220: The Madness of Devin Williams -- Roll On

When Devin Williams left on a routine trip in his 18-wheeler, he never could have known he'd end up in a national park in one of Arizona's most enduring mysteries.
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[@adriel7229]

Loved the episode and analysis. I'm a truck driver and about 10 minutes in I was saying he was a driver having a mental health crisis whether due to mental illness or drug use. It's nice of Alice to consider the best possible scenario for Devin here but I think Brett's theory is most likely, that he tried speed for the first time to complete his long run. Speed was extremely common in trucking in the 90s. Drivers were still using paper logbooks and it was easy to cheat them to maximize their productivity, whether for their own profit or due to pressure from their companies. The electronic logs we use now force us to comply with hours-of-service laws regulating how much time we can spend driving and how much we must spend resting but before ~2010 the lack of accountability for accurate logbooks meant there was immense pressure on drivers to stay awake and drive far more than the legal limit or what their bodies could handle. It was common for them to use speed to stay awake. It was a big problem. When I was in training they showed us a video of a driver high on speed who had been awake for days and was in a police chase through the northern Rockies. It was sad to watch his break from reality as evidenced in his driving behavior. If something similar was happening to Devin he would have been aware enough of his surroundings to negotiate the difficult roads of the national park but maybe not aware enough to avoid the park in the first place and stay on the highways where he belonged. One more thought: my cousin developed type 1 diabetes around the age of 30. He had always been healthy before. Diabetes, CO poisoning, sleep deprivation, and drugs (legal or illegal) are all possibilities, but given the time and circumstances I would think drug use is most likely.

[@Robinthesocialworker]

this was a really great comment. i liked yout insight about the speed issue in the 90s. I agree with everything you said and it seems to be the most likely. poor guy

[@brittanyanne6711]

I’d like to pick your brain about something, since you’re a truck driver as well. The area that Devin went through is off of the I-40, but the path he seems to take is to try and make it through Payson and Showlow through to New Mexico. However, like Brett mentioned, Kingman to Payson is somewhat off the best path if he’s trying to get through the state quickly. I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t continue on the I-40 even if he took stimulants. If he did take drugs, would he have tried to stay on adjacent highways rather than the interstate on purpose? Is that something that a driver would do to prevent being caught, despite losing time? I was also thinking of the sleep deprivation angle and how that could affect his path. What do drivers typically do if they find themselves in an unfamiliar area? If you get lost, is it best practice to backtrack to a more recognizable route or would you continue to push forward for the sake of time?

[@juniorjohnson5961]

I'm 70 & remember the 90s well speed was everywhere i had friends who were truckers in Canada that were taking speed they called them Winnipeg turnaround meaning they could drive from Toronto to Winnipeg & back without sleeping. Speed was everywhere even mother was given it. I think your comment is spot on .

[@laurieclarkson9180]

I have experience with several things that it may have been. #1--Lack of Sleep is something so incredibly dangerous! I have struggled with Insomnia and one time I was awake for 4 days another time 6 days. I progressively got worse and the last two days of the 6 day stretch, I was pretty much immobile and Day 3-4 I was throwing up. Hallucinations and confusion. It was hard to sleep. #2--I had severe Dehydration once and I never even realized that was what was happening to me. I was at a concert and thought "Whoa, I'm so drunk" but then I realized..while I usually did partake in drinking at concerts, I did not drink any beer that day and then I realized that I didn't drink anything at all. It was scary. I was confused, couldn't find my car, started barfing but I wasn't thirsty at all. #3--Minor Carbon Monoxide poisoning. I worked in healthcare which means that when it snows and you have to work, you must be there. I got to work the shift prior just to make sure I was there before the storm got too bad and had the dumb idea to try to nap in my car. It was running and snow covered the windows and the snow came down so fast. I got more and more tired but every time I tried to get comfortable, I just couldn't sleep. It was weirdest thing, being sooo tired but feelings of anxiety and restlessness at the same time. Luckily, I gave up and decided to turn the car off and head into work to sleep on a couch in the lobby. I was stunned at how much snow was outside. It was nearly covering my tail pipe and hard to open my door. Out of these 3 things, lack of sleep was probably the scariest and more in line with how Devin was behaving. The longer you're awake, the harder it is to sleep. People can actually die from lack of sleep. There is also caffeine poisoning. We live in a society where people brag about lack of sleep. That needs to stop. You're damaging your brain.

[@mevv]

The caffeine pill theory is interesting. I took some once when I was like 18 and was jacked up all night talking to myself. Definitely not something I expected, because I was already a caffeine drinker and never had a reaction like that before.

[@hollyhendershotsmith1679]

Great episode! As someone who started having panic attacks suddenly, several years ago, i can definitely believe Alice's last theory. The balance we walk is delicate.

[@annikaenloe9231]

Quick clarification: Tonto National Forest is not a national park, and there are often logging/thinning crews and fire crews with large trucks on those forest roads. It’s not normal to see a semi, but (while unpaved) the roads aren’t hiking trails. Plenty of folks use the roads within Tonto NF for over landing and off-roading with trucks, ATVs, side-by-sides, you name it. This is not a national park with harsh vehicle restrictions; typically the biggest rule is just to stay on marked forest roads.

[@kelly60118]

Thank you this drove me nuts

[@CLin-fe8xb]

I like the drug theory. Devin couldn’t sleep but maybe he still felt drowsy and took a drug (maybe first time) to help him be alert so he could continue driving. The “they” he was saying made him do it could have been his employer and he felt this way because this long haul was what they wanted him to do and he liked shorter hauls .

[@VTPSTTU]

I kept waiting for an owl.

[@mattington3001]

Listening to this episode while I’m drinking an 18 wheeler on a long trip. Makes it even more creepy.

[@MisterCatLady]

Sleep deprivation is a powerful thing. To quote the Melissa McCarthy comedy, Identity Thief: “I drive drunk all the time. First time I sleep-drove I slammed right into an Arby’s”.

[@hollyhendershotsmith1679]

Aliens?!?! Nobody puts Aliens in a corner!

[@rlynng1999]

After hearing how hard you guys work and stay up late to record ads, I decided to try to support that by purchasing some Earthbreeze...only it says 404 page not found. I want to make sure you get credit for your ads! Love your podcast btw...LOTS of hard work apparently goes into these.🥰

[@shaestewart5261]

I hate to break it to you, Brett, but it’s already been done! If you have never checked out Resolved Mysteries, which you obviously have not, you’re in for a real treat! Unfortunately, the fantastic young ladies, who took on such a venerable project, did not finish it. This was not because they didn’t want to, it was only because it’s a huge endeavor, and they had other things going on in their lives that took precedence over it. However, as far as I know, the old episodes are still out there for your listening pleasure! Definitely check it out! Essentially, they break down every episode, and then try to figure out if anything else came of the unsolved mystery since it was reported on the show. I’m not ashamed to admit that I actually went through the grieving process when the girls decided to end the show.

[@MisterCatLady]

There are a few Unsolved-Mysteries-based podcasts. The Trail Went Cold was the podcast that got me into true crime many years ago. It was so original at the time.

[@shaestewart5261]

Duh…how could I forget! I listen to The Trail Went Cold and The Path Went Chilly regularly.

[@trucrimeluver]

Great presentation! Thank you 😊

[@The_Raevyn]

Could he have been sleepwalking/sleep-driving...or some kind of dream-like state. So he was finally "sleeping", yet awake? It would explain the non-sensical talking. Ever hear someone talk in their sleep? It could be bonkers! Also, people can do a multitude of (strange) things when sleepwalking, appearing totally awake. Then death by misadventure...in a dream-like state induced by something he took --and this was how it affected him. Or prior TBI kicking in. This reminds me of Elisa Lam crossed with Brandon Lawson.

[@dodgeramsport01]

The UFO theory fits the story better than anything else!

[@Chris-Alia]

5:50 THERE ALREADY is that Podcast. It’s called Re-solved Mysteries. They go over every case in order from beginning with updates!

[@Shmaples]

Does anyone else have issues with this episode on Spotify? Im so glad i found it on youtube because it just wont work on Spotify. Other podcasts work but not this one. Soooo odd!

[@Glorindellen]

I had prolonged exposure to carbon monoxide over a 9 month period before I finally ended up at the hospital after going into convulsions. This doesn't sound like CO poisoning to me. While being removed from the environment, the CO stays bonded to the blood cell until the blood cell is replaced in several months time, unless the person is put in a hyperbaric chamber, which breaks the bond of the CO to the blood cell. So while I regularly left my basement apartment with the faulty furnace, I kept returning to it and kept getting further exposure. I favor a psychotic break, my niece had an episode of schizophrenia at age 31, the doctos thought it might have been triggered by an illness because she had no prior signs of mental illness. Two sisters have schizophrenia, but manifest symptoms in their teens. if it was drugs, "they made me do it" may refer to the pills.

[@thejoycatcher8189]

I know it’s rare but thyroid issues can lead to the symptoms described. Maybe his children can get tested because it can run in families. I haven’t heard of this case before. Thanks for sharing. Kingsman AZ has many odd cases and missing people. I’m so sorry for the Williams. It’s so bitter sweet to have Devin home but of course we wish it alive and well. 🙏🏻🕯️

[@alisongood9572]

Dudes, there was a podcast called ReSolved Mysteries that retold and updated the stories. They did lots of deep research on social media, too. They got through 2 or 3 seasons.

[@lisahunt3215]

I'm only half way thru, but I'm thinking: some truckers were/are known to take substances to keep them awake. Maybe he was in some sort of drug psychosis that would explain Devin's odd behavior.

[@karenraba4709]

This is what I have been thinking, too. "They made..." him take sime sort of stimulant he had never taken before

[@karenraba4709]

My secondary thought is sleep deprivation.

[@dodgeramsport01]

Drugs is what everyone says but its to easy to blame drugs! Im not buying!

[@lisahunt3215]

@@dodgeramsport01 what do you think happened then?

[@dodgeramsport01]

@@lisahunt3215 Amphetamine psychosis is very very easy to recognize. Even if you don't know what that is, they will appear agitated, twitchy and have sunken eyes. The witnesses said he seemed completely normal other than the mumbling. There is also a time line discrepancy! and things we are not being told or dont have the infomation to!

[@Idgy.intheskyy]

Was there a trail leading to his truck in the meadow? Like can they see the path he took?

[@chezlamere4276]

Great story telling.

[@lauraandmatthedgecock6525]

Great episode

[@Douglas_Hamilton]

Never heard of this crazy case, but nothing beats the David Lewis case. Drugs are most likely that caused his confusion. He died due to exposure. David Lewis is on a whole other level of mystery. So is the Chuck Morgan case as well as the death of Don Kemp.

[@joys3700]

When he said I can’t sleep. I’m thinking he’s upset that he can’t stop to rest/sleep. So he may have taken something to Keep him from falling asleep.

[@laurieclarkson9180]

Wait..what? You can't just bring that up about Cheetahs and not elaborate..LOL

[@stephen45894]

It seems like he had a psychotic break, possibly drug induced. He clearly didn't know what he was doing and his behavior was completely irrational.

[@juniorjohnson5961]

The description of this man & his desire to be home & spend as much time as possible makes me think he probably took some type of speed hoping to get home as fast as possible & had a bad reaction I've seen people on speed stay up for days & hallucinations were common. I'd bet that's what happened.

[@chamae01]

" what were you taking on that run,..reds,Benny's or apple whackies? Devin Williams probably, " oh I don't drank them flavored coffees"

[@pinkrubix]

I think too much is being put into what he said about "they made me do it." For whatever reason he was having a major break with reality. He was striking a rock against paper money like it was flint and saying he needed to start the grill. He clearly had no idea where he was or what he was doing. I think the "they" he was talking about very possibly didn't even exist. Likewise so the "it" that "they" made him do. I get the impulse to think that that is the one coherent thing he was doing/thinking/saying at that moment, because this is such a bizarre case and we can no longer ask him what happened and he wasn't found in time to do any toxicology testing or anything like that. All we have is bones, and not even intact bones. For the person going through something like this it's very likely had no awareness whatsoever that what was happening to him wasn't reality, that something was happening to him. People say weird things because they see and hear weird things and their reality is broken so they don't know what they're doing or saying. I've had hallucinations before and in the moment I had no way of knowing that they weren't 100% true and factual and real. I get the impulse to latch onto the words but I think they're probably just as much nonsense as trying to strike a flame with a rock and a dollar bill in order to light an imaginary grill.

[@nottooherbal]

Strawberry fields forever.

[@dodgeramsport01]

Drugs is a cop out, no way it was drugs! Amphetamine psychosis is very very easy to recognize. Even if you don't know what that is, they will appear agitated, twitchy and have sunken eyes. The witnesses said he seemed completely normal other than the mumbling.

[@ktisdel1]

Oh ya. I had hallucinations after 4 nights of no sleep OR it could be meth because lots of truckers do it’s. So maybe 🤔

[@giorgismama8024]

Schizophrenia is my guess. Drugs are also highly likely.

[@devonbrahm9536]

What if the "they" he was referring to was drugs? As if to say "I wouldnt of done this, but they ( the drugs) made me do it.

[@susanmargaret9331]

Peyote?

[@dee-deelove9310]

I can’t believe you made an hour and a half podcast out of something so obvious 😂 I will keep listening with the hope that the next episode is more of a mystery 😊

[@dodgeramsport01]

So what is so obvious about this?

[@violentshemp7776]

dogman