3 Levels of Complexity in Piano Styles: Composing-out the Romanesca

Concept, compositions & piano plying by Michael Koch
Disclaimer: I don't want to suggest that the styles of the three shown composers should be ranked in this kind of order in general. All three of them can be very complex (and as well simple) in a certain way.
#Schubert #Schumann #Chopin

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

I approve the term ‘Schumanisation’

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

lol :D

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

00:33 LEVEL 1 (Schubert) 02:44 LEVEL 2 (Chopin) 05:03 LEVEL 3 (Schumann)

[@Supo27.72]

Hey! I noticed an ENORMOUS improvement on sight reading after watching some of your content. This has surely to do with the proper identification of, rather than individual harmonies, building blocks that have different functions in a piece (introduction, sequence, cadential process, interlude...). It is obviously deeply linked to improvising and composing as well. I'm curious, what exercises or concepts would you consider the most valuable for sight reading? Would it be, for example, to learn and get "into the hands" the rule of the octave in all 24 keys? I guess it all adds up. Keep up the good work!

[@Alix777.]

That Schumanisation was impressive.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

yo was it? ha! It's actually hard to estimate for me how this stuff is being perceived by others - when you're mostly used to stew in your own juice, so thanks for your comment!

[@-FranzLiszt]

I am another level :)

[@Alix777.]

@@-FranzLiszt you are a composer for edgy 16 yo weebs. Leave real music to Schumann.

[@-FranzLiszt]

Still me and Chopin are greater. (:`,

[@Dichotomos]

This is both inspiring and funny. Looking forward to more of your content!...subbed!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

good boy :D

[@MusicaAngela]

You are incredibly brilliant! Love this!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Thank you, Angela😅

[@gabrielakochmusic]

So interessant und sehr unterhaltsam! Love it 👍🏼✨

[@bornaerceg9984]

Inspirational as always! Thank you!

[@holtsanders2130]

Wonderful! Thanks so much!

[@natalieploger2370]

Soooo great 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽!!!

[@danieljamesaldis]

Awesome! 👏👏 so interesting, funny, educational and inspiring

[@playbach3243]

Parfait! as usual. 👌

[@albrin]

lovely and super interesting

[@dore6731]

I like so much the video thanks ! very interesting !

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Thank you :)

[@mohammadhosseinrajabi4400]

Fantastic Can you make video about partimenti in brahms music ? Thank you

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Thx :D ... you mean schemata in Brahms' music, right?

[@mohammadhosseinrajabi4400]

@@en-blanc-et-noir yes

[@mohammadhosseinrajabi4400]

@@en-blanc-et-noir could you ?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Hey there, I actually assembled some materials as I wanted to do a Brahms video for long but more on his contrapuntal mastery. But it's a good idea anyway... I'm affraid I've got other plans for upcoming videos in the moment BUT until then you can study his Paganin-variations and you can see what he's drawing from a very simple C5

[@mohammadhosseinrajabi4400]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Thank you 👍

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

This is such a cool channel. I have been pursuing classical/romantic improvisation including baroque for many years now but I have not spent a lot of time with analysis and theory, though I probably have picked up a lot of it by the skin of my teeth. Thank you!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

haha, yo Derek! :DDD Thanks a lot for passing by. You know what: I've seen your video on "my personal exercises on baroque improvisation" many years ago and found them to be very good. You're actually quite a ledge haha!!! I just saw that you uploaded a lot more since then and I'll check that out as well... Great to see you hittin' my channel and I'm glad that it seems to appeal to you! Cheers

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

@@en-blanc-et-noir What is a ledge? Haha. I would love to learn how to realize partimenti fugues. I think I absorbed a portion of Baroque sequences and so forth just from trial and error but I think it is far from complete. What's a good starting place for learning this?

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

@@en-blanc-et-noir I have a split improv personality. The vast majority of the work I do is rooted in a more late romantic early 20th century aesthetic of color based writing without a whole lot of regard to traditional functional harmony. Yet, I did manage to pick up a fair amount of functional common practice era harmony. Every once in a while I record a romantic sounding prelude in the style.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Well a ledge is slang term for legend I guess haha! :D Partimento fugues: well that is a topic I have mixed feelings about as many materials very obviously suck - I dunno if you stumbled upon the "Langloz MS" or the "Musical ABC" already. These are sources dedicated to fugue but most of those pieces simply won't lead to satisfying musical results. There are a lot of fugues in a collection of Partimenti by Zingarelli. In general if you wanna start out on fugue improvisation it's definetely necessary to start with imitations at the octave first because a lot of soggetti and contrapuntal framework of those is well useful of fugue improv as well. There is a lot of Partimenti that train imitations at the octave and are outwright inventions but there is no source - at least that I know - that entirely focusses on this aspect. Have you checked out my videos on fugue improv? 1) kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZC0aIqCn62fmrs 2) kzbin.info/www/bejne/nISzqqx5jMp4nNE And I definetely wanna recommend Leonard Schick's channel: www.youtube.com/@leonardschick5257/videos

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Thanks I'll check those out. I actually had had a copy of the langloz manuscript and I couldn't really "figure" out how use it. I think I got a Handel partimenti exercise once too and this also I didn't really understand. I think I'm too keen on not using schemas and plans with my improvisations. So when I wind up using a sequence it's only because it fell into place intuitively. It's probably lazy of me but, I'm an amateur and my teacher was fond of pure color and rhythm based writing with little regard to functional harmony so that's probably deep in my musical psyche to really modify much at this point 😂 I feel like it'd be cool to chat with you sometime, wondering if just by talking I could pick something up from you say with romantic style preluding that I don't have in my vocabulary yet. Your videos on the topic are really good though so might not be necessary. Have you considered the question of learning a "what" versus developing a "how" for improvisation? It seems to be the paradox one always runs into. To teach how to create new music, you have to give examples..But the examples are no longer new music! So how does one articulate to a student a way to build a "how" for themselves? It's a tough problem to solve. I bumblingly attempt to explain it verbally sometimes but I don't think it's even understandable til someone does it themselves...further deepening the paradox.

[@miriamcarpinetti5140]

👏👏👏

[@KaznoMusix]

Sehr gut👍

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

merci :D

[@johnrothfield6126]

3:00 beautiful

[@luisdiaz05]

Excellent! 👍🏾 Could you make a video talking about the Chaconne (Handel style) ?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Deffo among the next vids

[@LorenzoCacciotti]

I really appreciate this kind of videos! Can you recommend me some other resources for training baroque and romantic improvvisation?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Hey thanks, happy that those are enjoyable! Ok then: when you type "Partimento" or "classical improvisation" into the search box you'll find the usual suspects. Besides that I want to highlight some, try these: Nicola Canzano's channel "parallel fifths", then there's a really good video by Adam Merter Birson on Haydn's apprenticeship: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHnZpainf5VqerM, then of course a rock solid channel is Early Music Sources - they're mostly targeting at earlier music but there's videos on "cadences" the "cadenza doppia", one on "Partimento" and one on the "rule of the octave" and I highly recommend all of these. Top notch improvisations and compositions (besides by the mentioned Canzano) you'll find on the channels by Borogrove (baroque), Edoardo Brotto (romantic), Sietze de Vries (baroque) and of course Robert Levin (classical). If you're asking for other Resources: there's a page Partimenti.org by Scholar Robert Gjerdingen on 18th/19th century Partimento stuff and all kinds of surrounding sources. Books and materials on Partimento are available by Peter Van Tour, Giorgio Sanguinetti (both English), Bob Gjerdingen (all monographs) and there's a good instructional textbook type by Job Izerman. Best instrucional resources I know are unfortunately in German, in case you can read German: www.stretta-music.de/holtmeier-menke-diergarten-solfeggi-bassi-e-fughe-nr-331865.html www.amazon.de/Compendium-Improvisation-Fantasieren-historischen-Jahrhunderts/dp/379653709X

[@LorenzoCacciotti]

@@en-blanc-et-noir thanks!

[@Melopoeta]

Great video! Loved the Schumann more Schumann than Schumann

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

:DD thank you!

[@microtubuleman3823]

Well done with the Schumanization at the very end! Can I ask about the harmony in the last two systems of your final Romanesca/Cadence? What chords/voice leading are you employing in those last 8 measures, and how do they work in the greater context of the B-flat major/C minor key areas?

[@microtubuleman3823]

*Particularly, what are the function of the chord with A-flat, C and D (6 bars from the end) and the chord with C, E, and B-flat (5 bars from the end), and the voice leading 4 bars from the end where the A-flat resolves to a G atop a C, D, and F?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

@@microtubuleman3823 THX! Well, I'd call this a stretched out final cadence with some precadential chords circling around the 5 in the bass: 4 as 7th chord and french 6th on 6. The following 5-1 is kinda deceptive as it lieads into a V7/iv above the tonic in the bass which is a concept a Partimentisto would label as "quiesczenza" which is a schema for a final pedalpoint in the 1st degree in the bass with a digression to the IV above it (a very common strategy for a final cadence already in the baroque era). The thing is that I leave out the ordinary resolution to the minor i but replacing it with the secondary dominant V7/iv instead which is a thing I saw - besides several other romantic examples - in the final cadence of Schumann's Op. 111, 1 that I was practicing around that time (check it out). Antother thing is that I was motivated by a stepwise/ partly chromatic line in the upper voice B-Bb-A-Ab-G above the pedal so I actually did not target the iv that the C7 is intending but replace f minor by that diminished 7th chord with A as topnote (because of the chromatic), the reason why this is plausible is because the the Bb of the C7 is resolved like it normally would be (alto clause). If you still can follow: that chord afterwards with A flat on top to me is a normal precadential chord (iv as "sixte ajoutée: F-Ab-C-D, as we call it in Germany) but of course above the pedal. That's basically my thoughts about this passage, I now see that it is actually a bit complex, but definetely within the boundaries of what you can see in Schumann or Brahms.

[@classicalmusic2027]

So good! wish I could compose better do you have any videos for beginners like me?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

The two vidz on Corelli maybe? Or that one on the Romanesca or as well on the Circle of 5ths...

[@classicalmusic2027]

@@en-blanc-et-noir ok I'll check them out

[@timothyj.bowlby5524]

Nice. Composing out (oder auskomponierung auf Deutsch) is a VITAL concept that can't possibly be overstressed. Thanks. How about taking all the skill and experience you have and try developing your OWN distinct voice? That's hard... and the really fun part of writing.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Individualisierung eines Gerüstsatzes :DDD so nenne ich das auf deutsch. Some people seem to have associated this term "outcomposing" with Schenker - that I'm not very aquainted with. What I've seen so far looks good but he's kinda on the "worshipping the masters"-side and this is an ideology that makes me sick - there is a very representative comment here in the section LOL

[@timothyj.bowlby5524]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Apparently Schenker didn't like music that didn't "fit into" his system.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

HAHA, I know! Well I guess the same thing can be said about several "Partimentisti" :DDD

[@timothyj.bowlby5524]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Partimentisti... sounds like a weird kind of licorice candy!

[@johnrothfield6126]

Could you spell out the romanesca VRRY slowly? thks

[@AlessandroSistiMusic]

He has other videos on it! You can search for his channel name and the word "Romanesca"

[@erggish]

What are those numbers like 46,7,9 etc?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

figured bass ✌️😌

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

Chopin was not realistic. He almost never starts a phrase on the tonic. If he does, then he usually modulates a fifth away, or to the relative major.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

lol... :D just checked the index of my Nocturnes edition and 16 of 21 Nocturnes begin on the tonic... at least two of those that don't start on the tonic have a little "free" intro that leads to the initial phrase - that begins on the tonic (statistical realitiy check within a selcted repertoire) so that's "almost never" you say? That other thing you mention is called "primary modulation" and this is a thing that happens in any arbitrary piece of the common practice era, so is defo not Chopin-specific.

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

@@en-blanc-et-noir I am very interested in this query. So I checked out all of Chopin's Mazurkas, excluding the posthumous ones. In his early Mazurkas (op. 6 - op. 41), he started on the tonic 45% of the time, whereas, in his late mazurkas, he starts on the tonic 72% of the time. I didn't include the intros. I don't know exactly what to make of it, but it is interesting. I also checked his waltzes, and including the posthumous ones, and 68% of them start on the tonic. For the etudes, the only ones that don't start on the tonic are op. 25 no. 2 and op. 25 no. 8. This is pretty understandable, as we know from Chopin's writings that he didn't intend all of the etudes to be musical masterpieces. He was actually mad that op. 10 no. 5 was a popular performance piece. For the preludes, 71% of them start on the tonic, which is actually a smaller number than I expected, given that they so clearly define each key. The more I think of it, it's obvious why Chopin used the tonic so much in the Nocturnes, he wanted them to feel settled and calm.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

:D well that is a proper reply I‘d say… you know what? I didn‘t draw the mazurkas from the shelf yesterday because I already could see this coming😂 you‘re right and very good and highly appreciated that you took the time to be thorough about this. Actually a highly interesting topic, btw did you observe what is the opening progression then? i know Chopin loves to enter from the dominant If you watched some other romantic pieces/improvs on the channel you‘ll notice that in several cases I don‘t start on the tonic as well, e.g. I adress this topic in my last video (prelude from scratch) I‘m kinda surprised by your comment on the etudes, as I find some of the most interesting pieces of the repertoire among them… …so in your logic, to be a masterpiece a piece can‘t start on the tonic? Btw it comes to my mind that e.g. Brahms seemed to be much more conservative about this. thanks for commenting

[@-FranzLiszt]

Where am i :( Me and Chopin are really better than Schumann

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

get a grip

[@-FranzLiszt]

You could use theme of Un sospiro for my Level