223 Gel Test: Should You Really Be Hunting Deer With The 223 Remington 64gr Power Point?

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Get my Free E-Book on the best hunting calibers here: thebiggamehuntingblog.com/ebook

[@tbjtbj4786]

Ever tried a 358w or 257 Weatherby in gel or for that matter a 6mm Remington?

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

I have unfortunately not tried any of those out. I have plans for a 243 Winchester gel test in the future, but not any of the others...

[@dennisfaulkner5470]

I doubted mine for deer, till, I used a 60gr. Nosler Partition.. Surprised, I was.😮

[@blindboyjonny]

This projectile is still carrying more kinetic energy than a 44 magnum at point blank range. And it penetrates more than enough to make an entrance and exit on a broad side, dear. Wouldn’t be my first choice, but I think it can get the job done as long as you have an open enough recovery area, thanks for the great work, Jon.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad you enjoyed it. And it sounds like you and I are on the same page with regards to this ammunition and cartridge!

[@bekkerbosbeer3453]

Will work well for Impala, blesbuck,bushbuck , warthog and bushpig in South Africa

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

I agree

[@kevinberdine]

Last season I shot a medium size whitetail with a very similar round, Winchester Deer Season, 64 gr .223. Double lung shot although the bullet didn't exit. Deer ran 40 yards, slightly downhill before dying. This was with an AR15, with 16" barrel

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Good deal, thanks for sharing that experience with us. I've tested the 64gr Deer Season XP in gel (it's available in the premium Hunting Guns 101 portal) and observed similar results to what I got with the Power Point ammo: the Deer Season ammo penetrated a tiny bit deeper and made a little bit bigger wound cavity. Very similar overall though. Can you tell me a little more about how it performed on your deer? What did the chest cavity look like when you field dressed the animal? What sort of angle was your shot? Close to broadside?

[@Ma_Deuce]

​@Thebiggamehuntingblog I shot an Antelope at 300 yds and a whitetail at 50 yds last year, both with the Deer Season XP. Hit the goat with a slight 1/4 towards. The top of the heart was torn completely off and the lung was jelly. It must have tumbled backwards a ways and left a quite alot of damage to the liverand never got an exit. He didnt make it 5 yards before falling over dead. The whitetail was a perfect broadside shot. It basically jellied everything and left a pretty intense hole on the exit. As long as the conditions allow i wouldnt think twice about using the 223 for deer. Its also not something I'd use in heavy brush or where you dont have a perfectly clear shot. The rifle used was 20" AR

[@billyj.williams2341]

Since the mid 1990s I have put numerous white tail in my freezer with this load out of a 20" Weatherby Vanguard..... keep your distance under 100yrds and make good precise shots. Have found a few expanded projectiles on the opposite side under the hide that looked very similar to your gel projectile. Just keep in mind you are shooting a small caliber, treat it with respect and everything will be fine. There are better projectiles and loads today but this 64gr PP load will stabilize in most 1-12 twist where other's wont so its still a good option for people with older slow twist barrels.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

What bullets were you using out of your Weatherby Vanguard to take those deer? You and I are in agreement about the limitations of both this cartridge and ammo on deer as well as the fact that it will work and the fact that there are some better options out there too.

[@billyj.williams2341]

@Thebiggamehuntingblog I have primarily used the Winchester 64gr PP.... last year I started using the Federal 62gr Fusion MSR load as I was having trouble finding the Winchester. The barrel on my Weatherby won't stabilize the copper TSX bullets or the Sierra 77TMK. The chamber is also pretty tight and it pops primers with 556 spec loads so I can't shoot the Speer 62 gold dot or Winchester 64 bonded factory Police Surplus loads that you see fairly often.

[@scottythebody0811]

With the proper broadside shot placement, I believe it would work well on small whitetail.

[@FISHUNTREECOUNTRY]

And big ones

[@nj-bz8pv]

It does for sure

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Tell me more about your experiences with it!

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Tell me more about your experiences with it!

[@scottythebody0811]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog Well, here in Virginia, even the big deer are small.

[@johnnymccann5607]

I've reloaded over 45years many,many calibers and testing, hunting and my number one deer rifle for many years is my savage heavy barrel 22-250. taking deer from close range to 300 yards. i use serria 63gr psp and Winchester 64gr psp. At 3450 fps it is a devastating deer round with good shot placement. The biggest buck i ever took is a massive 8 point over 240 pounds. Quartier shot left shoulder though both lungs and through outher side at 86 to 92 yds.buck went 10 _13 ft . the really odd thing was the massive damage it did inside but exit hole so small blood would just drip. i wouldn't hesitate to hunt deer with your rifle but I'm a well seasoned tracker and many hunters not. as there is never a 100 percent that a deer wouldn't run on a vital shot i don't recommend the 223 or my 22-250 to a new hunter or a hunter without reasonable tracking skills. papa wishing you well 😊

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Thanks for the comment!

[@mot0rhe4d40]

Have gotten a lot of good reports on the Barnes TSX & TTSX in 223/556 for deer. Have a few boxes of the Barnes 70gr TSX that I haven't had anything come out for, yet 👍

[@billbramley8484]

With an old Remington 700 with 22? inch barrel has been go to for deer, red and fallow out to three hundred metres, solid knock downs

[@davyphockett]

I also have a Remingon 700 BDL with a bull barrel. seems to work just fine

[@orr89rocz]

I was goin to try mine with a similar bullet, winchester made a 64 gr bonded bullet and also the deer season xp. Ended up not doing it but i had confidence in it. Love to build a 22-250 fast twist setup for this kind of thing.

[@arielkarat4338]

28 noslor from 700 yards , I think it will be interesting to see the effectiveness from that long distance

[@Fengshawn86]

Exactly the test I want to see!

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@andyherzfeld9492]

My experience with light calibers like the 223 you need to use a bullet like a Barnes and a 22-250 will do the dance for you with a 55 grain bullet

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

That exact recipe (22-250 with 55gr Barnes) is one of the cartridge/bullet combinations I was referencing at the end of the video as better alternatives to this one. Can you share some more details regarding your experiences with that ammo on game?

[@andyherzfeld9492]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog I lost a large doe to a 223 that just did not have enough power to finish the job quickly. I thought the bullet would be fine if it was sent faster. I tried me 22-250 on a doe broadside with the barnes handload and it was a one shot kill on the spot. I've only done that once to prove a point to myself I prefer to hunt deer with something bigger. To be fair the 223 bullet was a cup and core not a Barnes.

[@nocturnalspecialties642]

I've tried Barnes tsx and ttsx in 223 and it works pretty good. I got to try out several types of bullets in 223 on deer while shooting deer for farmers on a deportation permit. Out of about 30 different projectiles the 77TMK was the best. I tried everything from 40gr noslers to 77gr TMKs at ranges from 50 yards to 700 yards. Using am ARP 18" 8 Twist barrel. The 77TMK at 700 yards was still extremely impressive. I took the 12 twist 22-250 a few times and the 53gr varmageddon (3850 fps) was pretty wicked out to 550 yards. It wouldn't shoot any 60gr+ good at all. 8 twist 22-250 with 80gr bergers at 3225fps was pretty nasty but it hurt to loose that lapua brass and 80gr bergers aren't cheap.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

Oh boy.... you just upset a few dozen Rokslide guys that swear by the 223 and the 77 gr SMK for Bear and Moose. Good luck

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Haha. Well, that's how it goes sometimes and they're welcome to feel however they want to feel. Like I said in the video I wasn't impressed with this particular bullet, but that also doesn't mean it doesn't work. For what it's worth, the 77gr TMK was one of the "better bullet options" I referred to in the video. More to follow...

[@cantstoplarping8753]

It's tmk you Fudd 😂

[@be6322]

Worked perfect this last year. Broad side lung shot… went 10 yards and fell.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

You were using this 64gr Power Point ammo? Very interesting. Tell me more. How long of a shot was it? What rifle were you using? Shot angle? Did the bullet exit? About how big was that deer?

[@be6322]

Yes Sir, approximately 75-80 yard shot. 16 inch barrel, right side broad side, slightly quartering. Right shoulder left lung. Hope that makes sense… we thought we lost it and it ran off… couldn’t find blood, searched for an hour. Then realized it went about 10 yards on the backside of a log and there it was… blew my mind. About 115-125 pound southern white tail.

[@be6322]

Slightly down slope shot, forgot to mention that

[@papatriot9195]

Foot lbs. of energy plays a roll as well. I was always taught to try stay above 950 ft/lbs of energy for whitetail here in PA. I've limited my 6mm Rem. to under 300 yards for this reason. I currently shoot 100 gr Hornady interlock

[@bekkerbosbeer3453]

Some 30-06 ammo comparison "cheap" vs "premium" ammo would be interesting

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Good idea! 30-06 gel tests with Core Lokt, Power Point, Precision Hunter, and Barnes VOR-TX ammo are available at huntingguns101.com/order

[@johanneslaxell6641]

6,5X55 SE Norma Ecostrike, 120gr

[@Americanstruggle]

Let's say out of a 22" barrel, you get closer to advertised muzzle velocity. With that said, wouldn't it expand quicker, fragment more, and have less penetration? So in theory, even faster out of a 24" barrel would perform even worse? New to hunting and different caliber/bullet options for different scenarios. So excuse my lack of knowledge or utter ignorance if I'm way off

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

You're on the right track. Watch from about 6:20 onwards again. Yes, a faster impact velocity should translate into more expansion and fragmentation, a larger wound cavity, and less penetration. Some would say that's "better" because of the larger wound cavity. Others would say that's "worse" due to less penetration. There are many cartridge/bullet combinations that can deliver both a larger wound cavity AND more penetration than this. Like I mentioned in the video, there are different bullets for the 223 that can ALSO deliver both a larger wound cavity AND more penetration too.

[@erickelly5395]

i like these new videos w/ the ballistic gel

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad to hear it!

[@jacktrout5807]

The real question is if you should hunt anything with winchester power point !

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

And what's your answer to that question?

[@jacktrout5807]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog never again!

[@michaelgraham1392]

Seen it kill plenty

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Tell me more!

[@elendal]

Great video. It would be interesting to see your take on premium ammunition such as SAKO.

[@rpk5250]

Great videos John. Would you say that the utility of this chambering is probably more than most others as far as the variety of things you can do with it versus what you have to pay in terms of ammo price, ammo availability, recoil for all day range use, etc…?

[@Americanstruggle]

One other question. Using a 77 grain 223 round out of a 22" barrel would travel slower, but get deeper penetration towards vitals. So are the lighter/faster bullets relying on this hydrostatic shock i hear about? Some say hydrostatic shock is BS, and some swear by it. So much to take in and learn.

[@rikertvonfulton16]

I believe you would have better penetration at longer ranges as the velocity drops out to about 200 yards.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

You're probably right. Expansion will decrease with velocity, but penetration will increase.

[@CheeseBurgerXJ]

I use the federal 62 gr trophy bonded bear claw, item #xf223sp and hornady black 223 75gr bthp out of a 16” for eastern coyotes. That 62gr bonded breaks bone easy, the back half is solid copper

[@MisterBrewer]

Thanks for the video, John. I thought the cavity you were measuring in the video here would be considered the permanent cavity, while the temporary cavity would be what that cavity expands to as the bullet penetrates and expands, no?

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

You're on the right track, but not quite. Here's a more formal definition of both temporary and permanent wound cavities: "A "permanent" cavity is caused by the path (track) of the bullet itself with crushing of tissue, whereas a "temporary" cavity is formed by radial stretching around the bullet track from continued acceleration of the medium (air or tissue) in the wake of the bullet, causing the wound cavity to be stretched outward. For projectiles traveling at low velocity the permanent and temporary cavities are nearly the same, but at high velocity and with bullet yaw the temporary cavity becomes larger." The last 7-8" of penetration in this particular gel test are part of the permanent wound cavity. The temporary wound cavity is several inches long in this particular case and is physically much larger (over 2x as wide) as the final expanded diameter of the bullet. Make sense?

[@ajsomp]

I’d offer for you to try the 77 grain TMK. Lots of good info out there on game being taken with it. I’m not telling people to hunt with it or not- but if they are going to hunt with 223 - the 77 grain TMK is the ticket.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Oh don't you worry. That one is on my list to test out! And that was also one of the "better bullet options" I referred to in the video too.

[@adamhymas4620]

This was the duty ammo for my department for several years

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

No kidding? That's very interesting.

[@nocturnalspecialties642]

I've seen departments issue Winchester 40gr ballistic tips before. That fired from a 16" 7 twist barrel is quite devastating

[@MrPh30]

Have a look at Rhino bullets, they make some nifty .224 in weight over 60 grain for it also.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Thanks!

[@MIchigan-Savage]

Yes!

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

😎

[@tbjtbj4786]

It can work on smaller whitetail. Especially like the ones in fl. But it needs to be in a big field with a long line of sight. But thats the problem. In thick woods or swamps it a problem Especially with bad blood trails or a good gator population in said swamp.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

That is indeed one of my concerns about this ammo. In cases where the animal doesn't drop very soon after the shot, finding it afterwards could be pretty challenging in thick woods if that bullet doesn't exit. I don't have a lot of gators where I live, but I realize that folks elsewhere in the southeast have to deal with that!

[@tbjtbj4786]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog when I had shoulder surgery I used a 223 with the barns x And on our little whitetail. 3 deer one removed it ran down a fire brake and fell over dead. No blood trail. Used a dog to get the next one it ran in the woods. Had to get the dog after the 3rd. Gator had claimed it. Went out the next day and got a 350L. As a low recoil deer gun. And that was the supposed best 223 deer ammo available. And yes I can show you 5 Gators all with in 500yds of 7 deer stands. And one is huge. 12 or better.

[@rileymartin4565]

It works in Alaska!

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Tell me more

[@MrPh30]

7x57 with 140 and 175 Nosler Partion

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Good idea!

[@RedOctober5]

Against the 7mm-08! 120gr TTSX & 140 gr ACCUBOND.

[@rexking3698]

How many whitetails have a chest wider than 15"? In MS not many. I took a 6pt about 79yds last fall with ruger american ranch 5.56 using barnes factory 70gr tsx. It ran 20-30yds and droped

[@NorthRiverGuide]

Wider than 15" I am not a betting man, but I would put my money on none. A very large cow moose is 15" across.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

You're not wrong about the size of a whitetail. And, like I said in the video I think this stuff will penetrate deep enough for a broadside or close to broadside shot on one. Things change a little with steeper shot angles that need to penetrate deeper and potentially go through bone. Though I could be wrong, I'm not as confident that it will penetrate deep enough in situations like that. I haven't shot the 70gr TSX into gel (though I could if you wanted me to), but I have tested a Hornady 55gr CX (which is also a lead free bullet along the lines of the TSX) and it penetrated about 35% deeper than this 64gr Power Point. I wouldn't be shocked if that 70gr TSX penetrates even deeper than the 55gr CX and I'm not surprised it did well for you on that buck. Did you recover the bullet? How far was that shot? And where did you hit it?

[@8762usma]

Excellent video! Really enjoyed it. I wouldn't use anything less than a 6mm/.243 on deer.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Mk-vc4fx]

Home defense or truck gun ammo?

[@1elk]

What barrel twist do you need for this ammo to function?

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Probably 1:12", which is the SAAMI standard for the 223 Remington

[@brandonturner3681]

6.5 creedmoor Barnes lrx

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@poorfatman5317]

Seven millimeter 08

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Good idea!

[@kennardjohnson7875]

I know someone that killed elk in Colorado with a 222 but those were head shots

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

I don't know how long this has been the case (and a 222 might have been legal when this person you referenced killed that elk), but Colorado has a 6mm/.24 caliber minimum for hunting big game today. The state also requires at least an 85gr bullet and at least 1,000 ft-lbs of retained energy at 100 yards to hunt elk. This ammo does not meet the first two requirements and just barely meets the third.

[@kennardjohnson7875]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog this probably after the minimum cartridge was instituted, 70tys and 80tys, it wasn't his typical elk round but there was some kind of dare or bet. This man is probably getting close to 100 years old, but he was a gunsmith and builder and he is from Blanco County tx. He probably hunted Colorado and the rockies for over fifty years straight. He was a 270 or 3006 diehard.

[@MulletDestructur]

It could work on smaller Texas/southern whitetails at borderline archery distances, or if you made a head shot, but it doesn’t leave much if any room for a margin of error for your shot placement.

[@jasonshults368]

The limitations you describe are irrelevant. You should try it before you make such claims.

[@anamericanpatriot5230]

in the past before karens and kens started yaking and promoting their anti gun anti hunting propaganda shooting game with small calibers such as this was normal and quite effective. All hunters I have known in the past and present wait for a perfect shot to take game . trying to be as effective and ethical as possible . I have seen what bullets from a 223, 220 swift, 22-250 , (.22 to the head ) and other, " what could be considered small caliber " bullets do to internal organs and lungs . They basically explode and turn to jello . Looking at a wound channel in a "gel block" does not truly represent tissue and organ damage. One needs to also notice the explosion , the shock wave , how much the block swells and shakes vibrates upon impact . There is a technical term for this and at the moment it eludes me but . I have seen game up to the size of elk drop in their tracks or stand or stumble only a few feet not truly realizing what just happened . Gel blocks are fun and give a guesstimation of bullet performance but are not the scientific go to for the Answer !

[@doghousedon1]

Anything smaller than .240 caliber is illegal for deer in my state. That gel test shows why. So yes, it's a terrible idea.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

What state do you live in?

[@johnkertzman3223]

No!

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong!

[@HazardousRob]

Been working fine for me for the last 10 years

[@nj-bz8pv]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblogdead wrong.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Tell me more about your experiences with this ammunition and cartridge on deer @HazardousRob . I'm genuinely curious.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Who is wrong and about what?

[@Nickrioblanco1]

Great video and information. This cartridge seems kind of marginal to me.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Me too!

[@mikeborrelli193]

Yet its not shown itself marginal in the field and kills thousands of deer across the southeastern US every season..