2022 Salomon ADV Skin 12 Review / Best vest for self supported runs

The 2022 Salomon ADV Skin 12 review is here! This hydration vest for running is so customizable, comfortable, and just great! Maybe the best vest for self supported runs, or long unsupported runs.
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[@pamela_runs_trails]

I have had my AdvSkin12 for over a year and thanks to you just learned about that little pass through for the pole holding bungees! Thank you!!!! The only issue I have with the black version is it is so hard to see where all of the little openings are unless I am in my living room in broad daylight playing with all of the bits and pieces.

[@pamela_runs_trails]

Also the pass through for extra hydration is a great idea.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yeah I use that pass through all the time For an extra flask!

[@superman242242]

You sold me I'm going to buy one of these for my first 100 mile Ultra in August . Thank you . Great review

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Awesome! Which 100 mile race are you doing?

[@Pulsarekk]

Great that you mentioned the shoulder strap material which is not too soft. In older model they used a different material on the edge which was soft but all of the 2022+ vests now have the same internal mesh stretching to the edges of the backpaks and it’s really rough on your skin. This was probably cheaper to produce but is a major drawback not many people talk about. It’s the same with Sense Pro backpacks which should be the most comfortable in the Salomon line. It’s almost like no one tested them on a 50k+ runs. Glad I have the adv skin 2021 model. For sense pro vests I attach kinesio tapes/plaster stripes on my neck/shoulders which does the job (funny thing that Matthieu Blanchard at UTMB 2022 did the same so he has this problem too). In the 2023 new Salomon Pulsar 3 backpack they are coming back to different material on the edges so hopefully they noticed the problem.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Mine hasn’t been a problem for the most part. If I lube the area on my neck it’s been fine.

[@JasonFarrell]

Yet another chaffing review?! Wow. Neck chaffing is the primary reason I'm looking for a new hydration pack because I'm sick and tired of putting a leukotape barrier on my neck from my current one (USWE Pace 8).

[@JasonFarrell]

@@UltraTrailSteven We shouldn't have to bodyglide/tape up our neck, though. Are some packs straps too narrow (small vs medium mis-sizing?) or do we just have abnormal necks? Maybe it'd be worth it to jerryrig a "shoulder strap spreader" out of plastic or something...

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@JasonFarrell The vest has been doing really well for me with minimal chafing. Maybe I am too thin in the shoulders, idk.

[@GodzillaGoesGaga]

I think the solution is get an old cotton t-shirt and sew it to the underside of the shoulder area. This will provide a softer interface.

[@Ivan_Bagnasco]

Man... i loved your video. I just got mine today (Oct 16 2023) online and thank´s to you.. now i know what to expect. Big, fat LIKE all the way from Spain. Keep it up dude!!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Awesome! Glad the video was helpful!

[@Nate-zx3zk]

Never thought about putting a flask in that back area - nice tip!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I do it all the time! Love it

[@kevkongable]

That top pocket for the waterproof jacket has sold it to me. Nothing worse than having to keep taking the pack on and off when you need your waterproof. Living in the North of England this happens a lot when on the hills. Great review thanks!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yes that’s my favorite part of the vest too!

[@JamesBerry-sp9xn]

Great video and review thanks. I have the 8 and def going to upgrade to the 12 for my first 100 miler next year 👍

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I love the 12!

[@fougera1]

My big CON for this vest is that there is no airflow to my back. Running in the heat of Houston means my back is dripping with sweat and it get so bad, it drips down to my shorts. Some runs you would think I went for a swim.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yep I experienced the same in Tennessee. I haven't found a vest with this type of capacity that has airflow to the back though.

[@seekingUltraNick]

Great review, thanks again Steven! I've been rocking the Sense PRO 5, which offers far less storage/versatility at the same price. Still a great training/race day vest for marathon and shorter distances (maybe a 50k, too). I find Salomon's line of vests just a tad confusing for the newbie, but hey, they offer exact sizing for the runner and, to your point, the fit is unbeatable! I'll keep the ADV skin 12 in mind when it's time to run past 50k.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I love my Sense Pro 5 as well. I used it during the Beaverhead 100k and it was perfect! Honestly I would use it for 100 milers as long as the aid stations were 5-8 miles apart. This ADV Skin 12 vest is great for those self supported efforts, or when you need to carry more gear like jackets or maybe even pants.

[@waldo9254]

Just bought one of these and did a first run with it. Was a comfy and while I only did 5 miles I did feel the weight of it a little. Im training for my first marathon and got this so i can sip water and snacks on my schedule. Today was day one of transitionion from treadmill to outdoor running. Apples and oranges. Only inital con is the sloshing of the two water bottles takes some getting used to. Im sure ill easily adapt as im just new to this. Anyway, great review. Learned more about the vest.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thank you and good luck in your training!

[@waldo9254]

@@UltraTrailSteven Did 9 miles today and very different feel. Neck and traps are very sore after. As I got thoroughly sweaty the vest had more movement. Found myself holding the water bladders to try to keep them more stationary. Gotta figure out how to tighten this up. Today was a rough one.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@waldo9254 interesting. Definitely get the sternum straps tight and if using a bladder without much else in the back, tighten down the rear cinch cord too.

[@CelineFerocious]

The trash pouch is brilliant!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

In use, it’s kind of a pain honestly.

[@TrailSage]

Dang it, you beat me to it, lol. Awesome that Salomon hooked you up. I am on the fence about mine. Great review Steven.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Haha I forgot you bought one lol. I absolutely love it! It has All the space I need for really long days in the mountains! Thanks man

[@shelbyjohnson3695]

Fabulous review! Thank you for showing all the details!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thank you! I’m glad it was helpful!

[@yuanyuanintaiwan]

At 7:58 it does feel very bouncy to me, what is your thought about this? I am trying to determine if the bounce is acceptable or not. I see lots of feedback of people on reddit saying this vest has “no bounce at all” but I see this kind of bounce on all videos I’m watching, it is confusing 🤔 thanks!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

It does look like it bounces alot, but when wearing it, it feels very secure and like there is no bounce. It defintely feels more secure and less bouncy than the Camelbak and Ultimate Direction vests I have tested.

[@yuanyuanintaiwan]

@@UltraTrailSteven thanks a lot!! 🙏

[@Aron-t6m]

It looks a bit too losse

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@Aron-t6m not at all. Fits great

[@afrobian1]

I just picked up running this summer. I usually dont run more than 10k. but you sold me on this one... looks like i want to make running a habit so this will coming handy one day when i decide run half marathon or even ultra. :D :D :D

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Good choice!

[@kingsley6236]

Everyone always misses the pocket between the bladder area and the large pocket on the back! great for the thermal layers or base layers!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Absolutely

[@higler.]

Great review! Seems like Salomon really thought through everything with this pack.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

It is my favorite vest for a long day in the woods!

[@higler.]

@@UltraTrailSteven I love a long day in the woods! My Black Diamond Distance 15 is a bit much for most days and has much less front access and pockets so the Salomon seems like a perfect alternative.

[@ClubmanGT1971]

Fantastic, practical review. Everything we need to know. You helped me decide to go with this vest. Cheers 👌

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks!

[@ngdawgs1]

Great review! The poles and the bladder were my concern. Looks like this vest solves for both. Ordering one today. Thanks for all the details. Super helpful.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

So glad it was helpful!

[@aaronb7807]

Thanks for the review Steven. Just picked one up today.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Awesome! Enjoy it!

[@RyanF-n8l]

How tall and how much do you weight? What size vest do you have? I am 6 foot 170 lbs 24 male year old

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I am 6’3” and weight 180lbs. The medium fits me well. In this video was only about 165lbs and it still fit well.

[@BenjaminKaram]

Thanks for the great review! I just got mine and was looking for ideas on how to use all of these pockets!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thanks! Glad it was helpful!

[@antonisdgr]

Iam right between two sizes. What do you recommended? Smaller or Larger? Thanks

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Probably smaller so you can get it tight. If it’s too big it may bounce

[@antonisdgr]

@@UltraTrailSteven thanks greetings from Greece 🇬🇷

[@bev9708]

Nice to see your subscriber numbers climbing there Steven!!! With sales right now, am tossing up between this and the Sense Pro 5 Set... but I've decided I'm gonna actually go into the city and try them on as maybe a woman's morphology will make a big difference. It'll be my first running vest!!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thank you! My wife LOVES her ADV Skin 12! I personally think the 12 feels more comfortable than the Sense Pro 5. Both are great, but 90% of the time I’m choosing the ADV Skin 12.

[@bev9708]

@@UltraTrailSteven THANKS Steven, that's helpful... the ADV Skin 12 costs a bit more but now I see it's probably worth it!!

[@SMHartNPC]

I think you can attach a salomon quiver to this vest as well....I need tips on how to access my stuff in the back zip pocket when it's on my body though 😂

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yea you can attach the quiver. You will have to take the vest off to access the rear zippered compartment

[@marlinweekley51]

Good review. Didnt know about the front pole loops. I have a number of vest but after gettin the sp 12 its the only one i use for everything. Used it for a 190 ss fkt this summer it was great. Idea for vest makers: how about a shoulder pocket for trackers like the explorer or mini? I rigged a “pocket” out of camera case and 2” wide velcro strap - little bouncy but it worked. Hint to runner: NEVER put you car keys in the vest! Wear shorts with back zip pocket, put them there and zip it shut - every time.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I have used some vests that actually did have a small pocket for an InReach Mini. But that is a great idea on these larger capacity vests. I too put my keys in my path projects shorts. Much safer.

[@stoic_turtle2]

Any tips for adjusting the quick link for a taller runner? Should I move them up or down?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Depends on where you like the straps on your chest. Find what’s most comfortable for you

[@kixmiller]

I have really enjoyed your race previews and product reviews. Thanks, and please keep them up! I'm running loops at Frozen Head and repeats of Mt Sterling a lot and have been looking for a vest that can carry more flasks than just the two fronts - ideally I want to carry 5 total 500s. I was stoked to hear you say you had been carrying additional flasks in the back of the Sense Pro and now the Adv Skin. I am curious how many flasks you have carried in the back pocket without turning the back of the vest into a slinky? I have also been toying with the idea of carrying flasks in the bladder sleeve - to give it a little more structure and keep them from bouncing, have you tried this?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Glad you are liking the videos! I miss FHSP and the Mt. Sterling loop is beautiful! I have carried 2 additional flasks in the back ouch. With the Adv Skin 12, I’ve carried two additional flasks in the rear pass through pocket while using the rear ouch for other gear

[@kixmiller]

@@UltraTrailSteven Thanks man, appreciate ya!

[@bbtrentham]

Thanks for the review. What size did you test...medium?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yes this is a medium. I am 6’3” and 165lbs.

[@andrewrogerson5587]

Hi, great video. Would you recommend the adv 12l for 3 nights, fastpacking TMB ?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yes if you pack well

[@affinitystablepeanuts]

So ADV12 is an amazing vest with tons of pockets and more elasticated than the Active series. But there's also the S/Lab series and the Sense Pro! I struggle to find a video that would show and explain all the differences between current generations of the S/Lab, Sense Pro and Adv Skin series. Could you make that one?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Unfortunately, I do not have any of the S/Lab vests. I do have the Sense Pro 5, and I have a full video on it.

[@affinitystablepeanuts]

@@UltraTrailSteven cheers mate. No worries. Just trying to make sense (heh) of their lineup. From what I got so far their S/Lab Pulsar (3L) has the most breathable back, just a single layer of perforated textile but is not widely available. Seems the best for quick races though. Their older S/Lab Sense used to have the similar single-layer back but is no longer a thing. The current S/Lab Ultra has a tad more capacity and sliiightly less breathable back. And the current Sense Pro looks like it's on par with that. Thanks for doing great reviews and for finding time to reply! Appreciate it.

[@sdpsydog]

Cool review. You really got all the way around the west. Thanks 🖐

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thank you!

[@jannasvanheerden3723]

Great review! I’m struggling to decide between the Ultimate Direction Mountain 5.0 (also a great review) and the Salomon Adv 12. From your reviews I prefer the UD because it can fit a 3l reservoir and has a larger volume, but the comfort and adjustability of the Salomon looks great. I’m heavier than most ultra runners - 220lbs (so more nutrition and water requirements). I’m planning to do an 100k run with limited support, which vest would you recommend?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thank you! Both vests are great options. The Salomon is definitely more comfortable to wear long term, and I like the pocket configuration much better. The UD does have a bit more volume.

[@jeandrevanzyl2588]

I have an old adv 5 and UD mountain for the last 2 years. No even a question for me. DEFINITELY the Salomon.

[@n.duquette]

Being right between the medium and small has left me left out. Fully loaded the medium was bouncing around and digging into my collar bones super bad. Had to bail on my run and return the vest to the car. The small is so small that fully loaded it doesn’t fit well. Such a bummer because there aren’t any other vests that really compare to this one.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Check out the Camelbak Apex Pro. It’s very similar but fits a bit more snug. The medium might fit you well CAMELBAK Apex Pro Vest / Built in quiver and RECCO tech kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHW6mKSnjcZjgNE

[@Spen_B]

Hmmm Solomon or Montane? Decision... Decisions

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I’ve not tried Montane so I am no help lol. But the Salomon vest is awesome!

[@eyeninja3043]

Very happy with mine but I’ve never had a vest before this one to compare

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Glad you are happy with it!

[@henya2409]

Hi there, sorry for being off topic: have you by any chance tried the Asics Fujispeed? Also, I love the ADV12, but like Paul here, I have never had one before so can't compare.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I have not. I really want to try those and the Fujitrabuco.

[@jonnychantl]

Hi. Thanks for the lovely video. I have question. I got an unisex adv skin 12 recently. I used for 5-6 times and hand-washed it with natural soap every time. I noted the “Salomon” logo print on the flask pocket is coming off. Did it happen to yours too? Thanks.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

No the logo on the flasks is fine.

[@jonnychantl]

@@UltraTrailSteven hi. You mean the logo on the flask pocket ? Thanks

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@jonnychantl oh sorry! I missed that word lol. Some of it has come of a bit yes.

[@DustinHallUltraRunner]

The jacket pocket is nice. I have a Kailas vest with it. More vest need it. Great review.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thanks for watching!

[@andrewwhite2711]

Super helpful review ! I need help with the drinking valve on the soft hydrapack bottles. Not sure how to open and close them. Many Thanks !

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thank you! Do you mean the speed flask with the quick release tops, or just the silicone bite valves?

[@SMHartNPC]

Squeeze them with your mouth, they were confusing for me as well, I was complicating things

[@KennedyS123]

Excellent video 🎉

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thanks!

[@rogersurez9120]

Is there any way the vest bouncing full load when adjusted?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Any vest is going to bounce a little, but this vest bounces the least out of all the vests I’ve tried.

[@tombargerstock3419]

Another great review. How was the sizing, compared to the recommended size on Salomon’s site?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

This is a medium, and I am 6’3” and 165lbs. It fits like the medium of the Sense Pro 5 as well

[@sankalpshiva]

@@UltraTrailSteven Did you measure around the chest as recommended on Salomon's site? I have read that they run small. I ordered a Salomon Sense Pro 10 size S but it seems small. My chest measures well within the S range. Not sure if it is an issue with Sense Pro 10 or if I want to order the Adv Skn 12 size S. Very confused!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@sankalpshiva Well it depends on how you like the fit. If you notice in my video, I have about 6" of open space between the two sides of the vest. YOu can tighten more, or loosen more depending on your preference. My chest size is small, about 38"

[@reformedhampton771]

Thanks for the review. I am 5'10 and similar weight but wear a medium in most things do you think I should try go in store and try one on?@@UltraTrailSteven

[@danielstewart5208]

What size is this I have a medium and I’m unsure if it’s too high up but it looks like a similar height to yours idk where the vest should sit under my arms it feels very comfy and great

[@UltraTrailSteven]

This is a medium vest as well. I am 6’3” tall.

[@danielstewart5208]

@@UltraTrailSteven thank you so much! I hope my vest is the right size.

[@MauriceG85]

Isn't the rubbing because of (wrong) sizing. @2:04 when you talk about the t shirt you can see quite a lot of bouncing of the vest. When wearing a thicker collar maybe the vest fits better? I've just got a size S(93cm chest) and I'm not sure if I should switch to M. It fits quite fine but maybe its a bit too tight.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

The vest itself doesn’t really bounce much at all. The flasks in the vest move up and down though. When I wear the XOSKIN shirts, there is no rubbing issues.

[@MauriceG85]

@@UltraTrailSteven yeah i later realized the clip is in slowmo so it seems a bit worse. I've already ordered a size M. Thanks

[@brianmichaelparks1]

@@MauriceG85how does the medium fit? I am a 93cm chest as well

[@MauriceG85]

@brianmichaelparks1 it fits fine! Did a few trail runs with it and didn't feel I was wearing a vest. I don't recommend using a drink blater, though. That was way too bouncy for me. I used 2 old 500ml soft flasks. I had 2 in the back storage and 2 in the front pockets.

[@ryranpatrickjordan]

What’s your chest size? I’m between a small and medium (38in) and can’t decide to go small or big.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I have a small chest at 37-38", and this is a medium vest. I think either would work

[@ryranpatrickjordan]

@@UltraTrailSteven right on thanks! I just tried the medium on a run and pulled it pretty tight on a down hill out of habit and it was almost touching together. Wasn’t sure if I need a small since it’s prone to stretching.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@ryranpatrickjordan if it was touching I would prob try a small

[@brentonscott8070]

Anyone know the shirt company he’s wearing at 3:23 and 3:34? Looks awesome in blue

[@UltraTrailSteven]

That’s the XOSKIN 3/4 sleeve form fit shirt. I have several of them and they are amazing! They don’t stretch when they get wet, the regulate temps well. If you look in the description of the video there is a link and a coupon code to save some money

[@etienneletourneau1509]

Brilliant review! I was wondering, how comfortable it is if you are using it almost empty? Is the feeling similar to a size 4-5 ? The reason I'm asking is that it would be my first vest and I would be using it for running to my job (carrying a lot of gears) but also for training and races where I would be "lighter".

[@UltraTrailSteven]

It’s great! I have run with only a first aid kit and wipes in the back pocket and it feels fine. There really is no better fitting or more comfortable vest than Salomon!

[@etienneletourneau1509]

@@UltraTrailSteven thanks for the fast and precise answer! You got a new follower Steven! Cheers

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@etienneletourneau1509 awesome!

[@natewoodcock4248]

Have you washed in washing machine? Curious if it came out fine. Thanks man.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I have washed this once with no issue. I was all of my vests in a mesh laundry bag so none of the pull cords get caught on anything. I always wash on cold water, and hang dry.

[@natewoodcock4248]

@@UltraTrailSteven thanks man.

[@seekingUltraNick]

I've typically done a simple hand-wash in the kitchen sink with a dab of laundry detergent, rinse and wring out well and hang dry with all my other gear... works just fine and no worries of damage!

[@Running-j5v]

I recently bought a Salomon vest with two flasks as a gift but the flasks have a bad plastic smell even though I washed them many times it didn't change anything do you know what to do did you have the same problem thanks

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Mine did not have a bad plastic smell when new. Try the bottle sanitizing tablets maybe.

[@blacklabpowerwashllc]

any issues with flasks falling out of back pocket area? looking to try this next weekend during long run.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

No I have never had that happen, and I do it quite a lot.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Only issue is if you hit the bite valve just right sometimes water will squirt out

[@PodusCarpus]

How do you adjust the attachmentbpoints?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Do you mean the removable draw cords?

[@PodusCarpus]

@@UltraTrailSteven the attachment points, where u fix the cord. But I figure it out. It popped out, and I popped it back in. Took 1.5 hour. Very frustrating😄

[@kelbel8754]

Great review! One thing I just cannot figure out… the cinche thing at the top to hold the hydration pack. ?? I just don’t understand. 🤷🏼‍♀️Is there anyway to explain this, please? Thank you!

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Yeah it is a bit different than other vests. You stick the plastic piece through the opening on the bladder, then squeeze the plastic piece and pull the it tight to the bladder, and it holds it in place. I may do a KZbin Short on this.

[@michelleharnett1351]

Love mine, and my 5L vest for shorter runs. Speaking as woman with quite big breasts (sorry for TMI) it fits so well, doesn't move etc, flasks sort of sit in the space between boobs and arms. But I hate the trash bag and have snipped it out of my vests. And you can put it through the washing machine if it gets a bit smelly.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

That’s actually really good info to know. I see women all the time asking for vest recommendations for those with big breasts. Thanks. I never use the trash bag either to be honest. Yep I wash mine too. Thanks!

[@wisniamw]

Thanks for that info. Was looking to buy it as present for mom and this review is very good, but it was missing exacly that information :)

[@joven.magpusao]

I had the Adv Skin5, the fit is very good and I don't have any chafing on my neck and shoulders. My only problem is that it damaged the fabric of my salomon rebel shirt & waa shirts. Is this normal?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

It might be. I know with other vests they have damaged shirts after many many uses.

[@Ale_Ale984]

What size vest do you wear?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I wear a medium. I am 6'3", about 165lbs, with a 38" chest.

[@Ale_Ale984]

@@UltraTrailSteven thank you

[@matthewmyers7826]

have you tried it with 750m bottles?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I have not yet.

[@SepedaGowesBahagia]

nice video bro . cool.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Thanks

[@rodafr]

How does this compare to the Sense pro 10?

[@UltraTrailSteven]

I haven’t tried the Sense Pro 10, but I have tried the 5. Similar in fit, but the ADV Skin series is a bit heavier, but more spacious.

[@rodafr]

@@UltraTrailSteven thanks! I just ordered a Sense Pro 10 and your video made me question the decision 😅

[@UltraTrailSteven]

HA! I am sure you will like the Sense Pro 10!

[@krilin84]

Would love my adv skin 12 if it weren't for the chafing I get on the inside of my upper arms.

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Are you wearing this without a shirt or a sleeveless shirt?

[@krilin84]

@@UltraTrailSteven right, good question, should've mentioned I mainly use singlets as I'm a heavy sweater. Just wearing a t-shirt might do the trick but I don't want to use em because of the lower breathability lol. For now I'm happy with my inov-8 adventure light 15. It's not quite as snug fitting but the absence of chafing alone makes it a much more enjoyable pack to wear for me personally 👍

[@UltraTrailSteven]

@@krilin84 Ah that makes sense then. I see many people wear vests without shirts and I just don't see how! HAHA I would be raw!

[@Aron-t6m]

I think you should have bought the vest a size smaller, it looks a bit too loose

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Not at all. It fits perfectly!

[@patrickbedruz6475]

that trash pocket will store my grinder, papers and ganjah =)

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Hahaha

[@user-choyoungkuk]

Your uploading videos make for a great time. Relieve your stress with 8-minute news in Ukrainian*Europe. R@d Done B0tton. Great Power. 3v

[@UltraTrailSteven]

Ok then