2 Claims About Psychedelics and the Default Mode Network DEBUNKED

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Nowadays we hear a lot of claims being made about how psychedelics affect the default-mode network.
These claims often unequivocally link the default mode network to ego-dissolution, and claim that disrupting the default mode network is central to the therapeutic effects of these drugs.
The thing is, however, the research doesn't really directly support either of these things...
Specifically, the two claims I critique and debunk in this video are:
(1) Default mode network disintegration = ego-dissolution
(2) Disrupting the DMN causes the brain to 'reset'
Hopefully this allows you to appreciate how we are really still in the infancy of psychedelic research and are only scratching the surface of our understanding.
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More info about the host:
Manesh Girn is a Neuroscience PhD student at McGill University and has been lead or co-author on over a dozen scientific publications and book chapters on topics including psychedelics, meditation, daydreaming, and brain networks.
Manesh currently has ongoing collaborations with Robin Carhart-Harris and others at the Imperial College Center for Psychedelic Research and is investigating the brain changes underlying psilocybin, LSD, and DMT.
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[@Lisa-xf5uf]

I started meds at 13 and all I had was trauma. Diagnosed bipolar after TBI. I kept getting crazier and more meds and more meds. I came off 7 psyche meds on my own with amanita muscaria and im 11 months med free. I'm free from any signs of mental illness. Somehow 🍄 I don't hate myself and think negative thoughts anymore and it is amazing❤❤❤

[@haleydourron1312]

This raises the question if resting state is even worth anything? If we cannot attempt to correlate it to any subjective effects what is its use? I completely agree that we cannot say that the DMN, SN, or any other network is THE sense of self. However, I think based on the correlations we should now do task-based inquiries into how components of the sense of self can be altered under psychedelics and after. Additionally, psychosis is acknowledged to have self-disruptions, but in different directions and also has DMN alterations. Awe has also been described as a sense of small self, and has been found to be associated with an increased DMN deactivation compared to positive emotions in general when elicited by a video in a scanner. I think based on this examing how the DMN may be related to the sense of self is helpful, but it has to be done in a more nuanced way, along with acknowledging differences in aDMN and pDMN connectivity, the claustrum, salience network, and likely other regions. Do you have any thoughts on how to better understand self disruptions and the DMN and other brain regions? Side note: I think what would be helpful for psychedelic science as a whole is to stop using the term ego dissolution as disruptions to the sense of self are probably more complex than one phenomenon and ego dissolution implies there is one way for the self to be disrupted.

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

I think there is definitely merit in correlations with resting-state. You just need samples of a minimum of ~60 subjects to have correlations with any reliability. And even then, you'll need independent replications to start having any real sense of certainty. And I agree, targeted paradigms are certainly needed. Resting state is just a first start. And I also agree with your point regarding the term 'ego dissolution' - the correlations are only meaningful to the extent that the subjective measures point to something clear/useful. Right now existing measures of ego diss or even mystical experience do not come close to mapping the full range, complexity, and nuance of these experiences. Neurophenomoglical methods (see the microphenomenological interview) are critical moving forward.

[@iriswirthner6989]

So glad to have found your channel! Thanks for the great work!

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Much appreciated!

[@deonvanzyl5644]

Hi Manesh. Great videos! Thank you for getting to the essences in such brief times. Do you have any thoughts on the Claustrum regions in the brain and psychedelics, and how that perhaps relates to "ego dissolution" ? Thank you again. Deon

[@JessieJussMessy]

Dang, this video slaps yo. Thanks for the no-BS breakdown!

[@nopranablem]

Interesting nuances! Such great content. Loving the TMI & Chogyam Trungpa you got back there! I'd love to see a book review / recommendation video!

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Cheers! And yeah at some point I will do some videos like that 👍

[@paytengunia394]

Hey man I love the channel and support everything that you're doing. I actually been wanting to get involved in the psychedelic community and help make change. On a side note I believe that when it comes to collecting data the reason why different groups of people are getting different types of data is due to things like meditation, music, types of music, and specific thoughts. I personally feel meditation and music play a huge part. There's a youtuber I think you should look up his name is Psychedsubstance he is what people call a "professional".lol

[@moanamason2454]

The best way I have found is to listen to music that touches your soul. I can't ruminate if I'm listening to words put in my head by the music and if the music makes you feel good your not concentrating on being depressed...

[@cosmictickle5168]

Can’t believe that I just found you. Glad I did, new subscriber.

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Thanks for watching!

[@moil6384]

LOVE YOUR VIDEOS! thank you bro

[@danre64]

Writing this part before watching: I always thought of the default mode network as the network of one's "personal narrative". Writing after: Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I don't really think we can or should try measure this abstract concept of "ego dissolution" as quite honestly I think that's more marketing fluff. As for the findings on the default mode network connectivity. From what I've gathered, a diffuse DMN tends to present in a lot of mental illnesses. And I interpret that as the DMN being intertwined in conjunction with other networks. Whereas to have a well functioning DMN is to be able to switch it on and off, without it interplaying too much with other networks. So the idea of the DMN being stronger appears to me as a good thing, and very similar to the research on meditation from what I gather. I like to think of psychedelics as a sort of 'forced' meditation. What do you think of this concept?

[@matheuspadilha5799]

Hello Manesh! Great video again, thanks for the information! I'd like to know if anthropological data has any space in the scientific community you are a part of. These are different fields, but do you think we can succesfully dissociate cultural and religious/spiritual aspects from the psychedelic experience (including it's objective effects on people)? I believe psychedelics exist to connect us to nature in it's broadest sense . Do you think it's possible that this opportunity of connection gets lost in the growing psychedelic business?

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Hey Matheus. Thanks for the comment. There is definitely a lot of ongoing anthropological research on psychedelics. Especially on ayahuasca, for example. I would look into Chacruna.net as a starting point to learn about this area. I agree that the sociocultural/religious context are essential for the experience. And I don't believe we can dissociate the experience from them. E.g. a medical approach is also a sociocultural context with its own assumptions, frameworks, etc. I think a lot of care needs to be made with how these drugs are incorporated into the mainstream. There are a lot of voices, with various motivations and perspectives. It's unclear how things will pan out, but I'm optimistic.

[@JK-ii9he]

Hi Manesh, Is there “disintegration” of the DMN when its activity reduces during many tasks (the kind of tasks that resulted in the DMN being historically referred to as the task negative network)? Thanks!

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Sorry for the delayed response! It's a good question. Task-related disintegration is actually not commonly looked at (the statistical analyses involved are distinct from those related to activation), but in some of the studies that it is, the DMN becomes more integrated while also becoming reduced in its activity. So it's important to remember that the degree to which regions correlate in their activity (i.e., show functional connectivity) doesn't have a clear or consistent relationship with whether the activity in those regions is increasing or decreasing. This suggests that regions within the DMN might be actively involved in the task (i.e. show functional connectivity related to the task) although they show reduced activity. It's a complex picture.

[@openmindintegration4790]

The term "reset" assumes a lot, and it's often used in the underground community as a general way of saying one lets go of their sense of self for a moment. As I understand it, it also assumes the person does go back to normal, save for the memory of what it was like to let go of their ego. Theres some lingering neuroplasticity, but a person almost always goes back to their old self. I believe integration occurs when a person willfully adjusts their lifestyle and behavior because of their new psychedelic insights.

[@blakerupert]

Gleick's Chaos! Panda's Thumb! Carl Sagan! Great books man. It's rare to find folks who are familiar with this range of ideas

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Cheers man! Just too many interesting things out there, I've often struggled with limiting myself

[@onsightitify]

I like the snow globe analogy. Psychedelics disintegrate the snow by shaking the globe, then the snow reintegrates in a new pattern once settled.

[@Ewr42]

I see my Ayahuasca church as being inside a snow globe whilst everyone gets twisted inside out from every dimension, being untwisted like 4d knoted sheets The whole structure of spacetime as perceived gets untwisted too, the overall effect is like a piece of infinite fabric which gets perfectly interlaced with every other fiber Besides being a snow globe, it's part of a Christmas decoration set, which is why inside it it feels like the year 0bce, sometimes 50.000bce I think it's sad that people go back to being their old selves right after, I try by best to remain in a state of constant rebirth, untwisting the knots that make me up, letting go of all my beliefs and seeing everything from all imaginable perspectives and interpretations. Anyway, I get your analogy and I see it slightly differently with the same truth beneath it, but the snow globe mention has another subjective interpretation to me, but it sure does feel like the whole immediate universe, inside and out, is being rearranged. Sorry if i didnt make sense, also, I didn't even start the video yet, so dont know whats the context of what you're saying, just felt the urge to share this, hope you can get something from my interpretation as I did from your comment.

[@fionamcalister1927]

Hi Minesh, I’m really enjoying your site - thank you for benefitting us with your knowledge. I have one request though - it’s likely that many of your subscribers are, like me, non-scientists and find it tricky to keep up with the science that you describe to us. Therefore I would be so grateful if you could slow down a bit - if you were able to slow down your speech and also put in a few pauses between sections, it would help my brain process the flow of information. Thank you.

[@connorflanigan2432]

Great video!!

[@rockyourpain4683]

Great job!

[@WilliamBrowning]

Just discovered your channel. Liked and subscribed. PLEASE, in the future provide links to the papers you have used to create your content.

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Thanks for watching! Yes I’ll make an effort to do so.

[@devvildogg1775]

Isn’t ego disillusion a subjective claim? How can you quantitatively measure one’s dissolution of the ego?

[@BlanBonco]

I'm always curious about interoception's role in every experience. Seems like a huge variable.

[@olesyam7434]

I love this channel, neuroscience is so interesting 🤔

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Thank you for watching!

[@naftalibendavid]

These are super. Nice work!

[@luiscamargo3297]

Nice!

[@watchingsomevideos]

i started 🍄 b/c i thought i was only dealing w/ lingering depression and anxiety; causing a mental block. turns out that professionals i seen failed to recognize i had ADHD. my DMN was (& currently is) behaving atypically. my issues were solved in the short term with a large dose. it's only been recently when i decided that since ADHD medication hasn't addressed that issue (6 months), that i am going to try 🍄 integration every other week and paul stamets microdosing schedule. 1st weekend, i took a smaller dose and symptom relief was noticeably shorter (and no visuals). hoping that either other meds combined or repeated 🍄 use, will help my DMN revert back to default - and enough compounds are available for my brain to allow me to study. (for those w/o ADHD, there's a separation of what your personal goals are and your brain has the veto power to allow it to happen. sometimes, it just convinces you that you aren't interested in something - even tho you are.)

[@dianegordon5366]

Interesting talk! However, people interested in the recent research about psilocybin and other psychedelics care little about neurophysiology. The interest is about how these substances may help depression, PTSD, and other distressing illnesses. It is this concern, not how they work, that is important. Various current research, such as at Johns Hopkins, has produced more than a little evidence that they do. I was surprised to read that the US government is now funding such research. It’s unlikely that this would happen without some indication of the effectiveness of psychedelics. So your argument here is useful to those of us who are interested in neurophysiology. This is a much smaller group of people than those who are interested in how psychedelic drugs help to provide relief from painful psychiatric conditions. Whether or not the drugs work on the DMN is of no interest to anyone who cares primarily about public health.Although your argument here is clear to the non-scientist, an amazing feat, btw, I am surprised you did not once mention the elephant in the room. (I've since watched some of your other videos that do.) Would psychedelics necessarily require turning down the activity in the DMN to work as powerful psychiatric drugs? Much research argues that they are useful. The way they work is only of interest to scientists, not to doctors and others looking for relief from mental illness. I'm curious to now listen to your other talks, about microdosing, etc.(n.b.now I have!) I'm wondering what you think about research in how meditation affects the brain. In any case, bravo, a wonderful channel!

[@thinkdifferent356]

5:19 reverse infrernce

[@RobbieTao-fl5fo]

Well, why is it when I take heroic dose, it feels like I’m in the deepest meditation ever.

[@framestomind7548]

people seem to more often than not mix up wanting to feel good with neuromuscular functions of the body and brain to reset itself. is not the same thing! you can feel crap or good while your body rest or is under stress. you are not an engine and engines are not aware or feel crap or happy due to multiple reasons and external stimuli as a human does. so debunk yourself first and stop thinking everything is about How you feel at the moment...

[@Revenge_Porn]

Is this guy against psychedelics or something?

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

Yes the guy who is making videos on psychedelics to educate people and trying to get to the bottom of what exactly they do is certainly against them!

[@dr.nug7103]

@@ThePsychedelicScientist If this was sarcasm, it wasn’t that good.

[@BlanBonco]

​​@@dr.nug7103just as the war on drugs backfired so does endless hype. Accuracy matters in novel spaces.... space being the most extreme example 😊

[@TheLuckyShepherd]

"There is evidence that the default mode network becomes more disintegrated in the Spsilocybin state." You literally just debunked yourself trying to debunk the claim. Lol it seems your argument only holds water if you're defining ego dissolution in a way other than most people seem to. Ironic how the student makes an egotistical video about ego dissolution. Lol 🤣☯️✌️

[@ThePsychedelicScientist]

You misunderstood one of the main points: the link between the default mode network and ego dissolution is preliminary at best. Whether the DMN is disintegrated is contingent on the particular analysis pipeline used, and does not necessarily entail anything specific about the experiences people undergo. Much more research is needed.