349. The Birth of the United States (Part 3)

“O ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose, not only the tyranny, but the tyrant, stand forth!” The U.S. Congress votes for independence on the 2nd of July 1776, and George Washington reads the Declaration of Independence to his troops a few days later, after which they pull down the statue of George III in New York, melting it down to make bullets. The king is now the target of the revolutionaries’ grievances, it is no longer the British Parliament. In Episode 3 of our series on the American Revolution, Tom, Dominic and Professor Adam Smith explore the importance and impact of the Declaration of Independence, the role of King George III, and the effect of France’s involvement.
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[@esburnside]

Washington Crossing the Delaware original was indeed destroyed in Bremen in 1942. However, Leutze painted two more versions, one of which is now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City.

[@amynatzke1050]

I am grateful to hear Brits examine my country's beginnings. Can we trust ourselves to tell our own story? These days?

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

Anyone who researches it properly and keeps an open mind can. Regardless of who you are, or where you're from, the facts remain the same.

[@michaelandrewsalomonenewje4107]

Also remember the writings of Jefferson’s friend Filippo Mazzei.

[@angusp5178]

Talking of wars of independence - any plans for a series on Algeria and France? Just reading Jonathan Meades' piece 'Time Doesn't Heal' on its tangled mess of betrayal, misinformation, and moral inversions and thinking D and T would great work untangling it all

[@jimb9063]

Gentleman Johnny. "...I think it was because he was so polite to his own troops." "Polite?" There's the problem right there, sending Sergeant Wilson and the LDF.

[@itzgamerz3102]

Which episode number are part 1 and 2, can’t find it when I search it

[@benjamingood2311]

They really think Thomas Paine is a terrible person?

[@matthewhansen2126]

I’m trying to figure out why. Who is this Adam Smith?

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

They didn't say Thomas Paine was a 'terrible person'. He was what he was. An reckless, arrogant, rabble rouser with a naive and simplistic political theory, which in some respects caused considerable damage. As with Marx however, that was as much to do with the people who swallowed it as to Paine himself. He didn't do much harm in America, as the Founding Fathers were, on the whole, more level headed, but Paine's ideas and activities caused considerable damage in France, to such an extent that that when he fled France after contributing to its' destruction, he was denied the right to vote in America. Which isn't surprising, because he'd spent years hurling abuse at George Washington, and most of the Founding Fathers.

[@matthewhansen2126]

@@ben.mitchell.theater rubbish

[@Bultras12-CA]

All I'll say is that the history US and Canadian kids learn at school is no less propaganda than let's say in Russia. Great episode as always!

[@Connorloom]

This comment really could not be further from the truth. I don’t know where u went to school but in the us education especially history is completely dominated controlled and taught by people who hate America literal Marxist in most cases. We are taught only of what sins Americans have committed and obsess over how we can change and be less like our American predecessors. It’s all criticism and how really America isn’t a real country it’s a great evil that should be torn down. The only patriotic streaks in America are not in school but just traditions that have lived on in people despite what their taught. The Propaganda is not pro USA but exactly the opposite. Russia would be happy to see what we teach it’s even worse anti American propaganda than they could ever do

[@MLMack]

250 years later and the brits still salty about 1776.

[@carlossaraiva8213]

And the americans still salty that nobody else treats 1776 as a myth like the americans do.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

1776? That was just the beginning.. aside from 1812 they've been on the losing side of the US essentially every since. Lost the war, lost the colonies, lost the continent, lost their empire. Nothing but decline. Has to hurt falling from where they were to essentially being a vassal of their little brother. Much for the coping and seething.

[@eddiespiked]

Lol do you not have a sense of humor?

[@LC-rj6ok]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 You do release that after the War for Independence, there was the Second British Empire, which became far bigger and far greater, partly because it no longer had the shackles of the 13 colonies, partly because trade between the New America and Britain flourished and both countries profited massively and partly because the British Empire learnt it's mistakes and let future colonies to self govern. The demise of the British Empire didn't happen until the end of WW2. Two world wars bankrupted the Empire. India was promised independence for it's contribution to WW2 and the newly emerging US Super Power made sure the British gave up their Empire for help in WW2. So your comment "Nothing but decline" is rubbish, the Napoleonic Wars were yet to begin. The British Empire peaked in the Victorian Era between 1837-1901 long after 1775. And lets not forget, all Empires die out.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

@@LC-rj6ok fair point. It hadn't peaked. I'm obviously being more than a bit facetious. Plus being the age I am and my personal interests the last 100-150 years or so of history have alot of influence.

[@d.c.8828]

I see you all chose to butcher the French language here to emphasize how you *really* feel!

[@toastyanon8902]

Hey now! Jefferson may have been a slaveholder, but he sculpted so much of our nation’s values in liberty that we’d never call him a straight up “bad guy.”

[@jimbopumbapigsticks]

Hypocrite and rapist are probably more accurate words.

[@Eagles1212]

Correct He banned the Atlantic slave trade as president and put a time bomb on it in the declaration. If the founders attempted to ban slavery at the beginning multiple states wouldn’t have joined and there would have never been a new country

[@Eagles1212]

@@jimbopumbapigsticks The Jefferson-Hemings Myth A Few Simple Facts: The DNA sample used in the 1998 study was NOT from THOMAS Jefferson There were more than two dozen Jefferson men in Virginia at the time of Eston Hemings’ conception The scientific evidence alone concludes that the chances that it was Thomas Jefferson are around 4 percent Jefferson was at the advanced age of 64 and was in poor health at the time of Estons’ conception The most likely suspect was Jefferson’s younger brother Randolph who was known to cavort with the slaves There is ZERO evidence that Thomas Jefferson ever socialized with his slaves “The committee had reached their decision long before all of the information had been studied, and that sure enough, all of the evidence that would have exonerated Mr. Jefferson had been discarded.” - Dr. White McKenzie “Ken” Wallenborn, who authored the minority report of the Monticello Research Committee on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings

[@matthewhansen2126]

By holding slaves that worked the land of Virginia, Jefferson was doing what the British Empire wanted and promoted.

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

The British Empire never promoted slavery in Virginia. They were neutral and indifferent. In any case it wouldn't have mattered what values of 'liberty' Jefferson held. Without the more substantial fligures of Washington, John Adams. Madison etc the whole thing would have disintegrated and could have gone the way of the French Revolution.

[@CL-we8tn]

Please bear in mind, this is as told by the Brits who have no bias whatsoever... 😳

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

Every individual has bias.

[@ComedyJakob]

I must say, I detect a noticeable anti-American attitude in this discussion. I love the podcast, but I dare say you spent nearly as much time denouncing the moral failings of the founding fathers as you did the members of the Beerhall Putsch.

[@CL-we8tn]

😂😂😂

[@carlossaraiva8213]

Spoken like a limp-wristed american trumpanzee.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

It's limey cope, what do you expect?

[@stephensmith1343]

I don't think so, they are always knowledgeable and light hearted.

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

It's not 'anti American'. It just offers a different and more factual perspective from the glib rose tinted ones we usually hear. A sizeable proportion of the colonists were British loyalists, but we hardly ever hear a word about that. Neither side had a monopoly of wisdom and moral virtue. Both were pursuing their own self interest and neither side was remotely evil. The proceedings were conducted with none of the murderous slaughter we saw in both the English and American Civil Wars.

[@metacomet101]

the way they talk of the American founders you would swear they forgot of the British empire and her countless victims

[@carlossaraiva8213]

A other american salty that others dont treat the founding fathers as if they were gods on earth. Sad.

[@metacomet101]

@@carlossaraiva8213 Tiocfaidh ár lá you Tory boot licker

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Haven't you heard? Americans invented slavery! The Brits also outlawed slavery first! Pay no mind to the fact that it wasn't until 50 years after the American Revolution! Also don't consider that states that had already banned slavery or had at least growing abolitionist movements also had big support for independence!

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

Neither the Americans nor the British 'invented slavery'. Slavery has existed all over the planet for as long as long as mankind has existed and in big way since agrarian society took firm root. The American Indians kept slaves, and they were amongst the last to finally give up owning black slaves. There are still more slaves in the world now than there've ever been. The apparatus for the transatlantic slave trade was founded by the Muslims nearly 1000 years before any were sold to the colonies. The Muslims bought slaves in Africa and brought them into the Arab World. The prophet Mohammed was a slave trader. The Americans bought them from Africa because they were on offer. It would have been impossible to travel there and capture slaves themselves.

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

By the standards of empires, the British Empire had fewer 'victims' and more beneficiaries than any other empires in history before or since. Most of the victims in America were Indians on the one hand and black people on the other, but they were victims of the colonists who became Americans. Most of the Indians and the blacks were on the side of the British Empire during the Revolution.