#29. Cheapest wood stabilizing method (testing PARALOID B44, B67 and B72)

EN
If you have seen my previous video on stabilizing pen blanks ( • #27. Highly figured pe... ) you have noticed that the resin I use is similar to Cactus Juice and the price is around 50€/L.
This was way too expensive and I made researches to find cheaper alternatives.
One of the alternatives I came up with and similar to Cactus Juice (heat cured resin) was Paraloid. However, I only found little information on Paraloid as wood stabilizer (it's well know for fossil stabilization though). I decided to give it a go with 3 different resins : Paraloid B44, B67 and B72.
The price was around 23€/KG of Paraloid and 4€ per L of Acetone. I made no precize calculation about the final cost but I roughly estimate it between 4 and 5€/L, basically 10x cheaper than Cactus Juice.
You'll find the result (ratios, quantities, etc) at the end of the video.
The only thing I'll do differently is using Isopropyl Alcool 99% instead of Acetone. Wear proper respirators as the mixture is not healthy...
FR
Si vous avez vu ma précédente vidéo sur la stabilisation des carrelets pour stylos ( • #27. Highly figured pe... ) vous avez remarqué que la résine utilisée (similaire à Cactus Juice) avait un prix trop élevé et prohibitif, aux alentours de 50€/L.
C'était beaucoup trop cher et j'ai fait des recherches pour trouver des alternatives moins chères.
L'une des alternatives que j'ai trouvée et qui est similaire à Cactus Juice (résine thermodurcissable) était le Paraloid. Cependant, je n'ai trouvé que peu d'informations sur le Paraloid en tant que stabilisateur de bois (il est cependant bien connu pour la stabilisation des fossiles). J'ai décidé de tenter l'expérience avec 3 résines différentes : Paraloid B44, B67 et B72.
Le prix était d'environ 23€/KG pour le Paraloid (avec quelques variations entre les différentes variétés) et 4€ par Litre d'acétone. Je n'ai pas fait de calcul précis sur le coût final mais je l'estime entre 4 et 5€/L, en gros 10x moins cher que le jus de cactus.
Vous trouverez le résultat (ratios, quantités, etc) à la fin de la vidéo.
La seule chose que je ferai différemment est d'utiliser de l'alcool isopropylique à 99% au lieu de l'acétone. Portez des masques respiratoires appropriés car le mélange n'est pas sain...
Music : www.bensound.com

[@calderon4128]

Paraloid is a Thermoplastic resin not a thermosseting one. What you are doing in the oven is evaporating the solvent, acetone or any other and letting behind the paraloid. Your wood will be inexorably more porous than one stabilized with cactus Juice.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Thanks for adding your knowledge to this topic. Definitely the wood is not much filled as it is with CJ (and thus more porous).

[@dane5547]

Thanks for this video. Can you post where to purchased B44 and b72 in the U.S.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hi. Unfortunately, I have no idea where this can be sold in the US. I live in Europe... Thanks for watching.

[@thecropheads826]

very informative video..i supposed we can't add dye/tint for paraloid mix, am i right?

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hi. You can add dye or pigment it does work. I've already tried it but it didn't work properly, only the first 5 mm were colored but I think this happend because I didn't let it enough time submerged. But definitely you can use dye. Cheers

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

7:48 you could set up a sous vide thermometer to get the oven to maintain a lower temperatures than it’s thermostat permits.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Yes you’re right. Could put it in a bag sous vide and cook it in warm water to reach the right temperature. I’ve seen this technique in some other videos but I didn’t have the right equipment in the shop to do it this way. 👍👍

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

@@WoodfulProjects That’s not what I meant. I’ve got a sous vide device that would turn that stove on and off to maintain the perfect temp. The stove is plugged into the device its probe would be placed inside the oven, either naked, in a dish of water or preferably in a piece of wood of a similar size to what you’re curing to mimic what’s going on inside the pen blanks.

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 no sure I understand what kind of device that is. In French “sous vide” means vacuum device. So I’m a bit lost. Anything specific I can loop up on the web?

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

@@WoodfulProjects If I haven’t given it away I may still have one somewhere. I’ll try to find it and forward the to you. In essence, all it is is a machine that has a very accurate temp probe that when the temp deviates from the desired range by more than 0.5° it turns the electricity on or off to it’s built in outlet thus making any device highly controllable, be it a mini oven, rice cooker, crockpot etc. I used to use mine with a rice cooker to get perfect boiled eggs.

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 I’ve never used such machine but it can be a good solution for very precise temperatures.

[@DaNielsBuild]

which resin in your opinion showed the best result?

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hey Daniel. Hard to tell but if I was to go again with one of the resins, I’ll pick B72 or B44. Definitely not B67. But again, it’s not necessarily a scientific approach… I added a comparative sheet at the end of the video. You can see that B67 had hard times penetrating the wood while the other 2 did better. Even the texture of the B67 was a bit ‘’gummier’’. Cheers

[@WoodfulProjects]

Oh and another thing careful using it with acetone as the vapors will damage the vacuum pump and the acrylic lid. You may want to consider another diluting agent (alcool, spirits, etc)

[@DaNielsBuild]

@@WoodfulProjects thank you very much for your reply, and how would you compare it to cacts juice? is it at least similar to that?

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@DaNielsBuild if you can afford CJ then go for it. This alternative (paraloid) can be be used to help out but shouldn’t replace the classic solutions such as CJ or similar products that are meant to stabilize wood (at least not under the acetone form). And yes, the result is similar or very close to CJ. As you can see in the video, I stabilized some spalted punky wood and the result came ok.

[@Belows682]

Hello. I have been dissolving acrylic in acetone for a few days now. The mixture has became quite cloudy yet there is still undissolved acrylic in the bottom and the consistency is still like water. Is thia similar to your experience. I am mostly worried there is not enough dissolved acrylic in solution. I used much more in my mixture then it appeared you did. Mine may be at full saturation but i am not sure

[@WoodfulProjects]

Well, I did add much more than what I initially added. All the ratios are shown in a summary at the end of the video. But indeed the more you add the more difficult it will be to dissolve. One thing to keep in mind is that you don’t want to add too much otherwise the consistency is too thick and thus won’t penetrate the wood deep enough. Curious to have a feedback on your results. Cheers

[@Belows682]

Hey again. Wow, thanks for the reply! I didnt expect one that fast. I am in my shop now trying to get more to dissolve. Im certain its near complete saturation, so i will be trying my first stabilization today and will definitely report back. I work mostly with .5x2x6 inch blanks for tool and knife handles. The shapes are different from pen blanks but i imagine they will react in a similar way. Now, if i can get my freshly dyed blanks to not warp while drying ill really be good to go. Happy turning, friend.

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@Belows682the only piece of advice I could give is to be careful with the acetone vapors. As you saw in the video, it is very corrosive for the acrylic lid so I’ll let you imagine what it could do to the lungs. Happy exploration in the world of stabilizing and see you next time. Cheers

[@calderon4128]

Why you do not show the weigh increase of the blanks with cactus Juice ? I have obtained weigh increses as much as 110 % depending on the typoe of wood. On the other hand, I think the CA finish will make all the blanks look similar.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hi, did you watch the video until the end? There is a summary of my conclusions and the weight of the blanks is shown too 12:04

[@Mr_Chuckles]

On very burled wood ie. lots of eyes, I've got penetration as low as 10%. It's a very unreliable method to tell penetration, as the wood's complexity can mean that areas are inaccessible. Also, I have had pieces floating after a month and they never fully penetrate. The only thing I've found is just to have a standard method (I vacuum for 24 hours, release vacuum, soak for a week) and stick to it, then fix any voids down the line with epoxy or CA depending on size.

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@Mr_Chuckles totally agree. Because burl wood is really condensed and compressed, there are less pores to fill with resin. In comparison, punky wood can increase up to 80% weight sometimes.

[@calderon4128]

@@WoodfulProjects There is No weight for the blanks with Cactus Juice

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@calderon4128 this is a video about paraloid, not cactus juice. Hence I’m only showing the weight of paraloid stabilized blanks. If you are interested in the weight increase when stabilized with CJ, I have another video on that. Cheers

[@johnkemas7344]

Which Paraloid version do you consider the hardest and most durable?

[@WoodfulProjects]

12:05 you can see a summary different criteria. I would go with B44.

[@johnkemas7344]

@@WoodfulProjects Thanks for the reply! Will try it.

[@incendioereptus814]

Merci pour la vidéo. Sauf erreur de ma part la plupart des paraloids sont insolubles dans les alcools. Le B67 devrait se diluer dans l'isobutanol mais les autres non. Il faudrait aussi tester la résistance à la chaleur des produits finaux, les paraloids ayant souvent une température de transition vitreuse assez basse. Est ce que le passage au four est nécessaire ? Dans le cas d'une résine d'imprégnation il faut provoquer (ou accélérer) une réaction chimique, pour le paraloid le diluant ne sert que de véhicule. Sa simple évaporation suffit pour une solidification du produit dilué (les diluants utilisés sont très volatils). La chaleur peut accélérer le processus mais quels effets sur le résultat final ? De plus les vapeurs sont toxiques. Le B72 a une température de transition vitreuse de 40° commence à fondre à 70 et coule à 140. Le passage au four risque de faire migrer le produit. Il faut aussi considérer dans l'efficacité du produit la quantité injectée. 100 grammes de résine injectée augmente le poids de 100 grammes (environ peu d'évaporation). 100 grammes de mélange paraloid à 30% augmente le poids de 33 grammes (après évaporation du diluant). Y a t il un effet sur la solidité ? Ce qui est sûr c'est que c'est une bonne voie vu le prix des stabilisateurs. Bonne continuation.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hello et merci pour le commentaire constructif. Comme vous pouvez le constater, les 3 sont solubles dans de l’acétone mais à tester sur l’alcool. Mes connaissances sur ce produit étant assez limitées , le but était de “jouer” avec les paraloid pour voir le rendu final. Je ne dispose malheureusement pas de matériel scientifique (ni des connaissances d’ailleurs) pour tester de manière précise les propriétés mécaniques du bois après stabilisation avec le paraloid. Ce que je constate néanmoins est que le bois échauffé à un stade très avancé (quasi pourri) a gagné en rigidité et ne s’effrite plus. Bonnes fêtes

[@G4m1c]

Je n'y connais rien du tout mais sur le site artificina il est écrit "- Consolidation des bois et bois vermoulus (10 à 20% dans du toluène ou du xylène)" Si ça peut aider...

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@G4m1cmerci. Ca vaut la peine d’essayer. J’ignore si ces deux produits sont aussi corrosifs que l’acétone vis à vis des plastiques mais je garde cela à l’œil. Par contre, 20% de ratio me paraît très peu.

[@Naturallystated]

Is it really least expensive if it ruins your vacuum equipment?

[@WoodfulProjects]

Well. Did stabilize multiple times with this method and so far, I’m still using the same equipment. Btw I purchased the vacuum chamber + pump 70€. This is basically the price of 1,5L of Cactus Juice. I let you do the math and have your own conclusion.

[@Dustmadeout]

How does the price of B44 with acetone compare to the Cactus Juice?

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hello, the prices of acetone and paraloid are described in the description of the video. Cheers

[@Dustmadeout]

​@@WoodfulProjectsThank you. I've read that it is reversible and can be dissolved again in a solvant. Did you try this with wooden handles?

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@Dustmadeout i haven’t tried it but here’s what I think : only the external layer will be dissolved. Because the pores are filled with resin, no solvant will be able to get inside, dissolve the resin then empty the pores of the wood

[@Danny19805]

Whitch type of wood are those

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hello, this is spalted maple.

[@pauldziedzic5808]

It is my understanding that Paranoid will not dissolve in Isopropyl Alcohol???

[@WoodfulProjects]

So far, the few tests I’ve done, it does dissolve but not in the same way and rate as it was in acetone. It remains at the bottom in a slimy form. No matter how much you stir, at some point it doesn’t dissolve anymore. But might worth doing some tests.

[@milohenry1233]

Hi can I ask why do u use all 3 types? Is one not better for wood ?

[@WoodfulProjects]

It’s a test. I’m not a chemist and have no idea which one is better for wood. This said, the purpose of the test was to see if one of them penetrate better on the wood and the final curing step (hard or gummy). Thanks for watching.

[@albertkaiser9563]

Ethylacetat soll sich am besten dafür eignen! Ich werde es mal testen sobald die bestellung da ist. Ich habe ein stück gestockte Birke im vakuum stabilisiert 182g. dovor 427g. danach 260g. nach dem trocknen! ich habe B44 benutzt mit Impressin90 ist es deutlich schwerer!Habe auch teile ohne vakuum getaucht bis sie sich vollgesaugt haben funktioniert auch!

[@bitsurfer0101]

If you're using vacuum, I think you meant to say 25inHg

[@Mr_Chuckles]

Are you not worried about those acetone vapours entering your hot vacuum pump? Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Also acetone will eat many things such as grease, rubber, plastics, etc.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Hot vacuum pump? If you know how a vacuum pumps works, you know that there’s nothing to be worried on this matter. However, where you are totally right is about the acetone attacking the rubber and plastic parts. It does indeed destroy them if you do stabilize frequently with acetone. If you use it once in a while, no major issues to be adressed.

[@Mr_Chuckles]

@@WoodfulProjects Cool, thanks for your reply. It is a pity that these pellets have to be suspended in such aggressive solvents. I presume that Cactus Juice etc. have some kind of proprietary resin that is oil-soluble...at least it feels somewhat like oil. Certainly doesn't evaporate at all.

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@Mr_Chuckles actually, on one of my previous videos I’ve also shown that cactus juice is really aggressive. Acetone kinda melts then acrylic lid but then it just hardens back while cactus juice create cracks on it which presents a risk of implosion (have seen plenty of videos where vacuum chamber had imploded during the stabilization process because the acrylic lid got attacked by CJ. But except this issue, I haven’t noticed any other damage from CJ to the vacuum pump itself while acetone did. I’ve discussed this matter on the forum penturners.org. You may want to give a look. Cheers

[@WoodfulProjects]

@@Mr_Chuckles oh and forget to mention, indeed CJ evaporation is not on the same level as acetone. But as said in the video, this is a cheap alternative. If you can afford CJ, I would recommend to better stabilize with it.

[@calderon4128]

Cactus Juice is a Thermosetting resin. It cures by heat all the resin. There is no solvent to evaporate@@Mr_Chuckles

[@juanmanuelperezmoreno6287]

Por favor, indícame si has conseguido disolver la resina B-72 en alcohol isopropílico y cómo lo has hecho. Yo tengo la mezcla de 50 gramos en un litro de alcohol isopropílico, aparece una zona sin cambio, una zona como un gel y el resto liquido blanquecino, lleva ya 11 días y no termina de disolverse, la información que encuentro sobre el tema no me ayuda. gracias, un saludo. S'il vous plaît, dites-moi si vous avez réussi à dissoudre la résine B-72 dans de l'alcool isopropylique et comment vous l'avez fait. J'ai le mélange de 50 grammes dans un litre d'alcool isopropylique, une zone sans changement apparaît, une zone comme un gel et le reste un liquide blanchâtre, ça dure depuis 11 jours et ça n'a pas fini de se dissoudre, l'information je trouver sur le sujet ne m'aide pas. Merci salutations.

[@WoodfulProjects]

Bonjour. Je n’ai malheureusement pas dissout du paraloid dans de l’alcool mais quand je fais des recherches sur cela, il semblerait que c’est plus compliqué de dissoudre sans l’alcool que dans l’acétone. Cela dit, il est possible de dissoudre dans l’alcool mais cela requiert beaucoup plus de temps. Le résultat final sera plus épais également. Je vous conseillerais d’utiliser plutôt de l’éthanol qui semble dissoudre un peu plus vite mais attention que c’est très toxique comme substance. Bonne expérimentation.