35 Years and Counting: What will replace the Tangaras?

[@Dobuan75]

I remember when the Tangaras came out and I loved them. I thought they were so futuristic at the time. Now however I’m thinking we can save one or two for a TV series - have a little flashing red light on the front, and make it a supercomputer taking train - starring David Hasselhoff. Each episode, it saves a serious congestion issue on the network.

[@aquamonkee]

Unsure anything on Sydney Trains is fast or reliable enough for such a premise

[@AphonenewNew]

@@aquamonkee That would indeed be "futuristic"! What would the Tangara be called "TIK"- Train Intelligence Kontrol.

[@Respectable_Username]

Flippy seats are _way_ more important than in-seat chargers, especially for journeys

[@cadelaide]

the Red rattler.. man that was a blast from the past as a kid.. didnt the doors stay open.. loved them

[@edmondsim285]

Analyzing the intricate interplay of signals, meticulously designed timetables, and the fascinating network topology of Tangara Sydney trains is truly a delight for a transportation systems enthusiast like myself. The optimized throughput and efficiency make it a compelling case study in the realm of urban transit engineering.

[@JoeyLovesTrains]

11:59 I feel like that’s just putting a bandage on a deep cut, it’s not gonna kill you, but it’s not the correct solution. You need stitches. I believe adding addition substations along the line will not only solve both problems, but future proof the system.

[@brettyallop6018]

Great video. I'd suggest based on the history with the D sets, there will be Tangara's on the network way past the end of their 'service life' given no announcement on a replacement.

[@jzmmm]

When I first saw them in the early 90s, i thought they were pretty cool. But these days, they're probably the worst to sit in as a passenger. They've always had a window fog issue and they smell a bit damp

[@jameslaidler2152]

And no screen inside to say which stop is coming etc. At night, it's nigh impossible to tell where the heck you're going. At least if unfamiliar with that particular route. Oof.

[@Roadrunnerz45]

agree. not to mention the announcements are virtually impossible to hear.

[@coasterblocks3420]

I remember visiting Sydney from Brisbane in the 1990s and thinking the Tangaras were the coolest trains ever - clean simple lines, elegant and efficient. I still think they’re the best looking in Sydney’s fleet. Subsequent models external aesthetics have become increasingly fussy - do those extra bevels and curved panels improve the functionality or just make it more complicated for maintenance and cleaning? I think governments like new designs simply to put their stamp on it, when simple iterations of a base design over decades would save a lot of extra money and effort. The design of the Tangaras reminded me of my Power Mac G4 at the time.

[@tonybaldwin1115]

Agreed they look different Sydney has a habbit of buying trains that kind of all look the same esp right now with the A, B and D set models and in the past with the S and K Sets as well.

[@danieleyre8913]

No apology offered: They are fugly.

[@vintageradio3404]

All NSW double deck trains since the M-set have been built to the same basic design with only the treatment at each end changing. As the H-sets were built by Goninan instead of EDI, they use different door openers but most other aspects of the trains are the same as the M, A and B sets. Even the different coloured D-sets have the same basic shape, even though they are built by Hyundai Rotem. I don't call these designs fussy. Instead they are quite elegant, yet streamlined. Having said that, the T-sets will be with us for a while yet. 30 years is not old in terms of passenger rolling stock. The only reason the K-sets will be retired is because they have to do something with the H-sets once the D-sets finally enter service. The H's will replace the K's.

[@danieleyre8913]

@@vintageradio3404 Passenger rolling stock generally have a lifespan of ~45 years, with a major refurbishment every 15 years. The Tangara’s were produced over a considerable time period. The earliest batches are 35 years old, and only have about a decade’s worth of reliable service left, while the later batches will have about 20 years left. And of course; the Tangara’s refurbishment programmes have been as staggered as their production runs. However; with with the conversion of the T3 line to metro operation, and the very possible future conversion of the Inner west section of the T2 line; there may be a surplus of rolling stock for the Sydney network anyway.. But in any case; the NSW government should really look into planning for and designing the next suburban EMU class after the Warratah’s as early as possible.

[@AstoundingAmelia]

the reason for the curves is to reduce drag to an extent as well as help move water

[@thebaintrain7066]

I live on the t4 line and use the like for about 2 hours a day at least. It’s so frustrating to see every other line use, spacious, clean and new trains when we are stuck with these old tangaras. They are horribly air conditioned, have no displays, poor announcements loud doors and most of the time, no reversible seats. The windows are also impossible to see out of and the phone service is horrible. I really hope that the govern can just do something about it. Possibly use the newer trains that used to run on the Bankstown line before metro in the t4? I know the about ever supply but it just makes travelling into ten city everyday so much worse

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

The power reduction mode could be simpler than the battery option, for example, on the British Rail Class 444s and 450s the power reduction mode simply cuts the power the motors by around half to reduce the load on the substations. Power reduction mode on the 444s and 450s, it was reduce the load on the 750v third rail during upgrades to the substations when every other substation was out of commission.

[@BigBlueMan118]

There is a third option on the power supply issue: build replacement trains that can run on both 25kV AC and 1500V DC power supply, then once the repplacement fleet arrives convert the ESR to 25kV AC since all South Coast trains can run to Central

[@auzzierocks]

​@@BigBlueMan118 Good Idea, except ESR also can terminate at central. They would also have to run neutral lines and increase catenary tension I think too but easy tasks

[@BigBlueMan118]

@@auzzierocks true, ESR conversion could be done in stages, you could even do stages right: 1. Bondi Jct-Martin Place first and get that back open so that Eastern Suburbs residents can at least get to the City and change to Metro 2. then do the Martin Place-Central section, again Illawarra passengers can change to Metro at Sydenham or Central 3. then if you are game to keep going do the Central-Sydenham section, Illa passengers change at Sydenham for Metro, you could go all the way to Hurstville and just have all trains running via the other track pair during shutdown works. I think we should be converting the lines that run InterCity trains long-term to 25kV AC anyway imo, especially the blue mountains line.

[@sylviaelse5086]

A notorious thing about the Tangaras is that it was possible to disable the function of the dead man's protection, a fact that Cityrail knew for years, but did nothing about. And then we had the Waterfall accident, in which this fact may have played a part.

[@andrewyoung3299]

I'd love to see Alstom build the Series 2 Tangaras. With UGL fitting out the trains

[@BrettMonet]

One topic that I have not seen any one else post a video on is how the new underground Metro tunnels are designed to cope with floods. Presumably there are large pumps somewhere. Maybe some slope is built into the tracks to direct the water? We see with ancient subway systems (eg New York) that they are having a lot of trouble as heavy rainfall events become more frequent.

[@thetrainguy4]

At the bottom of a tunnel section there are pumps that push water back to places it can be extracted or drained.

[@electrosoundaust]

A four car Tangara set was brought to Melbourne and fitted with Comeng equipment. It did not go well, a. it failed all the time, b. most people thought they were horrible and didn't go upstairs/downstairs and stayed in the doorways leading to, c. loading/unloading times were much greater due to the two doors instead of three per side. It languished in yards and was eventually scrapped.

[@vintageradio3404]

It was never destined to be a success in Melbourne. Most of Melbourne's lines can't run double-deck trains so it is pointless having any there. Sydney's DMMTTMMD car arrangement won't work down there either as most of Melbourne's stations aren't long enough for eight car trains. The 2 vs 3 door argument is moot given that the doors on Sydney's trains are wider, giving people the room to board and alight at the same time, if only they'd pay attention to that instead of their phones.

[@afs5609]

Very interesting comments, as a former employee of state rail there could be some other idea's to be considered, although there is a current action of fitting to sector one ETCS in some form, I am aware there has been for the last twenty years a view of outsourcing sector 1 (T4) to a seperate operator (PRIVATISE) as now exist with the current Metro. The moving of all T sets to sector 1 had been discussed as far back as 2005, I suspect this planned move is a first step to this concept, as the existing maintenance centre at Mortdale has been recently upgraded, & has been used by a private rail contractor from time to time to maintain the Tangara fleet, as the T sets reach life expired they could be replaced with the Metro style single deck driverless train sets, the only problem to this idea it would require additional tracks to be laid between Hurstville & Mortdale or Sutherland if this concept involves the Cronulla line, leaving the the south coast line to operate with existing NIF'S over the Illawarra local line from Hurstville to Central I express this view as that was the earlier concept for the Metro to operate to Hurstville using the Illawarra local line before the decision to divert the Metro to Bankstown. The former Liberal Transport minister had suggested he wanted to see driverless trains in Sydney as far back as 2016 of course you can always build double deck driverless trains as well, but that would be contrary to current transport experts we have from oversea's who advised to use single deck driverless trains as they can load & discharge passengers more quickly with more doors & less passengers per car, as well the acceleration is improved with the smaller light weight carriage.

[@GazzOak69]

Think they should do a T set 2.0 or whatever with all the bell and whistles of a modern trains and maybe some trains have 2+2 seating which is generally used for the all stoppers to hurstville and crounulla, waterfall and whatnot have the 3+2. Would be desirable to upgrade the all stoppers to hurstville to metro but however that probs a better stop gap.

[@Jonsku124Transit]

Finally! Great video and definitely worth the wait!

[@1nown]

Trivia question answer: other than the OSCARs and K-sets, the converted G-sets were the only trainset able to run on the epping-chatswood rail link after its launch; something I have photo evidence of, despite claims that tangaras were unable to do so.

[@Ashinle]

This was very concise and detailed, great video

[@lachlanmcgowan5712]

BTW it's worth pointing out that UGL/Goninan in Newcastle no longer has the facilities to build a full train fleet. About half of its land has been sold to suburban developers and the facilities have been downgraded to maintenance only.

[@JohnBand78]

A new fleet will cost $2bn+, you can build some decent sheds for that money!

[@aidenteszke9000]

They're building locos there right now

[@bennyboost]

Great video. I too am I big fan of the 2+2 seating and wish that trial from 2013 where they did the 2+2 on some tangaras and longitudinal seating on others was retained. The 3 seater is a real pain especially in peak hour since it’s often a wasted space and makes getting in or disembarking very awkward on crowded trains.

[@keshavdogra5811]

Very informative. Great watch

[@paulmcgregor6411]

Another way to recognise a TTU Tangara is that the electrical head has been removed from above the coupler. The Tangara’s will be removed from sector 3 later this year and moved to sector 2. This will allow sector 3 to run just A and B sets, therefore increasing capacity.

[@danielayto4120]

Oscar's will be replacing the Tangara's on Sector 3.

[@paulmcgregor6411]

@@danielayto4120 not until the NIF’s enter service, which could be a year or two away.

[@Byefriendo]

7:14 Awwww. Now I can never get the rare T4 OSCar. Gonna be stuck with tangaras only for another decade ):

[@thebats5270]

Great video! It's very interesting that the previous plan would have likely been another tranche of the B set which makes sense and makes the fleet more uniform. It's also likely that the replacement of the Tangara will push out the Millenniums as the M sets have the worst fleet reliability. Either way, TfNSW has about 10 years to tender for a locally built train, set up that production line and start displacing the current trains. Take that into account when existing facilities here probably aren't up to the same standard (by this I mean geared up to set up a full production line) as when the M sets and Oscars were built (not sure just having a guess, but 15 or so years since the last big order doesn't bode well). It's not just the tendering, it's the designing, sourcing of parts, setting up of a supply chain and longer term maintenance of these trains (I'm not sure any company would let Sydney Trains continue to conduct maintenance on UGL/Downer/Alstom trains at Mortdale or Hornsby and these depots would like go to the successful builder as maintenance facilities). And none of that takes into account teething issues. But there are opportunities too! Because it will be a captured fleet there's opportunity to make it ETCS compatible from the get-go!

[@pacjman9360]

I remember they were in Melbourne classed 4d trains for a little while

[@KJP-dv2uj]

Wonderful channel and videos. Just one small point. Novocastrians have always pronounced Goninan as Guh-ninnan rather than Goh-Ninean. Keep up the good work.

[@BigBlueMan118]

There is a third option on the power supply issue: build replacement trains that can run on both 25kV AC and 1500V DC power supply, then once the repplacement fleet arrives convert the ESR to 25kV AC since all South Coast trains can run to Central.

[@thetrainguy4]

That’s an interesting idea. Would be expensive but certainly solve the issue.

[@jonathanj8303]

​@@thetrainguy4it's more or less what's been started in the UK with 750v 3rd rail sets. Since the late 90's, all new 3rd rail DC stock has had to either actually be ac/dc, or be convertible to run on ac - ie have pantograph wells, room for and capacity to carry transformers and rectifies etc - so that the network can eventually be converted to 25kV AC overhead, or a mix of that and 750v where clearances are too tight. Some of the early stuff - looking at you Alstom - was probably so badly built and designed it couldn't actually be converted, and quite a lot more probably never will be, but since the majority of the stock came from Siemens and Bombardier ranges that contained AC, DC and dual voltage versions that were pretty modular in design, conversion is relatively painless if not necessarily cheap.

[@WildDanHibiki]

I still see the rickety old tuna cans on the tracks. I think they need to replace those first, surely.

[@ukraineball953]

They are planned to be replaced by displaced OSCARs when the D sets enter service

[@meandwhoism]

I hope Stadler takes a peek next decade. These guys have entered the Japanese market which is in the railway word ofcourse very secluded. I feel like their innovative solutions and positive approach could work well in an consortium woth the Australian builders you mentioned. I feel like Alstom is a bad puck right now, seeing their international performance and incapabilities to recover and deliver after taking over bombardier. (See Alstom Coradia, Avelia Liberty, Citadis Spirit,TGV-m, SNCF backorders) Dont't even get me started on CAF and on how CRRC just moneygrubs as soon as the customers isn't chinese.

[@lzh4950]

I initially got Stadler confused with the German company that makes pencils

[@gregorya72]

I didn’t realise the T4 line was separated off so efficiently. I see now it merges from 4 lines down to 2 at Wolli creek and through to Bondi. Now that T3 Sydenham is shutting down, T8 has reduced Sydenham usage, and T4 will pick up St Peter’s and Erskineville - are there plans to use all 4 lines till Erskineville?.

[@BigBlueMan118]

They are swapping the tracks on which express trains and stopping trains run between Hurstville and Sydenham, I'll explain in detail below why but it gives you more capacity and is more resilient to disruptions. For a bunch of technical reasons, it was necessary to construct a new crossover at Hurstville to facilitate a track swap. Basically you get more overall capacity and improved operations for the whole corridor by swap the tracks on which express Illawarra trains run between Erskineville Junction and Hurstvile (currently the Eastern track pair) over to the other Western track pair where stopping trains run currently. At present all Illawarra trains run from the Eastern Suburbs Line onto the Eastern track pair after Redfern to Wolli Creek and this has been done for a long time because the four tracks South of Sydenham had to merge with the two tracks of the Bankstown line (originally they also had to merge with the two tracks from East Hills but all these trains will now run into the Airport tunnel). Express trains continue running on the Eastern track pair down to Hurstville whilst the all-stops trains run on the Western pair. This bottleneck has been looked at for a long time, there were already attempts made to widen the corridor from Sydenham to Erskineville Junction to 6 tracks so that Bankstown line trains didn't have to merge but these were abandoned. Now this merger is being removed because the Bankstown line will be moving out of the corridor and into the Metro tunnel to Waterloo and into the city. Because both the Bankstown and East Hills track mergers are now removed, swapping the express and stopping track pairs on the Illawarra line makes sense because it allows you to use all four tracks for the T4 which is the most capacity-constrained corridor in the country right now and patronage since the Pandemic is actually higher than the traditional busiest line in the country the T1. All T4 trains in future will run from the Eastern Suburbs Line onto the Eastern track pair stopping at all stations from Wolli Creek to Redfern, after Wolli Creek, express T4 trains to Sutherland swap over to the Western track pair to run express to Hurstville. Meanwhile InterCity trains from Wollongong/South Coast will run express on the Western track pair all the way from Hurstville to Redfern terminate at Central-Sydney Terminal; this is desirable because it allows more trains stopping in the busiest section of T4, whilst Wollongong trains run express without getting slowed down by any stopping trains and can use the Illawarra Dive (a small tunnel just West of Redfern that takes trains from the Illawarra line from the South side of the main rail corridor onto the North side) to access Sydney Terminal platforms without affecting other lines. This allows more trains overall, faster operations with less disruption, better interface with freight trains and smoother operations with Canberra, Melbourne, Griffith and potentially more Southern Highlands regional trains.

[@thetrainguy4]

I’ll keep this as simple as possible: 1) local trains will swap to using the eastern pair from Wolli Creek to Hurstville. Express trains vice versa. 2) SCO trains will stay on the western pair and skip Wolli creek. They will use a new crossover at Illawarra Junction to reach Sydney Terminal. 3) T4 trains will stop at St Peter’s and Erskineville.

[@gregorya72]

@@BigBlueMan118 Thanks, huge useful answer. Currently the T8 line has the peak-hour Campbelltown trains all going via Sydenham rather than the airport line - so you're saying that's being changed to all take the Airport line? (They'll have to change the colours on our rail maps! haha) I hope they're not making every T4 service stop at Erskineville and St Peters. They keep adding a minute here and there to the T4 line. Though it looks like they're pretty heavily serviced now, so probably require it.

[@gregorya72]

@@thetrainguy4 good info. So... why not merge the tracks across later, like after St Peters? I assume it doesn't speed up the timetable enough to warrant it.

[@BigBlueMan118]

@@gregorya72 yes every T4 service will stop everywhere between Wolli Creek and Bondi Junction; they merge at Wolli Creek rather than later because there is no platform at Wolli Creek on the western track pair (new express pair) so anyone from South of Hurstville wishing to transfer to the airport line would have to do a double transfer onto a Hurstville service then airport. And theoretically it allows more capacity overall as well as more reliable trip times. It also allows more South Coast services to run and to be run faster, these won't be slowed down by anything now so you might find there are more express trains to Central that you can transfer to at Sutherland and Hurstville to save time. You can also transfer to Metro at Sydenham which will give you a faster and more reliable journey time through the city.

[@aaikaa]

good video! minor thing but the emphasis in "waratah" is usually on the "war" and not the "tah"

[@thetrainguy4]

A friend of mine pesters me about that lol

[@phunk8607]

Ohhhh so that’s what that place in Broadmeadow in Newie were making.

[@dmr8914]

Tangara's blew Australian trains away in one blow. No other city had what we had with Tangara's. They were sleek and ultra modern. The fact that they are still running shows just how good they are. Yep, bad seating by todays standards and the window aircon isnt good but you go elsewhere and see what they have. Stop whinging when you dont know how good you have it! Tr Amtrak and Canada's Viarail & Vancouver trains- some are nice- but our old Tangara is still better!

[@lundsweden]

If its economically feasable, why not just upgrade them? They replace avionics in aircraft, not to mention engines, sometimes even wings. Does the train body have a lifespan? Is the body prone to fatigue cracking, or do welds weaken over time? Or is the basic body able to be upgraded economically ad infinitum?

[@pacomarveeny9640]

Allegedly, the cost and sophistication of upgrading the tangaras with cameras, internal PIDs and internal PA systems proved to be equal to building or buying replacement trains. It was also unexpected that all of the tangaras were wired and put together slightly different per batch, making installing and upgrading existing hardware very costly with time and money.

[@danieleyre8913]

Rolling stock and aircraft are not the same thing. Rolling stock are subjected to stresses and strains well beyond anything any aircraft can tolerate. Rolling stock generally have a lifespan of ~45 years of regular usage. Even as that approaches; bogie suspensions start performing poorly. It would be most economically feasible to just replace them with brand new aircraft.

[@lundsweden]

@@danieleyre8913 My understanding is aircraft are made of aircraft grade alloys, and increasingly composites. I remember from science class most aluminium alloys can get fatigue cracking from many, small movements such as cabin pressurisation/depressurisation, movement/stesses in flight etc. I'm not 100% sure of what materials trains are made from, I'm thinking steel and stainless steel. Steel doesn't suffer from fatigue cracking, unless the stresses are very high. In other words not from vibration etc. Not sure how stainless steel performs in this way, but considering much of the exterior of modern trains is made from large panels of stainless, I'm thinking it's probably pretty fatigue resistant. Of course some of these are likely stressed, some would be unstressed. No doubt the suspension is absolutely ratted out after 40+ years.

[@danieleyre8913]

@@lundsweden Well then feel free to research how much rolling stock in the world has to be retired due to the discovery of microscopic stress fractures to get a conception of the magnitudes of the forces and resulting stresses & strains that they are subjected to.

[@lundsweden]

@@danieleyre8913 It's interesting what you're saying, yes it must be some pretty massive forces to do that.

[@LachlanKelly]

As someone who lives on the T4 line, I’m very happy with the Tangara’s. They’re usually clean with comfortable seating, very quiet compared to the notoriously squeaky breaks on the Oscar & Millennium, and there’s simply no Sydney train with a better air conditioning system. Also love being able to sit on the top deck and catch a few rays from those curved windows on those cold winter mornings. They still look pretty great as well in my opinion. Happy for them to stick around for another decade or so 😁

[@mickvonbornemann3824]

One thing is all the old Diesel-electric locos should be replaced with Diesel-Electric-Electric hybrids. Basically just Diesel-electric locos with a pantograph on it so they have the option to also run off the overhead electric when the need arises or even put power back into the overhead system when required, while where there are no overhead powerlines they operate as normal diesel electrics. They use them in Spain where their versatility are loved.

[@panacea_.]

cool video! nice to know what's happening in australia

[@chiefpred9982]

Also spiders

[@panacea_.]

@@chiefpred9982 haha

[@staryoshi06]

"Well padded seats, phone chargers, and comfortable armrests are much more difficult with reversible seats." Gotta disagree with this one. The Intercity V sets have no problem with comfortable armrests and padded seats while being reversible. Phone chargers aren't necessary on suburban trains which don't have long trip times. And if we made more intercity tangaras, I'm sure they can figure it out. Anyway, I do agree about continuation of the aesthetic. I honestly kinda hope they are exactly the same in outwards appearance and even the door sounds.

[@Bpb96]

Power supply issues within the ESR is simply not true, as Oscars run in there everyday drawing much more power than a tangara. The reason Waratahs don’t run in there is because they are too wide. There are power supply issues on the Cronulla branch line, however this could very easily be overcome, similar issues occurred on the North Shore line when millenniums and Waratahs were introduced and was fixed by adding more substations.

[@thetrainguy4]

Waratahs have on very rare occasion run through the ESR in quiet periods so not sure about that. The Oscars can run there because they are infrequent. If all the T4 trains used Waratahs it would be a different story.

[@ianwright7903]

Thanks, great video.

[@Nofatchickz44]

God I miss painting them old tangara’s seeing them roll through with the crews name big and bold 😮‍💨

[@Techno-Universal]

The Tangara trains were also the world’s most technologically advanced and futuristic metro trains at the time they entered service.

[@pm110978]

How times have changed.

[@Techno-Universal]

@@pm110978 Yup they were over a decade ahead of their time while the concept models for them were also so futuristic to the point that the designs of more recent trains in Sydney like the most recent ones with orange front end designs would be based on them! Pretty much you may see quite a few elements from the initial Tangara concept models here have been reused on more recent trains in Sydney! :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZebYX53eLx_r5osi=LmXe17jdBf-ljq9r

[@adinterxm]

Great & very informative video, however, the audio needs boosting

[@Ollie_skate500]

Remember when Melbourne had one? It failed…

[@AphonenewNew]

That was a wide "big boy" version! 😅

[@scottt8258]

We have trains that are even older still on the network. lol

[@vancedburner6547]

I suspect the NSW gov will wait until after the metro opens to decide on a new train - if the metro does well then the gov't will order single deck rollingstock.

[@t-ps7pw]

Wow great video!!

[@thetrainguy4]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@jameswassink3218]

Why do newer trains need to use more power than the Tangaras? Is it just better acceleration?

[@thetrainguy4]

Modern trains are more electrical

[@GMCShazamataz]

There is still C Sets running to campbelltown. They were all suppose to be off the tracks 10 years ago.

[@thetrainguy4]

There are no C sets running anywhere. They were retired years ago.

[@sunilj2608]

@@GMCShazamataz you're thinking of S Sets. They were withdrawn 5 years ago. K Sets remain - they have good air conditioning, only the non-AC sets were withdrawn.

[@aquamonkee]

The immediate problems in this replacement program - while the Minns government proposes building locally it was the previous ALP government that opened the door to offshoring with the Waratah trains built in China against a proposal from UGL for locally built trains (it's worth noting the project required a large public bailout at time of the incoming Liberal government), finally tenders for the D set trains saw no locally built trains as UGL had partnered with south Korean manufacturing, which suddenly was an issue for the ALP (and media). Second it was the previous ALP government that introduced multiple new sets without understanding the power requirement and then came up with zero plans for upgrading. Personally I don't believe the Minns government will be around for long which is fortunate as Labor governments have no idea about power supply at all, how many windmills would it take to run a train line??

[@thetrainguy4]

How many wind turbines will it take? Better ask Sydney Trains as they have been 100% renewable energy for a few years now.

[@oberstleutnant787]

Tangaras were built in South Korea, Waratahs were built in China and the metro subway trains were built in India but of French design.

[@ClamTram96]

Arm rests on short, suburban trips is a pretty useless addition but even still the technology to swivel a chair backwards or forwards can allow arm rests and charging ports (especially considering that sydney electric trains have had changeable chairs since before their introduction with the steam suburban carriages 120 years ago) its a bit daft to remove it

[@electro_sykes]

We need a set to replace the K, Tangara and M sets. The Ks are planned to be replaced with upgraded Oscars, but there will still be shortages and some K sets may need to stay in service due to growing population. Therefore we will need to order a lot of new trains to replace both the Ks, Tangaras and also add more fleet. In addition instead of refurbishing the M sets we could retire them early if we order enough new trains.

[@joshporter5422]

Bankstown Line conversion to Metro will relieve a fair amount of DD rolling-stock that'll be distributed to other lines.

[@electro_sykes]

@@joshporter5422 It won't surprise me if one day the T4 will be converted to Metro minus the bit to Waterfall. This would require seperation from the south coast line tho

[@vintageradio3404]

I would rather see any new trains built in Newcastle, which is not only more appropriate for NSW than having them built in VIC but much better to have double deck trains built by people who know how to do it. Why give VIC all our money. NSW trains should be built in NSW. We once entrusted VIC with building the Adtranz Variotrams for Sydney's first light rail line and the first tram didn't make it - it fell off the truck on its way north.

[@Peter-ev2kr]

💯💯

[@electro_sykes]

I know their a bit of a clusterfuck but build more D sets. In Brisbane, we had issues with the NGR trains. But now we need more trains, so we're building a second batch of them. Unlike the first batch of NGR, the second batch is being built locally with some enhancements. This was only announced start of last year and already they will be delivered in 2027. Because we have based it of a design we already have. Sydney should follow suit and build a second batch of D sets to replace Tangaras and K sets. But for the second batch take the same design and alter it to fix certain design flaws so the issues existing the current D sets won't affect this new batch. and also some enhancements to keep it up to date with the lastest technology.

[@thetrainguy4]

I see where you’re coming from but no. The D sets are built for a different role than a Tangara replacement will be.

[@electro_sykes]

@@thetrainguy4 ok, well then maybe we build a completely new class and replace all K, Tangara and M sets with it

[@converserook7655]

@@electro_sykes the oscars are supposed to replace the K and maybe M sets, however i have heard rummors that both classes of trains will be kept and services will be increased

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

In the wake of the Paris agreement the A and B sets didn"t meet energy efficiency standards .

[@LetterboxFrog]

Rather than batteries, which do burn nicely if they compromised, why not opt for 25kv power progressively across the network, and make all new trains dual voltage?

[@reddust8649]

They are barely half way through their service life using the Leeds Forge works yardstick per the 1926 rolling stock they replaced. They still seem more than good to go so why the fuss?

[@pacomarveeny9640]

Where do you think OSCARs will be placed once they’re in suburban service? Do you think they’ll be on Sector 3 mixed with Waratahs? I think it would be better if they were to retain Tangaras to the entire network, and run OSCARs on Sector 1, as Sector 1 cannot run Waratah services, and OSCARs would fill the gap as they provide some better customer service as the OSCAR is evidently more accessible to the disabled, has automatic PA systems, internal PIDs and is overall a comfortable suburban train. I cannot imagine OSCARs on Sector 2 as it already has a big variety of set types; millenniums, k sets (soon to retire), a sets, b sets, and tangaras. Also, I had read that Tangaras now run across all Sectors to ensure driver knowledge. So I assume they may remain on all sectors.

[@thetrainguy4]

As far as I can tell Oscars will move to S3 as drivers are already trained there, and Tangaras to S1.

[@jodij2366]

The way things are going in Sydney, I'd be willing to bet that another metro conversion or two will replace the Tangaras!

[@vintageradio3404]

No chance. Two reasons why:- 1. Labor doesn't build things and they have spent the last nine months cancelling things. 2. New metro lines will not be conversions but greenfield projects (under a future Coalition government). It's in the overarching Metro masterplan.

[@Adventurepil0t]

I doubt you’ll see a return of the dome style windows. A bit of a liability on a hot , sunny day if the overhead power turns off

[@sunilj2608]

Glass is expensive, curved glass even moreso. That's probably the reason why you won't see them returned.

[@lokesh303101]

Yes!

[@geoffreyhampson3993]

They could have a combination of fixed and reversible sets. Maybe downstairs reversible and upstairs fixed. Not every seat needs a power point/charging socket.

[@danieleyre8913]

Most journeys on them will be under 30 minutes.

[@dezli5040]

Fire video

[@nigel6446]

Would really love to see these locomotives and a Sydney route in TSW4

[@TrainsForNSWVlogs]

The Waratah would have to get the batteries since old trains use the T4.

[@tamworthtrainnut285]

Waratah A sets have ran on the T4 line, I believe from Wolli Creek down to as far as Hurstville

[@thetrainguy4]

But not on the ESR.

[@gregorya72]

Is that city circle to Hurstville then? They used to do those occasionally (rarely).

[@JohnBand78]

Alstom are a plausible contender to bid for the replacement, but I don't think there's any chance they'll build them in Dandenong - that breaks Minns's promise to build them in NSW, without any of the cost savings of building them in in China, India or Korea!

[@joshporter5422]

He's already sent RiverCat ferry replacements to be built in Tasmania, no NSW shipyard were bothered to bid. No local manufacturer (more like assembler) is going to set up industry for 100 or so 8-car trainsets with no guarantee of orders being placed after the initial. You'd be hiring hundreds, only to sack them a few years later after the order is complete.

[@converserook7655]

with the signaling thing, would they not still have to keep the coloured signals in because of freight trains?

[@thetrainguy4]

In places where freight trains will run yes, but that's not actually that much of the network.

[@converserook7655]

@@thetrainguy4 most of the T4, also they have put those electronic signaling things in on the Cronulla branch but they still have the lights and they still function, i thought they would have gotten rid of them

[@HailLinus]

Ohhhh is that what Not ATP cab means... I've seen those signs soo many times...

[@jasonwei_au]

I would very much prefer to see T4 fully converted to become a Metro line, it would improve reliability significantly, and most importantly immune to union strike

[@thetrainguy4]

T4 is already very reliable owing to separation. Not all of it could be converted anyway, only the local pair through to Hurstville, which then demands a new terminus for Cronulla and Waterfall trains. The T4 is also getting first dibs of the new signalling system which on sections which have it will make signal failures etc a thing of the past, and increase capacity.

[@milk_chemistry]

The latest trains were made in a different country because the local companies didn't have the equipment to make modern trains in mass quantities Personally I think they should make them in a different country since it would be a lot more cheaper

[@havoc3742]

I'd rather have reversable seats than any sort of charging capability. chargers are a luxury, and definitely a "nice to have" but reversable seats are a must in this day and age. as for the design itself, why not just go back to the drawing board, take the Tangara Design, strip it down to the frames and build back up from there? we know the running gear works with 35 years of proof, keep the sloped design but can change the internal and external layout and systems for more modern ones. Now I'm not saying we use Existing Tangara frames, but design wise it should be possible. and we already know the Tangara's fit into most of the network as is.

[@daniellaugesen8355]

While living in Sydney 5 years ago I was always unhappy when the Tangara turned up. I can understand they were amazing when they were launched but give me a Waratah or V set. 🎉

[@Blank00]

Hopefully the replacement will still have Japanese propulsion systems

[@tsguy-h3q]

Why is there any reason a less power hungry train cannot be built for T4?

[@thetrainguy4]

Modern standards and equipment requires more power. When the Waratahs were introduced some lines needed upgrading, but as they were above ground there was room for more substations.

[@Reaper1770]

Its still very possible and a fair few have been upgraded but its still really common for trains to trip the station on the cronulla branch. I think its more so of the view of its unless its necessary it can be put off of for more useful things on the network such as new points or yard upgrades

[@sydneyrailspotting]

Cool! 😃

[@geoffworner5794]

The Waratahs are more comfortable than the Tangara fleet. Whereas the Tangara's Air con is far superior to any of the newer sets that came after them. Considering how hot Sydney gets, it just makes sense to build new carriages with powerful Air conditioning. I wouldn't be suprised at all, if it took another 20 years for any upgrades to be done. Just look at the XPT fleet, they should have been upgraded years ago

[@cameronwilson8561]

The design has really held up given these trains are nearly 40 years old. I definitely won’t miss the squeaky doors, foggy windows or bouncy ride. Given NSW labor’s track record on delivering projects, I’m skeptical this would be ever delivered on time. 🤷

[@mickvonbornemann3824]

Red Rattlers were good for 60 to 70 years (going by the plaques under their doors, rarely did I see any with construction dates that weren’t in the late 20’s), so with good maintenance the Tangaras should last just as long. Remember it never makes sense to make trains overseas when one takes into the tax revenues from those involved in local design, development & construction. No govt tender process should exist that doesn’t take into account of the tax receipts the govt gets back from the potential local workforce. Bugger APAC, afterall I doubt any Asian countries keep to the rules, so why should we.

[@goatgamer001]

Either get Stadler or build australian trains with low cost

[@lachlanmcgowan5712]

The logical answer is to just build more Tangaras tbh

[@ethans-dk4bk]

The Tangaras is moving to sector 2 to replaced k sets.

[@thetrainguy4]

uh yeah no don't think so

[@1canaris]

Don’t know, but the naming rights should go to Redfield.

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

Carriage numbers in four car sets 84 T , then 20 G style sets . Incorrect information in this video .

[@thetrainguy4]

What? The ex-G sets are targeted T101 to T120. Where’s the falsity there?

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

@@thetrainguy4 416 cars altogether .

[@NullaNulla]

Long live the V set!!

[@AphonenewNew]

I think they should consider single deck trains again for the entire network and make services more frequent. The whole double decker thing was a mistake IMO.

[@AbduStudio]

These are the worst trains in our fleet. The non-reversible seats are the least of my concern. I finds these to be the bumpiest ride and they have the loudest and most drawn-out horrendous beep and when the doors open and close - which quickly becomes annoying on a 1hr suburban trip with "limited" stops.

[@DMack6464]

I find the suspension to be smoother than the waratah, the beeping is no worse either, both are horrific

[@davidcarey9135]

Would be good to see the trains built in NSW rather than somewhere like Spain or China. Pity that successive governments have allowed the domestic train building industry to wither over the past couple of decades.

[@utareangara5529]

Why on earth they had DOUBLE GLAZZED FOR

[@thetrainguy4]

Safety mainly, a crack on the outside doesn’t shower passengers with glass.

[@utareangara5529]

@@thetrainguy4 they we’re the ONLY train set with it. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️

[@jackpubbo]

G set seats are so much better

[@tinascousin]

Goninan - it’s IN as in “in” not INE as in “nine”. Lazy Australian pronunciation: G’ nin ‘n.

[@aidenteszke9000]

Go nin in

[@adinterxm]

Came here to say the same thing. Taitset also pronounced it incorrectly haha. As a Novocastrian it upset me 😂😂

[@stews4066]

Gon inn Anne or gon inn in’s

[@sydneytrainsnerd5]

Edgecliff already has a station 😂

[@thetrainguy4]

SUBstation- electrical supply stuff.

[@SamuelJiang1]

We don't need curved upper windows😢😢😢

[@airlineshow]

We all know that they will just buy Waratahs. Why even bother with the charade of considering everything else. They will upgrade T4 traction power.

[@thetrainguy4]

Because it would be political suicide.

[@airlineshow]

@@thetrainguy4 why would more Waratahs “made in NSW” be political suicide? They have made their bed with the double deckers. Sleep in it! Korean made? No. Chinese made? No. Spanish made? No. Victorian made? no no - they are all unsafe apparently.

[@airlineshow]

@@thetrainguy4 why would a Waratah “Made in NSW” be political suicide? Apparently anything made overseas is unsafe. Why not nationalize train building, because it’s the industry of the 21st century! Imagine the 10000 of jobs and billions of exports it would create!! 😂 look at what Victoria did. Alstom are basically an arm of PTV. No other manufacturers are interested in tendering there

[@ImmortalKxlla]

I absolutely dispise the tangaras 😂😂

[@auzzierocks]

They won't be replaced, they are immortal

[@pkerry12]

lol end of life? they still have the shit boxes with no AC in trhem running they won't retire these things.

[@thetrainguy4]

The K sets will go this year or next, leaving the Tangaras the oldest on the network.

[@converserook7655]

@@thetrainguy4 that's what the trains people say, however they have not even started modifying the D sets to fix the problems that caused all those strikes, i reckon the V sets will get to 50 years old before the D sets enter service meaning the K sets will be here for a while

[@fredoes]

Ga 9 nan lol