3 Pentecostals Debate Us on "The Great Apostasy"

#Mormon #LatterDaySaints #kwakuel #cardonellis #braderico #Christianity #LDS
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[@Not_so_greatScott]

Kudos to both sides for keeping it real and respectful. A far cry from some of my mission experiences.

[@WARDRADIO]

These guys are cool and we’ve become friends so the conversations can be powerful and edgy but they “get it” that above all, Christianity is manifest through ministering to the widows and the fatherless more than “dunking on” apostates. This allows for better conversations. Truly, we have yet to scum the surface with these guys!

[@Not_so_greatScott]

@@WARDRADIO Very cool. I learned quite a bit from them and appreciate the perspective they bring. And I'm learning a lot from Midnight Mormons on how to debate with love and understanding without compromising our beliefs. I tend to get argumentative and you all are showing me a better way to engage. Best content out there!

[@alisamcharness3947]

@@Not_so_greatScott Cordon did a stellar job in this episode of keeping the conversation focused and restating things back for clarity.

[@timovesterinen3611]

I wamly recommend to ask orthodox priest fr, Joshua Trenham to discuss about the apostasy. He really knows about these issues!

[@GrandmaKnightLife]

Jesus didn’t build his church on Peter, but on what Peter said, when Peter said that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

[@shireecox122]

Now this LDS Apologetics at its best. Not the arguments, but the conversations, the truth explained clearly. Thank you guys!

[@jonahbarnes5841]

Brad won this whole thing in his first statement. Beautiful. Great content and moderating from Cardon. I could watch stuff like this all day.

[@Hamann9631]

They never made a coherent argument (in my opinion) about whey they shouldn't be Roman Catholic, if there is no Great Apostacy.

[@DerGlaetze]

This is what I always bring up too. Why not do they become Catholic then?

[@alisamcharness3947]

As a former evangelical/Pentecostal I was reminded in this episode why I left (years before I became LDS)- a total inability to engage in a religious conversation without constantly proof texting and avoidance of addressing the actual rhetorical question being posed. The guests never clearly stated what they believed about any doctrine of a great apostasy. They constantly referred to scripture warning of apostasy written before our doctrine claims it happened. The reality is Pentecostals believe it hasn’t happened yet and will occur at some point in the end times, and naturally it won’t be them. The guests also refer to the lineage of authority held by the Catholic Church without addressing what authority entails and what happens when it is abused. The reality is they don’t believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, they believe in the authority and priesthood of all believers. All that evangelicals are taught to do is proof text, often without context, to prove their ideas rather than form them. Cordon did an outstanding job of moderating the conversation, giving everyone time, staying on topic, clarifying and restating points.

[@Apostolinen]

Well said 👍. This is the impression I got from this conversation 100%. I feel like I ran against this wall on my mission and later conversations with Pentecostals and it has always baffled me, because it's almost as if they're not even listening to what is being said. Also, what is it with this concept of breathing scripture into being? It's obviously important to certain Christians, but I've failed to grasp the significance of the idea. Why is it important that God breathed the scriptures?

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

Theopneustos =\= necessarily mean god breathed. It means scripture is LIFE GIVING just like God breathed life into Adam. Not that God’s breath literally gave us scripture. More eisegesis from their part.

[@Apostolinen]

@@alejandrovalenzuela377 thanks for the clarification 👍

[@lemjwp1756]

Great to hear your story. I've been talking with a Pentecostal friend who so far has been unable to hear the restored gospel.

[@alisamcharness3947]

@@Apostolinen because Protestantism in America largely rejected any ecclesiastical structure where the authority comes from ordination by some one who was ordained etc. the source for authority shifted to the scriptures themselves and the Bible is considered to be the perfect, Uncorrupted word of God. God breathed in the sense that it came from the mouth of God (this is the predominant understanding of the meaning “god breathed” that is held and taught. I too saw Ian Mcclellan’s video on the translation of “god breathed” and it was completely new idea to me). It’s much the same attitude that people have about the BoM being perfect. The Joseph Smith Papers podcast did an excellent episode on the history of religion in America and how that impacted attitudes towards scripture.

[@shireecox122]

I’m grateful that I was born again at my baptism, at the age of 8 years old, by immersion, into the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. And that I was also given, through the proper priesthood authority, the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. I’m eternal thankful.

[@spitingMYverse]

@@harryhenderson2479 I can’t speak for them… but I know because the Holy Spirit has showed me signs/miracles as revealed by the Holy Spirit after the trial of my faith.

[@spitingMYverse]

@@harryhenderson2479 many that are personal and sacred to me. I can’t exactly share all the things I’ve seen manifest through the power of his Holy Spirit, and priesthood power. There is a lot I hold tight to me. I will witness to you this this: I can tell you with certainty that his priesthood is in this church. I will share one example,as it is not personal to me, nonetheless I witnessed it. A healing that could only come through the power of Christ. A woman in my church/ward who was stuck in her wheelchair for 30 years. Healed. Walking around. My father was there and watched as our former bishop pronounced her healed with a laying on of hands. She wasn’t even asking to be healed. She was asking to be comforted in her pain. The Holy Spirit moved him to say those words, it surprised my father, who told me even he was like “oh boy, did he really just say that”. She was up walking around within the week. She went from being completely hunched over in a wheelchair- to walking. These stories are common amongst our people. We don’t often share them, because we follow the example of the savior not to cast our pearls before swine(not that people of different faiths are swine lol but what Christ is saying is pertinent to these things). It’s best to keep sacred things between you, God, and anybody the spirit moves upon you to share with. Truly everything can be explained away except a witness from the Holy Spirit, after a trial of faith, and even that can be explained away, but not without consequences-the unforgivable sin. I will also, share the most important miracle to me and my life. The miracle of having my heart changed by Christ, ultimately is the one that is greatest to me. To be healed of my sins; he continues to work miracles to bring about my salvation and the salvation of all. The way he has guided that, through the Holy Spirit; to me is a miracle. Its how he’s witnessed to me the truth of the restoration, and the work he has commissioned his church/covenant people to do in these last days. The lovingkindness and graceful guidance of my savior. To me that is the greatest miracle.

[@shireecox122]

@@harryhenderson2479 I just do, and you can too. It takes an effort on your part though.

[@shireecox122]

@@spitingMYverse yes, our spiritual experiences are so sacred, and personal. It’s best to hold them close to your heart. When other’s put in the effort to know the truth, they will have their own sacred experiences as well.

[@spitingMYverse]

@@shireecox122 well said Shiree. God bless you.

[@markstenquist2315]

God gave more scripture than is recorded in the bible. He continues to do so for our benefit and learning. That's one of the biggest differences in belief between us and other faiths. The absolutism of the bible is a stumbling block, imo.

[@josephactive5592]

Another logical fallacy ur clearly brainwashed ur choosing Jospeh smith a convicted conman over Jesus

[@GwPoKo]

These Pentecostal guys were pretty cool! Hope we can see them again. I loved the civil conversations and general funness involved even though there were some serious topics discussed!

[@KnuttyEntertainment]

If Saint Nicholas was one of the last to hold the priesthood, then isn’t it interesting how Christmas is a celebration of both the birth of Christ and the legacy of Saint Nicholas. The beginning and the end of the dispensation of Christ.

[@MichaelRogerStDenis]

This sort of content is so important! Thank you for organizing this, I hope there's more denominations invited in the future!

[@jonahbarnes5841]

TIL that in order to deny the Mormons a win, Pentacostals will embrace the crusades and papal orgies.

[@DIYWeekend]

Great episode. This serves as even more affirmation that the LDS church is the truest and only living church of Christ.

[@DW-ko4pd]

Wow! respectfully the pentecost Bros got schooled. Great job Brad Kwaku & Cardon. The restored Gospel will go forth for those who are willing to listen.

[@lootingiv4058]

I am always cautious and don't really like watching debates because I have a strong testimony of the restoration that I cannot deny, that I don't want my views to be twisted and take into account certain things others can say that isn't actual true doctrine. But I know these guys know their stuff so decided to give it a try. And you are right. Those guys got absolutely destroyed.

[@brg1213]

@@lootingiv4058not really

[@brg1213]

Revelation warns about the “latter days”, they call themselves “latter day saints” 🤔

[@mattc1647]

​@@brg1213Revelation also warns that 2 prophets will be killed in the streets of Jerusalem. If there aren't any more prophets after Jesus how will that come to pass?

[@kimshe5529]

Thank you Midnight Mormons for this sacred work of gathering you are doing in striving to get on the same page with our fellow Christians. Keep up the good work. Hopefully the continuation of this conversation will be soon.

[@corybritton1966]

Mormons don't have fellow Christians because you're NOT Christian!!!

[@isaacerickson6312]

And this wasn't a debate. It was just a good old conversation about religion. How it should be.

[@Canut0]

Brad wins the debate and Cardon loses 🤣 jk .... but that was a great line that went something like "similar to Jesus' death and resurrection, so did Christ Church" ❤️

[@Heartsinmelody]

Jeff Lindsay wrote about this on his blog years ago. Quote: Did death (the word "hell" referred to here is really the Greek word Hades) prevail over Jesus Christ? Of course not. He triumphed over death. But He DID die - yet returned to life, an immortal, glorious, resurrected Being. If Christ, against whom the gates of death did not prevail, could die, then is it not possible that His Church could also die - and later be brought back to life (restored)?

[@jasminejones3576]

Interesting conversation. It’s very interesting to see others perspectives. I have mad respect for any Christian denomination.

[@stever808]

Me too. It takes great faith to hang in there, ignoring the differences between the 46,000 Protestant and Catholic Churches and just focus on the basics. For them, the rest is just noise. I wish they felt the same way about the differences they have with us.

[@TheYgds]

At one time, I could have been civil with Evangelicals and Pentacostals. I started my mission thinking that people of the protestant world were our brothers and sisters in Christ, but after a year of work among them, attending their meetings and observing the conduct of their leaders, I completely changed my mind. These days, after serving a mission among them in the American South, to hear that they are willing to cuddle up next to each other and even the Catholic Church in this "ecumenical" buddy-buddy relationship, I realize that such civility is no longer merited. They were as vociferously antagonistic towards the Catholics in 2005 as they were to us when I served my mission. When they were having us murdered and lynched in the 19th century, they were burning down Catholic Churches. How is it that the Catholics are now saved and the members of the Restored Church are not? It is because Satan has full control of their organizations, their teachers and their Churches. This supposition of an ecumenical united front is a sham, made purely because they do not want to accept that the authority of God resides with those dirty mormons, their words, not mine. They would rather make oblations to the Pope and Rome than to God's restoration. Utterly disgusting and pretentious. They teach our doctrines in their Church, and then declare us heretics. If I had not heard it from their mouths that "Man shall become as God!" I would not have believed it. The "Church of Christ" in America, who denounces the use of instrumental music in worship services, opposed with forcefulness the Baptists and all of the other denominations as being under the influence of Satan. The same with the Seventh-Day Adventists and the lack of prophecy and God's appropriate Sabbath on Saturday. Each would, in their turn, be calling each other to repentance, there was no unity. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we were merely the most hated, of a whole swath of hated denominations. Furthermore, not one preacher, deacon, minister or otherwise, made an appeal to Christ's authority through the Church fathers, all claimed it through ecstatic means. To now say otherwise is such tripe. This does not even begin to touch on the rancid wickedness that pervaded so many of the Churches there, the worst being those who indulged in Charismatic worship. From inviting the few wealthy members to flaunt their wealth in front of a poverty stricken congregation, to a minister that handed out pornography during the service, to yet another that endorsed the practice of "free love" and only gave sermons on sex. This is the second time I've heard this drivel come from the protestants, and it is an utter re-writing of their own history and truth claims. I see no other reason for this ecumenical movement, which specifically excludes us, as being merely another move to unite at some time against the Restored Church and it's members. To justify again our marginalization, persecution and eventual slaughter. I trust little that flows from their teachers mouths, particularly when there are so many that know of the truth of the Church, yet stay away from it for the love of their careers as popular teachers.

[@jaredite8388]

I understand your frustration since I remember the vitriol I also experienced some times being directed at us on my mission. But you need to chill and remember to bless those who curse you. If they don't repent from such behavior, they are only heaping coals upon their own heads for the judgement day.

[@Apostolinen]

Dude, I'm getting some serious PTSD vibes from this. They sent you down south and you saw and heard things no Christian should ever have to deal with: charismatic revival preachers, TV-evangelism, Baptist hunger games, and closing prayers accompanied with christian prog rock background music. I salute you. You returned with honor, but a part of you died down there. On a more serious note, I agree to much of what you are saying. There's this contradicting view of history Christians have (not only recent history, but the church history itself) and this often displayed self righteousness gets really old really fast (not saying there was any of it on this podcast). Still, Christ expects us to chill and extend our hand to our brothers and sisters in faith, so let's do that ;)

[@TheYgds]

@@Apostolinen You go ahead. I honestly think the time for "Daniels" have passed and the need for "Elijahs" has returned. I'd rather see their seminaries consumed by heavenly fire than see us have to endure the furnace's heat yet again.

[@stever808]

They unite against a common enemy: God’s Kingdom on earth, His restored Church. When they are not bashing us, they are at each other’s throats. These three, however, might hope for what they claim to be true . . . one day. These three seem sincere. Who knows.

[@countryboyred]

Mormons aren’t Christians. You literally preach a different Jesus, God, and gospel.

[@jaspermagee]

So they appeal to the Catholic pedigree of authority for their legitimacy, which makes me wonder how they have continued that and by what right do their pastors operate outside of it?

[@kirkwhitaker6824]

Great conversation. Looking forward to the next one!

[@austinandersen5765]

I loved this. Can we have an hour of just Brad though? He kept asking the exact questions I had. Cardon's and Kwaku's questions and remarke were good as well, but Brad's questions follow my same line of thinking almost perfectly.

[@lemjwp1756]

Brad, Kwaku and Cardon gave some excellent rebuttals on apostasy, authority, and gates of hell prevailing! I learned some good stuff! So nice to see such a respectful tone!

[@TalonRoar]

I love how respectful you guys are! You don’t falter or sway, but you treat others with love. That’s some Christ-like behavior right there! Keep up the good work guys! You’re such an encouragement!

[@dalecash2236]

Apostolic authority ended with the death of the 12 alive when Jesus died. That's why the catholic Church has always been led by Bishop's, which are local authorities. At some point, they decided to elect an arch bishop to provide a centralized leader. That has always been a man made appointment.

[@kathyharbarger13]

I don't think the Evangelicals ever understood Cordon's question about the great Apostasy, because they didn't answer it.

[@kathyharbarger13]

*Cardon

[@stever808]

I think they believe it happened and is always happening, but that little “seed” of their interpretation of the Bible survived; that’s the doctrinal apostasy. Then, they believe their authority comes through corrupt Popes who bought and sold sex slaves. I think that is how they answered the question.

[@cartermode1583]

I want to see them debate the trinity on Jacob Hansen’s show that would be fun. And definitely a part 2 on this as well. Thanks for sharing! Let Kwaku talk more also 😂.

[@isaacerickson6312]

Your guests are great guys with strong faith. Have them on again.

[@tylerwastl2624]

This was a great episode! Recently I've been learning about the Orthodox Church because it's the only "traditional" Christian church that interests me as a Latter-day Saint, and this question came to mind: If there wasn't a Great Apostasy, then their claim of being the original church would have some weight to it. If it did happen, and the Priesthood was taken, then our claim of a Restoration has weight. It would be interesting to have this conversation with 3 Orthodox brothers!

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

The Reformation IS the great apostasy.

[@tylerwastl2624]

@@catherinemcdavid1533 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would disagree with you, but the Reformation did happen towards the end of the Great Apostasy.

[@rconger384]

Have wondered about how "primitivists" such as pentecostals and evangelicals can go on about Sola Scriptura yet teach doctrines based on 3rd to 5th century creeds.

[@Thomas-vb4bu]

The chillest Bible Bash of all time. God Bless

[@ChapinaUSA]

Thank you to our beautiful Pentecostal brothers for this conversation.

[@southaucklandpain9047]

I sense alot of confusion with our pentecostal brothers.😕 still one love ❤

[@3-jalee]

Why can't all talk this way to one another... you guys are awesome. Cardon, Brad & K, you guys, I know were amazing missionaries. 🙏❤️

[@ancresdanslaconnaissance]

What a great discussion! I love learning from Evangelicals, Protestants and Pentecosts. Respect for these 3 guys, they know what they are talking about...from a strong Lds.

[@nathanbigler]

Everyone is praying for Kwaku during his challenging time. Not me, but Mormons probably are. I can't wait to hear his update about dog reptile people on Kolob.

[@Thehaystack7999]

Well done. I still can’t understand how the Holy Spirit is the authority when everyone claims the Holy Spirit yet disagree. There has to be a restoration, that has always been the pattern.

[@WARDRADIO]

And now you even have Antis taking the tactic that the Spirit is UNtrustworthy! That your feelings in your heart are deceptive and dangerous. See our episode on conference protestors...

[@jodylivingston]

Loved the conversation. Mad respect to both sides for being civil and funny as well as very spiritual. Great job again Midnight Mormons.

[@alatterdaysaintonfire5643]

Everytime I here someone bring up Galatians, and quotes the verse, teach another gospel let them be accursed, I want to shake them and ask them , do you even understand who Paul was talking to and why he made such a statement. Paul was specifically talking to the Gentiles who were hated by the Jews who were followers of Christ. These Jews were racist and were telling the Gentiles that they were not of Abraham and therefore not of the covenant because they were not circumcised. This is the theme throughout all the epistles, including Romans when it refers to grace.

[@Sayheybrother8]

I find this story fascinating as well and would like your thoughts on my understanding of what Paul was saying. I thought the newly converted Jewish Christians were teaching that gentile converts must be circumcised if they are to be part of the new Christian movement. What am I misunderstanding here?

[@alatterdaysaintonfire5643]

@@Sayheybrother8 you did not miss much. The Jewish community was not accepting of outsiders, including the Samaritans and the gentile. The Jews who had joined the Christian movement was holding on to exclusivity and used the law of circumcision as an obstacle for gentile converts. I love this thought in the book of Romans. Those who know the law are blessed by the law they keep. Those who do not keep the law that they know will be judged by the law. And the reverse is, those who do not know the law will neither be condemned by the law, but if they learn of the law and are willing to keep the law, they will also be blessed by that law.

[@dalecash2236]

I would call tens of thousands of Christian denominations the epitomy of subjectivity.

[@PrinceHumperdink]

Cardon: Then why did Martin Luther nail 91 thesis’s … Brad: It was 95. Cardon: oops my bad, then why did he nail 94 thesis’s … EJJ: *silently praying* Lord help this man

[@WARDRADIO]

I did screw that up more times than I feel Comfortable with. Lol

[@EricHancock]

99% of Christians today have not read those man-made creeds. And, there are literally dozens of biblical scriptures that do not jive with just the Nicene Creed alone.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

Identify the biblical scriptures that are not in line with the Nicene Creed.

[@EricHancock]

@@catherinemcdavid1533There are several Bible verses that seem to plainly identify God the Father and Jesus as separate beings. For example, Jesus prayed to His father in the garden. " Father, let this cup pass from me, Nevertheless, not my will, but thy will be done" Stephen saw Jesus standing next to God. God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, not himself. Only the Father knows the hour of Jesus's return, not even the son knows. God the Father spoke from heaven when Jesus was baptized. Etc.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

@@EricHancock The Catholic Church teaches there is One God in 3 divine persons, not 3 persons in one God. Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

[@hayteren]

This was super interesting. But based on what the Penta Bros said, they believe in a very confusing God that doesn't really lead.

[@S7ZEE]

I loved the “why aren’t you guys Catholics?”

[@DJ7223]

My question: Is baptism essential to Salvation, and should it be done as was done with Christ, full immersion?

[@skywalker5026]

If you want to attain the highest degree of glory, then yes. Latter Day Saints follow the example of Christ by being fully immersed in the water, and baptizing in the authority and name of Jesus Christ

[@pigetstuck]

You should have a catholic, orthodox and more historically connected protestant

[@pigetstuck]

or have Michael Lofton on...

[@traditionallenses]

@@pigetstuck no lofton is historically illiterate

[@pigetstuck]

@@traditionallenses um....

[@jalohabrown]

Thank you to the Pentecostal brothers who came on, and to the spirit of love I felt was shared. It dawned on me during this episode that even if you don’t believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet called to “restore” Christ’s gospel. There is no reason for all the Christian denominations to almost universally deny Mormons the title of “Christian”. All the founders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints came from a Christian faith, so at the very least, they should be afforded the same privileges as any other Christian reformers as merely wanting different “preferential” practices, because the core of believing in being “born again” is not disputed.

[@stever808]

They can’t allow us in. We disagree with them on the Trinity, which they do not understand and can’t explain. Nor do they accept the pre mortal life, the need for the fall (they think Eve really messed up), the need for baptism by authority, the destiny of mankind, the need for ordinances or the need for repentance (once you are saved, that’s it). Rejecting these truths is foundational for them. Too much has been restored, because too much was lost.

[@cptn-4085]

Pentecostals defending the Catholic Church's claim to priesthood lineal authority?! Haha great episode guys. These kinds of respectful conversations really help intellectually nourish my testimony that the Father and the Christ have called prophets and apostles again on the Earth in the latter days in preparation for His Second Coming and Thousand year reign.

[@scratPhd]

This is cool that you are doing this. I always like it when Latter Day Saints and non-Latter Day Saints can speak to one another with respect and answer or ask sincere questions. Religious conversations can be a challenge as we struggle to explain and/or listen with real intent to understand one another.

[@soneedanap]

Thank you for demonstrating how to debate without being jackasses:). Loved it.

[@wrekh]

They always loose me when they say Christ is GOD. ie God the father and Jesus Christ are the same person.

[@6barbers]

We’ll done. Conversations without contention

[@joehawkins3823]

I had to pause the video and laugh when they chose to open with first Jude, and the different readings, as an example of the gospel being delivered all at once. As if the Bible was written all at once. I’m sure the Jewish sects used that verse against Jesus and his apostles.

[@Greg-McIver]

Positive and great exchange. Cardon, Brad and Kwaku scored the most points on logic and reason. Jesus' testimony and Church was founded on revelation. That's what the Savior said to Peter, not that the Church would be established upon one man, but upon revelation: "But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The Church would not be founded on flesh and blood. The gates of hell prevailed against Peter and hung him upside down in Rome of all places. All the apostles were murdered except John (couldn't be killed as blessed by Christ) and things spun out of control after they were gone. The residual absorbed into unholy political Org that killed and persecuted true believers throughout the centuries. It suppressed and altered the doctrine and ordinances of Christ. The pentecostals brothers get points on belief in Jesus but are simply disobedient Catholics.

[@bplionel2]

When I heard that said, I was hoping there would be something mentioned about it. It's as if they're only focused on one part, cherry-picking the part about Peter's name, instead of looking at the whole conversation between Christ and His Apostles.

[@TheHoustonscotty]

You’ve got to get them on for a part 2. There’s a lot left on the table here!

[@shibainferno]

Thanks to the efforts of these three Pentecostal brethren, this was my first time understanding why evangelicals don’t see a need for restoration or for the LDS concept of priesthood. Thank you!

[@SpiritualBerserker]

Nice guys, but you all knew what they believed more than what they believed. 😂

[@danascully7358]

The middle guy was saying that everything that God says is perfect, but we know that there are lots of interpretations of scriptures. And the people that translated them weren't perfect so although god's words are perfect, it doesn't mean that what a fallible man writes is perfect. And just because God's words are perfect doesn't mean we interpret his words correctly.

[@stever808]

They rely on men to translate and interpret for them. They have to.

[@MormonBookReviews]

It's cool you guys did this!

[@Angel.A]

These guys were cool. They set a good example that I wish other Christian groups would follow.

[@shireecox122]

But family lines don’t necessarily make a worthy priesthood line. That’s great that there’s a good genealogy, but it’s worthiness that counts. This is a proven point made in the Old Testament with Eli and Samuel. Samuel wasn’t the next in line. He was just there, at the Temple, as a favor to his mother. Eli’s 2 sons were in line, and due to their evil ways, were passed over. Genealogy really means nothing without the worthiness factor.

[@LeoMichalek]

wonderful respectful conversation.. kudos to both sides. lets do more of these please.

[@vonsowards1297]

I’m surprised that they actually committed to some of the doctrinal tenets such as church authority. Most Protestants just stand their ground on the Bible giving them authority and the Catholics are going to hell. One of the guys was saying that Jesus’s words are like this seed that will always stay consistent even if people corrupt or twist it. But he fail to address what happens if a people only have the corrupted or twisted version of it? Is there ever a point that it is so corrupted and twisted that it is no longer the true thing? It just comes down to that they have faith that the Bible is has not been corrupted (even though the stewards of it were corrupted). Where to believe the Book of Mormon is true means that you believe it was given to the earth by God to a prophet of God and has been managed exclusively by prophets of God ever since. And that does require faith.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

Ancient, first century Christian writings, Teachings of the Apostles do not show that anything there that is not in the Catholic Church today. There is no baptism of the dead. There is no teaching in the temple. The plain and precious that was lost, is post reformation with the downgrading of the Eucharist to a mere symbol. First century Christians did not treat the Eucharist as a symbol. They referred to the sacrament as the Body and Blood of Christ. Those who had not been baptized could not partake of it. One was required to fast before partaking of the Eucharist. Looks nothing like the post-reformation churches.

[@Sayheybrother8]

It sounds like there are thousands of transcripts of the Biblical writings we have that were copied or translated as far back as 50-100yrs after Christ. They all seem to have the same stories and not a lot of doctrinal contradictions. There are some things that are interpreted differently but no evidence of ordinances or temple doctrines. If those things were taught then there must have been a very serious effort to steal and destroy any copies of that mentioned these things from hundreds of scribes across multiple continents. I can see that it could be the case but the more likely story is we have what was taught from written accounts really soon after Christ died. The earliest account named Matthew that exists was written approximately 40-50 AD. I’d like to know if there are any scholars who know about this stuff who believe there was a concerted effort made by someone to destroy evidence of temple ordinances.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

@@Sayheybrother8 One, there would be no reason to destroy them if that were the case. Two, the early Christian writings come from many areas and they all present the same unified gospel and teachings. This long before the word “catholic” was assigned to the universal church. Nothing there about temple ordinances, even if supposedly there and understood, there is no evidence of that in Old Testament scripture. The writings of one of the early church fathers is addressing the unending false religions of the time .. pages and pages of documents, even in those writings there is no mention of temple ordinances that would have been there and removed as part of an apostasy.

[@stever808]

@@catherinemcdavid1533I see parts of temple ordinances in the Bible and in the writings of early church fathers. You wouldn’t know because you know nothing of the temple ordinances.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

@@stever808 I know a good bit about the temple ordinances .. I loved the temple and went often. I was a temple ordinance worker and trust me, I know more about what went on in there than most people who attended. As beautiful as the temple is, and I mean spiritually, not necessarily structurally, because it is holy because of the faith of the Saints is not ignored by the Lord, he is there.. But true temple worship is not found there. We are all sealed to Christ, a union that no earthly union can or will surpass. He is the bridegroom, we, the church are his bride. To even assume we are entitled to continue some earthly bond in heaven because of our actions is not part of the true gospel. It is actually an eternal prosperity gospel that gives people a false sense of security and changes the focus off a pure love God and focus on their eternal plans. Can we be with our families? Yes, but it will be through the mercy and love of Christ, not something we earned because we joined a certain church and did certain acts.

[@GMMXX80]

Almost a year ago. Theres a couple of things that I've learned recently that I didn't know about the Great Apostacy have actually come from other faiths and it's apparent that other faiths recognized this was a thing. I don't know about how it's taught to today, but in my time it was taught the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually have a lot of respect for what is called The Reformers. John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and John Calvin are actually respected for their turning from the Catholic Church in order to spark personal study. It wasn't until the Restoration, however, that someone would actually approach God and ask him so the Reformers jump started the change. I've been able to study St. Ignatius of Antioch lately and the letters he wrote to the Saints while he was imprisoned awaiting a martyrs death, he was to be fed alive to beasts and the Saints were going to break him out but he told them No. It's believe that St. Ignatius was one of the children that Jesus had gathered around when he blessed the children, though it's not for certain, but Ignatius was a big fan of the Apostle John who called him and set him apart as the Bishop of Antioch. It's awesome to learn through Ignatius that God had an order, when Jesus organized the Church and Paul wrote of it to the Saints in Ephesus, when the Apostles were being killed, we know this, that the Saints went to Ignatius and asked him for guidance and Ignatius understood the Priesthood, his office, and his authority and replied to the Saints, in essence, "I am but a Bishop". Ignatius knew he authority only stretched so far and wasn't going to overstep his bounds while other Bishops were taking on roles they had no authority to be to so when the council in Nicea happened, you had all this input from Bishops that didn't have the authority. Ignatius turned it down, he saw the Church crumbling and told the saints that he would do his best with what he had, but he wasn't an Apostle, he couldn't receive revelation on behalf of the whole Church, he understood that, but he did what he could with what he had but, the people had just rejected Jesus and Jesus told his Apostles that they were next and prophecied that they would die along with him and history documents the rejection and mode of death for the Apostles. So, we actually learn, through Catholic History, that Ignatius understood his limits as a Bishop, he was over a congregation or a district and that was it. We've also learned the Apostolic authority for Constantine or those around him, or should we say lack of. Constantine wasn't a converted Christian. He claimed he saw Jesus and that helped him win his war victory, but what he left behind seems to indicate that Constantine used Christianity and it's rising popularity to win over loyal subjects. Pegans loved and wanted to part of the message of Christians as love and peace, that was the selling factor for them coming from a faith the exact opposite and Constantine saw this huge rise that could threaten his empire so, to gain favor, it became political, but Constantine never actually converted to Christianity, he was never even baptized. Constantine remained loyal to Apollo and built structures in his name to elevate Constantines status, his Pagan beliefs never left but Christianity was a mask worn over Pagan traditions to gain favor, Constantine died a Pagan. When he gathered his council of Nicea well after Jesus' crucifixion and the death of the Apostles, Bishops, BISHOPS, were called to the counsel. There were no Apostles present, no Seventy, but Bishops who preside over the Priests, but no Apostles, no prophets, no seers, and no revelators, and who even knows where these Bishops received their authority from. The Bible was NOT compiled or even written by the Aspostles that followed Jesus around. Unlike the Egyptians that wanted everything documented, the Jews weren't exactly the same way. I think Christians envision Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and James sitting at Jesus' feet scribing while he's talking, but that wasn't it. Paul's Epistles to the various Churches (by which I mean congregations and not sects or denominations) are the only legit written documentation from an Apostle, so long as they're translated correctly, everything else, including the Old Testament was written by scholars. YES, the Bible was written by mortal foulable men. You know the telephone game where kids line up and pass a message along? That's how the Bible was written. It was written from memory of the Saints that listened to the Apostles teach. People were gathered to tell the stories to the best of their knowledge and scholars wrote it down and then compiled it. We have no clue what order they should be in, they're not chronological in order, the Book of Revelation just to happened to fall at the end, so, when we say the Bible is God's word, that's a stretch. God's word is perfect and pure, nobody will and can dispute that, but mortal man is flawed, and everyday Joe off the streets took from what little memory some might have had and wrote second or third-hand accounts and wrote those down. NO, the Apostles didn't write the Bible, they taught sermons that were documented into the Bible and are a small portion of what they taught. Other documentation is yet to be found, I'm sure as archaeological digs are always finding something new, and, these documents were translated by mortal men that may or may not have know the language well, who knows save them? So, the Church once Constantine wanted to dip his hands into that cookie jar was already on really rocky ground. It's not God's fault, it's mortal man's foulability. Finally, the other point to be made, as far as I know anyway, the Great Apostacy was coined and taught first by Martin Luther, the German monk that nailed his thesis to the door and led and pushed for Bibles to be printed and distributed to the masses for themselves to read. So, my understanding is the Great Apostacy is actually a Lutheran term, or started out as such and Martin Luther identified and taught that. Joseph Smith learned that way later, but as far as I know, Martin Luther, and Protestant Christian , taught that first

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

I'll be honest. I don't think the Pentecostals ever had very solid points. Follow their last point: In order to remain objective> (not make it in our opinion) >To properly execute the word of God >We have the Holy Spirit >The Holy Spirit is the author of the word of God >After that "he warns us" and says listen this is what is going to happen >In order for us to avoid subjectivity we are given the holy spirit >The Holy Spirit is the mind of God >There are people that will twist the word of God. (the LDS Church) The whole point he's making is a subjective point.

[@marcw5700]

I appreciate the civil dialogue between two somewhat opposing philosophies of Christianity. This is always the way it should be so thank you for showing it can be done. I wish the Midnight Mormon guys would have clearly articulated why the ongoing movement of Christianity from the time of Christ forward isn't enough to prove an apostasy didn't occur. Although an apostasy was discussed and that many scriptures state it happened, nothing validating why it was the restoration was necessary was really addressed. The scripture in Matthew 16:18 refers to the rock of revelation, the rock of priesthood and its accompanying ordinances and the rock of Christ. Mainstream Christians take this scripture to mean the Christian Church as an organization. This is why they are confused. The Christian Church has not left the earth since it originated with Christ so they don't see what was lost. The restoration included a return of the priesthood and saving ordinances and prophetic revelation. These items were lost during that 1700 year period of time. Nice job overall guys but don't miss the opportunity to share what we believe in its fulness!

[@cabarete2003]

The Matthew 16 reference for members of the Church of Jesus Christ refers to Revelation as the rock...not Peter.

[@Hamann9631]

I think The Great Apostacy was worst when it started. It was worse when there were people rejecting living apostles.

[@rhamsesmartinez5007]

After being a devout LDS my entire life, I realized that the true church of Jesus Christ had always been on earth- it was never lost. Last year I was baptized into the Holy Catholic Church. I would love to see a conversation like this with Catholics. I just don't see a Great Apostasy being taught in scripture. In fact, I believe the bible refutes that idea- which is why I became Catholic.

[@ProdigalSonMatt]

Come to the South if you don’t believe in a great apostasy. There’s literally church sign battles between churches. One church having John 3:16, the other having Acts 2:38, the other having James 2:24.

[@rhamsesmartinez5007]

@@ProdigalSonMatt People have argued about doctrine and other differences from day one. Read 1 Corinthians 1:11-12 and the letter to the Galatians. How does that prove the Great Apostasy as understood by Latter-Day Saints? It simply doesn't. It just shows that people disagree with each other and with the church.

[@ProdigalSonMatt]

@@rhamsesmartinez5007 it’s about authority and believing all of scripture. Without authority, we see that anyone that gets an idea can create a church. God had to restore priesthood authority back to the Earth. Jesus clearly set up ONE church in the New Testament.

[@rhamsesmartinez5007]

@matthewx2590 I still don't see how people creating new churches proves that authority was lost and needed to be restored. The LDS church was established in 1830 and many new churches have been created since then- including multiple denominations that believe in the Book of Mormon and in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith and call themselves Latter-Day Saints. Does that mean priesthood authority has been lost again and needs to be restored once more?

[@a.ihistory5879]

@@ProdigalSonMatt We had ecumenical councils to address heresies so that the true teachings didn't go away.

[@jessicaloveridge2759]

I remember just being surprised when I studied history that people can deny the great apostasy.

[@bradleyserage4861]

Brad, as a fellow Brad who loves the scriptures I gotta say I love your insights man, you are learned and humble and it shows, keep preachin brotha!

[@anichols2760]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I would suggest part of what is meant as the "great apostacy" has to do with what happened after Christ and the apostles were killed where the actual priesthood of Christ and authority were gone. At some point there was no actual authority/priesthood left on the earth. People who liked the preachings of Christ and considered themselves advocates or Christian may have had good intentions. But, any priesthood or authority of Christ/God was taken from the earth and a man-made assumed-authority/priesthood came into being with the formation of the Catholic church and on through protestant reformation. We don't mean any disrespect to Catholics or protestants as many of our members (including myself) came out of the construct of Catholicism and protestant reformations with our forbears having been members of those faiths. So, we are saying that any man-made priesthood authority came about through seminaries and studies and subsequent certificates that had nothing to do with God/Christ/ or angels presenting authority to man. Another part of what may be meant by "great" in the great apostacy is the length of time that the apostacy remained. We are talking about an apostacy that lasted sometime after AD 100 up until 1830 which sums to a period of over 1700 years without God having an established church on the earth and thus without actual revelation from God to man via prophets. We believe that at times God inspired men during the apostacy but without authority and revelation man sought the will of man in things pertaining to God. Compare mans will and without authority to God choosing servants who would diligently under that authority God seek the revelations of God and lead the church under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Part of priesthood authority means the bestowal of the gift of the HolyGhost whose presence can be felt daily and as often as one repents and remains in tune and harmony with God. Compare that to occasional moments of feeling Gods presence and witness of the warm loving hands of his Spirit upon us. So, this is my weak interpretation. But hopefully adds some insight into our understanding of the great apostacy. I think if I spent alot of time thinking through this better my thoughts would be more precise and less error prone rather than remarking off the cuff.

[@CarlosRomero-pl9tk]

the Rock that Christ meant was not Peter, it was the Rock of REVELATION. The church is lead by revelation and that revelation will not fail, and it never fell, because the Holy Ghost inspired many reformist to point out the corruption in the Christian world, and I would argue that just like the great apostasy did not happen all at once, so was the restoration not brought about all at once.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

You missed a very important part of that exchange between Jesus and Peter. After Jesus acknowledges that Peter knows who He is only by way of the testimony of His Father in Heaven, and he gives Peter, (not the rock he was standing on or by) the keys to the kingdom! The full context : (Matthew 16:13-20) 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

[@CarlosRomero-pl9tk]

@@catherinemcdavid1533 yes thank you for completing the whole thing I should have been more detailed but you are totally correct. This whole Idea that Peter is the rock that Christ was talking about is completely misunderstood, it would have been nice to see this principal explained better in this podcast, because the way I see is that those who understand the need of this line of priesthood succession use that as a cop out to not accepting the claim of the restoration. Such reasoning stands on sandy grounds since the catholic church will not accept any other church having priesthood keys but them, therefore, denominations such as the one represented in this podcast really have no claim to that line of authority.

[@catherinemcdavid1533]

@@CarlosRomero-pl9tk I do believe the Catholic Church still holds the keys to the priesthood BUT the Catholic Church does not say that baptisms outside of the Catholic Church (for most Christian denominations, depending on the name by which they baptize and if they teach the Trinity, ONE GOD in 3 divine persons) are invalid, nor does the Catholic Church say there is no salvation for those outside of the Catholic Church. I also believe The Book of Mormon is sacred scripture but not totally convinced where it came to be and when moving the standard works of the LDS church, there are multiple things that contradict the teachings of the apostles and early Christian Church (those taught by the apostle John and by Paul), through present day, contradict the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself in the Bible, and even contradict The Book of Mormon.

[@CarlosRomero-pl9tk]

@@catherinemcdavid1533 Well, I guess the only thing I can say is to read the BOM and not only ask God but also think about its message and origins. If it's true that the BOM is the word of God then Joseph Smith did see angels and most importantly, saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. In recent months, I’ve been thinking about my faith a lot and I’ve come to the conclusion that the main thing one can learn about Joseph Smith's claim to have seen the Father and the Son, is the fact that Jesus Christ is truly the Christ, the Messiah, the great Jehova. That there is a God and that he condescended from His throne to save all of humanity. As I take a look at religion in general, I see no one else with the same amount of evidence as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to back up this claim. While the rest of the Christian world uses the Bible to convince others of the existence of God and the need for a savior, in my opinion, that’s not enough. In a world where we are more aware of the natural world around us and with a population that is way more educated than ever in the history of the world, many middle age views of who God is don't stand on solid ground. The fact that there are so many churches is evidence of that, we are not of one faith, and there is no one baptism as the new testament suggests. But God knew that and that's why we have the BOM as it’s written in 2nephi 29:7-11, actually the whole chapter but I like these verses of that chapter the best. 7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? 8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. 9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever. 10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. 11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. As far as the LDS church being in contradiction with the NT, is interesting that you said what you said because I find it to be the opposite. No one else follows the church written about in the NT like this one does, from the need for Authority like it’s written in the book of Hebrews chapter 5. To the need to use Priesthood power to mister the gift of the Holy Ghost like it’s mentioned in Acts 8:14-17, to the performing vicarious work for the dead as evidence of this is mentioned in 1corinthians 15:29, when paul tells these corinthians that the resurrection is real because some did not believe in it, and because we believe in the resurrection, we need to do the work for those who did not have a chance to partake of the word in the flesh, so that in the last day these can stand before God and not be justified in there wrongdoings, and have the opportunity to make a covenant with Christ. For Christ said it, in John 3:5. Baptism is essential. The BOM teaches this in 2nephi 31:5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! Thus making this Church the only church that teaches the Doctrine of Christ in its purest form. Because some say that Baptism is not required and use some NT verses to justify their position, completely ignoring the fact that Christ Himself was baptized and so we too must follow Him. But regardless, I hope whatever route you take is the best for you. Thank you for the kind exchange.

[@unreadyeverett]

Cheers to all! If only we could talk about things or topics in this way, in all things. Totally worth the watch! ❤

[@TheHoustonscotty]

Oh heck yeah. This is fire 🔥

[@jaspermagee]

"The gospel was given once and for all." So ... back with Abraham and that was it? (Gal. 3:8,16)

[@stever808]

I guess everyone who lived before the printing press was invented, and everyone who disagrees with these guys is doomed.

[@spencerphillips983]

you guys are so good! I can't believe you only have 33K subscribers

[@chaosking2661]

Y'all should invite Robert Boylan on for this discussion

[@rachael780]

I'm surprised you guys didn't bring up the priesthood as part of the great apostasy and why there was a need for restoration. I liked how the conversation was respectful!

[@shireecox122]

Us members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints are supposedly so bad. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, His SON, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. We believe in Eternal family relationships. We believe in helping and loving God and our neighbors. We believe in preaching the Word of God to all the world. Wow! We are just bad.

[@drewhanna9057]

One thing I wish had come up, "we believe that the people who got together in the councils were the corrupt ones." I always tell people who are open, the lord said that their lips draw near but their hearts are far from him. The lord does not love eternal divorce and he does not love sending the dead to hell that never heard of him. Anyone who teaches this has a heart far from His.

[@wrxstigoabs]

Excellent discussion- I learned something new and that is that Pentecostals accept the essentially Catholic line of a continuous church connection to Peter. The guests swept under the carpet the huge doctrinal differences between them and Catholics and the centuries of apostate conduct across multiple churches. Evangelicals also believe in the Trinity and the Ward Radio guy’s could’ve been on stronger ground if they’d focused on the many New Testament scriptures proving the Christ is the literal son of God. The guests essentially endorsed the various creeds that emerged from the Catholic councils in the early centuries of the apostasy and it would’ve been interesting to watch them, get tied up into pretzels over the completely confusing mush mash that is the doctrine of theTrinity

[@sagetajr]

The Great Apostasy, The Great Tribulation and The Great White Throne … it all makes sense!

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

Hapax has no finality attached to the meaning as he is trying to read into the text. He keeps saying he is exegeting but it’s utter eisegesis trying to say hapax means “once AND FOR ALL”. Also the gates of hell scripture doesn’t mean the church won’t fall. Context is key. Gates keep people in, gates don’t attack. The gates of hell won’t win in KEEPING THE DEAD IN HADES (that’s the actual Greek word used. Hades =\= hell as we think orbit today. Hades was the place where the dead were awaiting their final destination. That verse means Jesus will ultimately win at giving everyone eternal life and the gates won’t be able to keep anyone in! Also, those guys ignored every single scripture that prophesies of an apostasy. Those scriptures are super clear. They had no chance in hell with Brads comments either. Zero answers.

[@dalecash2236]

If the Bible is supposed to contain all of God's word, where is the record of Christ's teachings to his Apostles during the 40 days after his resurrection? On the other hand, if God's word in the bible is complete without that teaching, why did Christ need to spend that time with them?

[@anichols2760]

Just after 44:00 the question was asked why God waited until the 1800's to restore the church. Why such a long apostasy? Good question. I thought that the scripture 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 would be brought up which describes an apostasy that will occur prior to the 2nd coming or return of Jesus Christ. In verse 3 it explains that the 2nd coming will not coming save there is first a falling away, an apostasy wherein the devil will be revealed. And if you look at the time frame between just after 100Ad until 1800's there was a period of time referred to as the dark ages. The devil was revealed as he seemed to rule or have influence in the hearts of men at extreme levels. We don't know why God would have allowed that much time to pass before restoring his church but there seems to be adequate examples during those dark times that seem to reflect the devils power and arm being revealed in earths history. And the sins and murders that were carried out in the name of God were horrific. Also, note the number of inventions in the period between 400 ad and 1800's and 1900's. It appears that it was as if the sun was coming up in the 1700's pouring out inventions and light on mankind that seemed to shine brighter in the 1800's and on until the 1900's till today as we see some of the greatest inventions ever known in science, technology, medicine, etc.

[@davidshaw901]

When Jesus says he would build his church upon "this rock" I think he was he referring to revelation to prophets like Peter. The context fits better considering the conversation leading into it. It's another version of Amos 3:7 when the Lord says he will do nothing except through revelation to his servants the prophets. Jesus is not saying there will never be apostasy, he's saying this is how my church will be run. Also, considering that John the revelator never tasted death, in a way the Priesthood was not fully taken from the earth but actually remained, though with very limited access. And it is interesting that it was John with Peter and James who "restored" the Priesthood to Joseph Smith.

[@Acroft96]

38:10 “Boom shaka laka, Christ lives.” No truer words have been uttered😂

[@binmyrtmind]

Boys, the Pentecostal gentleman accused the church of twisting Gods own authority himself not that authority he gives men to act in his behalf. They are assuming LDS argue Gods authority was taken. There’s misconception here.

[@newin548]

And… historical records of early Popes killing each other in order to be Pope.. and ..what about the introduction of the “ Trinity” etc etc etc ..

[@spencerphillips983]

kwaku brownie analogy is actually really good

[@shireecox122]

Please let Kwaku speak!!!!!!!

[@S7ZEE]

I always have a hard time being patient when people continually go back to Greek or Latin words to try to find absolute meaning in that one root word or translation.

[@JarvieDigital]

Please let kwaku and brad speak. Please?!! I know you love love talking and recapping but your co-hosts are really really great speakers and they are smart and funny. I'm glad they ended up fighting for s bit of time.

[@WARDRADIO]

It’s a jungle I’m the black box of Midnight Mormons. You must fight for every word. If you don’t get a word in it is because you are weak.

[@Namelessforever_]

@@WARDRADIO😂

[@letusreasontogether1168]

D&C 121:34-42 When those that hold the priesthood use it to cover their sins and exercise unrighteous dominion, they lose the authority. There is no question that the leadership of the Catholic church was involved in serious iniquities. The atrocities of the church in the dark ages are compelling evidence that they had lost the authority and guidance of God. Any break-off church that comes after that can have no authority because there is none to transfer. The only remedy is restoration by Divine intervention - Angels and Prophets. This is the pattern throughout the Bible.

[@coolchapstickbro7820]

Cardon and Gang, how about a video on the Australian “fraud” and Jana reise’s video, along with FairLDS response. Hot takes like that will increase your viewership, since that’s what everyone is talking about.

[@youryury]

Always great watching gracious convos like this

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

6:22 How are the effect of Martin Luther’s work less of a restoration of the gospel than the effects of, say, Brigham Young? How would the experience of Martin Luther being “heavily inspired” by god differ from the way Russell M. Nelson receives a revelation? 10:40 If Joseph restored these lost truths, why does the modern LDS church seem so different from the church Joseph left behind? 12:26 Is there a simpler way for these truths to be communicated than by dissecting an ancient language? 19:12 The “Catholic” traditions are also where we get the names for the gospel authors. Why should you believe those traditions and the others? 21:25 Isn’t there some glosolalia in LDS church history? 34:14 How do you know that the LDS church has not been “recalled?”

[@cptn-4085]

Martin Luther never claimed he was ordained an apostle and given priesthood keys. Russel M Nelson has the priesthood keys as Peter did, Martin Luther did not. The Church and Restoration are ongoing, changes can be made when authorized by the Lord and His servants who hold the appropriate priesthood keys. Language can help, but receiving testimony from the Holy Ghost is the most effective in my opinion. Some traditions matter, others don't. The names are just for convenience but they have no salvific significance. Yes - speaking in tongues has occurred in the LDS church. I wasn't a fan of Kwaku's "recall" analogy, ,but we know the gates of hell shall not prevail so there will be at least 1 church that does have Christ's authority and priesthood keys and the LDS church is that church on the Earth today. Hope this helps, Mike!

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@cptn-4085 Does someone have to claim to be ordained an apostle in order for you to believe they are speaking for god?

[@cptn-4085]

@@mikefoxtrot1314 Negative, they must receive the priesthood and the keys of the priesthood by the laying on of hands as Christ did with His Apostles in order to be an Apostle in the Biblical sense. However, men of all ages were inspired by Heaven to do great works. Martin Luther was surely and inspired and chosen man to do a great work in the Reformation, but he wasn't the one called of God to bring about the "restoration of all things" as spoken of in Acts 3:19-21 "...when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord [The First Vision]; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." That mission was reserved for Joseph Smith.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@cptn-4085 What caused you to believe that these verses in Acts are actually about Joseph Smith?

[@cptn-4085]

@@mikefoxtrot1314 It's clear to me that in these verses Peter is referring to a future time "times of refreshing" or the restoration of the gospel (new wine in new wineskins) and all its parts into one whole before the Second Coming of Christ. These times of refreshing come from the "presence of the Lord" and Christ came with the Father in Joseph's "First Vision" and taught him. Christ also appeared to Joseph and others in later times and was sent from the Father. Verse 21 - "whom heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things" - meaning Christ would not be ministering again after the great apostasy until the "times of restitution of all things" which was inaugurated by the First Vision and set in motion the Restoration. Joseph Smith is the only one who fulfills this scripture in a time after Christ since he was called and ordained an Apostle of Christ by the laying on of hands in the latter days as Christ did with His apostles in His ministry. Luther, Calvin, etc. had none of these things occur and therefore could not qualify to fulfill these prophecies of Peter.

[@magitekarms60]

On a different topic, do you guys plan on talking about Bro. Corbitt's talk on activism towards the church (ATC as he labels it)? Seems to fit pretty well into some of the discussions you guys have had as of late on other topics. Love the show!

[@dscott11]

I’ve been attending a Pentecostal church for eight months. I was hoping these guys could provide some clarity to the answers I get at church. No such luck. There are so many leaps of faith in this. In my church they claim authority comes from the studying of the scriptures. So hard to swallow. Luckily they have a great fellowship. Great people.

[@mahonri69]

you can't make a racehorse out of a donkey. There can't come a true religion out a false religion. Therefore the restoration was needed .