a remarkable stretch :)

[@naphtanaptha]

thank you :) it is indeed a digital playback. i actually tried learning it, but it was an absolute pain to memorize lol

[@jefff8079]

Is this inspired by Feinberg? I hear the fugal section of the 3rd sonata in the theme of the first piece

[@naphtanaptha]

Yes! I also put it in the description. Especially the first subject is inspired by that.

[@jefff8079]

@@naphtanaptha ah, didn't see the description. Good stuff!!

[@naphtanaptha]

thanks!

[@ThyAngeryBear]

Amazingly well written, loved it

[@MicoAquinoComposer]

So good!

[@teodorb.p.composer]

Great fuggues, it reminds me Feinberg's 3thsonata fuggue, but it's very diferent and original in it's own way

[@gilevansinsideout]

Very cool

[@bruimprov]

Wonderful! A Schnittke influence? This was written first- not an improvisation?

[@naphtanaptha]

im not familiar with schnittkes work yet, so no! and you're right, it was not first improvised but written with pen and paper :)

[@bruimprov]

@@naphtanaptha You may want to start listening to his music. I improvise in a new music " contemporary classical" dissonances and atonality. I would appreciate you following me.

[@naphtanaptha]

thank you for the recommendation :)

[@franciscoaragao5398]

Muito bem. Obrigado.

[@_rstcm]

The 6 sharps in the 2nd one's key signature is just cruel.......

[@cauemuratt6119]

who are you??? its absolutely amazing!!!!

[@naphtanaptha]

Thanks so much!

[@ShaunakDesaiPiano]

Love the Liszt reference in the title.

[@eensio]

Very intensive music, sounds nice. The notation is very difficult🤔. Splendidly played!

[@MaximusDowns]

The kind of music that finishes and you say, "What'd you say about my mama!?!"

[@josdurkstraful]

Fuge #2 ends with a nice V-I cadence 😁

[@juicedelemon]

no counterpoint rules when you dont have tonality right? /j really cool!

[@helmutlocatelli4070]

Bellissime!

[@RodericSpode]

Normally I'm not that much of a fan of atonal music, but that was really great. Maybe I need to reconsider atonal music. Thanks.

[@RodericSpode]

@@Whatismusic123 I just listened to it again without watching the "metaphorical jingling keys", and actually enjoyed it more this time. I'm not going to try to tell you why you don't like it, so please have the courtesy to allow me to have my own opinions, and my own reasons for those opinions.

[@RodericSpode]

@@Whatismusic123 Whatever. You didn't get the memo either. I'm not interested in your opinion. Go troll somebody else.

[@themobiusfunction]

@@Whatismusic123 whatever. Have fun trolling.

[@lucazordancomposer1733]

I love atonal fugues, both listening to them and composing them, they are just so much fun. You nailed it! It's not that easy to compose something crearly atonal but also very melodic. I only have one doubt: are those unusual accidentals (F flat, E sharp, as also double flats and double sharps) actually necessary? I find them to just make everything harder to read, as well as the key signature in the second fugue. For example, the very first notes of the first fugue: Ab, E, C, Ab, G, Gb, F, D. Isn't it easier to just avoid those accidentals? Maybe it's just an obsession of mine! Anyway, a very nice job.

[@naphtanaptha]

Thank you! Yes, a few people have pointed that out. I've explained it by saying I was thinking in intervals, for example the opening notes of No1 are M3 M3, outlining an augmented triad. Ans subsequently its always M3 M3, no matter the starting note, thus resulting in double sharps and flats (and similarly in other places). Also, it's important for melodic clearness, e.g. you have a g# and a lower changing note, of course, you could write a g natural, but you hear it as an f double# if that makes sense. Lastly, the sheet music itself is part of the piece, having a piece notated in 5 sharps, even though it is atonal, still gives some connotation, that is hard to grasp, but might just feel right to the composer. I hope this is kind of understandable! Maybe I would edit it if someone were to perform it, to make it more legible, but so far, I just didn't give too much thought to it (like starting on an ab rather than g# to avoid f double #, which would certainly pe possible, and maybe even more sensible. I just didn't.).

[@lucazordancomposer1733]

@@naphtanaptha I'm not sure I get what you mean, or better, I understand it but that's not my view when composing. But that's ok :) It's nice to see what's in the mind of other composers when working on their pieces :)

[@user-pq9yg2pq6h]

Schön. Auch gut: The COVID-19 Fugue .

[@pseudotonal]

Hahahaha! These are really fun, with some lavish flourishes and unexpected anomalies. You have an excellent ear for what makes musical sense. You might like my "4 Star Fugue" or some of my other fugues. I like fugues. It is a form that has been neglected too long.

[@josephciolino5493]

Appreciate the technical mastery of composition but what's the point? Without functional harmony there is no drama, no meaning. IMO.

[@CatkhosruShapurrjiFurabji]

The subject of the second one sounds like that of the fugue from Feinberg's 3rd sonata.

[@calebhu6383]

They are both seemingly inspired by bits of the 3rd sonata fugue.

[@IsakCaritaFeliz]

Very nice work, is there somehow, a way to get the score? I’d like to learn it!

[@naphtanaptha]

Yes, it is available on Musescore :) If you play it, I'd love to hear it! musescore.com/user/34360945/scores/11479279

[@IsakCaritaFeliz]

@@naphtanaptha thank you! :)

[@objectobjectobject4707]

wow !

[@hisky.]

some moments sounded like if Bach was atonal, am i just tripping or was this intentional

[@naphtanaptha]

I mean I didn't directly draw inspiration from Bach so you might just be tripping. its rather inspired by feinbergs fugue in his 3d sonata

[@amadeus6982]

Si es atonal por qué poner re doble sostenido, y no directamente mi?

[@naphtanaptha]

Because I was trying to stay true to the intervals of the themes

[@cinder7127]

This was funny 😃

[@МихаилШипилов-ч8ы]

Не совсем понятно, зачем в атональной музыке употреблять дубльдиезы и дубльбемоли .

[@javiertw89]

Nice!

[@m.a.g.3920]

Dodecaphonism or is another type of composition style?

[@naphtanaptha]

it’s just free atonality :)

[@Lopfff]

Love

[@atomaalatonal]

i remain unconvinced.

[@Atomz09]

What is this?

[@naphtanaptha]

2 atonal fugues

[@JoshuaWillis89]

Pdf?

[@naphtanaptha]

musescore.com/user/34360945/scores/11479279

[@gentle_goy23432]

Мне нравится.

[@frederikkok9284]

Sounds like Shostakovich's Fugue op 87/15. Oh no. that's in D-flat major.

[@naphtanaptha]

I can see that though! I guess it’s notated in Db, but there’s a good point to be made for it being atonal, oder at least partially so.

[@tarikeld11]

I would've used "sempre staccato" xD

[@simonalbrecht9435]

Check out Ernst Toch, I think you might like his music :)

[@derbar7051]

Modern Music Universities in a nutshell.

[@paulking2919]

Bach would like this.

[@putinmysie8102]

Sounds kind of Kapustin fugue

[@mydogskips2]

Interesting, but I don't like the dynamic shift to piano, at least not done abruptly as it is here, it's unnecessary and makes it hard to hear.

[@m.c.b.t.a.646]

Why is there a double sharp if its atonal 😟😟

[@ulugozkan9502]

😂👍

[@pianista-mediocre]

It souds like Prokofiev

[@cesar_8336]

This kind of music was being played when Jesus were crucified.

[@Definiteness]

Sounds like atonal Mario

[@rembo96]

Death metal fugue :)

[@Jimyblues]

Yoshi

[@coreylapinas1000]

Killer clown music

[@zakzaki9542]

very interesting but it has a level of dynamic control that no pianist could ever hope to achieve tbh

[@MAXKENT-mh7lu]

better than Bach

[@yuk_notkim7658]

I wouldn't say that

[@CalMarcy]

Hard to play, Harder to listen to

[@supasayajinsongoku4464]

JAZZ FUGUE JAZZ FUGUE PLEAZWE

[@lejudahh]

this is NOT a fugue

[@pianista-mediocre]

Why?

[@MrDen-lv5uj]

Sounds like a three-year-old child is just randomly hitting the keys 😂

[@porkyminch5131]

That's atonality for you 👍

[@PASHKULI]

stop this nonsense

[@lowlightpiano7110]

Repent and trust in Jesus. We deserve Hell for our sin. Lying, lusting, etc, but God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross and ride from the grave to free us from sin. If you repent and trust in him youll be saved. Romans 3:23 John 3:16😊

[@turtle945]

Atonality is my lord and savior

[@naphtanaptha]

i agree

[@MicoAquinoComposer]

Amen

[@mikejoe1534]

@@turtle945 Do you believe in good and evil?

[@Isegawa2001]

Amen!

[@riverstun]

You havent a clue what a fugue means. A fugue is a methodology for maximizing texture while retaining coherence. All you have done is make noise. Woo Hoo. You could quadruple the noise and it still would be noise, and only noise.

[@themobiusfunction]

No

[@garrysmodsketches]

"methodology for maximizing texture while retaining coherence" This is a meaningless word salad

[@TristinBailey]

@@garrysmodsketches It's meaningful word salad. Just opinionated meaningful word salad.

[@garrysmodsketches]

@@TristinBailey "maximizing texture" is a meaningless collocation in this context

[@naphtanaptha]

i tend to agree that the fugue in particular is a form that enables great contrapuntal and textural complexity due to the amount of independence between several voices. i just don’t get the leap from this realisation to ‚atonal fugue bad‘