2017 GSX-R1000 S2B: Episode 7 (Part 1) - ECU Flashing (Quick Shifter & Ignition Timing vs. Octane)

[@monsterniceguy9840]

I love watching this kinda of stuff Brock. This series has been very informative. I swapped out the air filter from K&N to a Sprint race filter, ordered the Alisyn oil and Petron from you, changed the oil, and my 2017 ZX10RR picked up 5 whp. 194 to 199 and I picked up 3 trq from 83 to 86. Can’t wait for the next episode. 👍🏼

[@BrockDavidson]

MonsterNiceGuy we could sell something that doesn't work, but that would be deceitful. We give you the facts, offer what we know works, and let you decide for yourself. Thank you for your input!

[@jryer1]

@Monster - Wow, that's very revealing. For filter and less viscous oil alone to yield those gains is impressive.

[@kawicepticon8866]

would you run Alisyn oil in a Pani V4?

[@BrockDavidson]

We would use the MFG's suggested oil, purchased from your dealer.

[@elgar6743]

Thanks Brock...really enjoyed this video and your presentation of sometimes rather dry technical topics, but you always make it interesting and the video's 25 mins felt like 5 mins. Great job Brock!

[@SillySatire]

As an armchair tuner myself and not racing, I'm focused on smoothing things out from over run to winding it back on. Most modern bikes are horrible for quick riding when stock. Great videos dude.

[@BrockDavidson]

We will have a new video dropping soon that discusses removal of harsh throttle openings as well as sharpening them up to improve overall responsiveness of the engine.

[@64faffi]

Discovered your channel when you started the Gixxer series and instantly subscribed (I only subscribe to 4 other channels), then went on to watch all of your earlier videos. And I have enjoyed every one of them! You have a way of explaining stuff that makes your videos both entertaining and educational. Thanks! Eirik, Norway

[@chriswade3986]

It’s awesome to watch you work . You are smart and you are on point with making sure you have the same variables . I have said it before I wish I lived closer to your shop . Thank you for everything. You are definitely a legend.

[@racebikefan]

Like many haven't stopped watching till I got square eyes! Loving the the honesty and also the lengths you go to with the mini-side tests and the myth busters throughout the series! So interesting and informative, thank you!

[@BrockDavidson]

@Racebike Fan - glad you like our vids.-BD

[@krishchandran6819]

Brock great video. Please dont leave us Speed addicts waiting for a video too long... i need my dose of Brock's Performance videos to keep me sane!!! Like seriously

[@thunderbirdstsa6013]

Brock is the best Phd in Stupid fast subject I have ever been lectured from

[@jhgsxr]

Def solidified my choice to run 89 octane before I go to the dyno. These videos are crazy informative. Make me wanna switch careers LOL

[@jeremybly]

Back watching your vids again. I've seen them all about 5 or 6 times. Live this build series.

[@BrockDavidson]

Wow, thanks!

[@apexhunter2k]

Dr.Brock is back! Sweet work.

[@jryer1]

@Brock - Spot on with the chain tension on this bike. I have the exact same experience. Chain tension not exceeding 1 chain link's height (0.675" to 0.75") usually makes for crisp shifting, including clutch-less downshifting. True that rear suspension travel will be slightly more limited, but that small trade-off on the street is not noticeable. Impressed with the MR-12, wow nice.

[@cfhmachado]

Such thorough tuning! I really appreciate all the effort that goes into this !

[@jryer1]

@Brock - Liking the new website. I would recommend however, when a customer is on a full exhaust page, say for instance the Predator Full System for the GSX-R1000 (17-18), add your Brock ECU Flash & Power Commander links just below your links for "Click here to view Installation Instructions" & "Click here to view PAIR Block-Off Instructions." The reason I say that is because it took me a while to realize they're under Engine & Clutch. To the un-initiated they may not know there's a relationship between the two. The reason I found it was because while on the exhaust page, I clicked the "Customers Also Viewed" tab at the bottom of the page. And I was intentionally trying to find these components.

[@BrockDavidson]

Getis, we are working on it. Until then, you can use the search function and then select the appropriate check box to discover items.

[@MendezMorte]

A lot of respect from this guy to make this kind of video, Mabuhay Watching from Philippines

[@KSIXRIDER]

Thanks Brock. Really appreciate you laying out the ignition timing test like you did.

[@BrockDavidson]

Glad you like. Our test structure makes for more work, but we believe it helps eliminate mistakes... and doubt.

[@AdrianSinner97]

Regarding the proper chain adjustment. This kind if tightness only works fro drag, but if you go road racing, there is a necessary slack in the chain in order for the suspension to work 'fully' otherwise will prevent it to fully 'extend' when necessary - common mistake i many saw encountered with rookies on the race track. Great vid, KUDOS for the work.

[@BrockDavidson]

How much does suspension function matter when your bike doesn't shift? Additionally, under acceleration - more slack is created in the chain - so suspension function is not affected. Under hard braking, the rear suspension function is not nearly as important as the front...with the exception of wheel hop control, which is managed by the clutch set-up.

[@AdrianSinner97]

@@BrockDavidson agree on this, i do reffer on that matter of a small slack, usually i m measuring by inserting a screwdriver in between the sproket and chain, and proved to be the best 'spacer' tool since years. :)) Great work you lads with all the things u're achieving. keep up

[@jeremybly]

Also love all the experiments you do to show us and not just tell us.

[@TheMetalmechanic]

Brock, in one of these videos, you commented that bikes with Quick shift / Auto Blip, the chain should have a little less slack than OEM reccomended. Are you referring to bikes with drag set up? Lowered, strapped, links. Or street set up too. I have a 2017 ZX 10RR.. The KQSHIFT, is good but not perfect.. Sometimes it is my technique, or rigging of the levers and adjustments. But i have more slack in the chain at someones recommendation. I believe your research and development has proven to be valuable. I understand Tuning alot more now. MY concern is to allow for suspension travel. I am mostly street / canyon riding...Thanks

[@BrockDavidson]

This is for all bikes that depend on an engine kill to cut the engine. Quickshifters/air shifters etc. street/track/drag/LSR/canyons... doesn't matter. The difficult item for some to understand is that MORE slack is created in today's sportbikes (under acceleration) due to the increasingly aggressive swingarm attack angles. This leads to additional slack in the drive chain, which can cause missed shifts. An increase in kill time can help this, but slightly increased chain tension will cure most issues without slowing the shift down.

[@BrockDavidson]

Also, check the long description in our vids, the time stamps help you quickly find a particular area in the video. 4:45 is where chain tension begins in this video.

[@XxCrazedEvolutionXx]

Brock everyone wants this bike to beat a brentuning S1000RR!!

[@michaelcooper2141]

Awesome work. Thank you for taking the time out to do this for us.

[@michaelovitch]

Uneven Ignition maps on cylinders ? Because of temperature differences,or because they try to create unsynchronised firing sequences for torque benefits,like on a crossplane ?

[@BrockDavidson]

Each cylinder requires slightly different ignition timing for maximum performance under varying conditions.

[@michaelovitch]

I know that. But why ? ,just for temps uneven cooling,uneven intake charge like on all engines,or something special here ? Thanks for the answer.

[@BrockDavidson]

There are multiple factors at work. Each cylinder heats/cools at a slightly different rate. Additionally, since this is a dynamic application, flow per cylinder, component stretch/flex at high RPM and a host of other items can cause the pressures in the cylinders to differ. There are also BMEP (Brake mean Effective Pressures) calculations being taken into account to optimize volumetric efficiency.

[@michaelovitch]

Thank you. Nice videos. I wish i could do what you do,or at least something like that. Using his own brain to do something you appreciate is pretty cool. Greets from France.

[@jackdaniels-uq7hp]

Hi there, Verry good explanation I have learnd a lot. And a grate plus: He rely is funny , noddy, a big man who in his hart still has a big child. And ofcourse a real expert in tuning. Greatings from Holland ! And take care in these strange (virus) times.

[@eerr-m1k]

The best series about motorcycle tuning!! Especialy for those "couch tuners" as Brock sad :) Can't wait for next episodes!! And Brock by him self is very nice person :) You coud do some TV show about motor sport, tuning and etc. :D

I noted something, with oem timing exhoust spit flames at rev limit, with advanced timing don't.

[@LambChopRides]

Added 4 degrees of ignition timing on my 1290R superduke, gave me an extra 5 BHP peak! Video on my channel of the dyno time

[@SousukeAizen421]

that's exactly what he meant when he said suzuki already maximized their ignition timing unlike other manufacturer which for some reason restricted it, the good thing is you can play with the ignition timing and can get a few bhp out of your bike which is a great satisfaction for me

[@jeremybly]

Love your vids! It's they always answer questions that i have. Thanks for the great work Brock

[@DearMajesty]

Brock, isn't it well known that having a chain too tight inhibits suspension action, which is crucial in road-racing....not to mention wears out your chain far faster. Look at the MotoGP bikes...they still have plenty of slack in the chain

[@BrockDavidson]

No one is suggesting you run your chain 'too tight', we are saying that WE run our chains on the "tight side" to help prevent missed shifts.

[@Turbo329]

Very nice Brock. You explained it very clear and hopefully it will help to clear up a lot of the misinformation on the web. Great job!

[@BrockDavidson]

Thanks Turbo329! Unfortunately, the scope of misinformation on the web is far greater than our ability to provide real answers.

[@andrewmerkes7512]

For all who have 2016-2018 zx10-zx10rr there's a recall so make sure you check your vin with your local Dealer. Very very important if you don't your bike could cause some major damages.

[@Simey2wheels]

Great video as always, how can you be sure the bike isn't pulling ignition timing? Perhaps that's why there isn't much difference? Ftecu is essential for racing. On my 15 R6 track bike it enables me to adjust engine braking, opens throttles fully (stock they don't), disables ais, alter fan temps, quick shift etc etc. A Pcv can't do all of that!

[@lm8098]

Hi Brock, congratulations! for your very educational and informative videos. I own a gsx r750 L3, wondering if you have produced any videos as to how to tune the engine for this model (something similar to this video)? Thanking you in advance, cheers

[@BrockDavidson]

The tuning proceedures demonstrated in this series apply to your L3 also.

[@harleyheller5573]

I would love to get the ECM flashed on my ZX10R since I took the cat out , leo slip on and a air filter just to make sure its performing at it's best.

[@BrockDavidson]

Contact Guhl Motors

[@fattymcgee123]

Wish I could drop my bike off for a while... better yet, stick around and learn some stuff. Thanks for the video, always informative.

[@Vlad_636]

Very cool information video! Could you please explain to me, why so high degrees ignition when the throttle in low position and hight rpm? Sorry for my English

[@Vlad_636]

I try to remap my scooter (aprilia scarabeo 500) and i have in my stock map 125 degrees ignition in low tps - hight rpm. Is it normal?

[@BrockDavidson]

Yes, ignition timing is all based on how much time is available to burn the air/fuel mixture, As engine RPM increases, the time is reduced so the timing must be advanced to compensate. More info here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

[@Vlad_636]

@@BrockDavidson thank you for the answer

[@daveyt4802]

Can you watch live ignition timing? Kinda like rpm and mph? All or each cylinder(s)?

[@BrockDavidson]

It's possible. Not sure what that would tell you that looking at the ignition maps in the ECU wont?

[@daveyt4802]

Like to see some more ignition maps. Especially for Suzuki.

[@BrockDavidson]

@@daveyt4802 You saw where ignition changes made no difference - correct?

[@daveyt4802]

Interested in SV and DL maps compared to GSXR maps.

[@sonoma314]

So revealing on that chain. even at a 1/2 inch it still has enough slack, and the suspenion is compressed some with the straps and his weight on it. A little tight is ok! Thanks for the info Brock

[@Snakes709]

When you adjust the timing, dont you bave to adjust the fuel maps as well to really see the changes? I’m using the woolich auto tuner on my zx14r and did a base map. Then tried the base map off of the woolich site which increases timing abit and my fuel maps were out of wack. Took a few rides to get them where they should be.

[@BrockDavidson]

We have found that adjusting the timing on normally aspirated modern sportbike engines is typically a waste of time. The only time it helps is to mask a poor tune or compensated for using an octane rating higher than the engine was designed to burn.

[@chriswade3986]

Hey I have some questions, I’m starting to tune my 2021 zx10r with the woolich racing software. I have the auto tune, o2 sensor, log box . I have your block off plates, sprint air filter, full m4 exhaust, clutch mod, and springs . I’m trying to teach myself but I’d like to have someone who’s good give me some direction.

[@BrianFrichette]

I'm curious if there's a possibility of picking up a bit by taking a degree of timing out? In case it's not obvious, I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have seen stranger things happen tuning.

[@BrockDavidson]

In some instances, it can help a bit. Since oxygenated fuels contain O2, they tend to function somewhat like Nitrous oxide injection and increase the burn rate - reducing ignition timing can help prevent detonation as well decrease cylinder pressure at high RPM's, which can increase MPH.

[@BrianFrichette]

@@BrockDavidson interesting!

[@BOOSTEDH2]

I wish you did this when you guys were working on the H2. So much good information.

[@BrockDavidson]

@BoostedH2 - we did this +MUCH more! We just didn't video every move. As you know, we offer a completely tuned package that was proven to over 226 MPH using all bolt-on components and stock supercharger gears. This level of detail goes into all of our work, and everything from our BMW, to R1, to ZX-10 packages, are all matched in this fashion. Our video budget has been extended for 2018, so we will continue on making advancements and bring our viewers along for the ride :)

[@BOOSTEDH2]

Oh for sure. I meant the videos ;) Love watching this stuff

[@BrockDavidson]

With the video budget we relocated for 2018 - I believe you will be very pleased.

[@marcusjr80]

Brock, I really like your videos man, very detailed and quite interesting. After this project is finished, would you do the same style of videos for smaller displacement bikes like the grom, r3, etc?

[@BrockDavidson]

@Marcus Jr. - Thanks! We try to make the videos enjoyable. FYI: we perform these tests on every bike we decide to configure into a Stock to Brock Performance Package. The Grom is covered in detail in this channel. Please see our Grom Info. page for more details: blog.brocksperformance.com/honda-grom-msx125-14-17-information-page/

Excellent as usual, but, how about increase the timing only at midrange rpm and leave it oem on top? this the way we do it on cars and we increase torque a lot.

[@BrockDavidson]

Please define the measurement techniques required to verify "a lot"

Brock Davidson sorry, I now, not a lot, but we usually see 4-6 hp at at midrange,..

[@megaseg100]

Hello Brock question : how power comander map table with 20-40-60-80-100 throtle positions convert into flesh map table 21.9,25,27,28 ..... column so much more..

[@BrockDavidson]

Not well.

[@Utahforrest]

I’m not too concerned with HP gain but I know I do need to work with the ECU since installing my SC Project exhaust. Still confused on whether I need to have a power commander for this and how much it should cost.

[@BrockDavidson]

If you are interested in a "set and forget" , an ECU de-restriction flash with the fuel tune built in is usually the way to go. Here is an example for the 2017 L7: brocksperformance.com/brock-flash-ecu-stage-1-f-with-fuel-tune-gsx-r1000-17-18-must-send-us-your-ecu/ if you have questions in regard to a flash not listed, please e-mail [e-mail]

[@theballylad]

Hi Brock. I have a k5 Gsxr 1000. It has 20k kms on it, an akrapovic can and link pipe, oem titanium headers. Used mainly on the street. What tuning upgrades, if any are available for my bike?

[@BrockDavidson]

Please contact our customer service team: 937-912-0054, [e-mail] or live chat. There are many performance upgrades available for your bike - they will need to what type of street riding you do (curves, roll-ons etc.) and what type of budget you are working with.

[@theballylad]

Brock Davidson thanks for the swift reply 👍

[@VASILLEVSKI1878]

I have a question regarding the high end air filters such as Sprint and MWR. For both of these companies they have street filters, such as the P08, and they have racing ones which state 'RACING ONLY' next to them and are advised against street use. Why is that and what is the difference in performance? How do the new P08F1-85 compare to the regular ones in terms of performance?

[@BrockDavidson]

The P08 is a street filter - the same material that is used in Ducati 1299 Panigale Superleggera/ 1199 Panigale Superleggera and Ducati Panigale R: here is more info. the brochure explains the additional flow rate of the P08F1-85 compared to the others. This material is used in high-level racing (Moto GP, WSB etc) for maximum performance and filtration: blog.brocksperformance.com/sprint-filter-information-page/

[@VASILLEVSKI1878]

Thanks!

[@BrockDavidson]

One extra note: we use the P08-F1 on the street here in Ohio. In a dusty climate, the P08 would be suggested.

[@Klubi94]

Im in love with that series! I can't wait for next episode. Thanks Brock's for your effort and sharing knowledge. ;)

[@TheCANTU]

Thank's Brock for taking the time to POST GREAT VIDEOS 👍👍 your the Man...keep up the good work

[@Simey2wheels]

Hey Brock, interested to know your kill times for your quick shift?

[@daveyt4802]

This was the best episode IMO. Can changing cams with higher lift cause knocking and pinging? I did and have some knocking at heavy loads and around 7000 rpm. Not bad enough to damage pistons. If BD did a cam degreeing video.... heh

[@BrockDavidson]

It would be more about duration. Any pinging whatsoever can wuickly destroy your engine. Increase your octane and isolate your problem asap.

[@daveyt4802]

Yeah, I've tried 94 octane and it doesn't make a difference so I was wondering if ignition timing needs to match cam profiles.

[@1993whitenoise]

My wife is mad at me because I can’t stop watching these videos lol.

[@mattwispagold2380]

Love these videos! Can you turn off the injector cut off in the ecu at all? My gsxr dives forward when I let off throttle as the injectors cut off.

[@BrockDavidson]

For this bike - yes. The FTecu software has Injector Decel Cut: Enable/Disable.

[@LifeCreator]

Matt Wispagold excellent question!!

[@6.5creedmoorrips6creedmoor2]

Hey brock I got a question I bought the woolich flashing kit. Been doing there auto tune. But my question is gear group 1. Gear group 2 and gear group 3. They say 1 is for first and 2nd timing gear group 2 is 3nd 4 gear group timing and gear group 3 is 5 and 6 gear timing is this correct

[@BrockDavidson]

Very sorry - we do not offer/sell/endorse/support/offer assistance or technical advice for or in regard to Woolich.

[@steveortez2613]

Great episode do you think a mechanical ignition advancer would work better than doing it electronically

[@BrockDavidson]

Nope.

[@moto__shark]

I have a question. I got my ECU flashed on my 09 CBR600RR and now my bike runs 30° hotter. Before my engine temp was around 170° on highways now it’s 200°+. I was told that the bike would run a little cooler. Any thoughts? Thanks!

[@BrockDavidson]

@Moto Shark, the first thing to check would be your antifreeze type, level etc... if it's ok, did you change anything else at the same time as your flash (gearing, etc...)? If not, it would be very strange for a tuner to mess up a flash to the point of a 30 degree temp difference in apples to apples conditions...but it can happen. An excessively lean tune, or incorrect ignition timing could be the culprit. Additionally, and we have seen this many times...the tuner will accidently botch the mapping in a single cylinder. Example, we had a trouble H2 that had 60 degrees ignition timing at WOT in only one cylinder?! The bike comes with around 20 degrees from the factory. The only thing that saved the engine is that the bike sounded so terrible on the initial ride...the owner limped it home. The old tuner was fired and replaced by a much more competent tuner. Contact your tuner and let him know what's going on - hopefully he will stand behind his work and get you sorted.

[@moto__shark]

@@BrockDavidson Thank you so much! The only thing I can think of is that my power commander was removed before flashing the ECU. I had my bike dyno-tuned five years ago. I don't know if that could be the issue. I appreciate your help!

[@BrockDavidson]

@@moto__shark power commander should not be required with a full flash.

[@moto__shark]

@@BrockDavidson It's been removed before the flash. I don't have it on anymore. That's why I'm confused.

[@MCA842]

Brock what is better for more HP? K&N filter or Sprint race filter? And another quastion what is that black thing on your trottle gas handle?

[@BrockDavidson]

We prefer, use and cell Sprint Filter. We dont sell the other guys,

[@MCA842]

Brock Davidson do you have the sprint race filter for Suzuki B-King 2009?

[@BrockDavidson]

We do not - sorry! But check DNA filters: www.e-dnafilters.com/product/Motorcycle-Filters/Suzuki/DNA-0413/P-S13N08-01/Suzuki-B-King-1300-(08-12)-DNA-Air-Filter

[@SoCal-AMG]

how can i get my 2016 suzuki gsx-s1000 tuned by you?...i love how knowledgeable you are..my bike is currently stock

[@BrockDavidson]

We have done all of the work/tuning already and have a complete package available: brocksperformance.com/s2b-performance-package-for-the-gsx-r1000-12-16/

[@BrockDavidson]

Check this out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qp-baXiqh5qCb8k

[@haywoodjablomie3830]

Great information as always. Question though....doesnt the bike have a knock sensor that would pull timing if it detected knock?

[@BrockDavidson]

The Suzuki's do not have knock sensors.

[@haywoodjablomie3830]

@@BrockDavidson is that all Suzuki's or just the newer ones?

[@BrockDavidson]

@Haywood, all Suzuki's we deal with. Currently, the BMW's, and the supercharged Kaws are about the only imports we encounter with them.

[@haywoodjablomie3830]

@@BrockDavidson ah ok. I also have a 08 cbr1000rr and that's the first bike I saw with a knock sensor

[@BrockDavidson]

Interesting. I learned something new - thanks! :)

[@EvanEJHall]

I hope I'm not too late to this video, I just installed the bike side ft kit on my 07 fz1 anything on yamaha to bring out the best with ignition timing?

[@BrockDavidson]

Not that we have ever measured.

[@EvanEJHall]

@@BrockDavidson ok, I know its the same engine as what's in the r1 but longer stroke and detuned. Any tips on the cross plane engine?

[@MarkAngHunter]

Great video. One question, you never actually said what the R features are that can be turned on. I was under the impression the quickshifter worked on the non-r model’s ecu if you added the sensors.

[@BrockDavidson]

We prove the stock, nonR ECU does not function with the sensors installed here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6e8n6Gpg7h_rtU

[@MarkAngHunter]

Brock Davidson awesome. Thanks.

[@mike216ism]

Hey Brock is that chain on the tighter side okay for the street? My shifting is a little clunky on my 1000r. It's great at higher revs. A little clunky under 6k. I'm about right in the middle of spec. If running the chain a little tighter without limiting suspension travel gets me shifting nicer I'm all in. Thanks a bunch for all of the informative videos. Especially the gsxr videos

[@BrockDavidson]

We run on the tight side everywhere we want the bike to shift correctly every time 😉

[@mike216ism]

@@BrockDavidson 👌 I'm going to go 3/4 and see. Thanks again. That chain whipping around under load looked crazy. That should give me plenty for suspension travel. Have a nice weekend

[@mike216ism]

@@BrockDavidson I got it right at or a hair lower than 20mm or 3/4. It's sooo smooth now. It's just a little tighter than I previously had. Big difference in the lower rpm. Appreciate you explaining all this. My first quick shifter / auto blipper

[@mike216ism]

Could I bother you with one more question trying to fully understand this quick shifter. Why is it so much smoother at higher rpm vs lower. I would have assumed there's a higher load at higher rpm vs lower making it it less smooth while using the quick shifter. It's actually the opposite. Very smooth the higher we are in the rev range. Caught me by surprise my first couple of rides. Everything you do here is very much appreciated. Take care

[@BrockDavidson]

@@mike216ism because everything about the process is happening quicker at higher rpms. As a general rule, we use our shifters only at wide open throttle at high rpms.

[@giuseppedellosso3630]

Hi, I'm Joe from Italy and I want to make a question.. .. What about putting on the bike a plasma ignition kit and make a run? Others on cars gaining from 5 to 15 hp! What I sean so far for this is that Improving the voltage with plasma, you can increase sparkplug gap and let you burn better and more gas... Ovouslly getting more lean, must increase gas.

[@BrockDavidson]

@Joe - Hello from the US. I have not heard of the ignition kit you describe, but I can tell you that higher output ignitions are far more effective on cars than sportbikes, due to the superior combustion chamber design of the bikes. If the race fuel is not oxygenated, higher octane will continue to hurt power in normally aspirated, OEM applications. Here is more info. on using high Octane race fuel: blog.brocksperformance.com/ufaqs/how-does-octane-affect-my-bikes-power-and-performance/

[@giuseppedellosso3630]

Thank you for responding, well on you tube there are even a lot of home made kits.. Worth some searching on this. Very simple to do one. Making a plasma spark will increase the spark making better combustion having the capacity to burn all the gas.. It's like having the effect of two spark plugs having one. Onother question.. Dose the bike recognize the octane in the gas and make automatic ignition timings based on that? Because I think that's the reason why I think you haven't find much improvements with Suzuki in teasing ignition timings. In ignition timings, the manufacturer is not so near the limits because the bike even goes in regions having poor octane gas.

[@charalamposrafailalexoglou7909]

The DOCTOR of motorcycles!!!

[@Honda1k]

I'm confused so are you saying on a basic tune (stock) bike we should be running 89 instead of 93

[@BrockDavidson]

Only if you want to make more power: blog.brocksperformance.com/throttle-nation-magazine-the-gas-factor-fuel-options-for-max-hp/

[@mikeskidmore6754]

Amazing on the timing .. with a car you can gain quite a lot adding timing .. very low compression though.. Chevy LS-1 motors have two detonation sensors.. I would think plus 3 degrees with 93 octane might be good .. Can you wear out an ECM flashing it many times.. You can't advance the timing over stock is the engine already has high compression ..

[@BrockDavidson]

Modern motorcycles have amazingly efficient combustion chambers - the only time we see the need for more ignition timing is to burn fuel that our engines were not designed for (some race organizations mandate 'sponsored' fuel which is not correct for our applications, etc.) Most modern (normally aspirated) Japanese bikes do not have detonation sensors. This bike has a 13.2-1 compression ratio and is designed to operate on 90 Octane fuel - it revs to a true 14,500 RPM. Car engines are very different in their construction and load requirements.

[@mikeskidmore6754]

I was just thinking about how much advancing the timing on an old small block Chevy engine improved performance and mpg and I recalled a lot of that was to make up for a worn out stretched timing chain .. distributor runs off from the cam shaft .. I built a 488 CI Chevy Truck engine to work hard all day long in the farmers fields to spread lime .. had the pistons valves and combustion chambers Helium coated.. The Helium witch is a lot like sand fell off and scratched the cylinders so badly I burned 7 quarts of oil per day or more I had to grind all the Henium off the valves combustion chamber ect with a while wheel on a bench and hand grinder.. bored out the cylinders to 040 form 020 .. In a car engine cast iron ect and the pistons you can gain by smoothing all the sharp edges polishing combustion chambers from casting flaws that would glow as a hot spot .. there are lots of small things you can do with less refined engines.. The NEW LS engines have timed direct injection so you can't have detention if there is no fuel in the combustion chamber..

[@patrickgagne8795]

Oh man. Your vids are fantastic. Definitely just got a new subscriber

[@cobratoxic]

Brock can you do á vídeo speaking about Power comander vs rápid bike racing vs bazzaz, what one can do, and the best one.

[@BrockDavidson]

@cobratoxic - they all basically do the same thing (tune fuel/ allow accessories etc.) . We prefer the PCV, due to it's simplicity and advanced tuning features when combined with the Dynojet Model 250 I dyno using Winpep and the C3 tuning software.

[@antoniolopezgracia2582]

will you increase your hp if you advance your ignition 5 degrees instead of delaying it 5 degrees?

[@BrockDavidson]

We did both, no change in Hp.

[@alderinerush]

You got us couch tuners there haha. That's exactly what I was thinking

[@youmatt2]

Great work, thumbs up! Question: you block the PAIR, but do you also block the VENT?

[@BrockDavidson]

The crank vent? Certainly not - they are two completely different items. If you block the crank vent, pressure buildup in the crank case will kill power and possibly blow out seals/gaskets etc.

[@youmatt2]

I mean the oil vapor recycling system... in suzuki slang is aka "vent" ;)

[@BrockDavidson]

Oil vapor is routed into the airbox in OEM applications - it can be disconnected from the air box, that airbox nipple plugged and the crankcase VENTALATED to the atmosphere, typically through a crank vent filter. This mod can cause the bike to have an oily smell, produce white smoke, dump oil in front of the rear wheel in certain instances (over full on oil, missed shifts etc.) and can hamper horsepower. Ours is stock.

[@hayabusa_guy]

Would adding ignition timing alter the AFR? Would you need to adjust fuel maps to see any gains when increasing ignition timing?

[@BrockDavidson]

The AFR stay's very consistent between 89 and 93 Shell. On this bike, we can adjust the AFR in a window from 13.0-13.5 and it makes within 1/2 hp, so it really doesn't matter.

[@hayabusa_guy]

Is AFR also consistent between stock ignition timing and +2 or +4 ignition timing?

[@BrockDavidson]

There is little to no measurable difference.

[@ilanosbentalos]

What clip do you have on the throttle? And what do you use for an ignition pickup?

[@daveyt4802]

Wondering about 2 spark plug heads. Hear they don't make as good of power as single plug heads?

[@BrockDavidson]

Depends on the efficiency of the combustion chamber design. Works great on old 2 valve heads, just extra weight and complexity in a modern 4 valve Penta chamber.

[@daveyt4802]

I hear they mess up the flame front and burn the side of the cylinders.

[@BrockDavidson]

Not in a properly tuned engine.

[@nighthawk7450]

I feel dumb for asking but just to be clear. Are we currently at 193hp with every possible power enhancer except for the mr12 fuel? For whatever reason I was under the impression the oxygenated fuel only added a few horses. But it seems to be more like 10+ at this point. Thanks in advance. I'm going to do the full stock to Brock treatment with mine this summer and I'm wondering just how high the numbers can get on street gas.

[@BrockDavidson]

We pick up around 9-10 RWHP using MR12 with proper tuning. There is no engine tuning left to make more power, but we do have some additional tricks up our sleeves ;)

[@nighthawk7450]

Brock Davidson huge thanks for the response. Looking forward to seeing what effect the carbon wheels have on the overall dyno pull times and other such details. Keep up the awesome work!

[@ichista]

Yes been waiting for the next episode keep them coming 👌🏻

[@Turbo329]

Brock, if you do your ignition timing with the Dynojet Ignition Module, you make the changes to the map one time, correct? When I did it for my H2 I don't remember having to do it for each cylinder when using the Dynojet IM vs. Flashing it. So far, I'm really happy with the Dynojet Ignition module but I guess flashing the bike would be cheaper and would save $300. I think that using the I.M. is much faster while at the dyno you can punch in degrees while the bike is still running on the dyno.

[@BrockDavidson]

Currently, In high-performance applications, we use the ECU to adjust ignition timing and tune the fuel with a PCV.

[@Turbo329]

Cool! I will probably follow suit then. I wanted to tune with the IM and once I found settings that work, flash them in the ECU. The nice thing about Ignition Module partnered up with the PCV and map switch is that you can have two different fuel/timing combinations. The way I'm set up now is a pump gas map with stockish timing and a race fuel map with hotter timing. I love what you're doing man. Keep at it!

[@BrockDavidson]

Be careful with that. Because the IM is a piggyback, it can't measure IT real time. This means it must read the pulse BEFORE it fires, wait and then fire. This means the best IT for each may vary, so assuming the IM rates are correct, and dumping them into the ECU mapping could be problematic.

[@Turbo329]

Wow! I didn't know that. Thanks.

[@MrGuerraTube]

Hi Brock... i have been really curious about this series and particular this video... i know for a long time that Suzuki Gsx-R 1000 has 3 gear group maps of timing advance for each 2 gears... and usually the gear group 3 lefts us with a big smile on our faces... i was expecting you to run the bike with gear group 3 engaged to see the diference it will make instead of the 2 anf 5 degrees timing advance... i don't know the agenda for the development on this bike but it would be great if you have time to show us the "big kick" witg gear group 3...! Thanks and keep the awesome work!

[@BrockDavidson]

The only differences between Group 1/2/3 timing maps are below 25% throttle, so they can't be properly measured on the Dyno. Swapping those maps are the flash version of adding a TRE. It makes your ass happy but has no effect on peak power.

[@MrGuerraTube]

Brock Davidson yes, i believe you are right, and i have never measured it properly, however hp and top peak power is not the only thing that matters on a 1000cc bike... also torque is very important, and that is really noticeable with this kind of mod... Anyway, it is your agenda, and you have the proper tools to get the best results, and i have been really curious about that!

[@mb-kf3pv]

When will you start flashing the 2020 R model ?

[@BrockDavidson]

Maybe? But you can get with Chris Moore - he already has flashes for the 2020 R model with our exhaust(s): kzbin.info

[@mb-kf3pv]

Ok thank you think I'll just wait till you have them ready

[@simonfarnsworth5686]

Hi Brock, would be interested to see the comparison retarding the timing. Have you done any testing.

[@BrockDavidson]

It's a great way to kill power as well as create excessive exhaust temps.

[@rofgar]

Great explanation, thank you.

[@hassnanbig]

i cant flash ECU in Pakistan. why we need Flashing the ECU while installing quickshifter/Auto Blipper in GSXR1000 2017 if there is option in the manu of that bike...if it is must then tell me quick shifter that can be plug play and flashing the ECU is not required

[@BrockDavidson]

If you purchased the quick shifter option when you purchased the bike - you do not need to flash. If not, you can add an aftermarket shifter that does not require a reflash.

[@hassnanbig]

@@BrockDavidson please suggest me good QS/Auto blipper

[@BrockDavidson]

@@hassnanbig if you are allowed to install a Dynojet PCV, you can map your fuel and install their shifter/blipper.

[@martinfriera4837]

Hi. I installed ftecu flash and quickshifter. I have a problem. When changing gears, the engine shuts down for a long time. 1 second approximately. Do you have any idea what the solution is?

[@BrockDavidson]

No clue. We have not encountered a problem of this nature. Ftecu would be your best information source.

[@asza4ever]

thanks brock, keep up the good work, thanks a lot

[@jockvanniekerk8074]

Brock if you are using mr12 or plan on using mr12 say on any late model high performance bike would it be ok if you leave the ignition timing stock or is there some bikes out there that will get enjin damage because the ignition timing was not adjusted. Thanks

[@BrockDavidson]

Jock Van niekerk we leave the timing stock for mr12...sometimes we even pull timing out.

[@minibuggies926]

Thanks Brock for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. After watching part 7 I was surprised to see the timing map with as much as 50-51 degrees at WOT. Am I totally out to lunch here? That can't be right? I wouldn't expect to see much more than 32 degrees. And with the current highly efficient induction systems and combustion chambers I would expect less timing than ever. Just curious what your thoughts were, after all, your relying on 3rd party software and not actually being able to use a timing light. Thanks and keep the videos coming !

[@BrockDavidson]

That topic is discussed (a couple of times) in the comments below.

[@BangAverageRider]

In the UK with have a ECU recall for the L7 Gsxr, so my bike flash will be wiped and have to start again. Is this the same in the US? Also my mechanic said he could not do "live" mapping with the Flashtune so its flashed but not perfect. Is that the reason to use power commander as well

[@two-stroke-guy]

with so much tension on the chain. don't you have problem with the rear suspension??

[@BrockDavidson]

Not that has ever had any effect that we can measure.

[@two-stroke-guy]

ok . i thought when rear suspension going up and down the chain tension change and if you put to much tension on the chain you may have trouble like your suspension doesn't operates properly...

[@BrockDavidson]

We don't have 'too much' tension - we simply run the chain a little tighter to prevent missed shifts. When you watch the video, you can see how much chain slack we still have.

[@will160176]

Hey brock. I've done everything you have (basically stage 1). Produced 182hp for their dyno max peak at around 12.8k. My question is simple. On the flat track, I tried very hard but could not get it to redline in 6th gear. It tops out at 178mph (speedometer not gps) and 12.8k rpm on the dash. I am a 240lb rider. Is it just my weight and conditions?

[@will160176]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGLMoql3nMqIa7c phone kind of in the way, sorry. did not think I would post at the time

[@will160176]

ordering quickshifter from your site, theory in my head is that fractional time will help me keep rev higher

[@BrockDavidson]

@William Slocum, proper speed measurement should be performed on a closed course using a certified measuring system - GPS readings are very close to these measurements. Speedo readings are notoriously inaccurate. Weight is not as much of a consideration as rider build - if two riders weigh the same, but one has much wider shoulders, or cannot tuck as tight as the other - the narrower rider who can tuck tighter will have a serious advantage at high speeds. Also, please check out #7 here: blog.brocksperformance.com/faq/what-launch-technique-does-brock-teach-to-rookie-drag-racers/

[@nineplus1134]

More from the UK, excellent work, really makes it all understandable. Thanks boss (PCV,Autotune).

[@KrisFlix]

I have a 2017 GSX R1000R. All stock, except for a yoshi slip on. So with an ECU flash, I can get 192 to 204 horsepower? Stock horsepower at the rear wheel is 165?

[@BrockDavidson]

It would be a very tough battle to get full system HP out of any slip on...I know we could not do it. We are not saying that you can't mix in your own components...we are saying that the only way to obtain our results completely is to run our complete/tested combination.

[@KrisFlix]

Look forward to buying the setup you guys are running. I can buy all the parts the brocksperformance.com?

[@BrockDavidson]

@KrisFlix Yes. We make it easy to purchase the complete S2B (Stock to Brock) packages: brocksperformance.com/s2b-performance-package-for-the-gsx-r1000-and-gsx-r1000r-17-18/ additional suggested/related items are at the bottom of the page also.

[@LoneAmigo17]

Great video Brock , if you decat a bike like say an MT10 do you have to do any mods ?

[@BrockDavidson]

We always tune the fuel when we modify the exhaust. It's a necessity for smooth power.

[@LoneAmigo17]

Brock Thank you 👍

Last question, as far as I know Honda PGMFi ecm controls dynamically timing all the time, little jumps advancing until engine start to ping and then a big jump retarding and the cycle starts again, so the engine always have the best timing possible, do you know how Suzuki ecm controls the timing? , I asume it has knock sensors too.. Thanks!

[@BrockDavidson]

The Suzuki does not have knock sensors - in the motorcycle world, these are still rare. The bikes with Boshe ECU's have them (BMW/Ducati and some others) the Japanese would include the Supercharged Ninja H2... can't think of any others.

Brock Davidson Honda CBR 1000r has.

Brock Davidson May be you find it useful, a comprehensive pdf from Honda PGMFi (with knock sensor) and how it works. Go straight to page 3-29. Keep this series of videos! www.google.com.ar/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.maultechatv.com/techguides/Service%2520Manuals/HONDA/HDS%2520Fuel%2520Injection/Honda%2520Programmable%2520FI%2520-%2520How%2520it%2520works.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjr16vzwKvZAhVDTJAKHWJ2B0UQFjACegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw0Qno4kRQdCZS7gbmXbZzuV

[@DonGH297]

Thanks for the great video Brock. Love it and i’ve learned a lot. Cheers👍🏻

[@BrockDavidson]

Glad to hear it!

[@gsxrrrider]

Is the gsxr 1000r best for beginner

[@BrockDavidson]

I believe no 1000cc bike is best for a beginner. While almost all now have low power modes... we find the self-discipline required to stay in these modes long enough to learn to ride properly and avoid temptation is lacking in most new riders after a very short period of time. Please remember new riders also have an almost 100% chance of the bike not remaining vertical in the first 12 months. Even if a new modern sportbike simply falls off of the kickstand, it can cost the owner many thousands of dollars in repair. Insurance costs for sportbike can also be cost-prohibitive, so make sure you check rates on any bike before purchasing. We suggest new riders seek out a bike with moderate power (too low can be as dangerous as too high in some road instances) with no plastic to damage if it tips over. Also, a bike low enough and light enough for the rider to easily control. I personally believe that all riders should have some dirtbike experience before attempting street riding, but sometimes this is not practical. EVERY new rider should attend a motorcycle safety course. In the US, they can be found here: www.msf-usa.org/ a google search in your local area can also be a guide. Motorcycling is great fun, and economical transportation, but only you can prepare for the potential dangers of the road and especially other (distracted) drivers.

[@gsxrrrider]

@@BrockDavidson thanks for informing me u r the great🙋👌

[@gsxrrrider]

How much power does yor gsxr 1000r producing yet know

[@BrockDavidson]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2WldKmJhdydprM

[@disarmyou84]

Brock, I purchased the ecu flash, PCV and full predator exhaust a few months ago. I haven’t ridden the bike yet because it’s winter but my question is has any of the ecu flashes or mapping changed since my purchase? I just wanted to make sure

[@BrockDavidson]

Hello disarmyou84, no changes from our end - but they might as a result of the recall.

[@disarmyou84]

Brock Davidson you mean the misshift recall? I’m not worried about that

[@BrockDavidson]

Correct. If you are not worried about the recall, you are ready to go!

[@disarmyou84]

Brock Davidson thanks! Once the winter is over I am going to post a bunch of pics of my bike with all the mods and stuff on Instagram. I’ll be sure to tag Brock’s Performance in it. Keep a look out it’s the 1000r with neon wheels. Thanks again for the parts, performance and videos!

[@vishalautar7799]

man why would you give out technical information like that but that's awesome thanks for the video. do you have one for a s1000rr 17-18 model

[@BrockDavidson]

Because secrets only benefit the few - we are here to educate the many :) We have an entire series on the S1000RR from 2010-18: blog.brocksperformance.com/bmw-s1000rr-10-16-information-page/

[@jeremybly]

It's crazy how in dept tuning a bike can be. Change this change that, change it back. Lots of trial n error. Guess that's why your the best out there. I've seen some tunners have tunes available for almost every bike out there. By judging how long it takes you to get one bike perfect I'm guessing these other flashers out there are just doing a mediocre job. I had two wheel dynoworks do my flash tune but I'm going to get a dyno tune on my bike cause i feel i received a so so flash. Do you have a flash or pc for my 2017 kawasaki ninja 1000? Full Akra and K n N.

[@BrockDavidson]

@jeremybly - we offer tunes for use with our products. Please contact guhl motors for a tune compatible with your Akro and K&N.

[@TheJalopy80]

Why tune on 89 instead of 91 or 93? It may be a dumb question but from the car world I’m used to tunes with 91 or 93 octane tunes.

[@BrockDavidson]

Bike engines are far more efficient at making power and cooling, so they don't require as much Octane. Per the video, I don't think you will find an OEM car with almost 50 degrees ignition timing and a suggested octane requirement of 90. Our pumps here in our area 87, 89 and 93 Octane... so we run the 89 for max power. We don't feel that 1 point lower will matter.

[@TheJalopy80]

Brock Davidson thank you! Sorry hadn’t gotten to that point in the video yet. Sorry for the dumb question.

[@riflemanjim]

Im surprised you dont use a jnock sensor while tuning. Id think by the time you hear knock your well into the danger range.

[@BrockDavidson]

Our real-time torque output on the dyno helps us see detonation quickly also, but that discussion is beyond the realm of this series.

[@riflemanjim]

Brock Davidson 👍