3D VTTs and Maps - I have some concerns!

3D Virtual Tabletops and RPG maps - they look cool, but ARE THEY?
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[@Geraint3000]

Really salient thoughts. My concerns: what happens to the theatre of the mind and how much more prep to do? Who has the time to set these complex dungeons up on top of what they're doing already?

[@CheezMonsterCrazy]

Most people already don't have time to make their own 2d VTT maps, which is why 90% of people use ones prepared by other people. It will be the same for 3d VTTs. The few I've played around with allow importing other people's work.

[@aa-tx7th]

well hate to say it but dnd should take a long time investment. and its fine if you dont have the time but frankly youre not getting nearly as much fun and investment out of a premade campaign using premade assets... yall should just play a multiplayer video game or something if dnd takes too much time dnd is long form dramatic improvization. its a time sink by definition. to take that away means taking what ttrpgs fundamentally are when compared to a final fantasy or mmorpg title. youre not playing real dnd if youre using premade assets and youre cheating yourselves outta emotional investment and fun.

[@moof1315]

@@aa-tx7th If dnd is a timesink for you, then you don't enjoy dnd. There's nothing wrong with working off of a premade campaign, as there's still a ton for a dm/gm to do. Requiring 3d assets is just not something most of us are looking for. If you use premade assets, then aside from the time required to do that on top of normal campaign and session prep, you're also stuck if your players do something unexpected, which is pretty much the entirety of what players do.

[@WASD20]

Could disagree more, a a. More time spent does not equal more fun. There are certain aspects of the hobby people enjoy that others do not, and that’s ok. Spend time on the parts that bring you joy, and when time is short get by with enough prep that all can still enjoy the game. If that means using a module and pre made assets that’s fine! Enjoy playing a game with your friends in whatever way works for you.

[@seitagosha]

They are NOT forbiding theater of the mind,they said that it will auxiliate your imagination,not replacing it,and neither anyone said that they will be enforcing it,you go with what you want. Personally for me,a person trying to dm that has terrible descriptive problems,and does'nt have the hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy miniature and terrains (in my country is three times more expensive than that),this will be good,but knowing Wizards,we all know the problem will be monetary part

[@elijahevans1191]

These are exactly my thoughts. A 3D tabletop will never be as fantastic as your own imagination.

[@rubyseach]

I second this comment

[@freddaniel5099]

Totally agree!

[@seitagosha]

They are NOT forbiding theater of the mind,they said that it will auxiliate your imagination,not replacing it,and neither anyone said that they will be enforcing it,you go with what you want. Personally for me,a person trying to dm that has terrible descriptive problems,and does'nt have the hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy miniature and terrains (in my country is three times more expensive than that),this will be good,but knowing Wizards,we all know the problem will be monetary part

[@scottturner3831]

No reason to worry! DnD figured out how to make us pay for stuff forever without ever actually owning it.

[@WASD20]

lol

[@dirtywhitellama]

There was a quote in Afterthoughts' video, How Games Create New Languages (fantastic video btw): "In a sport, you can do anything that is not expressly forbidden by the rules. In a video game, you can't do anything except what is expressly allowed by the system." I think this sums up my biggest concerns about 3d VTTs. People will work in the confines of the system if the system emulates too much, without emulating the free form reality of, well, reality.

[@stevenfoster5217]

I still think OSR's is the future of TTRPG's.

[@Snyperwolf91]

Damn right !!

[@SilvyReacts]

Personally, I always liked the way Critical Role does it where it's mainly theater of the mind aside from situations like combat where having something more visual can help quite a bit. In such a case I can see these 3D table tops coming in handy, especially if you want that kind of thing but can't afford getting a bunch of miniature buildings, dungeon pieces, and all that. It can also just be fun to have, even if you just use it as a reference and ideas.

[@TheIoPC]

There is also the concern, for me anyway, is how those heighten expectations of graphical fidelity could intimidate new GMs. For that matter even experienced GMs like me who prefer mostly 2d game assets might get some tension in their play group. This could further exacerbate the GM to player ratio the hobby already has. ~ Adam

[@lancearmada]

Yea i definitely feel like the more detailed your art style is, the harder it is to make something look good. I usually prefer simplistic black and white 2d maps where I can maybe put stuff down to represent things in a top down view, but at the end of the day i prefer to just write a room description. That being said, if this tool gets a large following of modders (note we already have such people on other map making tools, so this could bring modders across disparate tools to one central platform) then it could be modified to suit all of our needs, which is my hope for the tool.

[@_Woody_]

Yes, this mentions something I am very interested about too! I am working on a video covering the topic of the decreasingly clear separation between a VTT and Videogames.

[@ReallyVirtual]

I fully agree. I think Wizards of the Coast have taken a big mis-step. In fact, when they announced it, I was wondering if the people making the decisions have ever played their product?

[@Snyperwolf91]

Yeah . They stated they are fans of D&D since they were born or something at WotC but that diesnt if it is true or they tgey the deep knowledge of it. Its like im saying " Im a fan of the Backstreetboys too " but i dont know any Songs and i actually hate those guys and their music. Its shallow and fake at the same time just to get some useless sympathy-points . I think WotC just dont care about D&D and its overall quality . That corporatism at its finest . Just a brand name but not tge hobby/game.

[@WASD20]

While I agree there are issues at WotC, I have heard enough from Jeremy Crawford and Chris Perkins that makes me fundamentally trust these dudes. They seem to have a really genuine love of the game and are well-intentioned. That doesn't mean the corporate structure around them is going to ensure quality, and it certainly doesn't mean everyone will enjoy the direction they take. But that's why it's great that there are so many other options for games. If we don't dig it, we can easily move on to products that give us what we want.

[@natentequechuor738]

As someone with some form of aphantasia (inability to visualise), these kind of tools are absolutely necessary for me since the concept of Theater of the mind is a bit foreign to me So far I've been working with 2d maps and I can see how 3D immersion could help me and many others get drawn into the story more That said, I'm also afraid about the "video game like" part, but these are meant to be tools so I guess it'll be up to the dm's use that will make them feel more like video game or actual ttrpg

[@kronksstronkstonks6360]

I've got a friend in my games with aphantasia, and it can be rough for time consumption to ensure maps, handouts and tokens are accurately represented. Their engagement in the games went from being a peripheral member of exploration and doing very direct actions in combat using targets like "whoevers nearest", "the one that's hurt/not hurt" or "whatever hits the most people", to being fully invested in all aspects and doing much more in depth actions, so I'd days the payoff is super worth it. Honestly its surprising that it went unnoticed for so long and that they stuck with DnD for years. The before and after contrast is insane. As the one facilitating the changes to help display things though, I dont see myself moving to 3D VTTs anytime soon. The time consumption to make maps and tokens would become a full time job and burnout would be real. Especially for anything vaguely whimsical or beyond the norm in terms of map design or body type. And I'm also not made of money so I cant go buying every map/token in existence. Theyre cool in concept but its both easier and less time consuming to stick with 2D maps and tokens.

[@natentequechuor738]

@@kronksstronkstonks6360 Thank you for that, it's great to hear

[@beforetheloretheater7402]

@@kronksstronkstonks6360if you're worried about prep time when it comes to 3D VTTs I would highly consider checking out how far Menyr has come for generating land/towns and etc, their biggest goal is making it easy for new and long time DMs to spend less time prepping.

[@oskar6661]

I'm a tabletop miniature game designer, and I like the idea of some of these 3D VTT's...just not for role-playing games. To me, a role-playing game "is" theatre of the mind. It's one of many reasons I don't play D&D (a self-described "tabletop rpg"). Give me Dungeon World some dice and a notebook and I'm 100% set. So, having said that, I can see these 3D VTT's actually being better for tabletop wargames, skirmish games, etc. To me, role-playing games have always been solely about the imagination, the cooperative creativity, the absolute opposite of anything permanent/3D/rendered/drawn/modeled. That is the absolute strength of an RPG. It's also why I don't understand people being limited to what WOTC "says" you can do/run/make/use, etc. That's just low-key Games Workshop styled player manipulation.

[@lndozois]

Video game artist here to chime in. I couldn't agree more with the effect that added fidelity has on emersion. It's really a double edge sword as the more lifelike a game's presentation becomes, the more glaring the omissions. I experienced this first hand working on a CRPG. Like, the narration saying: "Glimbor bows to you respectfully and thanks you through choked back tears." Like, dude! I can see Glimbor is just standing there! What are you talking about!!? Take a game like Dwarf Fortress, it simply wouldn't be possible with the fidelity of a God of War or Last of Us. In such an open ended and dynamic simulation, the minimal graphic (or lack of graphics) allows "buy in" as I call it, from the player. I think too much fidelity in your VTT has the exact same issue.

[@MarkLewis...]

I, personally with my group, use props, crafts, minis, and theater of the mind, and probably still will.... but as for the new stuff... it's just a collaborative virtual MMO video game, for people with disposable income in playing DnD. There's being a respectful 'purist' to the original, but there's also being a snob... The #1 (and only real) rule in DnD is: "Make the game fun and your own."- G. Gygax It doesn't matter HOW you play, it's all good... Just play!

[@73caddydaddy93]

Being someone involved in Talespire sessions and Roll20 sessions, I don't find these concerns to be that much of an issue. Like 2d, they serve as a frame of reference for helping figure things out spatially but are a little more visually appealing like having nice minis and items for a tabletop. Plenty of imagination to use like in all other types of play and not everything warrants building out so there's lots to fill in with imagination between the different fleshed out scenes.

[@pedronovaes5993]

Before 3d maps we already had fully automatic characters sheets, automatic damage calculation, encounter calculators, animated maps, tokens and even spells. So where do you draw the line of "too videogamey"?

[@WASD20]

I enjoy some of those features and all these things can be viewed as helpful tools (even 3D VTTs), but they certainly can change the game, and some won’t like that change.

[@Shalloworldmx]

For me, it is hard enough to ask my players to invest in books or time (reading from my dndnbeyond shared content). Now, I’ll have to ask my players to have competent computers, which most of them don’t. That sucks.

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Theatre of the mind will always be my favorite 😅

[@tristanevans5024]

I feel the same kind of thing when we use my full assortment of miniatures and terrain with my group. They kind of shut off their imaginations and the game kind of becomes a board game at that point.

[@gvanbooven]

I agree with how it could limit spontaneity. I love when a player asks a question about the environment and we are able to world-build together. Or after an unexpectedly tough fight describe a chest that has a couple of healing potions. Or an unexpectedly easy fight, that chest is instead a mimic. 😈

[@O4C209]

I expect WotC to have it be a free model, subscription model, and a micro transaction model... like dndbeyond. The only thing I want from a 3d vtt is to be able to show that someone on a roof is 20 feet above the group. I don't need 3d objects.

[@BiimGamesDev]

I develop video games and I prefer old simple pixel art style games. Why? Because the imagination fill the gaps. Same here, I agree on everything you said. - Time consumption for learn how to use the tool and prepare every scene - No much chance to improvise something of the same quality you offer as the ones you have prepared ahead for weeks - Death of imagination exercise - Cost. Not only in subscription, but also on having an updated PC to run the program smoothly The list is quite long, but I can see a positive thing here. Bring video games players to tabletop games, little by little. Teaching them on how to start to use their imagination. Next step would be then move away from 3d VTT, and If possible, from VTT in general.

[@brittoleal]

I am a DM who favors playing physically, with dry erase tiles and real miniatures. However, I have Dungeon Alchemist for my full online group and I find it very helpfull. At first because it helps me to imagine better the room, as it algorithm ramdomizes things such lamps, decorations and craters. AND, last session, I used it to make a map of a mini boss battle, wich I thought that my players wouldn't enter quite yet, and for such, it wasn't ready. As they decided that they would enter it, I openend Dungeon Alchemist and fast-made a very satisfying mini-boss map and uploaded on my VTT and voilá. In general, I think that 3D map makers are marvelous tools, and as such, we should know how to use each tool in each moment.

[@PatrickSamphire]

My main concern, and it kind of ties in to what you say, is the lack of flexibility. Suppose a player comes up with something incredibly cool to do that might not strictly fit the rules but does meet the 'rule of cool'. Can these VTTs handle that? Are we going to find games more limited and less inventive as a result?

[@All-shall-say-Jesus-is-Lord]

I think one of the best upgrades a VTT or especially a fully 3D environment gives to ttrpgs is easy handling of complex geometry. I'm thinking in terms of line of sight, distance calculations, light levels, etc. Those can be difficult and time consuming to figure out on a real tabletop or especially in theater of the mind. A VTT can really speed that up and give way to some really cool complex arenas. So, my idea is to take the fully 3D VTT and purposely simplify the graphics and make everything sort of impressionist or super simplified to leave it up to he imagination, basically just using it for the 3D geometric space, distance, vision, light, and area of effect calculations and visuals. I would totally go for that.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

Worrying about getting line of sight, distance, etc exactly right feels, to me, more like miniatures war game than an RPG.

[@All-shall-say-Jesus-is-Lord]

@@Dennis-vh8tz fair point, but if it's super easy because of a 3D sketch board, might as well get the versimilitude you gain from it.

[@rosalindchapman9035]

My biggest worries are the tilesets available restricting the settings and themes gms want to tackle. The other huge one is limiting outside of the box thinking - think about punching a hole in a wooden building. In 2d or even minis the degree of abstraction makes that fine. But how do you handle that on a 3d app with very concrete rules that you cant draw line of sight through that wall or place a mini half way through it and the high visual fidelity is going to make your players constantly forget that there's supposed to be a hole in the wall. Thats just one example but there are a lot of potential common situation the app will actively harm your ability to portray.

[@The8bitbeard]

I actually want a VTT system that looks like Ultima III. Low color, low resolution, tile-based maps you can throw together in an instant.

[@Ghostdesuu]

I can make a simple representation of a chatacter or draw a piece of furniture on a map or something pretty much in real time in a 2d environment. I'd need a 3d artist to have done the job beforehand in a 3d vtt. Using 2d maps seems to be a nice middle ground between just having wall outlines and making a garrys mod level every session

[@cristianhakansson7443]

I think apart from (or perhaps as a consequence of) the problem of leaving less to the imagination, there's also the risk that as a GM planning a session you start shrinking your ideas to what the tool can represent. Having started making physical terrain recently though, I notice that fights get a lot more dynamic and lead to a lot more creative use of the environment when players can actually see said environment.

[@tyleremery7088]

Foundry also supports 3D, with the 3D Canvas module (via theripper93's Patreon). Pretty cool stuff, just not for me. As for the thoughts you expressed in the video, these are pretty much the same concerns I have with 3D VTTs and why I'll be sticking to 2D (I play in person but everyone brings their laptops to use Foundry for maps and character sheets). On a 2D, top-down battlemap (VTT or otherwise), there's an intrinsic assumption that what you see isn't necessarily exactly what's in the scene, nor is it everything that's in the scene. Not only that, but there are no hard-coded ways in which you can interact with the world. Sure, some VTTs allow for a significant amount of automation (I myself have most rolls and character abilities simplified down to one or two clicks at most and some even run special macros), but it's not like you can really show that your character picks up that stack of paper that was drawn as part of the background image. Because the VTT itself is not telling you what you can or can't do with your character, beyond perhaps where you can or can't move your token, it's a big sandbox where you can interact freely. On a 3D VTT environment, however, the VTT tells you what's on the scene, but counterintuitively there's less detail. Not because the models themselves aren't detailed, but because the VTT only details the parts of the world that you can interact with - the "important" bits - and perhaps a little bit of static dressing that's mostly there for aesthetics, because there may not be assets for every single little specific thing (too much time and effort to make every irrelevant bit of dungeon dressing in 3D as opposed to the mapmaker drawing a little doodle on the map in 30 seconds) so you have to make do with what you have. There's also a more concrete sense that what you see is what you get. For instance, let's say your token is in a nicely-textured room with a table in the middle and a knife sitting on the table. While there may be more in the room than that in actuality, and you can interact with any of it if you so choose, the DM only had 3D assets for the knife and the table, and there's no way to code all the possible interactions you *could* do with any of the room dressing, so the room appears largely bare otherwise. It ends up feeling like this is all you see and all you can do, due to the limits of the VTT itself. In a video game this is a non-issue, because video games are specifically coded with all the actions you're able to do and nothing you can't do. But in a TTRPG, which relies heavily on creativity and improvisation, having your environment dictate your potential interactions like that feels super restrictive.

[@BarneyWobba]

When Covid hit I decided to use TTS to simulate DnD games with several friends. It worked very well and we had a good time. However, you are right, the imagination side is partially lost as things have been so heavily defined by the detail of the maps. Personally, it was not an issue for me as a DM because it brought my vision into better focus, and we could also bypass the map and do actual roleplay over VOIP and I could just modify the map. With Menyr there is a lot more detail and a much faster process for a DM to create a world, if only for a one off or a massive campaign. It has HUGE potential. 2D gaming systems work well and are a lot less complex, but for games based online, very limited in scope for a DM to convey an environment.

[@RunningBox1995]

as a person without a "visual brain" I'm actually looking forward to 3d virtual tabletops to help me connect more to the story when I can see the world around me.

[@bradmacca11]

I use a mixture of all, theatre of the mind, tabletop minis, and if the players visit a tavern or a shop, I generally have them premade on my Talespire, more just to run in the background. I still describe the decal of the shop, the Talespire build is more of a guide of what shape it is, layout of furniture etc :) it would never take away the main tabletop.

[@lover_of_Books]

I wanted to say me and my friends use Table Top Simulator, which we actually greatly prefer over roll20 because for us its more immersive but not to the story aspect but but the 'sitting at a table with friends' we can throw things at each other and personalize our little corner. The Steam workshop makes getting assets easy but we really only use 2d maps of gameboards (again very easy to set up) there also several libraries of mini's for the dm to pull from with ease. but even when we were just testing it out and we didn't know all that it was great. our early games together involved hand drawn maps using vectors and our pcs were chess pieces with faces drawn on them. Plus tts has a major added benifit the other 3d platforms don't have, we don't just have to play dnd, we can play virtually any game known to man. overall I can't recommend tts enough for any virtual groups out there who feel like a 2d virtual is not suited for their group. :) I also forgot to mention that you can also get character sheets in the game via the workshop, so if that is a concern its solved. as a simple statment the big majority of items you could think to want at a dnd table are on the work shop... including the table itself!

[@johgranger1304]

They should make their editors compatible with VR helmets. You could pickup, move and place everything with your hands.

[@cattrucker8257]

Long story short, premade 3D programs are either only good for generic fantasy (often painfully so) and present only a single style of everything, might offer more in the future but no way they'd be affordable, or both. Meanwhile, simply using online connectivity tools but only a map with tokens beyond that can let you do an infinite number of settings and imagined concepts that, in a VTT, would have had to be made beforehand by a modeler and implemented, and would still be only somewhat like what you want to be.

[@Csetreki]

Im using Dungeon Alchemist, but only for 2D maps and for many cause. 1:Owlbear Rodeo can handle only 2D map, and its free 2: Token master is perfect for 2D maps, and free too. I can google for an image quickly to make a token for an NPC or an enemy. 3: With these simple maps, we can measure the distances for certain spells, and movement. 4: Altought, dungeon master is costly, but really quick and easy to make a simple map. If I want to customize it, for my imagination, I can do that easily.

[@AvianEdits]

I like these VTTs cuz some people lack the imagination and they trully see just a flat 2d world on regular VTTs. Giving them a 3D world could make em feel more immersed in it. I personally have a player that just cant follow theater of the mind but they want to play. I've even started making scenario photos for them so they could imagine it better. This could actually bring the game to a wider audiance

[@danielmorgan5949]

Another virtual tabletop that I think looks potentially interesting is 'RPG Stories'. It hasn't been released yet but I think that it is worth checking out.

[@jahvyn]

Having just watched your intro, here are my thoughts: this type of software is obviously fantastic but during my few experiences of using vtts left me feeling like I was playing more of a video game than a ttrpg. The automation is incredible but I felt like I lost a lot of what appeals to me about ttrpgs. They're great, but not for me. Now to watch the vid!

[@Barcodum]

I just had a thought. Anyone know of a site that can generate good hex maps or just straight square grids with coordinate markers in the margins?

[@unknowncomic4107]

Talespire maps can only be played within the Talespire application. It doesn't allow the export of jpg or png files for use in other applications and that is going to be a huge turn off for many. I purchased it hoping to use it to create maps. Yeah I don't use it anymore.

[@jasoncarlaritz5558]

Along with the cost aspect is the hardware considerations within the group. Will a normal laptop or chromebook be able to render these things with little to no problem? My weekly session has trouble just getting everybody’s video to run smoothly through Roll20. It won’t be great when you spend 10 to 15 minutes getting “Bob” to be able to chime in or his signal drops right in the middle of some intense part of the session, all because he is unwilling to admit that his machine (or his internet service) simply can’t handle it.

[@WASD20]

I’ve never been happy with how clunky and intensive Roll20 can be. Anyway, you make a good point.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

Or maybe Bob just isn't rich enough to drop $2000+ on gaming PC, and lives in an area where there aren't any ISP's capable of handling it, at least not a price he can reasonably afford.

[@andynonimuss6298]

Nog Studio's Menyr will be the BEST 3D VTT! Menyr will be supported by 3D content developers. It will allow GMs to customize almost everything! Modern-day miniatures are pretty limited in the way they look with pre-designed armor, clothing, faces, and weapons that don't look like your player character.

[@aryanabennett6829]

I like using Tabletop Simulator with D&D, my group enjoys it as well. However we do use a mix of that and Theatre of the mind. What i like about TTS though, is that I can just open up a blank image and draw on it if needed. So im able to get that custom aspect as well (none of us live near each other. So Online playing is our only option. So if we want a map visual, we kind of have to use a VTT.

[@Finkeldinken]

It's not for me, for much the same reasons you mention, but I don't think it's detrimental for the game overall in any way. There will just be even more different ways to play now, and that's always a plus in my mind. I love that it will be there for the people who want it! Myself, I'll stick to my "limited palette" ttrpg style.

[@Deadwindshadow]

Ever thought of a projector mounted on the ceiling pointing downward at the table?

[@WASD20]

Would certainly be cool. I still play in person, but it's rare. I envision most of my ongoing campaigns will be online for the most part so it wouldn't make sense for me.

[@masterbuilder7577]

Another one that's pretty cool is talespire, more of a low poly art style but it's mainly focused on vr (the low poly art style is necessary for the standalone vr headsets such as the oculus quest) and has an awesome community, just released fully too

[@WASD20]

Talespire is one of the first ones I mentioned. Are you thinking of a different one ?

[@masterbuilder7577]

@@WASD20 lmao my bad yea I meant tavern tales

[@Cometer]

I completely agree. But that’s why having options is good. There is a space between traditional tabletop and full blown CRPG to be filled. That’s why I love the Divinity 2 GM mode. In the past there were few options. Everything was automated on CRPGs. The upcoming Baldur’s Gate 3 is a good example. Scripted, AI driven with automated dice rolls and all that. Great to play a pre defined story. But there is no way for a human GM to step in and change things on the fly based on player actions or for players to use their imagination to come up with unforeseen solutions. Some of these 3d VTTs aim to fill that spot. Not so automation driven as the typical CRPG but with tools that help you tweak the experience either way and provide several degrees of immersion with their visuals.

[@slagmoth]

DA isn't really a VTT, it is a mapping software. I had concerns and talked to them on the Discord about their direction that looked like they were going down, as I didn't need another VTT I needed mapping. They indicated that although there would be some aspects they didn't plan on integrating VTT type things like rules and such into the software any time soon at least.

[@harmonyinclarity]

I don't think there is any problem with internet vtts. People who prefer theater of the mind will still play theater of the mind. People who enjoy maps and minis will still play maps and minis etc. One thing to consider is not everyone has the same ability to imagine things. And maybe that inability has kept those individuals from diving into ttrpgs. I think it's a great tool that will only bring more people into the hobby. It won't be for everyone, but no way to play is. That's the beauty of ttrpgs. And it will always be. I'm of the opinion of the more tools we have and the more people we can bring into the hobby the better.

[@Z0mb13ta11ahase]

I agree, when I DM there is the image i have in my mind when I describe a city, regardless of how much i tell my players they will have their own image in their head. And most of the time I think thats a good thing, lets them exist in the world they pull from my words. Only time I really pull out a map is for combat and thats really just a grid with some lines pointing out the walls and doors. Makes the combat pretty hack and slash but im more the roleplayer type of DM as opposed to grindfest for XP.

[@boopernator]

I like the idea of some kind of VR game table, like on an Oculus device. Then if you can't all get together you can play online in VR like you are sitting around the table at someones house.

[@WASD20]

Demeo is pretty great for this. Not an RPG, but a pretty great dungeon crawler board game. I’ve had lots of fun with it.

[@boopernator]

@@WASD20 I think I saw a video on that game, but couldn't remember the name of it. Thank you.

[@solarboy48]

Agreed with this 100%! It's important to let the player's have their own mental image of what your world and scenes look like, based on your rich descriptions. Nate, I'm sure you've seen 'Season 2' of the Provokers -- if so, do you remember the initial description of the city of Falhast, and the way it was described underneath (the underground portion where the party encounters one of the first Big Bads that I won't spoil)? Because I sure do! I remember it in detail, and I have an extremely vivid mental image of what the city looks like. Someone else probably has a totally different mental image! And that's beautiful. But I don't want their mental image forced on me, just as I don't want mine forced on them. I'm personally excited for virtual table tops and I've been following Talespire for years (I guess it's released now? Great news!). However, I don't see myself enjoying it for every campaign/oneshot I play. It'd be the occasional tool for a specific moment or scene, maybe to help ground the players in the general theme/style I'm going for.

[@thibni_]

Oh! Also! Not true about Talespire. I've used it with my players and a single screen. Of course, It means I lose public access to the DM tools, but I've had the players tell me where to go and I've done it for them. And to increase the experience, I've bought the game on a seperate account so that I could put the player experience on screen and DM version on another PC that only I see. ❤️

[@showmanshipgaming1326]

I can't help but wonder what One D&D is going to mean for Adventure League.

[@freddaniel5099]

The more I use my imagination the more involved I am. 3D vtt seems like a passive approach. Why watch your hero in something built by a programmer when you can imagine so much more? Active entertainment is what I personally want from my ttrpg. Otherwise I would rather read a book or watch a film. Having expressed my preference, I am sure that 3D vtt will be just what some players want and that's okay! Cheers!

[@WASD20]

Agreed! If people enjoy them, they should absolutely use them.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Good information I still prefer to game in person with minis but sometimes you can’t Ya I don’t want to pay either

[@LOVESGOBLINS1996]

It's pretty straight forwards don't like it? Don't use it. Like certain aspects of it? use them. Want to run a completely theatre of the mind game with your players at home or via online? That's fine all the tools are there. Want to run a more digitally orientated experience with 2d or 3d battle maps and maps then the resources are there for that too. That's the beauty of the game, No one group's experience is the same and no one can gatekeep how anyone else should experience their campaign in my opinion. You just have to ask your players what kind of game they want to play, put your ideas forth to them on how you want to run it and go from there.

[@seanpuello]

I think the farthest I'll go is using a monitor as a map and placing figures on that monitor. Like arkenforge.

[@andrewc965]

Less = more. I mix and match the tools. Suggest you try Dumgeondraft for mapping probably right up your alley.

[@WASD20]

It is. I own and use it. 😊

[@arlopaden9794]

this is a great point.

[@Xenibalt]

its always a bummer that they are so limited on dynamic lighting and map size seems to me the whole point of a VTT is to be able to finally make a good large map but then they lag and crash actual garbage, all VTTs suffer from this not just the 3D ones tho

[@gcook725]

My friends and I are all gamers and while I feel fine with theater of the mind and more abstract play, but almost my entire group incapable of not needing and wanting complex tactics and grid-based gameplay. They cannot process the abstractness of theater of the mind and really, really rely on VTTs or at least grided maps. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

I'm worried about compatibility, which is a much bigger concern for 3D than 2D. Current 2D VTT's all run in any reasonably modern web browser running on any platform. In contrast I recently saw a 3D VTT kickstarter that required a client application which was available for Windows and Mac. Would it run on M1 Mac's or only x86 ones? I don't know. It couldn't be used on Linux or BSD, nor a playstation or Xbox, nor mobile devices. If my DM or group choose a VTT that runs on their computers/devices, but not mine, I'm excluded from the game.

[@alexjet85]

pretty sure dungeon alchemist ISN'T a VTT but just a mapmaking tool, there are no game system in it and it is just for creating and exporting maps to other VTTs

[@WASD20]

Yup

[@Ebolson1019]

Time was always my biggest issue with these, backed talespire on kickstarter and have barely touched it cause it just takes too long to make a map

[@WASD20]

Yeah, I hear you. Maybe look at that Tales Tavern site I mentioned. It's pretty great for just pulling in builds from people who have already done the work.

[@Watjalukinat]

I would like to have access to a ton of 3d models of monsters etc for use at my table but just as an image. I am more interested in UDK maps using a projector or tv.

[@Watjalukinat]

I'm also interested in the development of vocal deep fakes/ voice changers as well as live video deep fake. I could see using it as a DM to make a character talk to a PC bt recording myself and using this tech.

[@Watjalukinat]

All this is really just saying that I am not very interested in 3d vtt except for what tech they could bring as a result.

[@yofedstyhrega4594]

What's the difference between 2d map compared to 3d. I think this point is weak unless you're saying theater of the mind is better. Which sure I can see but it's still handier to have something to see while roleplaying especially if you want more people to play dnd. the average person sadly doesn't have a rich imagination and good visual way of thinking Being able to see the see things without having to keep in mind the whole description of a room. Is nice. Even if I as the dm where to say imagine this table to be red wood rather then oak. It'll be easier to imagine this since at least you can see the table you just need a mental color swap Also the library will come eventually if the tools to create them are good eventually there will be enough for lots of variety At the end of the day this will just be another tool and I'm hoping it's good and easy to use building.

[@WASD20]

I think you make some great points near the end, but I think there IS a fundamental difference between a 2d map and 3d map. Being able to move around and view an object in 3d brings it to life in a different way and does tend to shut down my imagination more than a 2D map. I also STRONGLY disagree that the average person doesn't have a rich imagination. I think it's there within nearly all of us, and we just need to nurture it. Some of us have and others have more work to do in that area. I don't disagree that visual representations of things in RPGs can help at times, (I use maps and images to show my players) but I think there should be a balance and for me 3D VTTs tip the scales a bit off balance. But that's just me. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone using a 3D map that they're doing it wrong. If there having fun with it, they're absolutely doing it right.

[@espilcEkraD]

i wouldn't mind using one of these as i struggle with my imagination and its extremely bad to the point that if that if my DMs didn't have artwork of NPCs i can look at when they talked and had just described them i wouldn't even be able to picture them when they talk

[@sanctuary570]

I am interested in these because i want to be that DM who crafts their own dungeon tiles, paints their minis but it is near impossible where i am to DM a game in meatspace where i am. I want to simulate that experience for the players.

[@NadavBrand]

right on

[@davidsrushton1]

Looks a lot like playing Neverwinter Nights with a DM?

[@WASD20]

Your not far off!

[@thejoester]

While I like TotM a lot, I find that there are more players that have troubles picturing things in their minds the same way I do, and leads to frustration and they leave. Also, at least for 5E - the game mechanics are built specifically around a grid - so not having some sort of grid or map just doesnt work as well.

[@WASD20]

There are definitely some things I personally had to learn about playing theater of the mind that that made it easier. It was a hard adjustment at first, but as a player I got some good tips from friends. Would probably make a good video!

[@johnyfpinto6943]

Joguei GURPS durante muitos anos, migrei para o d20 e vi de cara uma coisa perdida, o “teatro da mente” que foi molestado para o grid de batalha. GURPS eu não usava grid e tudo era imaginação, e dava super certo o máximo era riscar um papel com bolas e linhas pra tirar alguma dúvida.

[@dalewallem6460]

I agree. Great points. Being able to just use my, and my groups, imagination is my favorite part. All the new technology takes away from that. If I wanted to play this way then I would play Warcraft with friends online. Isn't using our imaginations what DnD was all about? Well, that and making me do math.

[@tyleremery7088]

I play in person but we use Foundry for maps and character sheets. I've got some fancy assets (trees/roofs that you can walk under, animated spells, etc.) and automation (simplified rolls that do the math for me, traps that trigger when a token moves over a certain spot, etc.), but nothing is so detailed that it limits creativity, and you can find assets for just about everything in any number of variations (and even more possiblities now that AI image generators are becoming more mainstream). 3D VTTs are a step too far though in my opinion, because your creativity is limited by the assets you have - which are far fewer because it takes a lot more time to specifically make a VTT-compatible 3D model of some random bit of dungeon dressing than it does to publish an image on the internet for a completely unrelated purpose - as well as the interactions that the VTT is capable of.

[@angrysmileyface4204]

Interesting discussion! Personally, I don’t think it's likely that 3D VTTs and maps will displace old school DnD. Changes in the media available more often than not mean that a new genre develops, not that the old medium dies completely. I'm interested to see if these VTTs might lead to a genre of videogames where TTRPG and VRPG get blended. But since these two do different things, I don’t think either will get displaced by this potential genre.

[@Galvamel]

I don't really worry that using a good VTT would make things too samey. I can see that with some of the less detailed ones, but I think that with a good one it wouldn't be too hard to mix things up. That said, I absolutely agree that it should really only be used for big set pieces and not on a regular basis. Not really because it would get repetitive, but more because it seems like a pain to use all the time. Mostly, I worry that the video gamifying of D&D will open the door to video game toxicity and monetizing.

[@eXdXgXe4life]

I say bring on the technology! Players with vr headsets would be awesome.

[@WASD20]

Fair enough!

[@johnharrison2086]

Imagination. This is all you need. The other stuff is unnecessary fluff. I currently play a game over discord. The other players use Roll20 for the map. I just use Theatre of the mind. I am not missing out on anything by ignoring the virtual map.

[@RobertHartleyGM]

2.07 Hey, it's DAG!

[@WASD20]

Sure is. What a guy! :)

[@kaitepurdy2595]

As a GM (for pay and not for pay) who uses 3d VTTs, I get it. I still do about 75-80% of my stuff theater of the mind, with 25-20% of my games being 3d. But, as a GM, video game, and hardware nerd rolled into one, I like the idea of 3D VTTs pushing that boundary because I want to see how good they can blend in that creative aspect with the limitations that 3D has (needs a lot of work to make assets and what not). I think it comes down to choice and what you want to see. I like video games and tabletop and messing around with graphics cards and computer stuff, so the 3d tabletops like Menyr are things I want to see from the market. I have a group lined up for when the beta drops next year and everything 😅 But I get that's not for everyone, and from time to time I enjoy the simple approach too, so meh. To each their own, as long as we are having fun!

[@WASD20]

Well said!

[@thibni_]

Mmmh. You do bring some interesting points. However... It brings me to wonder... What about those artists who took great time to build physical maps? 🤔 We're talking about something very similar, but in Digital instead of Physical. Sooo, what's the difference in the end? 🤔

[@WASD20]

Yes, I also think it’s a danger there too. They can be really cool, but there’s the same downside.

[@thibni_]

​@WASD20 mmmh. I have difficulties to imagine what is around me unless a full, detailed explanation is described. As a DM and a player, I find that having these 3d models helps me alleviate the time it takes to go into the depths of the description. I'm not a Purist, as I only play DnD for all the other stuff you can do. Like, describing some really cool move that a character wants to pull off and having a map to describe it and make sense of it is absolutely insanely cool and just as fun. But recently, I played a game where it focused so much on imagination that I was completely lost. I have other things to do than play DnD, and if it becomes tedious to the point where I lose the fun in it... 😥 Just because I cannot imagine a scene. Others might, I don't. And without being given very specific things to do, I won't think twice about leaving that table, y'know?

[@thibni_]

BTW, I'm continuing to watch your video. You mark some reallllly good points. Stuff that I've tried to apply in my own game. Smaller less significant battles are being less and less displayed on screen and more with the imagination. To help, I use an Image of the Beast on the Screen and that's it. It helps teach the new players the transition slowly to help them ❤️

[@skelitonking117]

I don’t feel like VTT’s are limiting of the imagination at all, in fact using the assets and tools given to you, in the best way you want, is a technique for strengthening one’s imagination. In fact, i’d go as far to say the opposite messaging in concern to every other commenter here; If you find VTT’s limiting, maybe your ability to utilize your imagination needs work? If you only have the ability to imagine, and realize that imagination with a perfectly blank slate, well, that’s easy 🤷‍♂️

[@Hwelhos]

nice vid :p

[@Thandulfan]

My opinion on these 3d vtts will always be the same. I want to play/run game, not spend most of the time prepping 3d maps and solving technical issues during play. Vtts should be tools that make it faster to run game and show the basics of what's going on, this is complete opposite. No need fancy animations or effects in vtt if everyone can imagine their own version

[@taserrr]

Strongly agree, I already dislike the direction DnD has been going in, trying to appeal to such a broad audience that there's no actual character left for the game as it becomes a generic pool of all happy fantasy things. If 3d elements are going to become the norm, it will certainly change the game, which would be for the worse for the old fans and new who enjoy the creativity of 2d/theater of the mind.

[@joshualichkay7047]

They look cool.

[@HeadlessStudiosDotCom]

No concerns what so ever. It was inevitable and a genre of computer RPG not Table Top RPG.

[@lapislarka]

A little late, but I'm personally not concerned. It is not the tool but the hand behind it, as they say. 3D VTTs are just one of many available options, and like anything else some people will prefer it and others will not. Further, for many of the reasons pointed out here *cough* *cough* prep load *cough*, I do not see these supplanting anything.

[@mythyc9604]

I can’t wait. Been asking for this for years. I don’t have an lgs and no local gaming. This is simply the next step from discord and roll20

[@tyleremery7088]

Might I suggest Foundry? $50 one-time price for the GM only, with tons and tons of free, open source, community-made modules (and many more premium ones by supporting community content creators on Patreon). Little bit of a learning curve but it's fantastic once you've messed around with it for a little while to figure everything out. There's also the ability to automate a lot of things (especially combat) via modules and JavaScript macros.

[@mythyc9604]

@@tyleremery7088 I’ve looked at them in the past. Didn’t take to it. I want One Dnd. Just a high Fidelity digital tabletop. As if I’m at a real table. No animations. Just good atmospheric lighting and fog of war. Thas it. And we better be able to upload 3d models for minis

[@WASD20]

I hear you, and as I said in the video I definitely see the attraction. At the end of the day, having more ways to play is a good thing and I think some people will really enjoy these tools.

[@francescopace7079]

You've worked it out. VTT has no room for imagination.. less is more.

[@thebeanz7838]

Personally feel things like Critical Role presents a lot of those issues more then a 3D Environment.

[@WASD20]

🤔

[@jasonmountain4643]

Might as well play a video game.

[@ProstheticFitness]

I think your concerns are invalid. I've been using Talespire for awhile, and none of us have felt it stymied our imagination whatsoever. In fact, the players felt it made the games even more immersive, while still engaging our imaginations as well.

[@ba-cr2jo]

Menyr was exactly what I was looking for, to add realism to my campaigns.Thanks for the video. That is the future of Tabletop Gaming and we must embrace it.

[@dane3038]

300xp

[@proverbialking3452]

DMs everywhere: shit...

[@henriquecamboim]

8:53 I wouldnt be so sure of that. I can definitely see a future in which WotC no longer publishes and distributes physical books and converts entirely to digital products. Also... I am a heavy user of Talespire and Dungeon Alchemist. The first for a digital table I run and the latter for a in person table. In both cases I only make maps when I know there is a chance of combat, it saves me work, time and mental health.

[@WASD20]

I think if that happens it is decades away. The roots of this hobby are SO analog I think moving digital only would be suicide.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

@@WASD20 I think WoTC would like to make everything digital and will do so as soon as they think they can get away with it. I expect they will continue ramping up the price of books until everybody buys the more affordable digital products instead, then use the lack of sales to justify dropping the books. Moving to a subscription model that requires regular payments to access old material, moves their business model to one that generates passive revenue, saving them the effort (expense) of constantly developing new books to sell.

[@life4trinity]

Tabletop Simulator is a great 3D VTT that doesn't do anything special and allows you to plot miniatures on a 2D map.