3 Hilarious Examples of Rhythmic Ingenuity in Lesser-known Haydn Symphonies

[@ze_rubenator]

It only now occurs to me how I have underestimated Haydn... This is brilliant.

[@HAEngel-cr5gp]

Papa Haydn was such a genius! And so are you, Mr. Atkinson. Your presentations are always such a treat and pleasure. Thank you, again for sharing and teaching so much to us.

[@sanjosemike3137]

Haydn was a genius. Actually he was also a very decent person, by accounts of the time. Richard, I wanted to send you a personal thank you note for your posts, analyses and examples. I deeply appreciate them. sanjosemike

[@isaiasramosgarcia9771]

pero no era guapo

[@pierfrancescopeperoni]

@@isaiasramosgarcia9771 Y Mozart tampoco

[@vancelehmkuhl3689]

WOW thank you so much for posting this! Perfectly rendered! Also, hadn't heard Orpheus Chamber Orchestra version of this - they really keep that persistent offbeat in focus, including those two notes you pointed to, sometimes fudged! So, thanks again!

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Yeah, it's a great recording of a great symphony!

[@btat16]

Can’t believe I took this long to subscribe... amazing analysis of motifs with moving blocks of colours to visually aid the analysis, pausing and restarting the music at appropriate times to allow the listener to hear the phrase properly, and all set to the tune of period performances! What a gift you are to all of us!

[@porridgeandprunes]

I have spent the last 30 years trying to get to know all of Haydn's symphonies. Still working on it!

[@Richard.Atkinson]

I can whistle most of them! And I've also been listening to them for about 30 years!

[@jacksonhanson154]

Honestly introductions to pieces like these are the best gifts in the world, tnx Richard.

[@mrsneaky2010]

Your videos are very enlightening. I’m not a musicologist nor a proficient musician, but your videos have explained to me how brilliant these composers were. Thank you very much!

[@JohnMichael-gw6ve]

Dear Mr. Atkinson. Thank you so much for your analysis and explanation. They allow me a much deeper understanding and enjoyment of m usic. I didn't appreciate Haydn until I participated in a chorus for a performance of the Seasons. The conductor instructed us that Rimsky Korasakov considered Haydn one of the greatest orchestrators and that Haydn himself did not like the text but still created a great work.

[@WMAlbers1]

Haydn's symphonies are indeed a treasure trove of all kinds of surprising phrasing. The strange thing is that you don't quite notice it always when listening.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Yes, and there are so many other examples I couldn't include in this short video!

[@peterhumphreys7078]

I think that Haydn actually enjoys concealing his genius on occasion...

[@Musicrafter12]

The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, which plays the excerpts from the syncopated 80th, has no conductor. Imagine that!

[@mrsneaky2010]

Since the minuet was a popular 18th C dance, would love to have seen the chaos on the floor ensue from this particular piece !! 😊

[@philipthonemann2524]

Full of interest for me, as a listener, and amateur player and composer. Many thanks!

[@EpicSymphonicRock]

keep bringing videos, they are valuable

[@robertrodes1546]

Mozart could never have written these! Thanks for a lucid explanation. One of my professors, who did his doctoral dissertation on some aspect of Haydn's string quartets, said once during some analysis that Haydn would throw in extra measures "just to make you cry."

[@kiren3168]

Robert Rodes not really...

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Look at the opening of the Op. 20 No. 3 quartet - it's a 7-bar phrase!

[@DanielFahimi]

lmao

[@DanielFahimi]

@@Richard.Atkinson The Jupiter Symphony has a 7-bar phrase too. You probably already know this, but not everyone does. This is for the people who don't know. The minuet from the G Minor Quintet has always been one of my favorite examples of rhythmic ingenuity.

[@6558369]

Thank you so much for your wonderful in-depth analysis!

[@Maharani1991]

So glad I found this channel. Thanks :)

[@Maharani1991]

However I would never describe these moments as you do throughout your videos as "funny" or even "hilarious". I think they're brilliant and definitely stimulating and engaging, but none of it sounds humorous to me. Ah well, subjective opinions :)

[@Richard.Atkinson]

@@Maharani1991 True. Describing music is very subjective, and I like to use hyperbolic language.

[@Apfelstrudl]

5:08 Horn Pro tip: Never accept a Haydn gig without knowing the score /transposition 😂

[@Richard.Atkinson]

I'm guessing you wouldn't want to play in Symphony # 46 (B major)?

[@dacoconutnut9503]

@@cliffpinchon2832 for a natural horn without valves that plays only the overtone series, a stopped note is always a hard task

[@HowardHoMusic]

Love this! Keep up the videos!

[@fsffs2413]

While composing I try to figure out the musicians reactions during rehearsals and those of the audience. And that's a great bit of fun. Maybe Mr. Haydn did the same? I deeply appreciate the work you're doing. Please keep it up!

[@NFStopsnuf]

Ah, Haydn always is a goldmine for rhythmic deviations. We've focused on him quite a lot in a theory class focusing on rhythm, he's very interesting.

[@winterdesert1]

I've always felt that nobody could become a good musician without natural rhythm. Rhythm has always been the underrated gem behind all good music.

[@marcosPRATA918]

I enjoyed this job mr. Richard Atkinson and here I express my listener who likes Haydn. This "ingenuity" makes it unique. It is the ability to work with less complexity, but exploiting the innumerable possibilities of this. Haydn plays a game with the possible interactions and contrasts of timbres, dynamic contrasts and texture. The soloists here and there; simple rhythms that meet a conception of expressive balance exploring the tonality. Haydn, with that form and formula was for decades dominant in its time. Let's change the idea of ​​a dense tropical forest, through a grass dotted here and there by a stone, a field of flowers, a stream flowing, a cow savoring the breeze, young people playing and birds on their walks. (obs I use translator)

[@Tizohip]

marcos aquino iae man é BR?

[@Tizohip]

marcos aquino se for da uma olhada na musica de orquestra que postei hoje.

[@enzocypriani5055]

This is such an amazing channel

[@chanijacob5781]

Thank you so much!! I love your explanation!!! I enjoy watching this very much 🎵🎶😊

[@גילעברון]

Beautiful presentation!

[@marksaul3157]

Brilliant analysis of brilliant music. The 80th symphony always reminds me of the song "Throw mama from the train, a kiss, a a kiss". Not the music, but the words. It's not until waaay into the phrase that you realize what's going on--if you realize at all. The suspensions also remind me of Schumann, who plays with these rhythmic devices for measure and measures in his piano music. The D major minuet which suddenly turns into a march is always shocking to hear. Another example is the minuet of the string quartet op 20 No 4 ("Allegretto alla zingarese"). If you hear it in 4/4, not only is it not a typically menuetto, but the phrases have oddly many bars. It's only when you force yourself to hear it in 3/4 time--which took me days--that everything falls into place. I would not like to have been on Joseph Haydn's wrong side. Rapier wit.

[@markhughes7927]

Stunning ingenuity - and well spotted! I expect conducting the last movement you showed shortens conductors lives! Amazingly well played. On the imaginative side there’s a piano sonata in E flat major (i think) which i will swear is a farmyard drama with a fox getting in among the poultry and lumbering farmers turning up too late on their horses. That - or time to say goodbye to my good friends!

[@JZHerrenberg]

Thanks for this. I'm late to the Haydn party, but what a composer!

[@acerovalderas]

I love Haydn symphonies, and N.80 is one of my favourite.

[@WoodburyWrestling]

6:45 I know its an off beat but I can't hear it.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

It's designed to be confusing at first.

[@shnimmuc]

Great video. I have for years promoted Haydn as a A list composer. He is also one of the most unpredictable. In my mind he is right there with Mozart.

[@DanielFahimi]

Mozart is also incredibly unpredictable.

[@DahansDoesMusic]

i agree.... i am from eisenstadt the place he worked.... he is such an inspiring composer. if you ever think of visiting haydns workplace you can write me :)

[@Richard.Atkinson]

I would love to visit there!

[@john-patrickdickson9663]

Anacrucis was not in the Oxford Dictionary. Hayden’s humour is mostly presented in happy syncopated lollipops, I consider the quartet version of the SEVEN LAST WORDS the peak of listening pleasure. Papa really was the father of sophisticated composition.

[@cimmyjarter]

Very interesting, the obvious rhythmic mastery plus Haydn's famous playfulness. I was and am always struck, when I listen to classical Indian music, how that tradition explored and developed rhythm to majestic degrees but never seemed interested in harmony, whereas in the western classical tradition it's the (nearly) exact opposite.

[@ircensko7324]

Phil Hirschi Being a tabla student I can see where you're coming from. Indian Music really has a intricate rhythm system. Percussion is given its due respect. And since I'm a pianist, I understand the Western side too.

[@0live0wire0]

Well, I beg to disagree. Post 20 century western music uses pretty much every rhythm you can think of. The jazz influence on rhythm is strong too.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Your comment reminded me of one of my favorite Messiaen movements - "Alleluia sur la trompette, alleluia sur la cymbale" from "L'Ascension" that was inspired by classical Indian music (mainly the rhythms, and especially the last section of the movement): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYnbeXWJlt-Ko6c

[@newgeorge]

hilarious! and fiendish to play! Beethoven got lots of his ideas about rhythm and playfulness from Haydn. Sometimes though we lose sight of Beethoven's humour because it tends to be a little on the Germanic side: clonking and in-your-face. Haydn, on the other hand, is rather more subtle.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Yes, I've often thought of Beethoven's humor as bawdy, while Haydn's is more refined. Both hilarious...

[@sanjosemike3137]

@@Richard.Atkinson Richard, I’m thinking about the um-pa-pa beer band passage in the middle of the last movement of the 9th Beethoven Symphony. Bernstein pointed that out. It was NOT subtle for Beethoven to put that in. In the middle of very profound musical and brotherhood ideas, he reminds us to keep a sense of humor. I cannot imagine that was accidental. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)

[@ivansrg05]

The first movement of Beethoven’s 16 Sonata is based on a similar idea of the syncopation.

[@SeadogDriftwood]

Ah, that last example is just so much fun!

[@steffen5121]

Papa Haydn is at it again. ;-D

[@qwe07]

Great video!

[@mikezinn7212]

Brilliant, thank you.

[@DonVueltaMorales]

The Finale to No. 80 (1784) has that intense syncopation that we find at the beginning of Mozart No. 25. i (1773). Then Haydn goes off the rails, as usual.

[@dalmacietis]

In the first example, I'd say measure 4 is both the last of 1st phrase and first of the 2nd phrase, and similarly later.

[@brandonmacey964]

Great videos

[@danielschlosberg]

Expertly done!

[@francis726]

I had always preferred the later Mozart symphonies, but many "musical" friends of mine had always expressed their admiration for Haydn's seemingly inexhaustible inventiveness.

[@powergaming3429]

The last excerpt reminds me of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Julie Overture, with the deceptive syncopation. Very nice video though, interesting to watch. Also act 3 of siegfried please?😊😂

[@gabrielfromyhr5694]

Heard the trio from symphony 88?, very strange harmonies for the time No 28 1st movement is sublime too

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Of course! The strange harmonies are because he based it on modal folk music (and because of the drone bass). The rhythms are also strange as you mention, and it was on the original list of pieces to include in this video.

[@sarabenassi1981]

Yaas mate! Emiolie ovunque I never know how to explain THOSE, my piano teachers thaught me how to ser them and how to play them but still... A bit hard to do. Try the lady movement of the Schumann piano concerto, as a french horn player I could not catch a note (It was also hard to transpose)

[@pistoFF]

NOW i'm ready for Haydn ;)

[@polenc7167]

Yes, this is actually Fair Use. I point this out because false claims of Fair Use are thrown about on the net (not Atkinson of course) Thank you for being honest and respecting copyright holders. But is this piece in the public domain? Or is it the performance that is copyrighted?

[@pawdaw]

Hi Richard, I would like to get to know the Haydn Symphonies better. What are your favourites? Grateful for any recommendations!

[@LanceClark]

Not gonna lie, it took me watching this video *and* following the score to fully realize how deceived I was. Very masterful indeed.

[@caterscarrots3407]

The upbeat in that Symphony no. 80 finale feels like the downbeat for so long, that when Haydn starts the closing theme of the exposition on the actual downbeat, it comes as a rhythmic surprise. When it goes back to the syncopation, it feels resolved somehow. Generally in Mozart, Beethoven, and even Haydn, I hear syncopation being used to add tension, not resolve it. So why does the syncopation resolve rhythmic tension in Symphony no. 80?

[@k.w.1742]

So how will the conductor tap the beats on these kind of rythms? Would that be confusing if tapping the beats as it is?

[@the_eternal_student]

Great composers will always be underrated in worlds that throw masterpieces away to achieve fame instead of genetically engineering a brain that can hold all of the previous discoveries and more.

[@robertwest119]

I have to admit I did not fully understand the full nature and brilliance of Haydn. The rhythmic complexity and humor are truly existing and the contrapuntal sections highly inventive and worthy of .more exploration. Truly and quite amazing is his rhythmic ingenuity. Because of the play and the movie Mozart's has eclipsed Haydn's name. Even before that. The phenomenon surrounding his prodigy and early death are captivating from a biographical attraction are truly captivating. His trips to Italy opened his mind to opera and cemented his ability to write such lovely cantabile lines. Haydn wrote for the instruments with such ingenuity Atkinson picked certain works by Haydn that are truly.remark able. I will never mention Mozart's name without knowing Haydn is juxtaposed beside it!!

[@peterhumphreys7078]

It's worth remembering that Beethoven copied out the central development section of Haydn's Symphony 99 finale *twice*, because he wanted to learn from such a feat of contrapuntal invention. Haydn and Beethoven didn't openly get on, but they respected each other.

[@nunoareia27]

What if in the first example you consider all those half notes with slur as an anacrusis, so that the first 11 mesures are 4+4+4, and so on (or 3)...(with the winds entering "out of sync some way...) Just got me thinking about that. Great videos by the way! The 2nd and 3rd examples cracked me up :D

[@josephsummer777]

Nuno , of course the the first four bars are one gesture. I've no idea how anyone could hear bar four as the beginning of another phrase or gesture. Haydn is clever indeed, but his cleverness is not some forced artificially derived conceit. As you accurately surmise: 4m + 1, anacrusis on second quarter of m 5; anacrusis on second quarter of m 9; anacrusis on second quarter of m 12, anacrusis on second quarter of m 15, und so weiter. Nice uneven lengths, but - as you thoughtfully surmise and we all hear - the winds enter in a clever anticipation.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

​@@josephsummer777 I agree that it sounds like the first 4 measures are one gesture (like I said, the forceful opening note sounds like a downbeat), but for me, the winds enter at exactly the expected moment, after two repeated four-measure phrases. No matter where you think the uncertainty lies, it's uncertain!

[@shnimmuc]

Too complicated for the average listener, which is a pity. People have to work a bit to get Haydn, but my god the rewards are amazing. Such an economy of material. Brilliant stuff Richard.

[@davidecymba]

like very much your videos! i would not call it "ingenuity". in my opinion haydn had a great sense of humor which he put inside his scores. specially the 3rd example is written from a funny genius! ;) p.s. will you make some analysis of bach's organ works?

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Yes, very soon. I want to do one on the St. Anne fugue at least...

[@Jeremie1987]

Mon passage préféré : à partir de 2'30 :-)

[@wolfie8748]

sorry If I am asking stupid question but what is exactly upbeat ?

[@Richard.Atkinson]

The beat before the downbeat: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacrusis

[@PushkaryovVsevolod]

Я не знаю кто ты, но ты толковый человек! Давай ещё!

[@shnimmuc]

Haydn was the most original composer of the Classical period. You can never predict his next musical move. A great genius.

[@DanielFahimi]

I would argue that place is reserved for Mozart.

[@Zimzamzoom95]

@@DanielFahimi Mozart was very predictable in comparison to Haydn.

[@DanielFahimi]

@@Zimzamzoom95 Hah! People can believe what they want, doesn't mean they're right.

[@Zimzamzoom95]

@@DanielFahimi Yes, and that applies to you here especially.

[@DanielFahimi]

@@Zimzamzoom95 It applies to me too, but not in this case. I can be wrong at times, make mistakes. I'm only a human after all, not a god or a genie. But this I do know, I was never more right about anything in my life than saying Mozart is greater than Haydn in just about everything.

[@mavmav0YT]

I struggle to follow the score while listening. Pls send help. I am very interested in understanding everything you talk about, but it is kind of hard because I am not able to properly follow the examples. How can I overcome this.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Maybe start with string quartet scores that have fewer staves? I found it hard to read full scores at first too, and that's why I highlight the important parts with different colors to make it easier.

[@doricdream498]

how about the most badass moments from every haydn symphony? :P

[@ChristianJiang]

Ohh, at first I thought that this video was negative, because in Italian “ingenuità” means “lack of ingenuity” (I’m an Italian speaker)

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Christian Jiang There are very many ‘false friends’ across English and Italian.

[@ChristianJiang]

Elaine Blackhurst I know! But ingenuity is the one that still makes me scratch my head to this day haha, I have to get used to it!

[@christianwagenseil9621]

humour is hugely important in Haydn's music

[@DanielFahimi]

Since you didn't include Mozart in this video, I felt compelled to make a video on Mozart's Rhythmic Ingenuities. The man needs some love too! Anyways, here is the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGXQm3eaYppqqas

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Good job with this video!

[@DanielFahimi]

@@Richard.Atkinson Thanks! :D Which one was your favorite? I also made an embarrassing mistake. When I said upbeat, I meant the downbeat, which is the strongest beat.

[@zhihuangxu6551]

Duple vs. triple phrasing. Probably Beethoven's 9th Symphony 2nd movement is inspired here.

[@Angel33Demon666]

This video is not available?

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Do you live in Germany? For some reason, it's blocked there. I guess they don't buy that the video is fair use.

[@Angel33Demon666]

No, I'm actually not in Germany...

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Then I have no idea what's wrong.

[@SpaghettiToaster]

Fair use is not in German copyright law by the way.

[@dpbmss]

Maybe perhaps in times like we are living through right now we need more Haydn. What we get from Haydn is sound music, frequently very inventive, from a sound mind. We can dispense with much of the emotional realism of the romantics as more pushing and shoving and expressions of reaction to the horrible in life are often not suitable antidotes to the real calamity surrounding us. Haydn is as essential to the musical diet as green salads to the human diet. We welcome all efforts to revive interest in this great composer's contributions to music which are so often unimaginably impressive. Thanks and best PS: for some time Haydn and Handel were regarded as English composers though neither were English. There's a lot of jolly old England about both composers' works.

[@Raffael-Tausend]

The last example feels like being drunk and getting pushed! :-)

[@pianomarianopiano]

Hi! Love your vídeos and explanations ! But... why do you speak like a robot in The introduction?

[@TempodiPiano]

I wish there are videos like this one in French.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Feel free to create subtitles for any of my videos you want!

[@EmdrGreg]

Beethoven must have enjoyed Haydn to no end. It's no wonder he wanted to learn from him.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Greg Scott You’re quite right, Beethoven probably learnt more from Haydn than any other composer...but not from the lessons he took from the older man. Beethoven’s formal lessons which took place between Haydn’s two long trips to England, were almost entirely devoted to completing counterpoint exercises from Fux’s manual ‘Gradus ad Parnassum.

[@EmdrGreg]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Very interesting.

[@RobinKaggl]

Hilarious !

[@paero5947]

In this recording the tempo of the first movement is much too fast

[@Richard.Atkinson]

I like that tempo!

[@aricortez]

Insane is the word...

[@agseu3668]

Hilariantes!

[@nilsisberg5445]

But imagine the conductor...

[@Sofie424]

Why did this pop up in my youtube? What's funny about it? It's lovely music, though.

[@nitetrane98]

So you're saying the word hilarious has a different meaning in music as opposed to real life?

[@elephantgrass631]

Hahaha totally. Even my nerdiest of music nerd buddies don't think this is hilarious. In fact, it's chick repellent.

[@markhughes7927]

Nitetrane98 Hilaritas from which the word comes - is Latin, and it means cheerfulness and merriment. Lots of words gather negative uses but the better use can be retrieved just by using it again in its original way. This is the way the man is using it. Pretty much the whole of Haydn is hilarious or laughter prone. He’s like ‘the Two Ronnies’ rolled into one!

[@VallaMusic]

ah the great Haydn - I could throw out 90% of his music and not miss anything - most of it is a big yawn to me

[@elephantgrass631]

This shit ain't hilarious. I brought it up at an open mic and they booed me off stage.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

Know your audience...

[@elephantgrass631]

XD