2010: Famed brothers debate need for God

Christopher and Peter Hitchens square off at a 2010 Pew Forum event to debate if civilization can survive without God.

[@kasrkin3521]

Call me dumb but I think Hitchens has a point.

[@John-oq6fe]

Which one? Or both?

[@kasrkin3521]

@@John-oq6fe Hitchens

[@James-fb7el]

No, i think Hitchens has better point.

[@TheG7thcapo]

Mr Hitchens won the debate. No question.

[@antwidominic9874]

😎😎

[@CharlieQuartz]

We really needed to hear Christoper's response to Peter's last point. I'm sure he would have gotten quite upset at his brother's insinuation that morality stems from religion.

[@uyuyuy99]

Yes, and Peter's conflation of morality itself evolving versus our perception of it. When people say "morality" evolves, what they really mean is that our perception and understanding of morality evolves. That makes all the difference in the world.

[@dobbs3096]

@@uyuyuy99 Who gets to be the arbiter of how best to understand/perceive what true morality is? If actual morality is a constant, then who has the right to set the standard of correct interpretation? So in many ways we still sit with the same problem. How can we be sure that our understanding of morality is evolving in the right direction?

[@uyuyuy99]

@@dobbs3096 Everyone gets to be the arbiter of that for themselves. This is not an ideal system, but it's just how the world works. Humans will always disagree with each other on what is moral and immoral. So, unfortunately, we have no way of knowing for 100% certain if our morality is evolving in the right direction. We simply haven to do the best we can.

[@uyuyuy99]

​ William Hill Try improving your reading comprehension instead of jamming delusional Marxist psychobabble down my throat, as if it's anything close to what i believe

[@jaspalchanna4025]

It does though. A moral compass cannot be created by objective facts alone. Value systems are needed.

[@Homo_sAPEien]

Funny how he talks about suspecting that people will make up that he converted before death. Just today, I saw someone claiming that he did convert before death, I shit u not.

[@Homo_sAPEien]

Peter says that evolution can’t be relied on for morality. Correct, it cannot. But, people have no choice but, to follow their instincts, so long as nothing is motivating them to resist them. And, people will have no motivation to resist them, once they realize that there is no good and bad. And, part of what most people’s instincts tell them to do is to survive, protect children, and not unnecessarily injure other people. The fact that people, like Peter, are afraid that there’s no reason to do these things if there is no god, demonstrates that these instincts exist in most people. After all, why be afraid of the idea that no good and bad exist, if you don’t have instincts telling you to do certain things? Even if good and bad did exist, nobody would have to care. So, it ultimately all comes back to instinct. And, there’s evolutionary reason for all of these instincts.

[@rodomolina7995]

Beautifully explained

[@ihrv23]

Audio - I can’t show this to anyone unless asking them to be silent for the whole duration

[@joshuaWEC]

"Christopher! He said the thing we don't like, he said we need religion to be moral. Help us Christopher! Scold your brother for us!"

[@sunofsotep8265]

😂...they do love that one don't they.

[@TaiwanLife2024]

but I think he already scold him enough in childhood that's how they reached to this point I guess

[@krismargett]

"...there are a lot of things I would do if i didn't believe in God" - Peter Hitchens

[@TaiwanLife2024]

but how you decided that these lot of things are wrong and one should not pursue them

[@bradleypease2492]

@@TaiwanLife2024 not by religion

[@pgchris87]

@@notWaldont from brains.

[@maciejcholewa3796]

@@notWaldont from evolution. How every so owl species have morality? Simple morality evolved as evolved every species. Those who didn't have basic morality died.

[@tme98]

We have reason, without our inner reason there would be up to nature itself. He can’t act immoral simply because «he can» as that would reject reason in man.

[@Homo_sAPEien]

Peter says that atheists have failed to explain consciousness. So, have religious people so, what’s his point then?

[@histeria2020]

couldn't hear half of it

[@elainejohnson6955]

Where is the rest of this?!?

[@ransomcoates546]

Strange that Christopher seems to have thought that an absolute Commandment makes moral theology - which is precisely what he was doing in his remarks - unnecessary.

[@anthropologyvault5657]

RIP, but seriously, look at the comments.

[@nicholasclinch1104]

My knowledge on geography is pretty terrible, but doesn't the magnetic north pole actually flip every 10/100 thousand years or so?

[@Elhardt]

Yes, the magnetic pole flips. But what does that have to do with Peter's point? Nothing. It hasn't flipped since the compass was invented. And when it does in the future, our compasses will have a new magnetic direction. It won't go to zero.

[@bobwill712]

I’m an atheist and it creeps me out when people say they would do a lot of things different if they were no God. If that is the case maybe, it is smart for those people to thump the Bible. Someone please answer this, why do some religious people actually think morality is because of religion?

[@joemilburn2260]

Because they have none without it

[@GodSavedMeToo]

The argument is not that atheists like yourself cannot be moral. In fact, there may very well be many atheists that are more moral than many religious people. The argument is that without what you call religion (i would say without the Biblical God), you couldn't explain morality. Whatever you call moral is simply your opinion. Why is person A's view that killing someone is wrong to be valued higher than person B's view that killing them is right? After all, we are all accidents that are simply acting out the chemistry in us. However, if there is an absolute moral law giver, then person B's view can be judged against the moral giver's rule/law about what killing another person amounts to.

[@danielreiman4446]

@@GodSavedMeToo 100% right I was going to say the same there must be absolute truth in morality or its just opinion and how can we all feel the same on issues some people don't mind stealing from Walmart cause its a huge company and others nevr would steal cause they think its wrong while another might be fine stealing from their own mother

[@medwolf24able]

Well I agree that people would do things differently if they didn't believe in God hopefully they'd be a little bit better at being a human being

[@lewiscudd]

I agree with Peter on this. If I were not to believe in God, I would do things that I believed were wrong that were beneficial to me, but I would train my conscience (or try to) to ignore any guilt I felt. I would simply recognise that guilt would be a side effect of living and learning in a Christian moral society, and as I would not believe in God, I would not need to worry about any true consequence to my actions. Therefore I would be able to behave in any way that I would want to, so long as it would not result in a consequence that was worse than the action itself, as that would make the action worthless.

[@Stewnat7299]

The funny thing is that the magnetic north does indeed shift a little all the time

[@mshepherd324]

has peter ever heard his brothers speeches..... like EVER?

[@louisleycuras8357]

yes. he himself was an atheist when he was younger. they happen to be brothers.

[@henryrogers5500]

Christopher Hitchens’ speeches only amount to a big hot steamy pile of babbling nonsense that have no facts to support his inane opinions.

[@BrettCagwin49ers]

So you need God, a god, or even another person to tell you not to step on someone's hand (who as far as you know is an innocent decent person) who is clinging to a ledge? You need outside advice to tell you maybe you should not injure them further or maybe, you know grab them by the wrist and hoist them out of danger's way if you know you possess the strength to do that. Is that not just an attitude everyone should get up with in the morning? We have a society and it's in everyone's ultimate good fortune if we treat each other with respect. I can't outfight a lion that's hunting me by myself but if I find 50 people and we decide how to approach it together we might have a chance. Where was God needed again?

[@RocketKirchner]

steve , great question - God is needed exactly how to teach us HOW to love . this is all inner stuff . the Greeks asked why , but Galileo asked how .

[@BrettCagwin49ers]

@@RocketKirchner There is no god that exists that needs to teach me how to love my brothers and sisters or family in general. I do it on my own just fine. There is no god that needs to teach me The Golden Rule, treat other people how you would like to be treated. This is what we call "common human decency."

[@almostafa4725]

@@BrettCagwin49ers How did you decide what is wrong and right? You’re just socially conditioned

[@aerka0s760]

@@almostafa4725 Yes, society composed by human decide what moral is. And there is nothing else doing it for us, not God or anything, and if you tell me that I am wrong and God say to us what is right and wrong, then prove to me that God exist AND that he is giving us anything about right and wrong. But you cannot prove it, because why the fuck would a creature beyond understanding, care about right and wrong and teach us anything about that, if it is this better and superior to us you cannot tell what it really do or want. Humans are only projecting things onto something "greater" than themselves to feel better and justify things.

[@zgoodt]

What stops a human from killing another?

[@cryptoguy3196]

A large percentage of the world's populace have been and will be growing up on it. So.....

[@Homo_sAPEien]

Funny how people are so die hard about identifying as atheist to the grave. Also how people have symbols made for being an atheist. I identify as an atheist because, I can and because, I see no proof of any god but, I don’t really take being an atheist to seriously.

[@xryanv]

The purpose of the commandments were not to limit man but to reveal God. It's suppose to illustrate who God is, that is why it came along with the animal sacrifice and later a messiah the point is that with the shedding of blood comes forgiveness. This is illustrated through Davids life where in relationship with God he actually transgresses the law and yet is not punished as others were. Love is the fulfillment of the law, God is the fulfillment of the law, knowing God is the purpose. You could also say knowing love is the purpose, God and love are synonymous in the bible.

[@xryanv]

@@Midnightmidway God loves people, it is true that there is evil in the world and horrible things happen on account of the freedom God has given man. It's hard for the created to Judge the actions of their creator. However God coming in the flesh and dying for all man kind, showing by life and death the nature and character of God clarifies that which is hard to understand.

[@TheTyke]

God is/was against Animal sacrifice as evidenced by the words and actions of Jesus. We shouldn't consider Animal sacrifice an aspect of God's will considering how harshly it was condemned and how evidently immoral it is. The sacrifice of Jesus shows us it is self sacrifice, selflessness that is the sacrifice that is Godly and good, not sacrificing others.

[@xryanv]

@@TheTyke That isn't the point I was making. I wasn't trying to say there was something inherently good about killing animals. It was mandated as a ritual to be an illustration or kind of teaching in a metaphorical sense about the destructive nature of sin in contrast to the creative uplifting nature of God/love as it is later personified in Christ. However God did command animal sacrifice in the bible. I don't think God wants animals to die or anything but everything on the earth was created for his children (humans) and their use.

[@TheTyke]

God did not command Animal sacrifice, Lucifer/the Demiurge did. Hence why Jesus was against it. Similarly we have a covenant with all life on Earth akin to God's convenant with us. It is a covenant of care and custodianship, not exploitation and harm. The idea we have dominion over Animals in the sense of we can or should do what we want to them is wrong. God has dominion in the sense he is the actuality that objective morality relies on. But his relationship with us is within the covenant of care and guardianship. Same with our relationship to Animals. Care for them, don't eat them, don't kill them. Our position is to help all life on Earth, not use it for our own convenience.@@xryanv

[@xryanv]

@@TheTyke Interesting, you have some wrong understandings as far as biblical interpretation goes.

[@JCPoetryCourner]

uploaded the day after his death. wow.

[@user-tg4yc5qe1k]

Relativism is the confusion of psychologies, of it's limitation as the conditioning of consciousness...

[@cole141000]

Yeah, 2:08 makes plenty of sense.

[@stevesand8845]

Peter Hitchens blew up at Alex O’Conner because after he wrote a book about drugs, and Alex had him on to speak about drugs…. Alex dared to ask him about his views on drugs…. and Peter threw a temper tantrum… I only wish that Christopher believed in God, cause he would have been the one to live longer..

[@m.cproductions3671]

I wonder which one of them is actually right?

[@ScottMannion]

2010 me. Christopher. Me now: Peter, quite clearly.

[@chakib7318]

peter

[@reeseexplains8935]

Christopher

[@noahriver5946]

@@ScottMannion What made you change your mind?

[@reeseexplains8935]

@@ScottMannion so Christopher is the person who made you an atheist?

[@RocketKirchner]

the thing that christopher never understood is that the gospel is not about law but love and good news. it seemed to allude him . perplex him . that is what all paradox does - seeks to discombobulate linear thought and assumption .

[@constantinobanda961]

yesterday beatles

[@seanpeters3690]

Well, Christopher Hitchens sure knows if there's a God now.

[@joeydoherty368]

Sean Peters Only if there is one. If there isn’t, he still doesn’t know.

[@alanwilson4860]

Hmmm I think there is a massive elephant in the room with your comment.

[@tr-labs8699]

The problem is he can't warn others how bad it is in HELL!

[@declaytor]

@@joeydoherty368 he knows now.

[@joeydoherty368]

TR- Labs Well apparently hell is pretty nice cause so many people choose to go there.

[@ahuviatah2866]

No atheist has any opinion that takes out THE ETERNAL CREATOR from The Existence and Reality. No matter how many studies they have. They will always still moral principles from the religions created from The Bible when is convenient for them, and then say it's because evolution😒

[@muchanadziko6378]

Moral principles haven't originated in the bible. Don't kill, don't lie, don't steal are not principles invented by jews in 700BC

[@leninswalrus]

You can know the bible and you can know grammar. You cannot know both.

[@muchanadziko6378]

@@leninswalrus I love you

[@highjim7778]

Imagine being a grown adult who still has an imaginary friend. YOU LITERALLY BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS

[@CROsigliere]

Wff is that last statement from Peter 🙈🙈 there is a fucking demon in your soul Peter... CLEARLY hahahahahahah "there's a lot of things i would do if I didn't think God was watching" hahahah I'm sorry but what?!?!?!

[@ecokanjukuoh4772]

You don't understand? You dont belong here only intelligent people allowed here.

[@reeseexplains8935]

And to this day, Christopher still dose not believe.

[@polishsnipez7_593]

Well he’s dead so

[@reeseexplains8935]

@@polishsnipez7_593 he doesn’t. There’s no afterlife

[@polishsnipez7_593]

@@reeseexplains8935 no shit Sherlock no one asked

[@solidus1995]

Just like a typical God fearing man, doesn't even realize the only edge on apple is security. Windows is a million times more modular. But I guess irony is always virtuous.

[@infinite1483]

He doesn't fear God, God fears him.

[@infinite1483]

@Mortified Max I was obviously refering to the collective belief of God. Not the literal God you hear in scrilture.

[@Phoenix-King-ozai]

Peter has the same old debunked points stated with the usual Hitchens pomp I was actually disappointed, but then, Christopher spoiled us all

[@danielwalley6554]

For a long time now I've found these kinds of debates small. It should be a foregone conclusion that much of the bible and religious precepts are simplistic and simply not that useful in our day and age. But to conclude that doesn't really resolve anything of any real importance. The law of our day already recognizes this fact; that's why it's not based on religious texts; therefore the issue was in a certain sense settled long ago, aside from the stragglers within the population who still cling to it. But why waste time and energy trying to convert them? It seems like a waste of the mental talents which Christopher possessed. There are much deeper and more impenetrable questions about our existence. What is consciousness. What is existence itself. How is there something rather than nothing. Is it possible to mount or build any kind of philosophical argument for how any of it fits together or could be explained. My own impression is that the answer to that might lean in the direction of NO - the existence of existence is somewhat of an impenetrable problem. And the nature of consciousness as well, when analyzed from within itself from the subjective viewpoint, also appears to pose a brick wall. And science hasn't resolved them - all it's done is moved the question further back. "It's the big bang" is not answer - it's just a deeper question of "well how and why was there a big bang"? And on and on and on. And if we can't even penetrate those most basic building blocks... if we can't even build a foundation to the intellectual and philosophical house that we're attempting to debate into being... then of what merit is all the rest of the conversation? It's all sitting on top of shifting sands. Perhaps from an inhuman perspective, such conversations look totally absurd.

[@LoisNerdyLane01]

Just graduated from law school and took the bar. I can assure you many of the laws are derived from the Bible, haha. I was surprised to see many concepts I studied appear in the Bible in some variation. It’s very fascinating actually. But, perhaps you’re referring to legislation that does not align with what religious texts purport. I just wanted to share that cool nugget though. It may be your experience and that of others in today’s society that faith in a higher power is insensible, but many do believe because it would take us more faith not to believe. Peace be the journey

[@DanYule55]

CHRISTOPHER AND PETER HITCHENS ARE BROTHERS?!?!?!?!

[@himoverthere6716]

Really bro?

[@kevinmcnamara704]

I can not understand, why him and Dawkins were so much against God etc, we know that physics has been overturned now,, I believe God made every thing, time the end etc, I don't care what people do or believe their business, a question for everyone., can something come from nothing,,,,🤔peace to everyone 🙏

[@digitaleasyaadacube2149]

God bless you man. Keep the faith strong.

[@nandnaman4781]

Well if something can't come from nothing , then how can u beleive in a uncreated god?

[@digitaleasyaadacube2149]

@@nandnaman4781 Cause the concept of God in itself just means uncreated. And God isn't something. He/It transcends that

[@nandnaman4781]

@@digitaleasyaadacube2149 well u have quite a faith to believe in being that is beyond something.But u have a problem in believing something could have emerged out of nothing

[@digitaleasyaadacube2149]

@@nandnaman4781 actually yes I do. And fyi, it takes more faith to be an atheist than to be a believer. I'ma out it in a straight line for you, see if you can walk it. Believer=God is the supreme and sovereign being from which balance and order stems from, and all is made manifest. Atheist= The universe and everything in it came from nothing with no intelligence or information behind it and developed such order all by itself, and humans and all the organisms just became what they are with no guiding force or whatever. And the funny thing is, there's no scientific proof or whatever for all of this. Just claims and pseudoscience. Religion on the other hand, Christian religionbto be exact transcends what we call "science", and goes into the mystical. Things which we see abd observe today in places across africa and the rest of the world.

[@JHarder1000]

I love it when Chris Hitchens' votaries confer a prophetic status on him which he never claimed to possess, and when they ignore the often excellent points made by his opponents. As far as I am concerned, Both Peter and Chris were geniuses; it is just that their respective intellects led them to diametrically opposed positions,.

[@yosserhughes5418]

Peter hitchens a genius? People who believe in invisible sky daddies aren’t geniuses. They’re deluded.

[@Kool__Kat]

@@yosserhughes5418 Yes I concur, much more believable that a magic explosion created all of our natural laws

[@MegaHariboboy]

There is a reason why Peter Hitchens is not held in nearly as high a regard as Christopher. A homophobe, anti-vaccine, anti-drug rehab, pro-capital punishment, a climate change denier. The man literally said that drug addiction is not chemical, its all to do with free will. He studied philosophy and politics, yet thinks its his position to critique vaccines, go against 96% of environmental scientists in the assertion that climate change is occurring, and to decide on how chemical addiction works. He is a thoroughly, thoroughly reprehensible human, who in all interviews comes across as a miserable, bigoted man.

[@Randomstuffs261]

Lol Peter is not a genius, he had a literal toddler tantrum after being asked basic questions by a man 50 years younger than him a few days ago

[@michael_leclezio]

"there's a lot of things that I would do if I didn't believe in God". How weak and despicable.

[@joemama6557]

Why is doing anything that you deem to be harmful "wrong"?

[@michael_leclezio]

@@joemama6557 you're avoiding doing bad things for fear of being punished by an authority, as opposed to avoiding doing them simply because they are wrong. that means you don't have enough judgement, empathy and strength to understand right from wrong and avoid doing the wrong based on these. you are dangerous.

[@joemama6557]

@@michael_leclezio So you can't answer my question. What a rational person you must be.

[@michael_leclezio]

@@joemama6557 didn't I answer? Another answer could be the golden rule, which is not inherently Christian/ biblical: do not do to others what you don't want to be done to you. Better?

[@MizzouRah78]

What a shame. Peter seems far too intelligent to make such nonsensical points.

[@TheTREEHOUSE18]

An eternity without God is not something you want

[@JONNYC1943]

Its something well never have to experience. Blink and gone. Peace just like in Christianity

[@biglebowski7904]

I dont think you could want anything for an eternity, which makes death so contradictory. Life is so precious because it's short and has an end, but also quite pointless as we all will die eventually.

[@TheTREEHOUSE18]

@@biglebowski7904 eternity is a long time to be wrong. Jesus said 'I am the way the truth and life." The only way in is through Jesus and if you leave life without knowing Him you got no hope in getting into heaven.The wages of sin is death. This is why our bodies are dying and we all sin and need a SAVIOUR. To believe that there is nothing means you have your fingers in your ears to the call of God to repent and trust in JESUS. How long will man harden their hearts towards Him.Jesus loves us true but He's also our judge. It is appointed once for a man to die and after the judgement.

[@TheTREEHOUSE18]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJerdpeigbx6p6M

[@Tenz220]

@@TheTREEHOUSE18 sorry I believe in Buddhism am I bound to hell?

[@hebera.carrillo2049]

No.. You do not need religion to be moral.

[@TaiwanLife2024]

Then how we do decide our moral values. Science doesn't tell us what is right or wrong, it merely able to explain materialistic things and still didn't come terms with consciousnesses . By scanning the brain we may assign different emotions and actions to different part of brain but still we don't have answer to question that why it's happening after all.

[@firingallcylinders2949]

You're right, you don't need religion to be moral. You just can't justify why something is right or wrong in a naturalist worldview.

[@Vetonajdini1]

@@firingallcylinders2949 I will attempt to go a step forward and suggest that you could justify it within a naturalist worldview. Many, if not all of the moral principles we know are objectively helpful, and likely crucial for the survival of the tribe (society) we live in. Since we are a social species, and have evolved as such, those moral principles could be engraved into ourselves through the process of evolution. The survival of a tribe also means the survival of its individual members, so therefore those moral principles are, maybe in a more indirect way, helpful selfishly, as well.

[@michaelmoody935]

The geomagnetic field has and will again flip. What you now think of north will become “south”. And it will one day flip again. Besides a magnetic force can be tested and proven. A personal god can’t. And doing the right thing when somebody IS looking (like God) isn’t morality. But as an atheist, doing the right thing, when in REALITY, nobody is looking IS mortality. It’s also called personal responsibility.

[@bobwill712]

As soon as he mentioned the compass 🧭 not moving I thought the same thing. Lol Isn’t creepy when you hear religious people say they would act differently if they didn’t think god was looking?? Creepy. I envision that they all want to be a bunch of rapists

[@almostafa4725]

Who decided what’s the right thing?

[@almostafa4725]

@@bobwill712 you’re a weirdo lol

[@michaelmoody935]

@@almostafa4725 humanity

[@tusi1390]

Oh..An atheist who advocated Iraq war and military interventionism in other countries ..

[@trollobite1629]

Yeah but not as bad as a those commands in religious texts advocating killing in the name of god.

[@mapk1516]

@@trollobite1629 and what about the millions that died because of atheist communist regimes during the cold war. We can play this whataboutism game for as long as we want.

[@joemama6557]

@@trollobite1629 What texts are you talking about?

[@OGunsalus]

This is hilarious. Like hitchens vs religous hitcchens lite. Seems pretty obvious chris is just smarter more well thought out and his brother just thinks hes on equal footing

[@ShadowZZZ]

That last statement by Peter Hitchens: "[...] and there are a lots of things I woundn't do without religion" is striking. If the belief in an all supervising big brother, a 24/7 invisible camera in the sky, or the fear of not burning for eternity or aspiring eternal bliss afterwards is what makes you behave so called "morally" then you're not honestly moral. As the enlightenment thinker Immanuel Kant put it, it's the well-intention that counts, acting out of moral duty, preferably against one owns subjective tendencies that counts. His categorical imperative as well as benthams utilitarianism are great ethical justifications without mythology. Infact there is a field of study for that, called _Ethics_ in philosophy which discusses morality without god. Even if morality should come from scripture, then there are the problems that it is also merely written by humans, that there are many contradicting scpritures and that many scriptures condone backwards values like mysoginy, theocracy, slavery, stoning homosexuals and killing heretics. Peter seems not to understand his wiser brother

[@jellophant9716]

It's been 2 years, hopefully you've had time to go back and read Critique or Religions within the Bound of bare Reason and realize that god and religious thought are necessary for the categorical imperative and moral truths. Ethics is also not a subfield that studies morality without god, it studies both morality with god and without.

[@LDP00011]

Peter's whistling while speaking is what's absurd.

[@OGunsalus]

I feel like i understand why theists hate hitchens now. They hear him the way i hear his brother. Just wrong abt everything and as pompus as they come. At least chris has logic and reason on his side tho

[@vjab1108]

FREE TOMMY ROBINSON.

[@Leo413Page]

vjab1108 I just did, it was steaming and took too flushes.

[@lukeblackman66]

Wtf