Historian Tom Holland on Oppenheimer, Napoleon and why the world loves British history

Tom Holland, the popular historian who co-hosts the world-famous The Rest Is History podcast, sits down with The Telegraph’s Steven Edginton to discuss his new book on Rome, woke history and why British history is so popular among international audiences. Holland explains why Trump reminds him of Nero, and says attempts to teach moral lessons through history are a “fool's errand”. He continues, saying he doesn’t accept there are those on “the right side of history” or that the arc of history bends towards justice. The production of films such as Napoleon and Oppenheimer are a sign that audiences are still fascinated by history, says Holland. You can listen to the full interview on your podcast app by searching for “Off Script”.
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[@andyknuckles2903]

Tom Holland is a gold mine. His podcast with Dominic Sandbrook is often a highlight in my week.

[@GrumpaGladstone1809]

I looked it up, will give it a whirl, thanks!!! :)

[@robertgebruers9519]

It is THE best podcast.

[@vlndfee6481]

Learning constant new context and information. Better than any historic lessons on school.

[@samgoodway5244]

The podcast GOATs.

[@user-lp7wo7og4x]

I'll give his podcast a go pal

[@fredlewis6527]

Bloody hell that presenter had an agenda

[@alanfox8928]

it is a shame for the sake of the interview that the interviewer was so poor, but Tom Holland fantastic to listen to as always.

[@trytwicelikemice3190]

His fixation on trying to bring it back to culture war issues in the middle was very weird...

[@johnhealy6494]

Absolutely

[@jamiearan]

Stephen was trying to get Tom to bite on right wing talking points, but I was impressed by Tom's ability to steer from them

[@billythedog-309]

@@trytwicelikemice3190 The fact that this is sponsored by the Daily Telegraph is purely coincidental.

[@mithrandirthegrey7644]

I've always had a casual interest in history but Tom Holland for sure has made me much more interested in classical history than I ever used to be.

[@abcav297]

Never expected Spider-Man 4 to be a single room arthouse movie with only two characters and mostly dialogue. Bravo Marvel!

[@ceceliategdirb7371]

My thoughts exactly

[@darrenkaminsky7618]

Tom Holland is, of course, terrific and fascinating. He has to find his way around some of the interviewer's clunkier and more short-sighted questions, but he seems to have no problem doing this with grace, agility, and brilliance. The overall lesson is that history doesn't serve a single perspective, and the events and battles of the moment fade quickly. A telling moment was when the interviewer asked Holland whether he'd be able to get his Islam documentary made in today's political atmosphere, obviously under the impression that he wouldn't, and Holland having to remind him--or inform him--of the atmosphere around the subject of Islam in the post 9/11 and Iraq war period, which the interviewer obviously either didn't know about or hadn't bothered to research.

[@matthewstokes1608]

No… I think this young interviewer is singly the most outstanding interviewer of intellectual quality to have arisen on the western/global stage in years.

[@palatine7013]

@@matthewstokes1608 i disagree, he's fishing for controversial debate where one doesn't exist. Another useless attempt at stirring the societal pot!

[@StumpyVandal]

The interviewer was constantly trying to draw Tom into the debate on wokism and political correctness stifling all forms of expression. The right wing newspapers in the US and UK care about little else right now. It’s ridiculous given the actual problems facing society.

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@StumpyVandal Tom Holland was asked provocative (not leading) questions by a perfectly reasoned and intellectual young man doing a far better job than those we typically see.

[@darrenkaminsky7618]

@@StumpyVandal Yes, watching again that's what the interviewer is trying to do. He's subtler than some, but it's still a bit scary -- not everything can or should connect to "wokeism" or the political right's bizarre cultural obsessions.

[@SynapseDriven]

Holland is genius and a very generous person because that interviewer is just daft.

[@starcapture3040]

he is biased

[@Joe-og6br]

As it went along I could sense a growing distain towards the interviewer.

[@janecote]

May I just say, I am very impressed by how such a young man can sound so pompous already

[@localfox1000]

Nice to see the Telegraph give a platform to an elite sportsman

[@Metta33]

Very enjoyable to watch. Good stuff.

[@JeansiByxan]

I read Dominion when it came out and it blew me away. Anything Tom Holland writes now I’ll read. His ability to pivot from the present to the past is unparallelled.

[@andrewturner3580]

Great Interview !

[@scottbuchanan9426]

One figure Tom Holland didn't mention when discussing Britain's global cultural-historical influence is probably the biggest one of all: William Shakespeare.

[@themsmloveswar3985]

Not sure. I reckon Shelley, Dickens, had a larger impact. And possibly Orwel, and Huxley.

[@scottbuchanan9426]

@@Mickyway Don't think so.

[@ssotkow]

Didn't know what I expecting when I clicked this video... thought it was another Oppenheimer review, but totally engrossed in this riveting conversation that suddenly popped up from nowhere like a dream.

[@paulheydarian1281]

Don't get caught up in the latest HollyWeed Hype...Be an original thinker.

[@jonhelmer8591]

Great, I've found Tom's podcast on the iplayer! 46 hours of fun.

[@agracier8656]

Absolutely riveting interview. So insightful with his modest speaking style. A pleasure to have listened to.

[@skp8748]

So disappointing he's a raging islamophobe.

[@profiler4772]

Impressive teacher! His own enthusiasm is so fluently transferred to and captured by the listener.

[@bengeorge894]

So in a parallel universe Spiderman is a middle aged British historian

[@jamieguthrie1760]

Nice to drop in a few buzzwords of the moment using Oppenheimer in the title, but this interview was much more about the Roman Empire and how it relates and has influenced the modern West of today! Fascinating interview btw!

[@arthurw8054]

Yeah, the title might be a bit misleading, but if it's Tom Holland it's going to be superb, period.

[@nathanngumi8467]

Great discussion!

[@ahothabeth]

It is a joy to listen to Tom Holland; Steven Edginton not so much.

[@samurai_wack]

I had no interest in history until I discovered The Rest is History. I read Persian Fire a couple of months ago and found it utterly fascinating!

[@EerieV23]

The rest of his books are just as riveting. I highly recommend them.

[@samurai_wack]

Rubicon is next on my list!@@EerieV23

[@samuelpepys5350]

Tom Holland is always great value but the title of this video needs fixing, it's a 47-minute interview and they spend all of 3 minutes discussing Oppenheimer, Napoleon and British history!

[@supertuscans9512]

He’s brilliant to listen to. He’s actually made me review the way I see the Roman Empire and the influence of the Christian ethos on society ( for better and worse) even when it’s not overt, and in many ways has transgressed from being a religion to a subconscious philosophy. Fascinating!

[@dulls8475]

@@supertuscans9512 With Christianity mocked we are already on the way down.

[@jamesbailey5008]

Hooked on the rest is history, love it

[@ozzell]

I'm fascinated by this idea of christendom being inherently destabilizing and a potential cause for a lot of social progress and post-christian ideologies.

[@dulls8475]

It gave us the stability for social progress and post-christian ideologies.

[@mcpanorama]

Life and Leisure in Ancient Rome by Balsdon, which came out in the 1960s, is still worth reading.

[@patrickquinlan3056]

Great interview, although I had to wait 40 minutes for a mention of Oppenheimer, Napoleon or British history. Never mind, I love listening to Tom.

[@TurnCoatTechie]

Outstanding views from Tom Holland that I also share ❤

[@flambr]

his oddyssey is so readable like he's genuinely one of the best classics writers of our time

[@paullewis2413]

Love Tom Holland’s book “Persian Fire”. There’s so much to digest in this comprehensive survey of a pivotal time in European/Asian history.

[@JonniePolyester]

Just heard Free Thinking episode on Julian The Apostate with Tom …very good.

[@thomasmitchell7645]

British-vetted scientists played a key role in the development of the Soviet atom bomb.

[@bj6515]

But it was an American who provided Russia with the blueprints then got prison for it.

[@paulthomas-hh2kv]

Work on atomic bomb was non secret in Uk although Radar was for some reason. There was a Russian scientist working on the development in UK. Very interesting interview with Mark Oliphant with names and dates

[@benmclaren]

Tom is brilliant but this interviewer asking the most loaded questions my god!

[@adventussaxonum448]

It's like watching the BBC or Sky, but from the other direction.😅

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@adventussaxonum448 which is why it is superb

[@adventussaxonum448]

Makes a nice change.😅

[@Clipgatherer]

37:45 Britain may not be "Greece to America's Rome"; rather, as someone observed, Britain is Alfred the butler to America's Batman. They provide good advice and experience.

[@edblarney9456]

And Batman is an imaginary figure.

[@deanedge5988]

Best interview post Pax - most revealing; least formulaic. Very cunning in its oh so polite bowling.

[@paulthomas-hh2kv]

Very interesting interview with Mark Oliphant about his career working with Ernest Rutherford

[@ton1]

Didn't know Tom Holland was a historian in his free time in between Spiderman movies.

[@imchrisme5514]

I wish I were so bright, interesting, intellectual & articulate.

[@user-pt7ip2yz9d]

Oh of course Britain is our Greece here in the Colonies. It wasn't until Spinal Tap that we finally woke up to the fact than not everyone with a British accent is a genius.

[@Ozgipsy]

Wow. That was a sharp observation.

[@leisti]

This interviewer is digging quite hard to get an anti-wokeness quote.

[@corinaijac4381]

Had the best summer ever. Unbelieveble tears, heat, but...summer. Found my lost family, a bit shuttered, still alive, still love them. I forgive, if it does matter to him, to Graham from Fund Daniel for what is done. Today he is still alive. Wish him the best he can get by his own. Corina Miriam Georgeta IJAC autumn, 2023

[@UncriticalRaceTheory]

some historians argue that this lack of empire that could control western europe is what made western europe so powerful, as they were constantly in competition with itself.

[@jonathanphillips5514]

Explains why we are all knackered

[@anthoneyhart]

I know this is the Torygraph, but the loaded questions and trying to foist the interviewers opinions on the interviewee was grating.

[@otuamab]

What is the Best book on Trajan?

[@RANDALLBRIGGS]

The interviewer seems to be constantly grinding an axe.

[@DaboooogA]

Peter Parker on fire as always

[@AndyJarman]

How extraordinary to assert the British have had minimal influence on the USA.

[@judithjohnson5055]

He was speaking of the present rather than the past

[@dougiemarks9852]

That’s my thinking about the Roman Empire done for the day

[@gmk2222]

Anyone got a link to his brothers podcast, I found a James holland, is that him? Thanks

[@gerarddearie-zd2gb]

Steven's lack of self-awareness when he asks about contemporary historians insisting that we must see history through culture was, is something to behold.

[@Joseph-ax999]

I'm amazed at the stability of the empire in spite of the many assassinations.

[@DiamondMind]

Love Tom

[@Historian212]

Clickbait alert: there’s almost nothing in this video about the new films about Oppenheimer and Napoleon.

[@kitl8081]

Tom Holland is great! I don’t know what this interviewer is doing though, he’s a mess!

[@hatomi_j4920]

And he was a great Spiderman as well

[@corinaijac4381]

saw many at the local*

[@corinaijac4381]

Often I wondered, how they managed to do it. Bucarest, an area of a theseplaces person with sheeps, Bucur (joy), like David, like others-Odysseus f.ex., is on the same hourlongitude like Cairo. The Delta of the Nile was displaced, but just imagine... Let's say, they agreed to meet for a tea, on see, not at him, not at her. Being in time, have good weather and pleasant ships with lovely friends around, how, when he left it was 4 p.m. , when she left it was the same 4 p.m., to be at 5 o clock was it at the middle?, is it possible?, there is no such thing allways wondered, they had the funny world and managed to drink together a tea. Stunning! All my love! Corina Miriam Georgeta IJAC after 2000 years...

[@corinaijac4381]

Good morning. Bună dimineața. Corina Ijac

[@markcarey67]

It might just be the camera angle but Tom looks like a giant next to Steven

[@boonedockjourneyman7979]

Genius

[@CirclingDuck]

Loved him in Spiderman

[@corinaijac4381]

Tomorrow is wednesday, my favorite day. So it's Freitag, the day I was born. Corina

[@jayguerero47]

Steven Edginton will be a British journalism icon, if not a legend. Stay humble, upright, and excellent, young man.

[@DanforthFrance]

Interviewer is a drip.

[@williambranch4283]

Pop American history was the Western, and died in 1970. We got a WWII resurgence same as GB.

[@DavosTheDegen]

Tom Holland looks a bit different from the last spiderman movie

[@ssotkow]

Accumulating cobwebs, not shooting spidey webs

[@fhujf]

This is a multiverse version of Tom Holland.

[@martinaaron609]

Hilarious - like watching Slavoj Žižek be interviewed by Harry Enfield's Tim Nice-But-Dim. Comforting and encouraging that in 2023 this is the calibre of young person that The Telegraph can manage to find. But some fascinating insight from Tom - especially r.e. the concept of "pax".

[@AndyJarman]

As an occupant of a former British colony, I think Mr Holland greatly underestimates the degree to which Britain is a very central point of reference when defining the meaning of the various liberal femocracies it has given birth to.

[@Mrtomcree]

I know it’s a typo but femocracy what a lovely word

[@jonahtwhale1779]

Femunism - illustrates the communitarian nature of female nature but also the authoritarian aspect of the same.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

@@Mrtomcree- Is it a typo though? Perfectly describes what was happening in Sweden for several decades. Indeed sums up the dysfunctional world we live in today in most of the West.

[@corinaijac4381]

Just five minutes before, left a comment to an interview to some ambassad in bucarest from Ishrael. It was, the comment, erased because of the content. It wasn't offending, they didn't love the content. Wow! How could this happen? Corina Ijac 6 oct 2023/7 oct.

[@Simzoid]

Of course a Telegraph journalist starts the question with a religious decline, as opposed to sticking to the traditionally modern term void of religious connotations. Classic. Only here for Tom, who carefully avoids falling down the Douglas Murray route - as probably the Telegraph would enjoy.

[@vlndfee6481]

Shalom means peace in Hebrew Is very differnent from Rome pax. Shalom start with in the heart by Jesus spirit. Pax is military ruling order.

[@corinaijac4381]

,,I saw your face in crowded place..." , ,,how deep is" the...water. Corina

[@corinaijac4381]

Good morning, Dear Amon, mi-e foarte greu. Ceea ce am știut, am declarat. Poate ne mai întâlnim, cândva, într-un alt timp. Am știut că va fi greu dar am mers drumul până la capăt. ,,Călinescu" și-a falsificat actul de naștere, în ,,Enigma Otiliei" nimeni nu o mai întâlnește pe Otilia iar enigma ei, într-o casă plină de mătuși, e feminitatea. Nu știu să-mi iau rămas bun. Corina

[@williambranch4283]

Non-Romans hated the Romans. Non-Christians hated the Christians. Those other people need to get over it!

[@trytwicelikemice3190]

Shame the interviewer has no idea how to read a vibe and had this weird insistance on pushing culture wars issues... still, excellent work by Tom Holland, respectfully navigating that to say something interesting despite the questions!

[@bronson4574]

I predict hundreds of jokes with his name

[@Gorbyrev]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[@VaughanMcCue]

@@Gorbyrev With great power comes not-so-great electricity bills.

[@VilemMalecek]

❤❤❤

[@VilemMalecek]

🎉😮❤😢

[@Holoether]

Lovely! “Christendom was the peak theme….200 years ago”

[@boguslawagumuchian2427]

How is America a cultural superpower ? What is their culture ?

[@tyronebiggums8660]

People around the world are influenced by American movies, television, music, innovations

[@DavidSaundersPosts]

American culture is a huge stew, where cooks from all over the world throw their bits into the pot. What comes out is not always great, but is creative and it sells.

[@StumpyVandal]

The interviewer was constantly trying to draw Tom into the debate on wokism and whether political correctness is stifling all forms of expression. The right wing newspapers in the US and UK care about little else right now. It’s ridiculous given the actual problems facing society.

[@Lanxe]

He definitely had an angle. Quite tiresome but I suppose that's might be what his employer wants. Always pushing for some dramatic statement from the interviewee.

[@adventussaxonum448]

​@@Lanxe Yes, it's like watching mainstream media, only from the opposite direction.

[@HomeFromFarAway]

​@@adventussaxonum448there are two "mainstream medias" with intetnionally opposing views. conservatism has never not been mainstream and the left has always owned the press

[@edblarney9456]

Those were perfectly fair questions. It's a legitimate contemporary issue. Holland's answers were reasonable and enlightening.

[@supertuscans9512]

Too short!

[@mcpanorama]

Absolutely right about Christianity.

[@corinaijac4381]

We don't live in the past, even if the seaside was left to the nature.

[@humongousfungus8052]

Tom Holland is masterful as always. The guy from the Telegraph is far too tense and uptight in comparison and comes across like an overzealous schoolboy. He needs to relax his sphincter a bit before situations like this. 😉

[@kevwhufc8640]

History,,, i used to think everything in history books was true , Until i graduated and started working as a field archaeologist. Boudicca killed many thousands in London and in verulamium. I know that didn't happen, verulamium was half the size and mostly a building site when boudicca passed through. The people were warned and they fled deep into woodland not far from the city, we have evidence of people cooking, remains of post hole's where people made crude short time camps . The city and surrounding areas have been extensively recorded by GPR, and no mass graves or anything else you'd expect to find . The layer of burning in the centre of the Roman city, is no more than a couple of inches thick and only in a small area of the city. History books claim julius Caesar invaded Britain and destroyed the catuvellauni tribe. ..Even though not a single piece of archeological evidence has been found, In fact all we have are a few words written by Caesar. His objectives were to destroy the catuvellauni and their settlement, To return lands to the kings which the catuvellauni invaded. Take surviving warriors back to Rome to be sold into slavery. We know none of that happened, the catuvellauni continued to expand into neighbouring territory, and were soon to become the most powerful tribe in middle Britain That couldn't have happened if Caesar had killed the warriors. No deposed kings had lands returned, no slaves were taken , Caesar did not defeat or destroy the catuvellauni settlement... There's a lot of misinformation about my city and surrounding areas in history books. My city cannot be the only one with written history that can't be substantiated . I don't trust anything that doesn't have archaeological evidence to support what's written.

[@tincoffin]

I don’t suppose Boudicca had a chariot with swords coming out of the wheels, did she ?

[@kevwhufc8640]

@@tincoffin no evidence blades were used on chariots, I'd guess not , probably do more damage to the foot warriors than the enemy ;)

[@tincoffin]

@@kevwhufc8640 Perhaps l dreamt it 🙁

[@tomsoyer5639]

Everything from over 2000 years ago is educated guesswork. Dont look at history books as the truth. Most history books are also very dated, as in decades old.

[@McNeish]

Love Tom Holland and been reading his books for the last 20 years but wish he’d comb his hair.

[@artofmusic303]

Mr. Holland came very close to saying the concept of justice cannot exist outside the framework of Christianity. Surely he doesn''t believe that.

[@markwrede8878]

Arriving throughout the world with place value math, extortion contracts, and gunpowder, the British made everyone affected by their history.

[@brendancorrigan]

Whatever about the end of the West's golden age, it's fair to say peak *freedom* was reached in the late 1990s/early 2000s, kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnXao3WIjcqWrNU.

[@philipmartin5757]

Love the ironic 'simple Jack' hairstyle...

[@blancaijuarez5423]

Hi

[@davekeith576]

Disruptive loud advertising interference.?

[@corinaijac4381]

*

[@galaxyn3214]

Mike Pence physically resembles Emperor Claudius.

[@danielschaeffer1294]

Whenever has has to defend Trump - which is all the time - he starts stammering worse than Biden.

[@galaxyn3214]

@@danielschaeffer1294 Pence does what does out of a reluctant sense of patrician honor.

[@robertburke2246]

His documentary on Islam was interesting.

[@dirtbag1793]

The interviewer keeps trying to bait Tom Holland into joining with him in a condemnation of 'Woke' culture and Holland keeps nimbly escaping the net. Good for him. This conservative obsession with the buzzword 'woke', which nobody, conservative or liberal, has any idea what it actually means, is getting tiresome. It is paying dividends of diminishing returns and I wish conservatives would move on to something of real substance instead of the usual fripperies.

[@matthewstokes1608]

Holland is evading purposefully the questions leading to an ugliness he knows to be true… He has no spine - and is a coward.

[@chrisdickens4268]

Tom hollad is great, the chatbot reading the bullet points is a bit odd...

[@MichelGmusic]

It's not in decline, it's in expansion. The whole world wants to live like the west. It has become a global culture, always in transformation, with, yes, central heating and plumbing!!

[@davidhawley1132]

Not China, in fact the reverse: the elites are tempted by China's authoritarianism. Secularism also seems in decline as various cultures reclaim a more traditional identity including a religious component.

[@georgewaters6424]

The Telegraph should be embarrassed that "Steven Edginton " represents them in any form, print, online or video! Seriously get a grip!