.22 Rifle Velocity - Bolt vs. Semi

[@PaulHarrell]

This was a great video. being able to shoot the ammo from the same gun accounts for a lot of variables.

[@314299]

Thanks. This was really the ideal .22 rifle for the job. I might rerun the same test but with a .22 pistol, just for fun.

[@westcoaster7.62]

That's fascinating, not what I was expecting at all. Great video!

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@rayjay6769]

Like Paul said, this was an awesome video, very well done! Thank you so much for taking the time to do a video and post it up!

[@314299]

Thanks for the positive comment.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

I am really surprised that you got that result, (even though as you say they are to all intents and purposes the same), I notice the sharper crack in semi auto mode due to the breach being back and pressure coming out at the breach end, this implies there must be some loss of power, but as you observe, the projectile has already left the barrel. Another excellent and informative video from you!

[@314299]

+Englishman French Yes, it was noticeably louder when fired Semi-auto due to the mechanical noise of the bolt moving and some residual pressure from the barrel. Blow-back guns are all about timing the mass of the bolt and the power of the springs to insure that the bolt does not open until the bullet has departed the barrel.

[@davidwagner4671]

Great review, I did think the bolt would be faster.

[@regsparkes6507]

+David Wagner Me too, actually.

[@314299]

+David Wagner I think most people assume that power is lost operating the action.

[@rousefire]

Me too .

[@abcertweld]

Best test I've ever seen on KZbin.

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@clems6989]

I would have argued with you over this, had I not seen this video! THANK YOU !

[@314299]

I'm glad to hear the video was convincing in it's arguments. Thanks for the comment.

[@webster7710]

Was not expecting that result. Thanks for teaching me something. Cool gun, too.

[@314299]

+webster7710 The old Stevens is an interesting mechanism.

[@shredders3881]

I would have bet a TON of money that the bolt action shots would be significantly faster. This blows my mind.

[@314299]

I think the result surprised a lot of people. Thanks for commenting.

[@justinhutyler2385]

I was going to do this exact test with the same rifle (a Gamble 27A, actually, but identical) and I thought for sure the semi action MUST take away from the bullets energy. Very well done, thank you.

[@314299]

If you decide to do your version of this test please let us know the results.

[@Sterlingrex]

Using the same Gill gun for the test was absolute key! Great job. Always wondered this!

[@314299]

Thanks. There is a Beretta .22 rifle that could also be used to replicate this test, it can function semi or as a bolt action.

[@MrTruckerf]

Can't beat a click-clack for this type of test. I have several of them: Stevens, Springfield and Savage.

[@CapnSchep]

Great test, I would of lost my bet big time ...!! Interesting rifle, I'd like to see the same test with a Ruger 10-22 vs a standard bolt action ....

[@johnrussell3755]

thank you//you solved my question that was floating in my mind for so many years

[@dalanwanbdiska6542]

Wow thats a pretty awsome 22lr. I got myself a cooey 64b and its apart right now, cleaning and restoring the stock. I used red maple stain and satin clear coat. Ill put it together in the am. I got a 4x weaver scope on a 1 piece rail and its very accurate . At 25 yards i was hitting the same hole when i was setting it. I love cooeys.

[@314299]

Cooey made very good barrels, the key to good accuracy. How do you find your 64B to be as far as reliability? The ones I have had over the years have not been very reliable, even when clean and lightly lubricated. Is your stock one of the walnut ones or the later birch/maple ones?

[@DavidJones-vf3ff]

I’m glad I didn’t bet on the outcome!

[@314299]

A lot of people would have lost a bet on this one!

[@thegiant17]

I was honestly expecting the exact opposite result: A single digit fps loss, but on the semi-auto side. Not enough to make a difference, but certainly present. This was a great video. Thanks for taking the time.

[@314299]

Glad you liked the video, thanks for the comment.

[@stormypole]

One of the most informative video.... you wrestled so many doubts to rest.... put more videos forward....

[@jonc1901]

Thunderbolt is such poor ammo :( Fantastic upload! The only apples to apples comparison of bolt versus semi on KZbin. Great content. Loving the Canadian accent

[@erg0centric]

Thunderbolt is such cheap ammo, but it works fine in my pistol and rifle. And it's half the price at 5¢ Canuckistan.

[@brianharris4275]

What is the exchange rate these days? Great video ,interesting rifle I have never seen one of these. I have a Steven's 270 paid 170$ for it ,super accurate. Same gun as a Savage. Watching that action cycle interesting. People underestimate a 22 to their peril. Thanks again Best Wishes

[@afleetcommand]

Excellent video and really cool old rifle. This is just a shooting adventure you are bringing us along for the ride...and what is most interesting to me is that rifle.

[@314299]

+afleetcommand The old Stevens rifles and their many variants are somewhat overlooked. There are lots of them around and prices are generally reasonable, if you get one in good working order they are great fun to shoot. They come in tube fed like this and detachable box versions as well.

[@BabyStomperKawaii]

I love the "click-clack" sound of my Stevens 87 when firing it rapid.

[@314299]

+Erwin Rommel These rifles usually attract attention at the range due to their unusual sounding actions.

[@homersimpsonii5455]

I have always heard the same thing. Thanks for clearing that up.

[@314299]

+Homer Simpson II I've heard the same thing over the years and I realized I had the perfect rifle to test it out for myself.

[@CLIFFLIX]

FACINATING!...I never would have expected this. That very special gun you have really was the perfect lab tool to do this with. I wonder if this same result hold true for "all" calibers???

[@314299]

Yes, there are not of rifles that lend them selves to this test, but this one certainly was ideal. If these results would be the same for "all" calibers, I think they would for any blow-back or delayed blow-back rifle or pistol. Results might be a bit different with a gas operated firearm as a portion of the gas is diverted to to operate the action, but if there would be a difference I expect it would be quite minor.

[@SinginShooter]

I was not aware that the bolt could be locked. Neat. I was going to see if you would mention different throats, rifling, headspace, etc, that can all affect velocity, but that feature certainly makes this rifle the best candidate for testing. Perhaps in this test, the semi auto mode produced a higher MV since the case is expanded against the chamber walls during some of the bolt travel making it a slightly "longer" barrel and allowing a more complete powder burn.

[@314299]

+HighpowerRifleBrony There may be other .22 semis that can do this, but I can't think of any. An unusual feature.

[@reloader7sixtwo]

+HighpowerRifleBrony I believe Steven's and Savage were the only two rifles with that feature I have an old Savage of the exact same design.

[@jamesmoir7709]

+314299 Shooting Channel my Springfield 87a is exactly the same way. It's just the savage version just licensed though Springfield for about 3-5 years in the late 30s to early 40s. The thing is extremely accurate. I see that yours is like mine with the bolt not releasing forward till you release the trigger. Why do you think this was made that way? Seems odd to me.

[@SinginShooter]

I've heard that some guys hold the bolt closed on their 10/22 (or similar) with their hand to try to get a little bit better consistency. Some even had a hole and pin milled into the receiver like this Model 87. I think it may have been for silhouette style shooting.

[@314299]

+Jimmy M It's just an alternative method of providing a semi-auto dis-onnector, probably a way to not infringe on someone else's patent design and also a way to be different and distinctive from other brands.

[@datapro007]

Fantastic video. Thanks for confirming the negligible difference between the two modes.

[@314299]

Thanks, glad to hear you found it informative.

[@datapro007]

@@314299 Hi - Do you have an accuracy comparison between the two modes? That is the second bolt vs auto psuedo-truth I hear around the gun club.

[@scottmorgan1016]

Great test. I never fired lr thru my 87A with bolt locked. Stamping on barrel says for shorts only. Semi Auto for long and lr. But those old gill guns are neat mine has the tenite stock

[@314299]

An 87 with a Tenite stock is interesting, I've never seen one with that type of stock before. I expect the barrel stamps used changed over time. The stamp on mine says: ".22 SHORT LONG OR LONG RIFLE LONG RIFLE ONLY AS AUTOMATIC" I assume this means it is only supposed to function semi-auto with long rifle ammo but if used with shorts or longs it will be a manual operated gun, either locking the bolt closed or just using it as a "straight pull" bolt action.

[@scottmorgan1016]

@@314299 that's exactly what's stamped on my barrel. I did a video on mine a few years back. Tried to do one the other day showing the old click clack in action on the bolt. My camera works stinks and didn't work. I was told that in late 40s they started with tenite stocks on shotguns. But they could handle recoil and would crack, so they put on 22s only

[@Me2Lancer]

Enjoyed this fascinating presentation. I would have assumed the locked breech would have given a higher velocity. Your empirical test set the record straight even if statistically insignificant. Thanks!

[@314299]

Thanks for the feedback. There are not many rifles that would allow such a direct comparison.

[@Me2Lancer]

Ironically, my son-in-law just acquired an old Stevens semi-auto like this from his brother, one he and his brother had as kids. Now it will be shared with the next generation.

[@314299]

That's great! Always nice to have a rifle with some family history.

[@alvinb1959]

I've been saying for years part of the gas was lost in actioning the bolt, if I had bet on the end results, I would have lost. Thanks for the test...oh...I did not consider it a non-thrilling video...I was literally sitting on edge of my chair awaiting the results.

[@chrisbaker2543]

excellent video , I can not think of a more definitive way to answer that question , well done

[@314299]

+chris Baker Thanks. It seemed like the perfect rifle for the job.

[@ldwithrow08]

I always found that Stevens model distracting in that it doesn't return to battery until you release the trigger. Don't know of any other semi that does that. I never really saw any difference in velocity. I just like a nice slick bolt action.

[@314299]

The unusual action takes some getting used to.

[@legacy1776sibes]

Lawrence Withrow There's another that does that which was made by Hi-standard for Sears & Roebuck. J.C. Higgins model 25

[@mattsoper4120]

Excellent scientific experiment, taking into account the variables involved. Thanks for posting!

[@314299]

Thank you. The rifle seemed like the perfect way to test this out.

[@GooseGosselin]

As always, a great video. Interesting and well done. Thank you.

[@314299]

+Goose's Channel Glad you liked it, thanks for the feedback.

[@carlohakens3333]

I'm new to rifles and thanks to your video I realized that my Krico is a semi-auto and not a bolt-action one. 😅 Great, informative video. 😊

[@314299]

I'm glad you found the video useful, thanks for commenting.

[@Top10GameplayTrailers]

Very Helpful and unexpected results, Thanks

[@314299]

Thanks for the feedback, thanks for watching.

[@mgee669]

that was a lot of fun to watch this I've always wondered if removable barrels that must come off for cleaning, if they change the point of impact when a scope is used once the barrel is installed examples would be the nylon 66 Remington 552 Winchester 77..... The Marlin papoose

[@mgee669]

By the way I grew up with a clickety clack the very same type of what we also called a" gill" gun" The Savage model 6 aka Springfield187J do yourself a favor and use Grease as I wore out the plungers it's easier to just put grease on the bottom of the bolt there is a lot of pressure as it rides on the bolt on that sharp edge which rises up and down and releases the firing pin when you push the charging handle down to lock up the bolt you are very fortunate to have an extractor and ejector that works well not all of them do!

[@314299]

Yes generally there will be some point of impact change when a barrel is removed and reinstalled, however it is not usually a big one if the gun is in good shape. It generally only takes a few shots to get the rifle zeroed in again.

[@mgee669]

Thanks for the info!

[@anzov1n]

Thanks for performing this test. Very useful information and quite surprising. If there was a way to do an apples to apples comparison of a true bolt action design vs a semi-auto that would be interesting to see as well (somehow attach the same exact barrel to 2 different actions).

[@314299]

I dont see how such a test would be any different that what I did with this test - operated in the manual mode the bolt handle locks the bolt shut just as tightly as a bolt action.

[@anzov1n]

Fair enough, I thought the locking mechanisms being different would have an effect on the seal.

[@strydyrhellzrydyr1345]

@@314299 I still feel this isn't a real bolt rifle.. like he is saying... I'm sure you don't consider it to be a True bolt action rifle as well... Which is all I think his point was...

[@jeffferguson7256]

very informative as usual . thanks again for a great vid

[@314299]

+jeff ferguson Thanks for the comment.

[@rodgunn2621]

Fascinating. I'd actually like to see more data to determine if the semi-auto is consistently faster. Now that would be a real mind blower.

[@314299]

Statically the difference between the two modes of operation is insignificant.

[@medmeks205]

Tenho um 1015 semi altomatico preciso de um carregador alguém pode mi ajudar por favor

[@MeyersCTR]

I am now educated enough to venture an informed opinion on the subject and give reasons. Refreshing

[@314299]

Sounds like a good outcome to me.

[@deniscleaver7544]

Thank you very much. Worthwhile info here. so many variables to contend with with factory ammo, especially .22 LR. Until one shoots match grade like Wolff, Sk, RWS and especially Eley. These guys really humm along. Also, match target rifles like CZ, with tight chambers can make a world of differences in bullet speed.

[@314299]

I think shooting expensive match ammo would be a bit of a waste in a light semi-auto sporting rifle like the one in the video, especially with the rather basic sights it has.

[@cynthiamoon372]

I’m going to use this video to finally win my argument that a semi-auto does not reduce the velocity of the projectile. Some “old experts” keep telling me that a bolt action is the best way to get the maximum velocity available from a cartridge. Barrel length, of course is a factor, but this video tested the same rifle with, obviously one barrel length. Glad I watched this video ... it was not boring.

[@314299]

My experience in trying to "win" an argument with some people is that it does not matter how much proof you show them, they believe whatever they already do. Best of luck with that!

[@cynthiamoon372]

I know what you mean. Somewhere along the way, opinions become facts. And we all know, facts can’t be changed.

[@apredws6]

I have my grandpa's Stevens surprising how accurate it is

[@314299]

They are pretty decent for accuracy. The long barrel gives a good sight radius and that helps.

[@TheCrathes]

Are you sure about your explanation about heat transfer? It doesn't really make all that much sense to me that there is somehow more heat created on firing a bolt action than in a semi-auto. The energy in a recoil is kinetic and isn't all that easily transformed into heat energy (happens by friction e.g.). It seems more reasonable that the energy used by a semi-auto is simply translated into a slightly heavier recoil against your shoulder (i.e. kinetic energy transfer) in a bolt action. That's in accordance with what Mr.Newtons famous saying: "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". EDIT: I'm not trying to be wiseass! I'm just curious :)

[@richardbadish6990]

TheCrathes he was referring to the heat of the barrel causing variations in the bullet velocity. He was being fair in case the test that was done last had a higher or lower velocity due to the heat. So he shot them in a different order, just to be fair. 22s don't get very hot. But heat does effect bullet trajectory. As does a cold barrel. So he shot both designs cold and both designs hot/warm.

[@Anon.Emouse]

Interesting old rifle. I've never seen a Semi Auto that functions like that where the bolt is not returned to battery until the trigger is released.

[@314299]

+Michael Streeter The Stevens is is unique (as far as i know) with this action.

[@m33tballa]

Now i could be wrong, but from my understanding, gases are still being diverted into the rifles gas system, and the breach is being forcefully locked. So youd have a loss of gas regardless of which mode ud be shooting in. A true test of bullet velocity would require both a semi auto and a true blow back.

[@314299]

This rifle IS a blow back, there isn't any gas system. I am not aware of any .22lr semi-auto that have a gas system, all are just plain blowback.

[@SamEEE12]

On an unrelated note: Choose your adversary. Hand to hand combat. 100 duck sized horses or 1 horse sized duck.

[@314299]

+SamEEE12 I think a horse size duck sounds more hazardous.

[@afleetcommand]

+SamEEE12 Imagine what a horse sized duck's egg would look like in the frying pan...

[@fppro1679]

Kudos. Well worth watching!, Do you have a video on the relative accuracy of each gun, at given distances from say 75 to 150 to 200 yd?

[@314299]

Thanks for the comment. I'm not sure what you mean by "relative accuracy of each gun" as there was only one used in the video. As for the accuracy of this Stevens 87 I have not posted any accuracy testing video's with it.

[@waynesmith7650]

sure straightened my old head out. great presentation. thanks

[@jimeckenrode1271]

Very interesting. I have never seen a rifle like that either so this was all new to me.

[@314299]

They are a rather unusual action, I cant think of any other manufacturer that used something similar.

[@CROSSFIRE_TACTICS_SOFIA]

Great video. This is the answer of many questions. Great job!!

[@SamEEE12]

Interesting! I wonder what the effect would be with a lighter bolt. I can say light bolt .22 target pistols seem to foul a little more than heavier bolt ones. More unburnt powder perhaps.

[@314299]

+SamEEE12 Lighter bolts most likely open a bit faster and therefore more pressure is present to blow debris back into the action.

Oh, I love that .22LR Stevens 87 rifle. Would love to find one.

[@314299]

They made a lot of these rifles so you should eventually be able to find one for sale.

[@viniciovp4ever]

THIS is what I was searching for difference between semi and bolt action 22lr rifles! AWESOME job, mate. I was thinking about buying a bolt action, thinking on speed, but after this, ir seems useless. Maybe I still buy bolt action, thinking on reliability, but having in mind that it makes no more "powerful" than a semi auto model.

[@314299]

Glad you found the video useful.

[@thefiringpin8813]

Fascinating stuff, thanks for the video!

[@314299]

+The Firing Pin Glad you enjoyed it.

[@joehunt1980]

Wow that is one nice stock on your Stevens! Most that I have seen locally have had such a hard life that the forward bedding in the stock has failed and everything rattles around with no hope of getting any accuracy.

[@314299]

+joehunt1980 I dont think this one saw quite as much use as most did. The stock does appear to have been refinished at some point.

[@rogercarrico4975]

I'm just very surprised. Doesn't make sense. But the proof is in the pudding as they say. Thank you very much for posting this. Answered a lot if questions for me!👍

[@314299]

Glad you found it informative, thanks for the comment.

[@keithfreeman5204]

Looks like the barrel "heat" is the different. With the auto the barrel heats up. Less time between each shot. With the bolt,the time between shots is just a little slower. Less heat into the barrel.

[@314299]

I agree that the thermal component is the key to why the shots dont have any significant statistical difference in velocity. However I believe it is mostly due to the heat that gets into the brass cases - in the case of semi operation brass is quickly ejected before it gets time for the heat it contains to be absorbed into the chamber area as opposed to when the rifle is manually operated the heat in the brass has time to transfer to the chamber.

[@efrendaniel4486]

Thanks for the very clear and informative video. Now i might choose semi auto.

[@314299]

I'm glad you liked the video, thanks for the feedback.

[@DiegoGonzalez-pp3fs]

It would be great if you can compare accuracy, in both semi & bolt modes.

[@314299]

I could probably shoot better groups with it in "semi" mode as I would not have to break my position between shots. That's an idea for a video, thanks.

[@grifdenton5224]

The hold open mechanism and vented receiver look just like a Sears Model 25

[@314299]

They are quite similar but as I understand it the Sears 25 was made by High Standard for Sears, and the parts are not interchangeable with the Stevens rifles.

[@billymcfuggin7549]

Learn something new every dern day. Thanks for sharing, very interesting

[@314299]

You are welcome.

[@mckwilly]

interesting action, as you reset trigger allows bolt forward

[@314299]

+MCKwilly It's an unusual way of of providing the semi -auto disconnect for the rife.

[@DiegoGonzalez-pp3fs]

An excellent test, you used the appropiated rifle for this task. As far as I can see, the only advantage of using the rifle in "bolt" mode, is noice reduction.

[@314299]

There are a few situations where the "bolt action" mode may prove useful. It allows you to use low power loads that might jam the rifle if use in "semi" mode (22 shot loads, CB longs, standard velocity shorts). Also it makes it easier to single load the rifle which is useful when training a new shooter.

[@scotttilson2747]

The bold action is more reliable but both are good.

[@314299]

Yes, generally a bolt action 22 is somewhat more reliable than a semi, but most semi 22 rifles are sufficiently reliable if kept clean and properly lubricated.

[@jdblackwell2]

I can accept that for .22lr but .22WRM is another story. Most SA magnums spit burning powder out the breech which smacks of reduced muzzle velocity. It's one reason Ruger discontinued the 10/22 magnum. Savage's A22 Magnum with its delayed blowback gimmick failed to cure the problem as well. In my perfect world a side charging .22WRM upper with a locking AR type bolt would function like a straight pull bolt rifle. More efficient and way faster than a conventional bolt.

[@314299]

There is a lot of un-burned powder from .22 LR as well. I'm not aware of any .22 Magnum that can be operated as a single shot or semi like the Stevens used in the video, but I expect the results would be basically identical if one could find such a rifle in 22 Mag as all the factors are identical. Slower burning powder, etc. makes no difference as bullets have exited the barrel before the breech is open.

[@MegaBait1616]

good test also a real nice looking old Savage- Stevens rifle " steel n wood".

[@314299]

+MegaBait56 I had the Stevens out this afternoon and put a few rounds downrange, it works well and is plenty accurate. I mounted a vintage scope on the rifle and got it roughly sighted in. Was too windy to do any video, unfortunately.

[@MegaBait1616]

you have a good channel i been watching and subbed ya.

[@314299]

+MegaBait56 Thanks.

[@mattefinnish8411]

Interesting rifle. I've never seen a semi auto cycle so slowly. Thanks

[@314299]

These old Stevens rifles are somewhat unusual in that they don't complete the loading cycle until you release the trigger, that's what makes them appear to be so slow operating.

[@greg6162]

@@314299 that’s an interesting 22 LR you got. I would equate the FPS/FPE on barrel length and possibly the twist rate, but more so a longer barrel would yield higher FPS. Good video

[@AustralianShootingChannel]

Nice one! Canadian Mythbusters hahaha! Cheers, ASC.

[@314299]

+Australian Shooting Channel I'm busy answering those questions no one bothers to ask....

[@AustralianShootingChannel]

hahahaha It's a great niche to be in apparently. Keep it up mate :)

[@blueovalfan23]

got the same rifle sorta, a rebrand that that was sold by sears. it's a good little plinker. mine has seen better days though. you have a nice rifle buddy.

[@314299]

+blueovalfan23 I've seen the ones sold by Sears, they have a Sears catalog number on them that many folks mistake for a serial number.

[@blueovalfan23]

314299 Shooting Channel yeah, mine i think was made in the 40's. thing was rough when i got it and not much better now. it works but previous owners weren't that good to it. the stock looked like they used that think black fence paint on it and varnished over it. this hid the repairs made on it with what looks like jb weld. they also stripped the coating off the metal. then my dad got it and left it for a good 20 years unfired. he eventually gave it to me. it was in really bad shape by then with surface rusting on the barrel and the moving parts rusted shut/stuck. i done what i could with it and it's a good rifle but it'll never win a beauty contest. had to used a board and mallet to get the bolt open. i took it apart after soaking it with wd and it cleaned it with a wire brush. once i got it working good, i used trublu on it to completely reblue it in my kitchen and sanded the stock down after using a chemical stripper on it. think it was some sort of aircraft stripper. got it smoothed out and put a heavy coat of walnut stain on it to again help hide the problems. you can see the jb weld but and where i had to glue the stock after a mishap i had with it cracked the stock (fell while leaning against my truck). all in all it turned out better than it probably should have. it surprisingly shoots straight and cycles reliably till you put a couple hundred rounds of lead heads through it.

[@314299]

+blueovalfan23 Well done on saving that rifle - there is something satisfying about "rescuing" a rifle from ruin. I once fixed up a Stevens 85 (the box mag version of the 87), when I got it the stock was broken into seven pieces. It took me a few hours to piece it all back together and there were a few missing chunks that got filled with epoxy. When I was done I had a strong but ugly stock, so I did my best to hid the repairs and ended up with what most people thought was a synthetic stock. It ended up being a good reliable and accurate rifle.

[@regsparkes6507]

Well a couple of observations on this. First; I was wrong ! I thought for sure that the bolt action would mean a higher F.P.S. Secondly; That is a rifle I have never seen or even heard of before. What a great 'testing' rifle as you have proved here. I am pleasantly surprised that the semi auto. rifles are certainly not any slower, in fact faster, somewhat. This was NOT a boring video. ( Oh my, I did not intend that to be a pun, haha. ) It is really good, at least to me, to have this sorted out., and the age old question answered. Thanks very much.

[@314299]

+Reg Sparkes Subjects I find interesting don't always appeal to others so I'm glad you found it interesting too.

[@regsparkes6507]

+314299 Shooting Channel I like to learn everything I can on subjects that interest me, I was not disappointed with this. Cheers!

Ok, I understand the comparison test you did here. And learned about heat transfer. Cool. Question; is there an accuracy issue, bolt action vs. semi-auto. As to the cycling of the bolt in the semi-auto? Since I understand that the bullet has left the barrel before any significant movements of the bolt, or is that the case?? Thank you for your time, and videos.

[@314299]

I've not noticed any difference that I could detect in accuracy with this rifle in semi vs bolt modes. As you say the bullet is out the muzzle before any significant bolt movement has occurred.

[@bertusbredenhann7215]

Educational video thanks for posting it, interesting little rifle

[@314299]

Glad you liked it, thanks for commenting.

[@chrismoody1342]

That Stevens click clack is odd in semi auto.

[@314299]

They are certainly different.

[@chevy6299]

Even thou both ways are the same results the fact semi-auto was 3 or 4 FPS faster each time makes me lean that way. I liked how the bolt stayed open until you released the trigger.

[@314299]

+chevy6299 It makes it easy to see if you have any ammo left.

[@chevy6299]

+314299 Shooting Channel LOL didn't think of that. :)

[@ironsulfide82]

Wow, this is a great and informative video with good use of scientific method. If a similar rifle is made in higher calibers, do you think the results would be different? Also, would you do a similar video but this time using a heat gun instead of a chronograph to test your heat energy theory.

[@314299]

I think the results would be the same with a bigger round ( like a 9x19mm blowback ). I cant think of any bigger caliber blow back firearms that can be locked shot so I'm not sure how one would test them. As for heat measuring the heat of fired cases I dont have an equipment to do so, other than picking up the empties with my hands and feeling the difference in temperature.

[@ironsulfide82]

I was just curious how larger calibers would be different, I never knew there were rifles out there that could be fired as bolt action and semiautomatic until I saw this video. Also had not thought to measure the temp of the casing but that is a good idea. I was thinking about using a non contact laser thermometer to measure the temp of the barrel. I can send you one if you want to give me an address or PO box, or if you have a Harbor Freight near you, they are about $30.

[@bigusdickus8596]

I wonder if the energy that would have gone into cycling the action just becomes recoil instead.

[@314299]

+Reid Merrill That would be easy enough to test - chronograph the rifle from the shoulder, then try it with it against something "immovable" to see if there is any difference.

[@oldgandy5355]

Great video. Will provide subject matter for those shooters who gather at the local pub to argue about whether a bear can beat up a mountain lion.!!

[@314299]

I must admit I've never witnessed a "bear can beat up a mountain lion" argument.

[@oldgandy5355]

@@314299 I've witnessed a couple. Both started in fun. One ended when the bar closed. The other one I left when some ignoramus suggested a wolverine could beat either one. Keeps the bar warm when the firewood runs out.

[@saysbadman]

Great video! I also thought a bolt action would would have been faster. Ive heard that a longer barrel lends to a higher velocity because the gas expansion has more time to propel the bullet. Kind of like the fastest the bullet will ever go is at the tip of the barrel, but after that it is slowing down. So does the action extend the area the gas can expand (ever so slightly) enough to offset the energy needed to cycle the action plus give it a negligible velocity increase? Thank you for the food for thought.

[@314299]

A longer barrel does give more velocity, up to a point. A round such as the .22LR has very little powder in it so it does not need much barrel to get all the "push" that is possible from the small powder charge. At the other end of the scale a magnum rifle round has quite a lot of powder in it and the velocity gains from longer barrel length is significant. The reason there was no significant difference between the velocity of the round using the different "modes" of operation is that the bullet has left the barrel long before the action cycles (when used as a semi).

[@johnkendall6962]

For most standard .22LR about 16-18 in is all you need for the most velocity longer barrels can actually slow the bullet down.

[@marttimattila9561]

Is that White Snow. I would like to know how it is with closed bolt semiauto.

[@314299]

Yes, there is some snow on the ground. Your second sentence confuses me. I have to assume it is a question even though it is missing a question mark. The Stevens 87 rifle used in the video IS a closed bolt semi auto. It does not fire from the open bolt. The bolt stays open after each shot as part of the disconnect system, once the trigger is released the bolt closes, and only then can the trigger be pulled again to fire a shot. If I missed the point of what you were saying please elaborate further.

[@hawkeyeinthehouse2995]

That was a VERY INTERESTING EXPERIMENT, KUDOS to you. I'm a very scientific person and know there's science to EVERYTHING. I would have thought the bolt action mode would have been HIGHER but you did a good job of explaining the outcome.😉😁👍

[@314299]

Thanks for the feedback. Have a great day!

[@dixiepan8538]

It would be interesting to test accuracy difference off the bench with a scope.

[@dixiepan8538]

I believe that the gasses used to cycle that action are still wasted in the locked bolt mode, it should be compared to a different rifle.

[@314299]

Please explain how you think that the "gasses used to cycle that action are still wasted in the locked bolt mode".

[@dixiepan8538]

I stand corrected, you would think that the gasses used to open the bolt if applied to propel the bullet would add to the velocity, however the design of the total package allows the bolt to open which happens after the bullet has left the barrel.

[@jeffr3773]

Nice. Surprising results. Next question would be, is a suppressed 22 bolt action with subsonics really quieter than a suppressed semi with subsonics.

[@314299]

Since I can't own suppressors where I live I'll have to leave that test to someone else. However there is quite a bit of noise from the action cycling on a 22, and apparently also a bit of a "pop" noise from residual pressure from when the case is ejected, so the bolt action should be quieter.

[@leonelliott5090]

Very interesting, but hard to say much about statistical significance when your sample size is only 40 rounds.

[@314299]

Are you a statistician? I'm not but I think the sample size was enough to show the basic trend. I suspect if one fired a thousand rounds the difference in results would not be all that different. If you (or someone else) is willing to donate the money for the ammo I'll do a 500 round test!

[@leonelliott5090]

Even if I had a rifle that would shoot both ways, I probably wouldn't spend the time or money to do a large test. But I'd guess the ammo manufacturers know, since they run test groups on their batch lots. Would they tell us if we asked? Aren't you curious why the effect you found is true? I am. What if a thousand rounds showed that the semi-auto was consistently faster? What would explain that? Since your theory involves heat dissipation, what would happen when the rifle got really hot? And would progressive barrel fouling affect it? Very interesting.@@314299

[@nickrupp2336]

Really cool test. Very informative.

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@KasperRung]

Thank you for the test and the video. You are assuming that as long as the bolt isn't moving, there is no gas escaping other than out the barrel. Can you confirm this happens to be the case? I'd love to see the internals of the gun. I am writing this as it is not the case with my 935 Mossberg shotgun. If I had a way to fix the bolt, there would still bleed some gasses from the overflow route.

[@314299]

+Kasper Rung Being blowback operated the Stevens 87 rifle has no gas port, so when the bolt is pushed in to the locked position there is no place for the powder gas to go other than down the barrel behind the bullet. Your Mossberg 935 is gas operated and therefore bleeds a small portion of the gasses off the barrel to operate the action. If you were to chronograph shells fired in your 935 with those fired in a Mossberg 535 pump gun (assuming both had the same length barrel and choke) I doubt you would find much difference in speed as the amount of propellant gases used to operate the action is not very significant.

[@KasperRung]

Thank you for your answer. Now I know how a blow back system works 😊

[@awatcher3550]

Maybe the bolt still bounces and loses pressure - it just doesn’t hold the cocked position. I need to see a proper bolt action with proven high velocity vs a semi with same spec barrels to believe what your results show.

[@314299]

OK lets look at your points one by one. "Maybe the bolt still bounces and loses pressure" The bolt does not "bounce" when it is in the locked position, it is locked, steel to steel, as firmly as any bolt action. The steel bolt handle passes thru the bolt body out the the left side into a hole in the steel receiver. "it just doesn’t hold the cocked position." Clearly the the gun does not perform the same as when in semi mode as it is locked shut in the bolt action one. To be technical about it when the rifles striker/firing pin is held back by the sear it is "cocked", this function is the same regardless of if the gun is shot as a bolt action or a semi. If you are referring to the hesitation of the bolt when fired semi that is because when the trigger is pulled the bolt is being held back until the trigger is released, that is this designs way of disconnecting to prevent full auto. When operated as a bolt action the bolt is being cycled without the trigger being held back so the disconnect does not come into play and the bolt does not do it's hesitation thing. As for testing a "proper" bolt action vs a semi, you would actually have to use the exact same barrel, not just one of the same specs, as two barrels made to the same specs will be different enough to give different results. If you want to do this please make a video and share as I'd be interested to see your results.

[@deadparrothead3175]

Always wondered if there was a difference. Very well done Sir! Now, I wonder if one would get the same results with larger center fires? Say Di vs. piston driven vs. bolt action. I'd say bolts would have to be faster due to the semi auto's gas system. Oh what a can o worms to open up! Lol!

[@314299]

I've considered that one myself. It would require a rifle with a gas cut off so that manual and self loading operation could be tested.

[@BradYaeger]

Well I would have lost that bet. And I would assume that also applies to larger calibers?

[@314299]

I would assume the results would be the same with a bigger caliber. I have thought of trying the same test with a center fire gas operated semi auto.

[@markbarber7839]

I didn't know that. Thanks for the video !

[@314299]

No problem, thanks for watching and commenting.

[@sunrise1776]

I have a 87a when the chamber is locked closed with a long rifle the caseing sweles and the extractor won't pull out the spent round? This doesn't happen when the chamber is not locked closed any ideas. Other than that glitch the rifle functions perfect.

[@314299]

Sounds like the gun has excessiuve head space when used as a single shot, I can think of a few possible reasons: 1) When the gun was made the locking cut for the bolt handle was cut too far back and the bolt does not lock far enough forward. 2) The bolt handle is worn or a poorly fitted replacement and causes excess play when "locked". 2) The barrel has moved forward from where it should be in the receiver. Those are my best guesses without having looked at the rifle. I proper qualified gunsmith would be the best person to consult.

[@sunrise1776]

@@314299 thanks for the response I have an excellent gunsmith but there isn't a problem until the chamber is locked closed.

[@314299]

@@sunrise1776 When you use it as a semi the recoil spring would keep the bolt closed against the back of the barrel, but it appears that the bolt handle is keeping the bolt rearward too far for correct headspace. Probably not worth the effort and expense of fixing if it works fine as a semi.

[@sunrise1776]

@@314299 yes if its not broken don't fix it.

[@R.K.Chowdhury]

Great video Thank You...

[@MusicalInterferences]

Epic explanation dude. Just a couple of years later I note...😂

[@314299]

Better late than never!

[@buckdive]

Does the gas still try to blow the bolt back do you have a true bolt action to do the test again

[@314299]

The bolt is firmly locked against opening with the bolt handle in the locked position, it is locked just as securely as with a proper bolt action.

[@thomasszmidt2469]

Great experiment!

[@314299]

Thanks, glad to hear you liked it.

[@ShahryarSaigol]

Bolt action should give you a bigger recoil than semiauto. The semi has a smaller felt recoil on your shoulder because the bolt movement has absorbed some of the energy.

[@314299]

Semi's do change the type of recoil impulse. Physics dictate that the shooter will get pushed back no matter the type of action, but often the action of a semi will spread the impulse out over a longer period giving the perception of less recoil.

[@KS-gc8lh]

New subscriber. This vid was all it took. Enjoyed watching. Just out of curiosity...do you know why they gave it the bolt action feature? Doesn't seem to lend any real benefit except for maybe the safety factor while teaching new shooters marksmanship skills.

[@314299]

+K S Harris I suspect it was so that the gun could be used with any power level of .22 ammo. With sufficiently powerful ammo, such as .22 LR high velocity, the gun works fine as a semi-auto. With weaker ammo like .22 longs or .22 shorts the gun might jam if used as a semi but could be reliably operated as a "bolt action" with these rounds. That's my guess anyway.

[@regisshea554]

Another assumption to this old thread is that in some states you cannot operate a semi 22 for hunting (PA), (Squirrel), etc. Maybe the bolt locking feature allows this gun to be used? Interesting to know!

[@ryanmekkes5239]

Great video! I’m new to this. I’ve heard bolt actions might be more accurate than semi autos? Is this true of the 22lr?

[@314299]

The accuracy potential of 22 bolt actions and semis is realistically the same The only thing that may make bolt actions shoot a little better is the more gentle feeding of the rounds compared to the sudden feed cycle of the semi which has more potential to deform the bullets and therefore hurt accuracy. .

[@ryanmekkes5239]

@@314299 thank you! Got it!

[@Hermann-lz2jb]

Excellent video as always. I was wondering what your gun laws were considering things like machine guns or artillery, is it just something that is not allowed in Canada or is there a way to own them? Thanks.

[@314299]

+Herman2416 There are "grandfathered" owners of full autos in Canada, but no new individuals have been allowed to obtain full auto firearms since 1979. There are museums and movie rental business that are permitted full auto with special license. As for artillery I believe they are treated like firearms, and a regular firearms license would suffice.

[@Hermann-lz2jb]

314299 Shooting Channel Thats very unfortunate for you guys, hopefully someday it will change. I cant imagine anybody committing a crime with a expensive machine gun when you could get cheap illegal firearms on the black market.

[@mehyoulldo]

i have a springfield version of this rifle and it seems to have a custom homemade bolt knob, it has a huge problem cycling and jams constantly . what do you think it could be

[@314299]

+pontiac.dk The feeding system/lifter is made of stamped steel, if these parts get bent then the gun stops working properly. Apparently not easy to get right again.

[@Stray03]

+pontiac.dk Home made knob may be the problem too. Check to see if it is dragging on anything. There is a ball detent on the original to keep it from moving left and right.

[@314299]

+Stray03 Good point. Also if the home made one is super large the extra mass added to the moving parts might be part of the issue.

[@bhardwaajmohabir9147]

Very nice thank you for showing it on you tube have a nice day 🙂

[@314299]

Thanks for the comment.

[@jamesvolo7948]

Thank you. Great explanation.

[@314299]

You are welcome!