Are Setup Books Lazy? | 2 To Ramble

[@jacobmallinder4597]

Set up books work better if you have faith in the author's ability to deliver. Sanderson being a great example.

[@2ToRamble]

Sanderson pays off his A plots in all of his books Ive read - but I see what you mean. He does a great job at both seting up and paying off

[@jacobmallinder4597]

@@2ToRamble Yeah, maybe a better example would be Joe Abercrombie. I know you mentioned that the first book of First Law was great but the plot for you wasn't necessarily paid off. Its pretty much a set-up book, but because Abercrombie writes the characters so well you forgive it and read on. I think thats a better example.

[@2ToRamble]

@@jacobmallinder4597 Definitely agreed

[@MorgothsBalrog]

I don't mind set up books. As long as you deliver the payoff in a great and satisfying way. Wheel of Time is a great example. I'm on the last 300 pages of the last book, and it's paying off so far.

[@caydentjiptowihardjo7297]

on book 5 rn and even the 'setup' of the series so far is peak

[@2ToRamble]

Fair!

[@lightblindedfool9510]

I did not learn whether setup books are lazy in this video and I loved it.

[@LeonC0704]

hahahahathey did not resolve the A plot

[@kevinmutch9987]

I feel like Rhythm of War was one of those setup books where neither the A plot or B plot were concluded and was pretty much just preparing for a book 5 finale the entire time.

[@jordy8693]

to be fair, the end twist-ish is crazy. it's like the A and B aren't as relevant bc there is a nuclear bomb. the venli parts really carried too. I think the dog and the dragon story is in that book as well and that makes it one of the top Sanderson books imo.

[@kevinmutch9987]

@@jordy8693 I liked Rhythm of War, it's probably my least favorite of the four but I actually think it is my favorite ending of any of the books. Pretty much everything from the end of part 4 and all the way through part 5 was a hit for me. I agree on Venli too, I find her current day character to be really complex actually. I still think it's a pure set up book but one that was done the right way.

[@VinnyTheory]

“Episodic” just seems like the correct structure to me because each book should have its own satisfying promise and payoff. This is what made the Percy Jackson books so addicting-each one was its own adventure.

[@BookishGecko]

Richard: welcome welcome to the next episode of Why Austin is Wrong. Austin: 😳

[@anormalperson7161]

15:33 guys have you read past book 2 of Hitchhiker's? There's significant change between each of them, only book 1 fits that description

[@shughes5778]

I mean, Hitchhiker's is the name of the first book, so it's still correct. Honestly though, the later books just feel like longer episodes in the same episodic nature.

[@danielrood264]

Also, this bugs me to no end that people still get this wrong but The Lord of the Rings is a singular story written in multiple volumes. It's not a series. It was actually quite common to write in this fashion back in the day, particularly for non-fiction works like Das Kapital or Gulag Archipelago. Singular works, multiple volumes.

[@2ToRamble]

Rigjt, Tolkien split it into 3 for publishing purposes if we remember correctly

[@k.enterante]

I have been successfully, thoroughly gaslighted that Richard hates RR-it’s 2toRamble canon, at this point.

[@2ToRamble]

Finally someone gets it (thanks keith lol)

[@macmay3042]

A set-up book is fine... as long as it's not the first book. You need to find a way to give us some kind of book-long prologue to the series which doesn't require setup, or jump into the action and backtrack later. The first book has to convince me the rest of the series is worth reading, and that's a much bigger lift if you're trying to do that while setting everything up.

[@Mermer-16]

lol, I was just going to post a comment that I prefer setup being in the first book! I generally hate flashbacks and backtracking and characters talking about things they already know, so I'd rather have a slightly slower first book that builds and builds through subsequent installments. Plus, doing it that way can help avoid the middle book slump. This is obviously not everyone's cup of tea though, and I agree that it's harder to hook readers that way.🙂

[@macmay3042]

@@Mermer-16 See the thing is I don't think it has to re-hash. A good first book doesn't need to give you everyone's full backstory, or even make it clear that they aren't giving you the full story. Then the second book will flesh out details of the setting and characters that weren't needed in the first book to make it good.

[@Mermer-16]

@@macmay3042 I see your point, and no, I also wouldn't want unecessary details like full backstories. Nor would I want to be handed all the pieces upfront and left with no surprises. I think the approach should fit the kind of story the author wants to tell. I enjoy different approaches, but I just happen to prefer a slower burn where I can get to know and care about the characters before they are tossed into a life or death situation.

[@macmay3042]

@@Mermer-16 That's fair. I think the problem with that approach is, you're basically telling readers that there's a tax. Here's this book that's basically homework you need to study, and you don't get to find out what the actual story will be like or if you'll enjoy it until you've read more than one full book in the series. That seems unreasonable to me. I think the key there is reputation. If I've read other works, maybe standalones, by the same author, and trust that all the pieces will come together and the author is capable of a good story, then I have reason to go through the book that's just set up, trusting that eventually there will be some pay off and that I'll enjoy it. I know a lot of fans out there who use stuff like this to gatekeep, to tell someone "you're not allowed to say this author is bad cuz you only read the first three books in the series, it doesn't really get good until the 7th so anyone who quits after just six bad books isn't allowed to express their opinion" and it might be coloring my tolerance for how many books of a series I will read before I expect to be able to understand what the book is about.

[@Corrupt_164]

Great shows guys, Really enjoyed it.

[@2ToRamble]

Thankyou!

[@AuntieBooks]

I like “set up” books. I am a plot-over-character reader, so when I see the slow build of the plot I appreciate it and know more is to come in future books. I did not learn what the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow is in this video! 😂

[@2ToRamble]

😂

[@Antono8319]

I really enjoyed this video! I usually have to stop around the 15-minute mark when the spoilers start 🤣, but I got to see it all this time. To Richard’s point at the end, it was a great KZbin video. Greetings from Costa Rica 🇨🇷!

[@2ToRamble]

Hello ! And thanks for watching!!

[@fluffypenguins]

To answer the first question a minute i to the video, books should really feel like a season because you have to wait atleast a year between books. An episode of tv you get a new one the following week

[@sweetmcsweetums4771]

I just finished Words of Radiance, and I was telling my friend group that it truly felt like I was going through an entire season of tv!

[@carlosandino5524]

Dresden Files is a good example of a series.

[@gamingrambles]

9:50 Battlestar Galactica Atlantis definitely felt like this. There would be multiple episodes dedicated to a specific character’s growth, and then in the next episode they would revert to the start of their character arc. It was jarring 😂 and felt like the studio wanted to pump out as many episodes as possible without any regard for the audience

[@relaffub]

Setup books means the editor should have reigned the author in more

[@2ToRamble]

Meaning to cut some of the fluff? (Or scale?)

[@philsajor6724]

Love these B-Plot episodes! 🎉

[@Brodyody]

I give a series one shot to impress me with a complete story that leaves the door open for more. If you do to much setup for more books down the line, I won't pick up the series because you couldn't prove to me that you tell a complete satisfying story in one book.

[@macmay3042]

See... my thought is, every single book should have at least one "main" plotline, which has set-up, progress, and payoff inside of that book. I think any good book, especially a book in a series, should contain elements of overarching plot, so you can have set up in one book, progress in another, and payoff later on. In general I'm opposed to long waits between beats, if something is set up in one book and not mentioned in the next book and then progress is in the book after, that's usually not gonna be great. If that plotline is minor enough it can be done well, but it has to be the sort of thing where, it's almost an easter egg, because if it's pivotal then it's going to feel under-developed, or like the author is just trying to trick the audience like, aha, you didn't think about this woman cuz I haven't referenced her in three books but suddenly she jumps out to save the day. Also by that point a book is getting very complex, and the more complicated a book is, the more skill the author needs to pull it off.

[@2ToRamble]

Totally agree with a bunch of this (Austin)

[@SamHarrison2099]

Richard is honestly right on this one, I am loving Wheel of Time at book 8. And they feel very episodic.

[@Beth64]

To your point about the middle book of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn--I read that trilogy long ago, and don't remember a whole lot about it, just little bits here and there. But I can't even remember the title of Book 2, heh. So now I'm tempted to read the whole thing again just to see if you're right that the whole middle volume could be cut.

[@ShyFly1000]

Topic suggestion !!! Dnf series where you made it through the majority of a series and could not finish for one reason or another. There’s a newer series I can give an example of. I literally returned the 3rd book and donated my first 2. That Justice of Kings by Richard Swan. It went to this place where people aren’t dead that die and traveling to random places without ever mentioning where they are going in either of the two books prior and then zero species development or reasoning for character actions. Just a thought for a video topic.

[@theofficialtibbs]

Despite how much modern fantasy owes to Tolkien, I wish more authors would copy Lord of the Ring's structure -- it has the perfect balance between episodic and serialized storytelling. The story is divided into six "books," each with its own self-contained arc. And each chapter is also a tiny arc with its own setup and payoff, while still moving the overall story forward. It feels like something memorable happens in each chapter, and each "book" ends with a satisfying payoff. Despite the entirety of Lord of the Rings being as long as many single books from modern fantasy series, I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't epic or huge enough, or that it doesn't devote enough time to world-building, characters, or imagery. The problem with modern fantasy isn't length -- it's efficiency of storytelling.

[@danielrood264]

I'm of the strong opinion that that at the very least, Book 1 of a series needs to have a major plot arc resolve by the end of it. This use to be pretty standard but after books like The Blade Itself, it's frustratingly more common to see these glorified prologues being put out by authors. If you want to hook someone in your series, something needs to happen. There needs to be a climax and resolution. I'm sorry but this is just storytelling 101.

[@2ToRamble]

I (austin) think we’re on a similar page - I want to see an A plot that is promised to payoff while the B plot can build up over the series

[@BadTakeRisan]

As someone who started with historical fiction and only recently got into fantasy and sci-fi, I gotta admit I hate set-up books. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather a book be 700-1000 pages with some payoff instead of 300 pages with primarily build-up.

[@2ToRamble]

I (Austin) generally agree for sure

[@ayushkatarpawar6429]

Setup books are fine, as long as I am entertained. It's one of the main reasons I DNF'ed WOT half way through book 5.( sorry Richard😅)

[@2ToRamble]

GOOD!

[@Journeyman2585]

I'm fine with setup books. I think the first two Licanius books seemed like mostly setup, but the payoff at the end was amazing. If the author can pay it off well, it's awesome.

[@heatherstiara8033]

I read books to be entertained. I don’t watch much TV or movies. If there isn’t a pay off in each book, I likely won’t read the next book. Because what’s the point? I don’t want to have to read 10 books to get a pay off. I’m not saying Lord Vuldamort needs to be killed in book 1. But there has to be satisfaction and mini pay offs.

[@PintoConrad]

This video was a true ramble. I didn't get the answer to the question. :D

[@2ToRamble]

Lol

[@VinnyTheory]

I think what you guys are saying, by analogy, is that each book should be its own individual mountain; each mountain should have its own unique color; and each mountain should increasingly be slightly taller than its predecessor. It seems your qualms with when authors don’t set it up this way is that multiple books are part of only one mountain, sometimes blended in different messy colors, and the tips of the mountains (payoffs) are erratically scattered rather than neat troughs and crests. Am I right? If I’m wrong, could you guys add to this?

[@2ToRamble]

This is a good analogy - I think this gets to the bulk of the point!

[@justanothercoffeelover6509]

I think i prefer episodic book series were every book has a conclusion. An example of this is the false prince series by Jennifer A. Nelson it is one of my all time favorites.

[@Maxy-c2b]

I thought empire of silence and the blade itself were both set up books, whilst reading them i struggled a bit but muddled through. It’s not until you read the next books you appreciate them much more for setting up the world, character motivations, plot threads etc.

[@IbbyMelbourne]

Mistborn era one versus era two is a great example, honestly

[@VinnyTheory]

It took maximum brain power to deliver promise and payoff while setting up the series in book one so I can completely see how this leads to laziness. I got here by miracle tbh, and I’m still trying to sharpen it/add to it, while trying to somehow keep the word count below 90,000. Definitely a hard ask but its vital

[@vigilantScrivener]

Dresden Files is actually bit funny because while the first 10 or so have subtle status quo changes, there is a hard turning point and then we enter into Dresden Files Shippuden in which Harry joins the Akatsuki and we zoom out to reveal the urban fantasy series was an epic fantasy series the whole time.

[@2ToRamble]

Oh damn

[@Smileysmiley012]

Glad you guys iterated episodic stuff can be good. Like the Mandalorian for example

[@N.A.Summur]

I definitely prefer a satisfying payoff of some sort. But it is also true that some payoffs just don't Lans as well because that wasn't the plot line you were interested in.

[@DanRodger22]

I think this was an interesting conversation with an immature premise. I know you said the title was intentionally provocative but it felt in bad faith given the content of the discussion. What is a setup book? Or why do setup books exist? Could have facilitated the same kind of conversation but provides a different tone. Like I said, i still found it interesting.

[@KlingonPrincess]

It was a setup video 😊

[@funkledunkdumber]

I don't know about lazy but it doesn't signal good writing to me. A big part of the craft is intentionality in what you put down on the page-boiling your grand vague idea down into tight effective prose that has standalone value, as is well placed and paced. I want to be amazed by every page and be absolutely sure of its necessity, otherwise why am I wasting my time? I have TV, you and myself to do that for me.

[@KaydianBladebreaker]

I did not learn how to quit watching your channel this episode. Maybe next episode 🙂

[@2ToRamble]

This is good. Very good

[@Onehitslay]

I had not realized that Rythym of War was a setup book because of how heavily invested in the world and characters I was. Until I saw another comment that mentioned it was 😂

[@General_reader]

26:35 quantity over quality…. Mmmmmmm!!!!! Remind you of any particular 14 book series Richard????

[@2ToRamble]

MHMMM!

[@chelseafrazier1175]

Y'all crazy! Every tree described for 3 pages is pure quality mkay! (I love every word of WoT)

[@angussinclair1344]

This is somewhat unrelated but Austin, if you see this, I genuinely believe you would enjoy Fires of Heaven (WOT book 5) far more than what you've read thus far. The same for b6 but then, sadly, The Slog...

[@caydentjiptowihardjo7297]

for sure the best book up to that point

[@2ToRamble]

Ive beard Book 4 was the best of the first half of the series - book 5 seems to have a lot of love too

[@kevinmutch9987]

@@2ToRamble 4-6 is a pretty fantastic run from RJ. I prefer 6 out of the group but it's really just splitting hairs between the three.

[@HollowDomain110]

The slog doesn’t exist.

[@joereeve2569]

The slog definitely exists

[@yenneferalvarez7122]

The wire is the GOAT!

[@cyb3rrazorcut]

22:17 The Reacher books work best when they stick to the formula. The weakest Reacher books imo are the ones where Lee Child tries to do something different (bigger stakes, government conspiracies, and so on) rather than Reacher cleaning up shady goings on in small town USA.

[@2ToRamble]

That makes sense - sticking to the formula that works for formulaic/episodic series?

[@TheDyr3]

I love sanderson and love mistborn but book 2 is just downright a setup with exclusive characters and plot narratices that open and close in that book. The second book is to just stall enough tine for Vin's climax (spoiler) ... Ruin and Preservation reveal to be appropriately paced, and to set up Elend for the 3rd. The trifecta stalemate was boring and zain had little baring on the whole narrative. I would say it is an episodic book series

[@kingdonsobek]

I think it’s great that we get so many chances to like the characters in WOT, cuz a lot of them suck. ( aie sedai, eylanye, etc)

[@KaydianBladebreaker]

are you talking about 'setting expectations' ? Its a phrase we use a lot in customer service, but might apply to this topic as well. Does the author set up an expectation and then deliver what you expect?

[@2ToRamble]

Definitely when considering what you were promised (expecting) to be paid off

[@jordy8693]

a season just btw before the intro ends :D

[@Mrchrister2]

You should review The Stand

[@robertpatenaude]

Good video. Is it true that the WOT could have been edited better and maybe was a couple of books too long? Not sure. As someone who read them as they came out, I always enjoyed them even if they were just world building or set-up books to further the plot. The people who read them now and don't have that wait between books, look at things much differently. Will always be my favourite series. From that first cover of Lan and Moiraine. At some point I will have to break down and buy those covers from Juniper books! Be well, stay safe!

[@Chance.Dillon]

Ohhhhh this is a good one. I think when done well both have their place. But when done poorly it likely feels worse. And god I just realized I’m so behind on your videos🤦🏻‍♂️

[@2ToRamble]

Wait until we start doing 3 episodes a week 😈 (we arent doing that. We’d die)

[@LeonC0704]

Well, Austin's A, B, and C plot didn't pay off. Richard, nice stand alone. lol

[@gamingrambles]

Also, y’all brought up Dungeon Crawler Carl, but I’m interested to hear what yall think about other popular LitRPGs? They’re extremely episodic (Ex: The first Defier, Primal Hunter) (DCC is actually pretty good about concluding books in a satisfying way) it was a lil jarring at first, but now I’m used to it.

[@2ToRamble]

Definitely- we havent read other LitRPGs at this point but can see that totally being the case

[@JosephtheMerchant]

I didn't learn anything about differential calculus in this video.

[@CASantos]

20:10 ☠️😂😂😂

[@ColorPopKnits]

I don't mind set up books if I belive it worth it, and the next book will be awesome.

[@2ToRamble]

Fair!

[@theirishman7792]

Quite the contrary I think setup books show way more effort and just like anything else in practice there are both good and bad examples

[@SimplementInefable]

What does payoff really mean though? I'm specifically thinking of The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie, one of my favorite books of all time. In that book, you can argue that nothing really happens, and its only setup for the whole trilogy. But IMO that doesn't detract from being a really enjoyable experience, even though you could say that there hasn't been any real advancement.

[@2ToRamble]

Thats a good example - the First Law inspired this video!

[@ShyFly1000]

Wheel of time books did not end as well as I wanted them to. There’s a lot of open ends and I think that happens because Jordan passed away and Sanderson was true to his notes which I fear may not have evolved to their finished state before he passed away. I also think it got too sexist as it went along. This is in part because of the world in real life and how it’s evolved as well as my own personal age when starting the series.

[@MichalGlowacz86]

I gotta say, writing a full scale novel is freaking exhausting. To even make an attempt at writing a big series of books you have to be insane. I'm absolutely willing to forgive authors some lazy solutions, if this is what allows them to carry on with the series. If an author need a setup book, let them have a setup book. As long as it's well written and the characters are interesting it's all good.

[@2ToRamble]

Fair!!

[@jakecarlstad6192]

I think most fantasy authors should be able to be more concise than they usually are. I thought Book 4 of Stormlight was a real nothing-burger of a setup. It probably could have been half the size and nothing would be significantly lost. I feel the same about Wot. I think it would be a much better series if it was only 7 novels

[@chelseafrazier1175]

I feel that it's so hard to even write a book, every author gets a huge pass in book 1 for me for any set up. Any new set up that happens in a book 2 now they're established and can keep going is generally ok cause thats expansion time. But if you're still dropping huge world bldg in book 7 (I'm looking at you harry potter 7), NO PASS. Lol

[@macmay3042]

My issue with the Wheel of Time was how very derivative it was, and worse, that he just didn't do his research on what he was stealing. He could have come up with his own symbol for men and women but instead he stole the yin-yang. And rather than spend the like eight seconds of googling it would have taken to realize each side was already associated with a gender, he just picked the one he liked better, and got it wrong. It stops being an homage and starts being just stealing things. Like the return of the mystical king named Pendragon. Oh I'm sorry, he butchered it to Paendrag or something instead, to try and pretend he was coming up with an idea instead of just stealing one. And don't get me started on how he doesn't care enough to see what a genuine polyamorous relationship is like, he was just a dirty old perv who wanted the fantasy of his main character having a stable of whores he could use.

[@HollowDomain110]

Great vid, guys. When will Richard be wrong?

[@2ToRamble]

😁 lol

[@LuzzyStef]

Hey Austin I don’t think you guys realize how big the name of the wind fandom is I think you guys have to do a video on it

[@2ToRamble]

Video is coming Friday 😁

[@LuzzyStef]

@@2ToRamble wow can’t wait but you better like it more than Richard

[@adammacfarlane3732]

You guys would love the expanse

[@2ToRamble]

🫡

[@natevelez2]

Wheel of Time - set up for like 5 books?? Book 10 - recap book? So lazy..... Agree RoW was set up book though

[@manuelestrella2358]

Who is nick? You guys have an editor? I thought Austen still did 😂

[@2ToRamble]

We handed it over to nick who has done an awesome job

[@alexiavya722]

way of kings should have been 300 pages… You can not change my mind. If it was that long, would have been great. All the other books do a lot better job at justifying its length.

[@2ToRamble]

!!

[@Belkerlos]

I completely disagree with you on the Tad Williams books, Rich 🤣 I also think the Wheel of Time should have been a trilogy 😅

[@2ToRamble]

Wheel of Time shouldve been a novella 😂😂

[@Belkerlos]

@@2ToRamble 🤣

[@2ToRamble]

Booo

[@Belkerlos]

@@2ToRamble I'm assuming that this is Rich? 😁

[@2ToRamble]

@@Belkerlos No, Im saying it shouldve ben a novella so I didnt have to read 4 books of it lol

[@katherinep1010]

Just incase the dread of all the work Richard would have to do without Austin isn't enough to hold off a homicide... I'm not sure Richard arguing with himself works for more than an episode or two. Keep Austin around, please.

[@2ToRamble]

😂😂

[@jamalerdem2055]

the thumbnail made me so angry but it did it's job

[@2ToRamble]

😂

[@Lezzyboy87]

This was just a set up podcast to talk about Jack Reachers wang

[@2ToRamble]

Lol

[@Smileysmiley012]

Chama!🔥

[@sparksdog8111]

Stop. Say no more. Yes. Yes they are.

[@L3vy330]

You guys are dumb ❤

[@2ToRamble]

❤️

[@Thomas.R.Howell]

I posted a video about my wheel of time journey so far. 11 books in and it's truly the best. People have no patience for slow natural storytelling. Set up books are a true gift to readers. We do not deserve them. The author shares more of their world with us through them. More development and growth. Makes those "payoff" books that much more impactful. The amazing thing about Wheel of Time, is that each book is a chapter of the overarching story. Set up book or not, each book matters to the full story. You take away one, you are missing out on the full experience. And I always say this on my channel, it is the journey not the destination. Wheel of Time is about the journey. And a journey well worth experiencing. Currently on book 12 of Wheel of Time and I am sad I am closing in on the end.

[@kevinmutch9987]

Well said, the storytelling is incredible. No rushed payoffs, everything that happens and all the character growth is earned, nothing feels cheap ever. I hope you enjoyed book 11, it's my favorite book of all time. What a return to form and phenomenal parting gift from Robert.

[@HollowDomain110]

Amen