20: What About Eternal Marriage? | 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy

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Since polygamy and eternal marriage are both based in the idea of sealings taught in section 132 can we let go of one and still hold on to the other? Does exaltation depend on either? How does it all work?
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[@kriszab]

I have been a member of the Church all my life and I am a huge researcher, much as yourself. Polygamy has been a desperate prayer of mine for my whole life but became real to me the week before I married in the temple 20 years ago. I feel my prayers were finally answered this year! I just awoke to researching about the Church history since the Church's stance on Covid when I saw the Brethren start to walk lockstep with these evil institutions. I used to justify instances as it was Satan trying to twist truths into misconceptions/deceptions and I would try to rationalize things the Church was teaching from the pulpit. But, when Covid came, there was no rationalizing it any more. It has been a heart wrenching but very eye-opening year for me. When you pray for understanding, and you are prepared to hear the answers, Father in Heaven pours out truths through the Holy Spirit. I think there are going to be a lot of LDS people that will be surprised when things don't end up as they have been taught. I am so sorry that happened to you, it is awful to hear what has happened as a result of you gaining and sharing more information. Rob Fotheringham, who is a member and worked at the church headquarters for years, gave VERY educational clips with historical documents about Polygamy and the supposed Elijah visit to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (amongst a few other topics.) It is very clear that neither of these things were brought about while either of these two men were living but instead furthered Brigham Young's narrative that he could marry and seal whomever he wanted. Also the new and everlasting covenant was changed to Polygamy and Celestial Marriage by Brigham Young in Section 132 when this covenant had nothing to do with marriage. To view these, type "Rob Fotheringham" into the search box of youtube. If you want further eye-opening information on what the BOM says and what JS taught about the Doctrine of Christ, type "Doctrine of Christ" into both youtube or it is own website as a dot com. Ears to hear, eyes to see! Thank you for your great videos!

[@defythegrid9577]

Same for me. I saw that the virus wasn't as dangerous as people were saying. I knew the injections had some sort of alternate motive. I looked to the brethren to put their foot down. Instead, I was let down when they supposedly got the injection on tv, then sent out several confusing and faith denying letters to its membership. That's what woke up the desire to know the truth in me. From there, I learned that polygamy was not from God and several other things. I still hold the book of Mormon dear.

[@sdfotodude]

DnC 132 is STILL Doctrine and your church admits Joseph practiced polygamy in the Gospel Topics Essays.

[@kathryn866]

Excellent video! I first began questioning what "families can be together for ever" meant as a young adult when my active and faithful, temple sealed parents divorced after 28 years of marriage (they remained sealed). No one had good answers of what their divorce meant for us six children who were sealed to them, I was told often that the Lord would work it out in the next life. A decade later my mom was nearing death from breast cancer. I really needed to know if I would see her again and began to look for evidence of family relationships after death in other places outside of the gospel. I began exploring accounts of NDEs and was impressed with how many people who experienced a NDE had family and/loved ones (and even pets) come to them in a joyful reunion. It was then that I realized the Lord wasn't going to keep families who love each other apart just because they weren't "sealed" in a LDS temple! I now believe we will be with those we truly love in the next life whether we are sealed or not.

[@MichelleBStone]

There are so many situations that make these teachings painful and confusing. That would be so hard as a teenager -- and you're right, there are no answers. I'm sorry you have had to go through all of that, and losing your mom. So hard. I didn't even think about all the NDE's when I was preparing this, but you are exactly right! There is so much evidence everywhere!

[@sandymmusic8909]

Michelle, Thank you so much for this and I couldn’t agree more. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that my dad, who’s never been a member of the LDS church, sat outside in the cold in the middle of February in 2001 while I was in the SLC temple getting married. Also his whole side of the family (really amazing Lutherans) flew all the way from MN to be at my wedding and they also sat outside in the cold. It makes me so so sad. But at the time, at age 23, as a student at BYU, I didn’t think much of it. I will never again do something so inconsiderate, cruel really, in the name of religion.

[@sdfotodude]

Mormonism (Brighamite sect) is a horrible religion.

[@robblevine]

I am not a Mormon but have always been fascinated by the Mormon Church’s history with polygamy. I really enjoyed this video, deeply appreciated you sharing your personal experiences, and found this discussion to be thought-provoking and really fascinating. Thank you!

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

I was reading 132 to my husband the other evening and we had a pretty good laugh about the way he, Brigham, was going to DESTROY every woman who didn't pander to his desires. I am trying to teach my tender husband the truth of some of the things that are wrong in the church. He has never been interested in practicing polygamy in this life or the next so he is really listening to what I am telling him about polygamy.

[@lisatreelove9278]

This episode just made me want to give you a big hug. Thank you for being willing to be vulnerable.

[@jandurham5400]

Michelle, Thanks again! You are right, the Lord saves, not any institutional leaders. In my decades of study, I've concluded JS did not author 132. And I believe JS's wonderful wife, Emma, when she repeatedly said Joseph was married to only her. I believe completely your spiritual experiences, thanks for them. I also know from Heavenly assurances that we will be united with family, loved ones, and friends. You are blessing the lives of many with your efforts. Keep doing the Lord's work. I have highly recommended your podcasts to many in my family and friends.

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you

[@Karli_searches_and_prays]

Great episode!! I always felt off teaching this as a missionary, I didn’t fully believe God would separate families just because they weren’t the “right” religion. It also made me think of many near death experiences I’ve read, most of which were not Mormons, and they all visited with family members on the other side!

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

This video hurts. I cried buckets of tears over my lovely Lutheran grandmother, worried sick she would've make it to the celestial kingdom because her faith was different than mine. The pain was tremendous. How cruel these false teachings are so the sincere in heart. Thank you so much for helping my soul heal over these things.❤

[@charityendureth]

2 Nephi 30 17 There is nothing which is secret save it shall be  revealed; there is no work of darkness save it shall be made manifest in the light; and there is nothing which is sealed upon the earth save it shall be loosed

[@fancynancy4380]

We need to always remember that good things come from God. Anything that would take our focus from his promises and Covenants that we have made with him personally and weaponize them is not from God. He is Good and forgiving. Families are forever and eternal whether you are sealed in the temple or not. The focus of sealing is to seal us back to Christ and our heavenly parents. Not to be used against us when we haven't telestially gone through the temple. Your girls are proud of you and are making a place for you and your family when the time comes for you all to progress after this life. Love always! ❤️

[@Sayheybrother8]

So sorry for your recent loss. It seems these videos have been a good way to negotiate your feelings. I can’t imagine the pain or confusion and I respect your courage to share publicly your pain as well as the bravery of publicly sharing your spiritual concerns while others try to scare you into thinking and sharing the status quo.

[@evelynellsworth6211]

I read a book about NDEs by an LDS writer, and one of the people during her experience saw people jovially together playing croquet and such, and she could sense their familial relationships to each other. She ended up feeling Satan's presence there as well, so I think she was having a vision of spirit prison. The vision inspired her to spend time doing family history work and trying to give the people she saw the chance to make covenants with God. But in the context of this episode, I think her vision was a great example of how people will still be associating together after this life, whether that's in God's kingdom or a lesser glory. Anyway, I loved this episode; it spoke to something I've been thinking about lately about how salvation works for other Christians who have a relationship with Christ but don't have restored ordinances. And I think their relationship with Christ is absolutely real! In other words, they are receiving spiritual power and progression even if they aren't baptized into this specific church. I think they will need to accept such ordinances at some point in order to progress further, but I think a faithful evangelical (for example) who discovers in the next life that those ordinances are necessary will be happy to accept them. And that person won't just be wallowing in anguish while he or she waits for temple ordinances to be performed vicariously. The person will still have the relationship with Christ that he or she gained in this life! In a similar way, people will still be with their families in the next life, and as they learn more of the truth might want to progress with their families to exaltation. But even if they don't want that, they'll still be with their families. Those are my thoughts after researching other Christian sects and having positive spiritual experiences with my non-LDS Christian friends. This episode helped me think even deeper about the topic. Thank you!

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

The word of Wisdom was never created to be a source of controlling the people. It was only given as a health guide.

[@leahcarter6618]

I have a friend who recently left the church and she had so many doubts that I couldn’t help her reconcile. One of which was that the church teaches that good people will be separated sometimes for thousands of years while they wait for someone to do their temple work. I have never felt that was the case and told her that, but she would always say that’s what the church teaches, therefore the entire organization must be false. 😕

[@melindawood4885]

I am continually amazed at how much your inspirations go along with mine. After watching a few videos of yours, I did go and read D&C 132. As I read, it did seem to me that there was 2 authors of it. One voice that spoke of just husband & wife and the eternal marriage and then another voice speaking of polygamy which felt bad to read. I wasn’t sure what to think of it, so I really looked forward to hearing you discuss it in one of your episodes. When you spoke about Heavenly Mother & Father as a team and then a third party coming in and the discontent, I got chills, which is one way the Spirit confirm things to me. I also appreciate you showing inconsistencies from one prophet to the next, which shows to me that the individual still influences how things are done, showing that they are still spiritual men and spokesmen for God, but not infallible. I see and understand the balance of that more & no it does not make the Church not true, the gospel of Jesus Christ is still true, it just makes it that more important to have your own connection to God and how important it is to pray for yourself if these things are true. I see the balance.

[@Sayheybrother8]

Isn’t it crazy that having more than wife is the only way a man would qualify for the celestial kingdom and now in the very same church it will cast you into outer darkness. Mmmh! Why don’t more people see the issue here and acknowledge that doctrine changes?

[@morjulies]

Wow. I have never thought of it like that. so true.

[@fotochikyo]

Wow, this episode and the last episode were amazing, discussing things that I specifically had a conversation with my mother about yesterday, very interesting. I don't think it's a coincidence. So validating. Thank you. Love that you ponder what is God's truth and share with us. God bless you.

[@maxjenkins7139]

Sorry for your loss. You dear lady are exactly right in the questions you are asking. Keep up your good work. Trust me that the church doesn't have all the answers and specifically many members have no heart

[@nycmermaid3158]

God Bless you! I am so sorry for your profound and unimaginable loss of your child. May you find comfort. I do respect you and your pure heart seeking truth in your relationship to God.

[@brentlarsen4414]

So, ... our children aren't really "sealed" to us. At least not in the sense that we talk about it within the church when we talk about eternal families. Go do some vicarious sealings of children to their parents, and listen to the wording of the ordinance. They are sealed into the Abrahamic Covenant, through us. The blessings they receive are the promises of Abraham, not a promise that they are "ours" for eternity. That's not to say we wont be with them in heaven, I'm not saying that at all. I'm only saying that the worry that many members have about properly sealing the right children to the right parents, etc... is needless worry. Consider a situation where two people are sealed as husband and wife, have some children in the covenant, and one or more of their children opt out, and choose some other kingdom. Are they suddenly not their children? Can they not go visit them? Can they be exhaulted as Gods and Goddesses, and be somehow be incapable of visiting those they love? !!? That would be absurd.

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

Haha, I love your "mom hall of fame" story!

[@jessicaking3692]

Another great episode, thank you so much! So many things change in the church and it doesn’t really make sense. Thanks for sharing!

[@connectionstochrist700]

Thank you so much for sharing Michelle. Amen to your beautiful insights. Jesus stayed in the church and lived and loved and did His father's will. Thank you for sharing that insight. It brought me to the insight that the church like the sabbath is made for man and not man for the sabbath (church). Mark 2:27

[@kingoreo3642]

Thank you! You said a lot of things I have been thinking about but couldn’t explain with such clarity. I loved the movie scenes. My grandfather passed away, then “came back.” After that, the movie Ghost was one of his favourites.

[@theemergencyprepguy]

Yay! I needed something to listen to on the sabbath!

[@nycmermaid3158]

No one has any power over the eternal bond between beings. Especially a Mother and child! You are connected eternally and nothing any church can say has ANYTHING to do with that sacred bond. This church is only a couple of hundred of years old. And profoundly paternalistic. Was everyone lost before this?!! God Bless you for your courage!!!! You are a visionary!!!

[@randalloveson8441]

Note: Cerement is not Cement. Cerement is a burial cloth or shroud, usually with wax added so it would hold shape around the body and not let go.

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you! I should have looked that up instead of just assuming I made a typo. I'm glad to at least know that now.

[@bulkley]

What a wonderful presentation; thank you for sharing your heartfelt insight with us!

[@randalloveson8441]

Interesting that you assume that some verses of D&C 132 feel "true" and others do not. It is easily provable in the JS Papers that things he wrote against polygamy about the same time (1843) were changed to mean the exact opposite of what he originally said by later administrations and historians. I, personally, believe that when D&C 132 was received, it was received in purity and was about sealing. By the time it was "found" in Utah in 1852 (9 years later and 8 years after Joseph's death) it had been severely modified by the same people who where modifying "history". If you like, I can share the links so you can see at least one very stark example of this. Also note that 3 Ne 16:10 specifically states that when the fulness of the gospel is rejected by the Gentiles (Gentiles = initial restoration who brings forth the book of Mormon, also see D&C 109:60) then abominations, whoredoms, lyings, deceits, murders, etc come amongst them. What better example of this do we need than the Utah Church's practice of polygamy and blood atonements?

[@MichelleBStone]

Love this comment! I would love the links! I've seen many of them, but having them in a compiled list would be extremely helpful. Thank you!

[@katsmith2343]

Hi there. Would you share the links about people modifying history with me? Would love to research that. Thx!

[@randalloveson8441]

So the original text from Joseph’s journal states: 5 October 1843 • Thursday Thursday October 5. morning rode out with Esqr Butterfild [Justin Butterfield]. to farm &c.-- P.M rode on prairie to shew the Some brethren some land.- eve at home walked up and down st. with scribe.- and gave inst[r]uction to try those who were preaching teaching or preaching the doctrin of plurality of wives. on this Law. Joseph forbids it. and the practice ther[e]of- No man shall have but one wife229 [6 lines blank] [p. [117]]

[@randalloveson8441]

Resulting in the final text as it appears in Church History, Volume E-1 5 October 1843 • Thursday 325 326 Thursday 5 This morning I rode out with Esquire Butterfield to the farm &c.. In the afternoon rode to the Prairie to shew some brethren some land. Evening, at home, and walked up and down the Streets with my scribe. Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for according to the law I hold the keys of this power in the last days, for there is never but one on Earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred- and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise.

[@randalloveson8441]

So you can see from the original, the final Church History, and the draft in the middle that this entry, regarding polygamy, from October 5, 1843, was changed to mean 180 degrees from what was written. Note that October 5, 1843 is 3 months AFTER the supposed D&C 132 was received. The entry was changed by Brigham and the 12 after Joseph's death to match the similar language they also added to D&C 132 about "only one holding the keys". Hope that helps (and that KZbin allows the links to be posted!)

[@sharoncampbell4904]

People need to read stories of the experiences of nurses who work in hospice care. Loved ones are often met by relatives, to be escorted to Heaven when they die. This is not exclusive to any certain religion or faith. That speaks volumes to me about being able to reunite with people we love on the other side. Since many of my family members are not members of the church I belong to, this is very comforting.

[@jessieluce912]

An idea that I was given at some point once and not sure where it comes from is that once resurrected, you can choose to visit those of your same glory or lower, but you cannot visit those of higher degrees of glory. They can visit you. Has anyone else heard that and know where it came from?

[@MichelleBStone]

President Oaks has referenced it recently. Ironically in the same conference where he talked about eternal polygamy.

[@morjulies]

Its crazy to Consider that because my husband may be excommunicated and technically "loose" his temple blessings, based on the opinion of one man , due to a difference in opinion on what it means to follow a prophet. It is just ludicrous to me. It is also interesting that the definition of apostasy has changed too. I have peace in my mind also that one guy wont be choosing where Patrick ends up .. it will be God who who will judge.

[@JakobPGrau]

Apostasy from apostasy is no sin.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Life is full of chances to exercise one's faith

[@morjulies]

​@@JakobPGrau agreed,

[@sherileecornaby725]

At 21:15 I’m feeling my own personal witness that what you’re saying may be true. Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience and witness!

[@lindseyoh59]

Good stuff.

[@leem3299]

Lovely. Just lovely

[@cab9191]

I think you’re spot on. Love your stories and feel your emotion and heartbreak in them. I can only imagine, dear sister, what you’ve had to endure. I was crying with you tonight (literally crying at my hospital job haha) especially with the Somewhere in Time and Braveheart scenes… Btw: I met you at the devotional tonight and it was a pleasure… my initials are my KZbin name😁… So… it seems come down to this… WHAT WAS Joseph trying to accomplish in those last couple of years of life? Right? What visions of eternity may have been rolling through his mind? I suspect that he saw, in part, what the light of Christ reveals to most of mankind, namely, that the pure love that we foster in our family relationships is eternal in nature and will continue into the next life - like you so wonderfully shared in your video… But what else was it? Sealings, adoptions, elections, kings and queens, priests and priestesses? What of these strange doctrines? I believe there is MUCH more here than we (as a people) have understood, and I DON’T believe it’s mired in polygamy 😤… Please allow me to take a quick stab at this, and share some of what the Lord has begun to show me (at least what I believe the Lord has begun to show me). This might get a bit deep, and is simply my own inspiration, so please forgive me… Okay, here it goes - I hope you can follow me…. I believe in progressionary estates. For example, I believe that Abraham (and Sarah too) came to this earth as a god (little g), a noble and great one, and at a higher estate than almost all others, save Jesus. And I believe that Abraham merited his “holy calling” based upon his “exceeding great faith” (Alma 13:3) from a previous probationary state. So when Abraham (and Sarah) obtained their seal (meaning they obtained a spiritually ratified promise and assurance from God that THEY would be a father of many nations), then they had a nation and family placed under their divine providence and care…. That means that those who are under the covenant and protection of Abraham will have the divine tentacles of grace feeling after them through the angels (the angels themselves being part of that same covenant family grouping, but merely working from the other side of the veil). These covenant “children” are part of the promise given to Abraham and Sarah, and heirs of that same promise if they learn to seek “the Way” of the Fathers. They (these children) will ultimately be afforded various opportunities to receive the Word of God (enter the gate and path of salvation) through the administration of the angels during this round of earth’s existence. These children, I believe, are also given opportunities to be ministering angels themselves. “The children” must learn to remember the promise of “the fathers” during the time of this world’s creative cycle or their probation will be utterly wasted. Thus, we see that salvation is a very much a family affair, and to be adopted into this family (the house of God) is to begin to literally participate in the work of salvation (aka the work and the glory of the Father(s) (Moses 1:39)). This is THE work of creation, and how to fulfill the measure of one’s creation - to be adopted in, and be saved from the fall, and to continue in the creative progressionary cycle (ourselves being created in the image of God, grace by grace - after His order) while assisting to save others - worlds without end. Melchezidek and Enoch and Jesus received similar seals. They were given a promise that they would be Princes of Peace and fathers of salvation. Enoch and Melchezidek were temporal saviors of children placed under their care, while Jesus/Yeshua was a spiritual savior…. This MAY have very crazy implications for those who believe that Melchezidek was in fact Jesus, but in an earlier estate of progression, as he was growing grace by grace… But suffice it to say that Jesus so perfectly represents “the Way” of the Fathers to us, that he is literally called “the Way”, and to partake of Him, is to partake of all the goodness of the Father’s house. He stands at the gate of that path alone and invites us in (to be spiritually begotten/adopted as His sons and daughters). I pause to note that when I speak such salvific estates/ roles as priest, king, and father that they all seem to necessarily require an equal female companion as a priestess, queen, and mother… (Yes I’m thinking of your ideas on Lot’s wife here… 😉) NOW THAT BRINGS ME TO JOSEPH SMITH…. PERHAPS Joseph came here at a similar estate of progression as Abraham. Perhaps he, like Abraham, had these mysteries of Godliness flowing and bursting upon his mind. Perhaps he, like Abraham, was seeking after “the promises of the fathers”… Maybe Joseph even began to seek, like Melchezidek or Enoch, to become a Prince of Peace or even a King/father of Israel (a role he is documented as calling himself before the Council of 50)…. This all MAY help explain his desire to establish Zion, a city of holiness, and may also give better context to some of these strange doctrines (like sealing, adoption, election, eternal family etc) that seemed to be on his mind in the last years of his life, which we never have come close to really comprehending (since Zion was neither established nor redeemed). OH BOY, I went way too deep…. But you got me thinking and I had to go back to some journaled notes of mine to share…. I hope that made sense to somebody 😄🤷‍♂️

[@MichelleBStone]

Wow. Thank you for sharing! There is SO MUCH to think about and ponder on. Abraham Gileadi teaches some somewhat similar ideas, but yours go much deeper. This is a lot of food for thought and I don't see any reason to oppose it. It seems obvious that we have multiple probationary periods, but being that I have far more questions than ideas. I really like your thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to write them out! Oh, and I was so happy to get to meet you! Thank you for saying hi. That was definitely the highlight of the meeting 😉

[@cab9191]

@@MichelleBStone Hahaha… now that’s funny

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Really good video tonight. Maybe I should say extra good video tonight.

[@littleredhen3218]

So many things I have had to consider over the years.

[@natemanafter]

I have loved this episode

[@tombarratt956]

Thank you Michelle for being willing to tackle this subject. It is my opinion that section 132 cannot be trusted as a scriptural basis as well as other sections canonized in 1876. They were fiddled with or even created to advance polygamy as practiced behind the back of Joseph Smith. We all know less than we think we do as well as much more than we think we do. Polygamy is a doctrine of men not of God. It is much easier to grasp and incorporate the concept that the Family of God and a man or woman becoming the Spouse of Christ is the fulfillment of individual mortal families and mortal spouses. People all see future existences via this Telestial existence which is like looking through a glass darkly. Keep up the good work

[@Sayheybrother8]

I love your videos! About this one I feel all the historical evidence and provenance of the letter demonstrates that 132 is a letter to Emma specifically and solely about the new and everlasting covenant polygamy and getting her to accept it. It doesn’t make sense that he would dictate the letter to her to try and convince her of a special new monogamous marriage. Your thoughts? I mean this letter sums up the messiness of church history. It was supposedly written in 1840’s but released to the church at the end of the 1850’s when Brigham publicly announced polygamy so we don’t even know if it really happened or was written this way. You’re totally right to also note the concern of sealing here. The men who talk to God have been all over the place when it comes to sealings. I don’t know about you guys but man I get overwhelmed by the fact every principle or doctrine of the church is so confusing and random. Depends on who the guy is who talks for God or the culture and tone it seems things change so much. Is this really how the Lord our God and Father would communicate the most important aspects of the church to His children. All while dismissing the vital role of the Savior His Son Jesus Christ. My faith is shaken!!!

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Your faith must be in Jesus Christ and His Atonement. If it's in men or an organized anything, it will be shaken

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Like the apocryphal writings

[@niccun02]

You forgot The Ghost and Mrs. Muir 💛🤩

[@MichelleBStone]

I haven't seen that one! I'll watch it this weekend 🙂

[@meridentoombs3840]

Awesome video and some perspectives to definitely think about. An answer that I believe that I received is that the current way of sealing husband to wife (and I would guess other sealings), is an abomination to God because he has something so much better. I'm still pondering this, but know that God has a plan!! :-)

[@soneedanap]

I hate that our church is associated with polygamy. It seems like such a lame distraction from the many glorious truths restored. I did a study some time ago of section 132 and concluded that it is really describing 1- All covenants under the keys of the priesthood. 2- monogamous celestial sealings. 3- plural marriage as an Abrahamic test. I don't believe it is teaching that plural marriage is at all the norm. Nor necessary for exhalation. I will have to consider it more if plural marriage was ever commanded of God. If it wasn't, everything would make so much more sense. But it would also mean the keys of the priesthood were held for a time by men who abused them. Can the keys survive evil men? They must have.

[@MommaCrissa]

Wow, before you got to that part about verse by verse and your experience I had already been thinking, it was absolutely been tampered with and I wondered which parts were true and which parts had been inserted. I already know that polygamy itself is not of God because I had answer ro prayer, but to work out all the scriptures and prophets is the biggest thing. I've watched all of Gwendolyn Wynes videos and wow, it all came together. I had never considered beforehand that we would have forged partial documents because we believe the Book of Mormon as the most correct book, so why wouldnt D&C be moat correct too....but Im learning alot! I think it was John C. Bennet. I wish a journal would come forward with 100% proof.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Polygamy survives in the Proclamation of the Family. Where man is to preside over his family/wives. And where man and woman ideally have separate spheres. (Adaptation implies disability or some kind of less than ideal reason. Like the husband being a loser and being unable to provide sufficiently. It does not imply a woman may prefer to work outside the home and a man be more involved in the home by taking less demanding emoloyment.) Where does the scriptures even use the word "preside" a single time? They don't. It was Ezra Taft Benson who started using that term for the father of the family. I don't see any significant difference between "rule over" and "preside." Other than preside implies to rule over righteously. But it also implies one family member has ultimate power to decide and delegate.

[@kahina937]

I still believe that an eternal marriage is a true and right principal. Even putting D&C 132 aside, we have evidence in the early Christian church of importance of marriage. Some Gnostic sects practiced a ritual of Bridal Chamber which could potentially be an early equivalent of the eternal marriage. However, I don't believe that the sealing alone ensures the continuity of the marriage after death. It is the connection we build between each other. If there is no connection built or minimum of it is established in this life, it doesn't guarantee the spouses will remain together. So I think there is a beauty in this teaching. Approaching marriage as eternal from the start really helps both to invest in it and take it seriously if they treasure it. On the other hand, if someone is stuck in a miserable relationship and wonders if they will have to be miserable for eternity, they will not be forced into this after death. It is against the nature of God. I know the church teaches that families cannot be together after this life if sealing did not take a place. I personally believe and received a strong evidence that families do get together there and commune. What the ordinances do in my opinion, is they help families to enter the Celestial Kingdom as a family eventually, but a loving God would never keep loved ones apart.

[@charisecarlson]

Thank you for this video! I so appreciate your sharing your journey, wrestling with these things. And I LOVE how you always go back to what the scriptures do and don’t say. I had never questioned what the scriptures say about people associating after death. When I looked at it logically, I had come up with the same problem. Does God let people hang out, but only if you didn’t know them before you died? That doesn’t make sense. Also, just look at humans and how we function as families. It just didn’t make sense to me that once we died, we have no units of society unless we are in the top level of the Celestial Kingdom. You are such a great example of how to approach these problems! Being open, with prayer and the scriptures, with personal revelation, and with reason.

[@jackiechoate6163]

132 v 19-20 even though it's talking about one man, one woman, it is still problematic. The new and everlasting covenant has to do with baptism, not marriage. It has been redefined in 132. Exaltation is another term that you can't find in the scriptures in the way the church uses it. We can receive the Holy Spirit of Promise through the 3 part baptism. If a man and woman married receive the 3 part baptism individually, then maybe they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise? I wonder if an additional ordinance(sealing) is really necessary after their initial marriage to each other. I have heard family talk about families and the after life. Some say the celestial people will be able to visit family in other kingdoms. Sort of like how not everyone can go to the temple if their not worthy, but you can meet them at their house. I've heard some say the degrees of glory aren't separated by geographical location per se but it is a state of being. So many variations. But you are right that there are no scriptures that mention children being sealed to us. I guess church leaders figured, God put us in families on earth, so it must be the same in heaven. I believe the history of sealings had to do with the law of adoption, and people being sealed to Joseph Smith as a dispensation prophet. I believe people(especially men) were sealed to Brigham Young. It was like if you were sealed to a prophet/president, your station in heaven would be better. I forget which president decided to just make it family sealings. Have you heard of the idea of composite beings? It's crazy to think about, but I'm open to the idea. Anyways, here is an article on the history of the Shakers in regards to Joseph Smith's dealing with them(section 49), marriage, and the idea of composite beings. The comment section has some good discussion in it as well. Since I can't post a url link, you will have to fix the dot com part of the url to copy paste. I hope you will take a look. It's fascinating. onewhoiswatching.wordpress(dot)com/2010/08/09/celibacy-the-doctrine-of-marriage-the-shaker-connection/

[@MichelleBStone]

Great insights! So much to think about! Thank you for the link.

[@rationalnuggets9617]

Why is it feasible that baptism is required but no other ordinances are?

[@ConfidenceInTheLord1]

At the end you mentioned that even church historians don't think section 132 was meant for the public. Do you have a link to that quote?

[@MichelleBStone]

Oh, I wish I did. I have heard that several times over the years, but I haven't collected sources. As soon as I come across it again, I will link it here.

[@rebeccacampbell585]

Is it unrighteous dominion to try and seal children to you? I'm not certain but it's a possibility. Also the idea of people telling God what to seal is preposterous. I've been searching for truth since age 29 now and my understanding is so very different to what I was taught in church. I am past the point of worrying or stressing personally what the church says but my goal of truth seeking keeps me participating in these conversations. This was another great podcast with your unique perspective. Also I remember some of the online conversations that were going on that you described. I saw you comment on things. I was out there too. I dont think you did anything wrong.

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you!

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Unless the exact same number of men and women enter the Celestial Kingdom, how can every worthy person that wants to be married be married without plural marriage existing in the next life?

[@melindawood4885]

There is so much we don't hear when we read the scriptures because of the false traditions that have been taught by our fathers. The Word of Wisdom is first not a commandment, but council to avoid conspiring men & women in the future. 1. It says don't drink hot drinks; it does not specify what. There is a study that drinking drinks at 140 F increase your chance of throat cancer. I tested my tea and yep, the temperature I determined to be "cool enough to start drinking" is 140 F. I will now cool my hot drinks more. There is so much I would like to say, but I will keep it to myself and will just keep it basic. Let me ask you this, what is harmful about caffeine? Right now, ideas will be going through your mind about the negative side of caffeine (there are a few positive too). Now let me ask you this, what are the negative side effects of drinking herbal tea???? In fact, there are medicinal natural healing effects of it. So why is it okay to take pharmaceuticals that have harmful side effects that we all joke about and laugh off, but tea is the worst thing for our bodies?????? Here is another thing that opened my mind, and it was from a joke a non-member friend said in college: What is the difference between a Mormon and a Non-Mormon? The temperature of their caffeine. Another big point is after it mentions hot drinks are not for the body or the belly, THE VERY NEXT VERSE SAYS: 10 "And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man." Also, if we are "keeping" the Word of Wisdom, most read only PART of D&C 89: 12 "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving;" BUT WE STOP THERE, the verse is not over there is a semi-colon PLUS verse 12 ends in a semi-colon it is still NOT over, here is the rest: "thansgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ;" verse 13 "And it is pleasing unto me that they should be used, in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." So yeah, vegetarians are not that crazy. HOWEVER, I'm a big believer that you live the laws when you are ready to. You'll have a moment for when it clicks and you receive a new understanding and then you proceed from there. Another mis-conception I believe is the location of where the Book of Mormon stories take place. I can go on and on about this, but let's just read two verses that are right next to each other, but yet we read separately and to mean two different things. 2 Nephi 10: 10-11 "But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land." verse 11 "And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles." So usually we read these two verse as two different lands. Vs. 10 is Middle America for the inheritance for the Nephities and Lamanities and then vs. 11 and following verses are talking about North America, specifically United States sometimes. However they are the same.

[@melindawood4885]

Maybe we should get rid of verses and start reading the books of scripture as a whole.

[@Mikha335]

Michelle I know this isn’t the right video to post this on, but I’m here now and thinking on this subject. As you began your series on king David, you were going through judges and Samuel, and asked the question about where and how the different figures got their authority. Yes I agree, it’s an interesting question. But the answer is simple. They got their authority from God. In Deuteronomy 16 and 18, the tests for a prophet are given. In there, there is no qualification for priesthood authority because God has the power to speak through the person He sees as worthy. The proper question isn’t whether a proclaimed prophet has been ordained to the priesthood. The question is, has God spoken by the Holy Spirit through this person. In this way, God can choose whomsoever He wills without a hierarchical self perpetuating institution. You mentioned that “all Israel knew that Samuel was a prophet from Dan to Beersheba”. How did they know? Did they ask him for his priesthood pedigree? No. Prophets, like Jesus said, are known by their fruits. Even in the Book of Mormon, prophets come bounding out of the wilderness gifted with prophetic utterance. Alma baptizes by the authority of the Holy Spirit that descends upon him, and the people are ordained to offices - not by the power of the priesthood - but, “by the power of the Holy Ghost, which was in” the person ordaining them. (Moroni 3:4; 2:2; Mosiah 18:13) Years ago when I would give blessings or participate in ordinations, I always knew that if the Spirit God wasn’t speaking through the person acting as mouth, then no real authority was exercised. How did I know that? I’m sure that most do know that the real authority resides in the empowerment by the Spirit of YHWH. It is men that seek to find ways to claim authority by subverting the truth. Even Yeshua is called the Christ (Messiah) which means “Anointed One” referring to his anointing by the Holy Spirit he received at his baptism. John said he witnessed the Holy Spirit descend like a dove upon him, giving him the spirit “without measure”. Immediately afterwards we are told that Jesus was “led of the spirit into the wilderness to be tested of the devil” to prove his faithfulness to the One who anointed him. He then is found in the synagogue declaring the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy: “The Spirit of the Adonai YHWH is upon me - He has anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek …” (Isaiah 61:1) Peter also refers to Yeshua’s anointing with the Holy Spirit: “The word which God sent proclaiming peace through Jesus Christ … that word I say … was published throughout all Judea, and began at the baptism which John proclaimed - how YHWH anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good - for YHWH was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38) Shalom

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Celestial beings can visit the lower kingdoms any time they want. But not the other way around. -------------- Bruce R. McKonkie stated the first part of 132 has nothing to do with plural marriage. ------------------ Please tell me one other religion that teaches families can be together forever. (Just one.)

[@kencard6657]

I think your thoughts are right on. My feeling are much the same. What is it that really seals us together as "one?" It has nothing to do with organized religion but with our hearts immersed in unconditional love, a pure love of virtue, honesty, and holiness of character one with another. That is what binds us and seals us together. We all come into this world and are indoctrinated into the “letter of the law” in various ways. If we do not understand the language of symbolism found in the gospel or the symbolism in the NAME of god/God we remain asleep until we choose to awaken. All the glories, including the Terrestrial and Telestial, are part of the many mansions in heaven. All those who have not awakened fully will remain in that state of mind until they choose differently. The scriptures say they are “blinded by the craftiness of man” (D&C 76: 75; 123: 12) and are “some of one and some of another-some of Christ and some of John…” (D&C 76: 100-101). All the outward commandments and ordinances of the gospel, ancient and modern are all part of the “letter of the law” and the truths taught in the “letter of the law,” “are revealed to us in the abstract” [Pg. 12: 3 King Follett Sermon] [through symbolism]. The eternal truths of godliness are always taught to our Spirit in the language of symbolism and in saving our Spirit we are then able to save the body as Christ did. If our Spirit is not awake, we will not see the symbolism which the outward law is teaching us in “view of eternity” [Pg. 12: 4] as God sees (D&C 29: 34-35). Why have we been commanded to seek after our dead? This is not about the temporal law of genealogy work and doing “baptisms for the dead” that so many get caught up in, it is about another eternal principle of turning our hearts [which symbolizes our divine nature] to all. “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith; so, do” (1 Timothy 1: 4). Working for the dead is about [praying for them] that they may awaken to their divine potential and become as God is. In other words, we teach them by example and express the knowledge that they are self-existing beings, endowed with the potential to become divine and holy in their nature so they can become one with God and like god themselves and have salvation “in common with” the Gods [Pg. 13: 1 King Follett Sermon]. “If a man has knowledge [of who he really is, his divine potential] he can be saved” [Pg. 13:3 King Follett Sermon] with the God’s. “Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself, my works have no end, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed. Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created [“created,” meaning taught and instructed]. Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual (Doctrine and Covenants 29:33 - 35). The language of symbolism is essential to understanding who we are in relationship to Christ and the Father.

[@MichelleBStone]

This is beautiful. I'm going to have to read through it again to fully digest what you are saying. Thank you for taking the time to share. Deep thoughts!

[@cameronsmith5786]

Louisa Beaman was the first plural wife in Nauvoo. She was sealed to Joseph Smith on April 5, 1841-the day before the laying of the cornerstones of the Nauvoo Temple. Zina D. Huntington was sealed to Joseph Smith on October 27, 1841. Sarah Ann Whitney became a plural wife of Joseph Smith on June 27, 1842. Eliza R. Snow was sealed to the Prophet as plural wife on June 29, 1842. Eliza D. Partridge and Emily D. Partridge became plural wives of the Prophet on May 11, 1843, . According to present research, the names of all of Joseph Smith’s plural wives have been revealed, and their testimonies are recorded in heaven and on earth. They were righteous women who were sufficient witnesses to establish the truth upon the earth in such a manner that it can never be forgotten. Their combined testimony is destined to live, and to grow, and to spread upon the face of the earth-to be received, accepted, and adopted by all the virtuous, by all the pure in heart, by all who love the truth and seek to serve God and keep His commandments. Truth will prevail, and the day will come when they will be the most honored women on the face of the earth. In Nauvoo, when Eliza R. Snow, plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith, first understood that the practice of plurality of wives was to be introduced into the Church, she recorded in her journal: “The subject was very repugnant to my feelings.” But later, after growing in her understanding of the principle through the instruction of the Holy Spirit, she wrote: “As I increased in knowledge concerning the principle and the design of plural marriage, I grew in love with it, and today esteem it a precious, sacred principle.” Louisa Beaman was "a woman of irreproachable morality, who entered into the plural marriage relation on a deep-seated conviction that the doctrine was from God. Lucy Walker testified: "As I was praying the last time, an angel of the Lord appeared to me and told me that the principle was of God and for me to accept it."Helen Mar Kimball testified: ""A vision of my mind was open to see & understand the will & design of the Almighty [sic]. I had a view of the order of plural marriage. The beauty & the glory which I saw in it was enough to make up for the trials in this life.” Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner was just a young girl when she saved the Book of Commandments. She wrote in her auto-biography: "Joseph made known to me that God had commanded him in July, 1834, to take me for a wife. But he had not dared to make it known to me, for when he received the revelation, I was in Missouri and when he did see me, I was married. But he was again commanded to fulfill the first revelation or suffer condemnation, for I was created for him before the foundation of the earth was laid. I told him I would never be sealed to him until I had a witness. Said he, “You have a witness”. . . . I made it a subject of prayer and I worried about it because I did not dare to speak to a living being. I went out and got between three haystack where no one could see me. As I knelt down, I thought, why not pray as Moses did? He prayed with his hands raised. When his hands were raised, Israel was victorious, but when they were not raised, the Philistines were victorious. I lifted my hands and I have heard Joseph say the angels covered their faces.I knelt down and if ever a poor mortal prayed, I did... My husband did not belong to the Church. I begged him and pled with him to join but he would not. He said he did not believe in it, though he thought a great deal of Joseph. He sacrificed his property rather than testify against Joseph, Hyrum, and George A Smith. After he said this, I went forward and was sealed to Joseph for eternity.”

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you for watching and for this response. These histories are important and interesting, and were also all filled with contradictions between the various twists and recorded decades after the fact when it was extremely important to be faithful and supportive in the culture ruled over by Brigham Young, who had declared that he would brook no dissent. I have never viewed the worst for truth as any sort of battle against women, particularly these women. Quite the opposite. I deeply honor their sacrifices and I mourn for the terrible pain so very many of them suffered. False teachings do so much damage and cause so much heartache. It was fascinating to learn that section 132 actually disproves the possibility of polygamy working in God's plan. It clearly outlines the process of sealing and exaltation, and it can only work through monogamy. How thrilling to see God's consistency and unchangeable nature even when further light and knowledge is revealed! God established marriage between one man and one woman, commanded the two to be one, forbade cleaving to any other, condemned any teachings of any other system, then explained how the perfect system God established in the beginning could go forward to be the means of exaltation. God is so good!

[@brentlarsen4414]

is there any record of Emma being sealed to Joseph? it seems to me, that the first thing I would do, had I been given the authority to bind my family to myself, is to seal my wife and myself, and then our children. to me, if the first sealing that was recorded was to Joseph's second wife, then, the entire story about what actually happened is probably not reliable. something about this smells inaccurate.

[@cameronsmith5786]

@@brentlarsen4414 I can always tell when someone is ignorant of the facts or hasn’t done their own research. I don’t meant that in a mean or condescending tone. It is just that you are repeating talking points instead of historical accuracies. Emma was sealed to Joseph Smith first. In fact she was among the first women to receive her second anointing which was required ( in Nauvoo ) before being sealed. Emma received all of the blessings available before anyone else. In fact, it was Emma who helped administer the endowment and the first and second anointing to Joseph Smith’s anointed Quorum.

[@brentlarsen4414]

@@cameronsmith5786 ok, I don't have a problem with that, and I didn't realize I was pointing out some common "talking point". I was simply asking the question. Your response makes me even more curious. for all of those other women, you listed off dates when they were sealed, because there must be some record. Again, I ask, is there any record of Emma being sealed to Joseph? If so, do we know when? You were quick to point out all of those other dates, I assume there are records I'm unfamiliar with (having never made a serious inquiry into the subject). I figure you would also know when he was sealed to Emma. Sorry if my curiosity sounds like some sort of attack.

[@littleredhen3218]

Will you please attach all the promised links and talks?

[@MichelleBStone]

They should all be there now! So sorry! I got it with just a few minutes before I had to be somewhere and wanted to at least post the video before I left. Hopefully I didn't miss any. Please let me know if anything you need is missing.

[@ericbyers235]

Questions I have are: Wasn't Beaman baptized two years after she was said to have been sealed to Joseph Smith according to the Times and Seasons? If that's the case, how would that work? Also, 132:19 (and you have to include 26 as well) is still problematic as it creates new doctrine of a second resurrection for those who will be exalted and that they can commit any sin they want and still be exalted (short of murder and denying the Holy Ghost). These are some challenging questions to be answered.

[@MichelleBStone]

I agree that there are problems. I personally find verse 20 problematic (as I alluded to) and I don't love 26, as that is where the promises of freedom from the consequences of sin are found (although I'm glad it at least says there will be consequences in this world.) There is so much to study and ponder here. I don't have solid answers about sealing and exaltation. It might all be completely wrong, but personally I'm not ready to throw it all out yet. Especially since it really disproves polygamy on a whole new level. But I am very open to learning more.

[@tamimoncrief2264]

The Bible says there's no marriage in heaven. End of story.

[@MichelleBStone]

So what do you think that means? Do you believe associations with loved ones will continue beyond the grave?

[@JakobPGrau]

No, not end of story. They neither marry nor are given in marriage. That is very different from the question of whether marriage exists there. The reason they neither marriage nor are given in marriage is that marriage must be done here, either in the mortal body or vicariously.

[@lisa143justin]

@@JakobPGrau What about people who desperately wanted to get married in this life but were never able to, for whatever reason? I can't imagine a loving God not giving someone the opportunity to get married in the next life.

[@ekh1821]

@132problems, hey Michelle, I haven't made it all the way through your videos, so forgive me if this us in another one and you've already addressed it, but do you know the history of section 131? It is my understanding that 132 and 110 both have messy histories that call into question their legitimacy. But what about section 131 that introduces the eternal couple idea and had similar wording as 132? The new and everlasting covenant, sealing etc.

[@boysrus61]

This video is very timely for me as I have been thinking A LOT lately about families in the eternities. BUT, what has been going thru my mind is that if the church teaches that we may become as God is some day, then that would suggest that we also have grandparents in heaven. So If my parents have become Gods in the next world and have gone on to create and live on their own world, And my husbands parents have become Gods in the next world and have gone on to create a world of their own, which world do my husband and I go "live" on when we die? But if we are exalted we would create our own world and not live with our family on either? Phew, didn't have to choose which parents to live with... And if we don't become exalted, are we to stay with our current Heavenly Father's after world and not be together as a family with our earthly family parents or children? These are the things I'm thinking about.

[@MichelleBStone]

So interesting! It gives "failure to launch" a whole new meaning! LOL

[@defythegrid9577]

So is the doctrine of exaltation false since it adds on to the doctrine of Christ? I've noticed that it only shows up around the polygamy topic.

[@nycmermaid3158]

God is love and only love. Judgement is not of God and you do not deserve it.!

[@rationalnuggets9617]

I don’t understand what you found offensive about that quote from woman’s conference. I’m curious , do you believe in saving ordinances?

[@pibalo9185]

It must be those rated R movies you are watching that led you to start questioning the brethren. (I say this very respectfully and with much sarcasm)

[@MichelleBStone]

@@pibalo9185 😂

[@stevenhenderson9005]

Our salvation is based on our records in the LDS Church. If you are obedient to the principles and ordinances of the gospel and live a life of righteousness, upholding to the covenants you made in the temple, then you will receive exaltation and eternal life, unless your name has been removed from the church. If you have your name removed from the Church, then you are still welcome to attend church every Sunday, partake of the sacrament, continue in righteousness, however all your saving ordinances are revoked, including your Celestial Marriage and you are doomed to the lowest kingdom (Telestrial) for all eternity, with murders and the most evil people on earth. As Brigham young said: "Suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, "shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?" All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant." -A Discourse by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 8, 1857. 7 months later over 120 innocent men, women, and children were shot killed and had their throats cut at the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

[@MichelleBStone]

Not quite sure how to respond here. Clearly this remark is ironic/sarcastic. I'm not sure where you stand in regard to the LDS Church -- former member, never Mormon, active? I'm genuinely curious. And yes, there are some absolutely awful Brigham Young quotes. Some really good ones, but plenty of horrible ones as well. No doubt about that.

[@Schtroumpsolis]

scripture says they CANT ,it doesnt say GOD will not let them or apostles ,angels wont let them !

[@ericwchristensen]

Hi Michelle, Thank you for your great work. I was hoping against hope from the title, that this episode would have substantive references from Joseph Smith, un-effected from the revisionists in the post J.S. era, that would establish some credibility to eternal marriage / sealings, (similar to baptism for the dead, in temples?). Yours and others presentations have rendered everything Brigham Young touched or produced substantially, if not entirely, discredited. This would include most significantly for us these days, Section 132, its origin, and the endowment ceremony. Your presentation had no references to eternal marriage / sealing, as we LDS understand it, other than the first part of 132, which has lost credibility, and, your good personal experience to feel part of 132 has some level of substance. In contrast, your references and conclusions that our current temple sealings are of no real significance are profound and would cause one to add that part of temple work that is so dear to so many to the discredited pile, along with the endowment. What am I missing, or, have you come to be aware of any substantive references in the time since this video was made?

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you for the great question. I have learned a lot since this episode, and have known for quite a while that I needed to do a second episode on this topic. There is extremely strong evidence that Joseph Smith did teach eternal marriage. But his teachings have little to do with how they were corrupted in polygamy. I talk about it to some extent in the Expositor episodes (I can't remember for sure which one.) But I do think a full episode on eternal marriage would be a very good idea.

[@alechenson6577]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 New King James Version The Comfort of Christ’s Coming 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [a]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [b]sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [c]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Been interested to watch a few of your videos, thanks for you openness and honesty. Saw the video on LGBT with your daughters also, and was impressed how open and comfortable you all were together despite everything. Am a Christian myself, but am interested to learn about Mormonism. A great uncle of mine is a LDS bishop, and I will often debate with my Dad that Mormons are not Christian due to the difference in belief in nature of Christ. Christians believing in an eternal Jesus Christ, only Son of God begotten not-created (not Satans brother, or an angel - but instead fully God). (Feel free to correct me if you think we believe in the same Jesus!) From the Bible alone it is clear we are all one body in Christ, and those who die in Christ are raised with him. Other family units, and earthly bonds may be temporary (those based on flesh and blood), but we have been adopted into a new family - when we get born again. For eternal marriage - many Christians believe we are betrothed to Christ and will be the bride of Christ. Christ and the Church, the mystery Paul refers to. Interesting, as that may sound polygamous to an outsider! I would rather imagine that this is a oneness of Spirit, our spirits and the Holy Spirit forever together. I, personally, do not think that the passage with the Sadducees rules out 1-1 man&woman unions in eternity/the millennium, only it says marriage will not be like on earth, and that we will be like the angels. Its possible that when Jesus said they were in error because they did not know the scriptures that he was including the book of Enoch in his definition of scripture (Enoch is regarded canon by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and Enoch is mentioned by Jude) as this mentions angels and gives more detail. But even if Enoch is not scripture - it seems there is space to say that angels are sexually able (as they slept with women see Genesis 6), and therefore may well have unions but not quite the same as marriage. Remember, marriage by biblical definition ends in death, but when we are eternal - we won't die - so any union would need new terminology.

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you for sharing. So much to think about!

[@gracegiven8875]

It’s interesting to me that you base your personal beliefs on what you can find that the prophet Joseph Smith taught. But yet if something is uncomfortable to you that he taught you say it was just man speaking. I’m so sorry for your losses. You are teaching a great deal of people on this platform. Joseph Smith found out by asking about his deceased broth Alvin that Alvin was in the celestial Kingdom. That confused him because Alvin died before he could receive all the laws. And shod taught him the principles of work for the dead. You also can know that there are many degrees of Glory which by default separates people. That would actually separate God the Father from some of His own children. I asked God once why death hurts so much. I was given to understand that if it didn’t we wouldn’t fear the second death which is the separation of ourselves from God. So yes if your religion is true than we believe in separation from loved ones for what will feel like eternity. But since we KNOW we can do the work for our dead to redeem them, do we not also believe that we through our faith cannot pray for those in other kingdoms to accept the gospel and be restored to Gods presence? Do you think God doesn’t feel the same losses for his lost children as you do? And yet he says they are lost which is a separation. It is a principle God himself stands by. So if we go into a state of apostasy we MUST fear the loss of our loved ones and that should drive us to stay faithful. And if we are isolated from them due to apostasy the. We will surely be able to repent there as well as here and be restored to them.

[@roxannejoganik3466]

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS TYLER DIVISION ROXANNE JOGANIK § § Plaintiff, § § vs. § Civ. A. No. 6:19-cv-517 § EAST TEXAS MEDICAL CENTER § and OLYMPIC SWIMMING POOL, § § Defendant. § DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO APPOINT MEDIATOR Defendant Rehabilitation Hospital, LLC d/b/a UT Health East Texas (“Defendant”) (improperly named by Plaintiff as both “East Texas Medical Center” and “Olympic Swimming Pool”) hereby ask the Court to appoint a mediator to mediate this case virtually. Accordingly, Defendant respectfully request that the Court appoint either U.S. Magistrate Judge John D. Love

[@rationalnuggets9617]

The more of this episode I watch the more your arguments appear to have devolved into justification. The arguments you are making ignore the vicarious nature of the work being done in the temples.

[@Lookatmedonnad]

@132problems, What do you think about Lori Vallow Daybell being tried for murdering her children for religious purposes.

[@sdfotodude]

If you are wrong, as I am sure you are, then you are further victimizing a 14-year-old child who was spiritually raped by a 37-year-old married man whom she considered a Prophet. Helen Mar Kimball's diaries are available. Just because YOU feel emotionally traumatized by polygamy, stop defending Joseph's practice of it.

[@MichelleBStone]

I just spoke at some length about Helen in my most recent episode. I hope you will watch it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4KyoKljZbiCa5I

[@sdfotodude]

@@MichelleBStone Helen spoke for herself just fine. She doesn't need you piling on and protecting her abuser

[@MichelleBStone]

@@sdfotodude you have the wrong subject. You accuse me of bias and motivated reasoning -- I think you should study projection.

[@sdfotodude]

@@MichelleBStone No, I'm pointing out that your CogDis has taken over your beliefs to the point your confirmation bias and lust for attention and validation, have clouded your reality that your church is morally corrupt. But just like Hannah Stoddard or Rod Meldrum, you have Profits on your mind.

[@sdfotodude]

@@MichelleBStone I am a Never Mo. You have far more bias than I do. It's not my fault YOUR church practiced polygamy. If it offends you so much, why are you still a member? It is still their Doctrine and they are the one's "Lying" you in the GTE's.

[@jackiechoate6163]

132 v 19-20 even though it's talking about one man, one woman, it is still problematic. The new and everlasting covenant has to do with baptism, not marriage. It has been redefined in 132. Exaltation is another term that you can't find in the scriptures in the way the church uses it. We can receive the Holy Spirit of Promise through the 3 part baptism. If a man and woman married receive the 3 part baptism individually, then maybe they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise? I wonder if an additional ordinance(sealing) is really necessary after their initial marriage to each other. I have heard family talk about families and the after life. Some say the celestial people will be able to visit family in other kingdoms. Sort of like how not everyone can go to the temple if their not worthy, but you can meet them at their house. I've heard some say the degrees of glory aren't separated by geographical location per se but it is a state of being. So many variations. But you are right that there are no scriptures that mention children being sealed to us. I guess church leaders figured, God put us in families on earth, so it must be the same in heaven. I believe the history of sealings had to do with the law of adoption, and people being sealed to Joseph Smith as a dispensation prophet. I believe people(especially men) were sealed to Brigham Young. It was like if you were sealed to a prophet/president, your station in heaven would be better. I forget which president decided to just make it family sealings. Have you heard of the idea of composite beings? It's crazy to think about, but I'm open to the idea. Anyways, here is an article on the history of the Shakers in regards to Joseph Smith's dealing with them(section 49), marriage, and the idea of composite beings. The comment section has some good discussion in it as well. Since I can't post a url link, you will have to fix the dot com part of the url to copy paste. I hope you will take a look. It's fascinating. onewhoiswatching.wordpress(dot)com/2010/08/09/celibacy-the-doctrine-of-marriage-the-shaker-connection/