40k Lore! The Primaris Rant! The good, The bad, and the Cawl!

[@caeronyates1942]

Me: *knows nothing about Crawl* Arch: *lists a series of nonsense backstories* Me: "Yeah those would be ridiculous" Arch: ".. and it was ALL OF THEM"

[@dannythehonestgamer6051]

And that is how you create a massive plot hole that makes no sense what so ever.

[@brigandboy1425]

He even forgot about the part where Cawl basically backs up his brain in a self-made computer that fits in his hands. It's about the size of a baseball, if I recall. Which he made in a workshop in his spare time while he was a tech adept who was dodging promotion (and servitude to one discipline). Also left out the part where Cawl used that backup as extra RAM for a direct neural interface with drones, so he could control a few dozen more and save the station from xenos. Cawl is so awesome he can hack the gibson by himself.

[@modakkagitplugga]

Plot hole so dense it's officially a singularity

[@Elenrai]

@@brigandboy1425 Dont forget that he literally stored his best friend on the equivalent of a 5GB USB flashdrive AFTER the friend died, and proceeded to make some +70 fucking servitor versions of his friend! (Not all at once, his "best friend" just seems to have made it a bad habit imo!)

[@mobiuscoreindustries]

yeah, cawl is stupid. I mean, i like 40k characters with an actual brain, that stay on the very edge of morality and are willing to break imperial laws when they feel like it is needed, and i actually like the looks of him, but cawl just goes too far. it is a big issues when writers want to assert a character in a story, because they want it to be better, stronger and more important than everyone else. but this is 40k, things are already batshit crazy, but there is limits. yes, it is true that the emperor didn't exactly made the perfect model for space marines, since he needed to have them ready for the great crusade, and well, he needed them for a similar purpose as the thunder warriors, and those where far from perfect. but this is still the god damn emperor, with the full support of all the resources of terra AND thousands of years of knowledge including things dating from the golden age of technology AND arcane warp knowledge beyond the comprehension of anyone. you simply cannot beat that, even with ten thousands years of research, even IF you aren't a newcomer to that field. improvements in some fields? maybe, probably. after all you do have data gathered from the great crusade and everything the space marines did, which big E didn't have, as he MADE the things first. so it is reasonable that you could find some ways the template could be improved. same goes for the armor. if you have the template and are willing to actually invent things, you could simply apply the concept, and really think in your domain of expertise and eventually come out with ways of making things better. takes a lot of times, resources, and blokes with very specific skills, but it can be done. but that MF did it in almost EVERY FIELD, while also making BRAND NEW THINGS, ALONE AND IN SECRET!!! I mean, i know that if you are willing to use AI very illegaly, you can be pretty clever, but i don't see how you could be able to shuffle MILLIONS of primaris marines around the galaxy under the eye of the god damn inquisition, people who will come down on your planet as soon as some bloke even breathed the wrong way.

[@shawnm1902]

Cawl: If I were to have a backstory, I'd prefer it to be multiple choice....

[@TDBoedy]

E) all of the above

[@Anton-cc7yc]

Well, his backstory is a bit of a clusterfuck... however, you should at least admit that his personality is ffffffucking amazing, at least in “The Great Work”. He is a fucking genius... infuriating, egotistical, self-centered, arrogant bastard who is always thinking that he is right... and I fucking love it.

[@FreeOfFantasy]

Honestly if you take the bit that he brainjacked a bunch of other techpriests than it's not that bad. It's just the backstories of the techpriests he absorbed.

[@Anton-cc7yc]

ukezi fair point. However, Arch’s criticism has its merits. Just amount of money he had to spend... well, to put it mildly: he have to be 40k version of Bill Gates who completely robbed Trump and few others CEO. Hope they will explain it in the next books as well as his relationship with Guilliman, Emperor and Felix. But still, I hadn’t seen so entertaining and engaging character from BL for a long long time.

[@AtomicFire1972]

Cawl has something of a backstory. But like much of the lore in 40k, there is much omitted and mysterious.

[@autumn5308]

*Grey Knight:* I am a super space marine! *Cawl:* Behold, I have created super duper space marines! *Grey Knight:* (To self) A super duper space marine? Then I must achieve a level far beyond that. I will become a super de duper space marine!

[@DragonHammer45]

AND THIS, IS TO GO EVEN FURTHER BEYOND-

[@DragonHammer45]

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY--

[@dropdead234]

Better than the Grey Knights !? *GASP* *MATT WARD SEEEEEEEETHEEEEESSSSS.*

[@kmeanxneth]

space wolves say hi

[@nobleman9393]

Cawl: This isn't even my final form!

[@KyleJordanGaming]

The Horus Heresy: where literally everyone lost. Except Guilliman.

[@ultra-papasmurf]

*Shadily looks at you*

[@murderousmayhem6362]

@@ultra-papasmurf Lol

[@luizhenriquealves9755]

Guilliman is a politician, even when they lose they win something else, politics are all about backstabs, failsafes, deals and getting the upper hand eventually, Guilliman being the politics and admistration primarch is suposed be cappable of winning somehow someway even when all turns to shit, also he's the daddy of ultramarines he's never suposed to lose

[@atsukunisumeragi1967]

@@luizhenriquealves9755 makes me think of the Fresh Prince part 2. How funny it would be if The Emperor threw Guilliman and Cawl both out of the airlock.

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

Neck slit thrown in a ditch 10k years..

[@captainpuffinpuffinson4769]

"When you need to purge just purge, don't talk" - brother captain Eastwoodous the dirty

[@vladdrakul7851]

Yeah I am sure every totalitarian regime agrees with you. Look at China! Clint Eastwood was a spokes person for police that murder rather than follow THE LAW, as in all types of fascism, which kind of underlines the whole 'law and order' hypocrisy doesn't it. Like the MSM 'taking down' Trump (on the Right) and Corbyn/Sanders ( on the Left) and Assange in the middle. Guilty of Truth telling and embarrassing the oligarchs. Sadly Arch, as entertaining as he is, attracts the biggest tools in his audience and indeed encourages it. A great pity. He is smart enough to know better. Want less refugees btw?? Simples support peace not eternal wars causing the refugee flow. Both 'SIDES' Stink and so do the 'Primaris Marines'.

[@MachineMan-mj4gj]

@@vladdrakul7851 Glad to see people still willfully misinterpreting the themes of the Dirty Harry movies, and remaining willfully ignorant of the sociopolitical realities of the times they were made.

[@williambaldwin6779]

Vlad Drakul you...you realize that this comment was directed at 40k. It wasn’t directed at any groups that exist in reality. It was directed at the Primaris Marines. You took a simple comment someone put out there and twisted it to throw politics into it, when politics was never even mentioned. Also need I point out the word “Purge” is somewhat of a meme in the 40k community.

[@captainpuffinpuffinson4769]

@@williambaldwin6779 can we purge this heretic already? I'm kind of insulted that blabber was my first comment...

[@lachlanphilbey3759]

Video uploaded 7 hours ago Comment uploaded 1 day ago Logic 40000

[@geoffreysavitz1278]

"The STD of Chaos." Slaanesh is happy

[@smilingbandit6900]

what happend to STIs?

[@Reddotzebra]

Nurgle is also happy

[@Seraphim_Metal_Works]

@@smilingbandit6900 it's PC bullshit.

[@jidk6565]

Khorne is confused Tzeentch is laughing Khorne is angry

[@Hubert_Cumberdale_]

STD's are desease and therefore are more Nurgles domain.

[@Venneroth]

Cawl designed armor with disposable, ablative plating. In 40k. Where manufacturing can barely keep up with the need for the non-disposable Mark VII. Where all supply deliveries have to go by Warp travel. Where all requisition orders have to be sent by astropath. Where Space Marines sometimes have to operate without any support for months or years at a time. Genius.

[@peterkeyes1814]

@Daniel Drew Seems by his post he already has.

[@justinfrazier9555]

@Daniel Drew I guess sarcasm misses the mark

[@iwillbecomeimmortalordietr8506]

Disposable armour to go with disposable and forgetable space marines.

[@AAhmou]

They'd barely survive a couple of battles in the 42nd millenium.

[@mariuscatalin5982]

buying from the nearest planet? with high clearence?

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

"We have fought the Long War against Chaos without them for ten thousand years. New genetics? New weapons? Spawned from the work of a Tech-Magos trying to imitate - no, worse - to improve upon the Emperor's own labours? Battle-brothers who do not even serve time in the Scout Company or the Devastators before taking their place in the line? I neither trust nor need such warriors in my ranks Pavras. Dorn's Fist, they aren't even proven in battle!" - Captain Dysorian, Imperial Fists 4th Company "A perversion of the Emperor's work. He may be a rotting corpse, but he created perfection in the Legiones Astartes. I cannot imagine for a moment that some arrogant Magos Biologis will have done anything but flaw that work beyond redemption." -D'Sakh of the Alpha Legion

[@danishsyed1068]

the first one disregarded the other get's ass kicked and barely wins his fight

[@evanremillard5640]

Damn, when a traitor legionnaire even thinks thre Primaris are bullshit you know you fucked up.

[@Paerigos]

@@evanremillard5640 Well - Emperor would be the first entity to admit that even he isnt perfect and his work is flawed. Like thunderwarriors werent spike of perfection and thats why they were killed off... and well - when that tech-magos has knowledge of Sedane...

[@alyseleem2692]

@@Paerigos Indeed. But he was the greatest human mind in history. That's not hyperbole,that's simply lore. Fact. He is well beyond 52k years old,studying hundreds if not thousands of subjects. You're telling me this guy did better? Who the #$$ is he? GOD?!

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

@@alyseleem2692 "Cawl's newest backstory: He is the Machine God." - GW in the future

[@mikhailbychkov5042]

*Oh, ye Omnissiah! My progenoids are ruined! But what if... I were to acquire traitor geneseed and disguise it as Imperial Fists? Hohoho, delightfully devilish, Belisarius!* - Cawl shortly before creating the Sons of the Phoenix, circa M42

[@angelangelis8362]

Mikhail Bychkov Guilliman: Well Cawl, you are a strange one, but you sure do know how to make a good Marine.

[@brambleknight7217]

“Why is there chaos coming out of your neophytes, Cawl”

[@andriuspakulis2948]

Hey, Cawl, why Sons of Phoenics primaris ordered shipment of dragon sized dildos recently?

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

"Cawl, why do the Sons of the Phoenix have this white powdery substance on their faces? Also what happened to those civilians they were assigned to protect recently?

[@Elenrai]

​"Cawl, why are the Sons of the Phoenix dumping dead civilians into a massive pit? Surely servitors and menials can be sent to bury the dead" *24 hours later* "Cawl, why is the pit screaming Fulgrims name?"

[@IdleDrifter]

Games Workshop is just prepping everyone for a long term overhaul on their product for the mythical wider audience. They'll standardize the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines for ease of manufacture. No more unique looking units or at least fewer of them. Hell, they'll do this every single line. If the customers want unique units they'll do it themselves of course. There's also the kinder gentler children's 40k books. Teaming up with Marvel but ultimately, eventually with Disney. Because complex, flawed characters don't sell to little Timmy because his little mind can't handle it. As he is being conditioned and drugged by the education and entertainment systems to be a passive, expendable wage slave consumer of bland goods. It's about trying to make as much money from as wide an audience rather than crafting a science fiction fantasy universe with any care to established lore.

[@elmerjfapp5730]

someone goes on /biz huh

[@woaddragon]

Well I can wait to.see.what you.thinl of.Bandai chibi figures

[@thomasblunt3404]

so basically 40k is going the way of Star Wars.... bland dull and totally boring for those with no imagination.

[@MyRickyjoe]

Good thing I'm just here to listen to stories, you guys are so screwed.

[@samuelrodriguez9801]

We're in The End Game now!

[@jipgaming8089]

"it would be like calling Hiroshima after Little boy a mild case of renovation" Arch 2019

[@dominicomegon4714]

Arch just want's it to be 7th edition until he croaks. Lol

[@thespanishinquisition4078]

@@dominicomegon4714 7th edition was shit, but since then we've only gone downhill, and at a cataclismically high speed to boot. So yeah, currently, 7th is the best we ever got by virtue of being the least smelly turd in the septic tank.

[@SockPupet]

@@dominicomegon4714 I want to go back to 2nd...

[@sololobos6969]

@El Duderino Nice B8 M8...

[@jamesm783]

"allied with the eldar, whilst in the company of the black templars" As an Eldar player, I have a number of problems with this statement

[@BlackTemplar6th]

As a black templar player i have even more problems with that statement.

[@anangrymarine9174]

AAAAAAAAHHHH!!!

[@duffeknol]

All of you should really read the Mechanicus novels by McNeil.

[@requiemaeternam3406]

Even a "codex" marine can't go toe to toe with a BT. To me looked so strange they didn't purge anything just for sake.

[@involuntaryanalysis]

I guess the TTS Vox Cast is canon, then. Big E, and Lord Adorable had a good talk with Chapter Master Helbrecht. By the end he attained something of Rogal Dorn's calm.

[@Jackstalkerfear]

Honestly half of the issue would be solved if the primaris program was a prototype idea the emperor had in the works when they tried the raptor program. Then a Cawl like figure can appear to use it and research it and make the primaris marines. He had to try and turn a prototype into a functional thing. Which while still being overly difficult, would make him seem less BS as the emperor would have done most of the leg work. *EDIT* ARCH SENPAI NOTICED ME!? NANI!?!!!!

[@alganhar1]

Would he have though? A prototype is all very well, but generally the prototype is a very different beast to the mass production model. Sometimes it is cruder, but other times it is actually a superior product. The T-34 is a good example of the latter by the way, the prototyp T-34's were superior in construction in every way to even early war production models, let alone late war production models where the idea of Quality control in the Soviet tank factories was along the lines of if it will last a month or two its good enough. Other good examples are the concept cars you see in car shows, such vehicles will never see production, they are just too *good* to enter production, much of the technology and concepts are too new and untested.... The point is, refining a prototype to the point it can be mass manufactured is often a larger undertaking than coming up with the prototype in the first place, and it is not always about refining the prototype to get it to work, sometimes you literally have to make a worse final product than the prototype due to technology or material constraints....

[@Jackstalkerfear]

@@alganhar1 I can believe prototype more over Cawl improving on the marines in such a short time.

[@baleriontheblackdread6679]

@@Jackstalkerfear "such a short time." 10.000 Years thats short for you?

[@BardicGM]

@@baleriontheblackdread6679 As mentioned in the video, the first founding of Primaris occurred in Millienia 31, so a thousand years with fewer resources and having to do it in secret.

[@MrGrimsmith]

@@alganhar1 I agree in part where mass production is concerned. However, once something has been conceived and created it's not actually that hard to refine it further if you have a certain mindset. Knowing that something *can* be done makes the following steps easier. Is it easy? No. Does it need a genius? No. Merely a particular way of thinking. Making it economical? That's a whole different kettle of fish...

[@gso619]

Silver lining: The mechanicus finally got a named character. And boy what a character he is. The space marines may have 40 000 points worth of named models, each with more ridiculous fluff than the last, but you could take them all, melt them down and cast them into an imperator titan made of pure bullshit and it wouldn't even reach up to Cawl's fucking knee. He is the avatar of plot contrivance, the alpha and omega of Mary Sue. Also, he has better stats than most tanks, which is rather nice. Everybody gangsta till some old guy skitters up to their battleline and starts hitting things at S10.

[@AntonAdelson]

"Imperator Titan made out of pure bullshit" 👌 poetry!

[@scotcheggable]

@Juni Post my preferred theory is that he is a being formed of pure chaos, and the avatar of Malice, sent by the fifth god to aide the emperium in destroying the other gods and the traitor legions once and for all. Because unwittingly, by fighting against chaos, the emperor was feeding the fifth god, and thus earned its blessing. Would explain all the bullshit at least.

[@moderndavinci6599]

"Calling a call to Cawl."

[@calimerohnir3311]

Ah! The famed Primaris Space Marines also known as Ultra-Ultramarines, Space Space Marines, Primarines, NuMarines, Chadmarines, The Greater-est of them all, Adeptus Restartes, Gigglymarines, Super Space Marines, Biglymarines, Big League Marines, Space-marine Space-marine Space-Marines, 8thmarines, Bigmars, Spacesigmarines, Guillimarines, Special Snowflake Marines, Primarysues, Ultra-Ultrasmurfs, Skubmarines, and of course Marines II: Electric Boogaloo

[@Arphalia]

Ty for this, I got some new namesto call these fucks lol

[@anangrymarine9174]

I like Adeptus Restartes

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

I personally prefer Rowboat's nickname of "Cawl's Blasphemous Hordes"

[@DaLkalts]

You forgot Primarysues

[@brigandboy1425]

Adeptus Restartes broke me.

[@KrullMaestaren]

Mc'Guyver is a perpetubal and became later known as Belisarius Cawl. That is why he was able to create the Primaris with a banana peel, chewing gum and a gem. Plot hole fixed 👍

[@michaelm3691]

By 40K standards, Hiroshima was indeed a mild case of renovation

[@Waldherz]

@@PersimmonHurmo That kinda sounds like 40K material.

[@Pogo1991]

Yes... only the soviets... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Plowshare

[@joethesheep4675]

@@PersimmonHurmo bombing channels and the like was all the rage after WW2. We where insanely lucky that there was a huge earthquake near a testsite which could have beeb connected to the explosion so the guys responsible decided it was to big a risk to build that way. Otherwise engineers would have contaminated half the world before they realized the real issue here.

[@Penniwhistle]

"Assholes in odd places..." So Erebus clinging like a leech to every other legion?

[@NewGuy2534]

More like he was talking out of his ass.

[@nooneinparticular5256]

Or just a euphamism for talking out one's ass.

[@john-bt8dp]

erebus did nothing wrong

[@Penniwhistle]

@@john-bt8dp Why can't I downvote you more than once?

[@WamblingPlague5]

@@john-bt8dp *Clears throat* FUCK EREBUS

[@aprendizdefegelein]

"If only Sanguinius was here."-Guilliman von Lohengramm

[@sivartevafal]

“Sanguinius, the only man Guilliman could have trusted with this burden...he too was gone” 😢 Right in my feels.

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

The only son Big E truly loved for he was perfect.

[@Autechltd]

Cawl sounds like an isekai light novel self insert character.

[@skarjj1]

i would not be surprised if he was

[@xc0msoldier566]

Honestly what got me into 40k was how grim dark and against the grain it was when compared to other sci-fi universes, where the good guys always win and have the moral high ground. Maybe one or two side characters die, but the hero’s still win. In 40k, you don’t know who will win, what the cost of winning will be, what happens after victory. Primaris kind of feel like someone in the modeling and lore department was a big fan of Halo and Starcraft and wanted to add that into 40k.

[@ethantaylor9613]

I’m with Seth these aren’t blood angels they’re Ultramarines painted red

[@mattaffenit9898]

As a loyal son of Sanguinius, I agree with this. They are abominations that don't even deserve to wear the red of Baal.

[@callisto1234]

They've started showing signs of something similar to the red thirst though...

[@mattaffenit9898]

@@callisto1234 Barely even a trace of Sanguinius' blood has manifested itself. They remain abominations.

[@phreakazoith2237]

at least those repainted ultrasmurfs go faster

[@mattaffenit9898]

@@phreakazoith2237 So did the originals. In fact, I'd argue that the original Astartes were faster.

[@skepticalsnek9989]

Good thing some of his brothers didn't drink the kool-aid... Dark Angels: "Oh, no, we're not a Legion. It's just that all of our somewhat oversized Chapters answer to a single command staff" Fists: "Oh no, we're not a Legion. We just have a council of successors, and a secret plan to reform a Legion if we feel like it"

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

Meanwhile the Space Wolves can't make successors (until Cawl magicked the Wulfen away that is) so they are explicitly exempt from it and the Salamanders didn't actually break up on the grounds that they didn't have enough Marines left to make successors so they technically aren't bound to it either. Actually, come to think of it, only 5 out of 9 of the Loyalist Legions actually followed the order to break up and reform themselves along Codex lines to the letter. And it turns into 4 out of 9 when you consider the fact that the Ultramarines themselves had an extra company that they didn't tell anyone about, the fact that honor companies exist period, all their 2nd Founding successors are on Macragge's Senate, and that the Ultramarines frequently act like their successors listen to them and obey like it is with the DA and their successors.

[@autumnlotus6250]

Black Templars: we dont have a legion! We have m UK multiple crusades, none of which are over 1000 marines, honest! No we dont have a dossier of these crusades. Why would we? :3

[@wgreenewgreene1022]

@@autumnlotus6250 now would you kindly follow me to the nearest air lock. I assure you the view is nice

[@jagnestormskull3178]

@@elysiankentarchy1531 Well, theoretically, the Space Wolves *can* make successors, they just don't want to because they hate the Codex Astartes. Theoretically, Wulfen wouldn't be a thing on other planets because there are no wolves on Fenris.

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

@@jagnestormskull3178 During the Second Founding the Space Wolves tried to make successors not from Fenris, the Wolf Brothers, and they all, to Leman Russ' horror, quickly degenerated into wulfen (he also gave them half of the Legion's armory). And that put an end to Russ' idea of the Sons of Russ, a lot of chapters created from his line to guard the Eye of Terror and ensure anyone trying to leave it would be absolutely murdered.

[@ElectromagNick]

"How the hell are we gonna justify Guilliman coming back?" "Weren't his wounds healing even while in stasis as though it were a miracle?" "Fuck you, life support power armor!"

[@ZethHolyblade]

Judging from this video I can imagine a scene similar to 'Revenge of the Sith' by the time the other loyalist Primarchs make their return 😂😂😂 Hell even the custodes... _"In the name of our __-Glorious Overlord-__ Father, the Emperor of Mankind... You're under arrest Guilliman"_ _"Are you treatening me Brother/Custodes?"_ _"The Imperium will judge you for this Heresy"_ _"I _*_am_*_ the Imperium"_

[@singletona082]

Arch's Primaris rant. 55 minutes long. I'mma gonna need a bigger tub of popcorn for this.

[@SketchAndEtch]

What I got from this video: "Emperor was a jobber." -Belisarius Cawl

[@colmcorbec7031]

Here we Cawl again

[@dominicomegon4714]

Didn't it take Cawl over 7 thousand years on top of what they already know to make the Primaris? Cawl only stood on the shoulder of the Emperor and did a fantastic job.

[@Archon3960]

_The Mechanicus Approuves !_

[@hotsergiosinyourarea]

Calw me crazy. But is think that you guys are pretty good with the puns thing

[@smilingbandit6900]

Cawl you i will^^

[@alyseleem2692]

@@dominicomegon4714 Simple. How does he get his resources? And where is the Administratum in this? And how does know how to get better Space Marines despite the only suggestion the Emperor ( a 52k year old barely human genius with precognition) is the Raptor project? How did he do it better? Who the #$$ is this guy?

[@claudiotirone8949]

"This undoubtedly makes Guilliman a massive hypocrite and a liar" Ofc it does! He is know as the politician after all.

[@frankg2790]

I hated the Ultramarines before they brought back their Primarch.

[@avengingangel]

To be fair to the Traitor Legions they worked pretty well under the command of the Emperor before their Primarchs were discovered.

[@frankg2790]

I can't deny that.

[@alyseleem2692]

Agreed 👍.

[@bliblivion]

they simply could have used the raptor project as a back story: before their genome was corrupted by the Alpha legion they were SM but faster stronger, quicker to produce. So they could have retry a raptor project using the genetic material located in the labyrinth of the Emperor. but since they wouldn't have the guidance of the Emperor implanted in their memory like for Corax it would take far longer to achieve.

[@BUSSTISEBOOST]

Also too the Gene seed was the same in every Astartes. The only difference being that the new Gene seed increased the rate of which the applicant grew and with minor Strength increase and reflexes. Alpha Legion better be unlimited at this point and should get into contact with the Imperium soon for a good old fashion mind fuckery.

[@Maximum_Bacon]

I have loved Warhammer and 40k for decades. But this recent retcon, re-retcon and just total shit writing has really put me off. Not mention a tiny piece of plastic the costs the same as a decent meal.

[@Zombysushi]

Dude imagine they make the Primaris resistant to the influence of Chaos thus invalidating the entire selection process of the Grey Knights *upside down happy face*

[@darkinnovator2479]

So in short... Guilliman had an idea, shat and Cawl cleaned up everything nice and tidy like a glorified toilet. Ha, just you wait Arch, next GW will be revealing that Cawl was a vat grown Sensei made to purpose by the Second Primarch, who is currently smoking weed in some secret hole in the South Pole of Terra as the Grand Master of the Inquisition!

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

Well Cawl is basically a bio-monstrosity made up of dozens of souls. The weirdest thing is that Emps was somehow able to to "see" and communicate with Cawl before he even was even "created" by just coming into contact with 1 of the souls/minds that makes up Cawl. Mind you that the souls/minds that make up Cawl were only fused after the Heresy... which the Emps was supposedly not previously able to see past because of chaos. So there are some interesting implications there I guess.

[@diegicast]

I love tour plot twist

[@darkinnovator2479]

@@constrainedanacronysm1370 Maybe a bit of the Emperor's soul got in there too, it would have been a good angle to how and why he created the Primaris that he was essentially retracing the steps the Emperor had made anyway.

[@darkinnovator2479]

@@diegicast I absolutely love the concept of the Lost Primarchs, my long idea was that the Second was crafted (bit like the Lizardmen) to be a weapon against Chaos, and his flawed gene-seed was later refined into the Gray Knights Gene-seed.

[@lamb_link]

Dark Innovator Ah yes the long redacted 2nd primarch, leader of the great Legion Herb Smokers and second only to Angron in disappointing his father. I hear that he’s a professional snowboarder now. Good guy that Shaunius white.

[@CommisarHood]

I love the idea of some of these guys showing up on Fenris claiming to be Space Wolves and the old wolf ordering them thrown off a cliff while he makes a very angry call to MaCragge.

[@lordfrostwind3151]

Roboute: “I'm not sure I can trust my brothers with the ability to reform their legions." Dark Angels and Imperial Fists *whistle nervously* Space Wolves: “Screw that business you blonde twat."

[@RikkiSan1]

They could have written the Primaris Marines as being a late experiment of the Emperor trying to improve on the Space Marines as he realized that they had severe flaws and could fall to chaos. Maybe he went about making blueprints or even having a few prototypes running around but then the Horus heresy happened and he had to seal up those plans and let's say in the event of his death he entrusted those plans with one of his loyal sons in this case Guilliman for him to implement in the future. So in that case when guilliman woke up with the help of cawl they started producing primaris Marines from that very moment and started to send them throughout the Galaxy. Not a perfect story but I think it's better than just saying oh Cawl is just super smart and he made better Space Marines and somehow they ended up all across the Galaxy

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

I mean took him 10k years to do it i can accept that part

[@Unforgiven-0ne]

What no one knew, is the Alpha Legion watched the whole process secretly and actually made their own millions of chaos super smurfs so that they could counter the good super smurfs. On a side note, wouldn't improving upon the Emperor's work be considered a Heresy in and of itself? I mean the space wolves should be hunting down and killing every one of the super smurfs.

[@MrFallenone]

You changed a light bulb 0.0001 second faster than it took the Emperor. HERETIC ! You forget that Space Marines do not worship the Emperor as a God. Because they know he hates that shit.

[@RedDeadUndead1]

@@MrFallenone Note: not ALL Space Marines worship the Emperor as a god the prime example are the religious zealots of the Black Templars.

[@ZenStrive52]

Alpha Legion are loyalist

[@Xo-3130]

Depends. Some of the alpha legion are just Renegades, some are chaos worshippers and others are loyal to the Emperor and not the imperium.

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

@@RedDeadUndead1 The Black Templars' High Chaplain, Grimaldus, point blank said that his chapter does not worship the Emperor as a god in Blood and Fire.

[@koenvandamme6901]

Guys, guys, guys! I've got it! A guy who has seemingly infinite resources, achieves things in impossible timeframes and yet manages to keep everything secret? He's clearly Earth's Santa Claus!

[@frankg2790]

Wouldn't be surprised, considering how much of a Mary Sue he is.

[@Venneroth]

...Well that explains the red outfit.

[@ReformedSooner24]

The warp IS involved and time behaves strange there...hmm....

[@eyez274]

isn't that Santa Grimnar?

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

Why would a biological immortal turn to the omnissiah? Seems kinda redundant at that point.

[@Keln02]

GW pulled them out of their magic bag that goes against everything the imperium stands for xD Innovation, new doctrines, etc etc etc

[@robertnelson9599]

Religion is full of hypocrisy, and the Imperium of 40K is a religious state... Edit: This is an excuse for in-universe, GW could have done a better job with the Primaris Marines.

[@Turamwdd]

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with changes happening. It is interesting to finally see them advance 40k lore.

[@imerror6224]

Isn't there a race of blue communists that really like innovation and progress? Why don't they do something with them?

[@wookiewithacookie6905]

@@Turamwdd I have nothing against the idea of Primaris (even if the in lore reason is a bit shitty) but I'm not a fan of the tact-icool look. Space marines have always been warrior monks/Knights in space and I love that look of them.

[@s0515033]

Well, Guilliman is back and he's a relic from a time of reason, progress. So it makes sense he doesn't really give a shit. He's openly stated in the novels that he doesn't like the way the Imperium is and he's not afraid to shake stuff up a bit. I kinda like the change in direction and I hope we see some story progression on it.

[@TheGouliat]

This is what you get when you dont Progress from Lore and Logic Standpoint but from a Pure marketing Standpoint. Get us something diffrent we can sell, then create a reason we can blend out the old stuff so everyone have to buy the new stuff at some Point. And we need that now to get my bonus, so, come up with an explanation quickly. Taddaaaa, Primaris marines.

[@MizantropMan]

An hour of Arch talking, exactly what I need as a background for perfecting my art.

[@robertnelson9599]

What kind of art?

[@catgang6936]

Work on your art

[@MizantropMan]

@@robertnelson9599 Digital design and painting ork boyz. One is for business, one is for fun.

[@callisto1234]

Belisarius Cawl was not alone though, he had the "cawl inferior", that gestalt of hundreds of brains working as one. In dark imperium he states that he used that in conjunction to his own mind to have the brain power to do complete the primaris project, now how was he even able to do the new armor and primaris improvements in this short amount of time ( you said 800 years). Well it might not be as hard as you might think, though that isn't to say that it was a damn monumental undertaking. Lets start with the primaris biology. Cawl did not start from scratch that's for damn sure, he already had the template of the regular space marines and whatever information was left on the raptors, more importantly, he had the backing and seal from a fucking primarch, a being directly below in authority to the Emperor of mankind. That would open pretty much any door for him to plunder and analyse archaic data on the creation of the space marines, he, much like fabius bile had to first understand the gene-seed before making any modifications to it. The advantage Cawl has over Fabius bile is that he can ( thanks to the cawl inferior) actually undertake many complex projects at once, this combined with the knowledge he already had would make it feasible for him to create the primaris in that time span. The armor is simpler by far, nowadays making good armor is made by statistics and ballistic tests, example: 15% of deaths are are due to bullet penetration in the area where the gorget is, therefore this area needs to be reinforced. The design of an armor is modified to reduce the risk of injury of its wearer by modifying parts where other people had died, this is much easier to do than geneseed study. Just number crunching, statistics and trial and error, this might also explain the modification to the vox grill part, a structural weakness in the overall protection of the helmet. Furthermore, Cawl was alive during the great crusade, a period of time when power armors were actually being modified frequently, so him knowing how to actually properly modify a suit of power armor isn't even a surprise. The materiel question isn't that complex either, again explained by his backing, which is to say Guilliman. Show a primarchs seal to a mining world and tell them that you need say a small 5% of their yield, an amount that wouldn't be outrageous. Do the same thing in 6 or 7 other worlds and you've got the amount you need for your experiments. Building isn't a problem either since servitors exist, also criminals and such can also be taken as workers, then when the work is complete, kill them all and throw them into the sun, there, problem solved, nothing of worth was lost. Using a mechanized assembly line and his mechanicum allies to manufacture his new patterns of armor and weapons isn't unfeasible either i think. This brings us to another point, Cawl isn't stricly by himself in all this, he has allies in the mechanicum, according to Dark imperium, his faction are a group of adepts and others that also believe in progress, the original intent of the emperor, they want to overturn this present regime of stagnation just like cawl. So the man isn't entirely without support, it seems there's enough of them to start a civil war too (which Guilliman absolutely wants to avoid). About their acceptance and how it actually worked out...or not. The blood angels accepted them i think mostly because of their current circumstance of being mostly nom'ed up by the nids and because of Chapter Master Dante being a fairly damn reasonable guy for a space marine. Other chapters accepted for one reason alone, shock value. A primarch, a legendary being from the history of the imperium came out drove away the heretic, the alien and the witch and says that he wants to save the imperium, even space marines aren't immune to that effect. Also, being the regent of terra helps, as he basically forced every chapter to accept this or they would be considered rebels, considering all the firepower guilliman has at his disposal, the old maxim " It's better to be polite and have a gun then to just be polite" applies shockingly well here. Since there was no other primarchs to oppose him, most chapters fell in line but they weren't all happy about it. The Space wolves were pretty weary of the primaris until they gave them trials that proved their worth, the Dark angels simply paid "lip service" to Guilliman and keeps their primaris units well separated from their regular forces and obviously don't share their secrets. Finally, about the flaws. Corbulo the apothecary of the Blood angels noticed some primaris battle brothers went absolutely apeshit during a fight against the alpha legion, inflicting such gruesome violence upon the traitors that you might think they were flesh-tearers... Here's my theory. The flaw have yet to manifest, Cawl had access to the purest possible geneseed, the oldest geneseed in fact, In the "Fear to tread" book, Sanguinius explains that the flaw (red thirst) was actually pretty rare at first, only a small number in a few hundred years, but that he feared that eventually it would affect more and more of his sons, furthermore, we learn in "Dante" that the red thirst is sympathetic, when one blood angel feels it, others start feeling it too. The blood angels primaris HAD NO CONTACT WITH ANY CHAPTER OF THE BLOOD UNTIL THEY MET WITH THE BLOOD ANGELS ON BAAL, since every chapter of the blood were currently fighting tyranids, which means that, considering the information we possess about the red thirst, it makes since for them to not have the red thirst, or at least THINK that they don't have it. The absence of "The black rage" on the other hand can be explained again by the geneseed used, the purest geneseed that was kept in stasis and probably hidden away, the owners of said geneseed weren't present or even alive when Sanguinius died, so its possible that the black rage is absent from the primaris entirely but it's too early to say.

[@finlayames6216]

Tertium I just can’t believe the emperor dam inquisition never noticed that all this material was disappearing with no visible results and started poking around. Cawl may have had permission from a primarch but they have the emperors so would have been able to call rank and if cawl didn’t show them then he’d be branded a traitor. Also if he had the backing of even a small group of people on mars I’m sure either the mechanicum or inquisition would keep an eye of them to make sure they weren’t heretics, tech ones or more traditional

[@callisto1234]

@@finlayames6216 Oh yes, sorry, i totally forgot to address this in my original comment. How did belisarius Cawl Kept all of this shit hidden?! Well that's hard and easy at the same time. It's hard because the inquisition and mechanicum are quite nosy little fuckers now aren't they? they gotta know everything and investigate everyone, so how does our resident revolutionary deal with this? Here comes the easy part, the imperium is a big place, and i mean a REALLY big place. its easy to dismiss the sheer size of it since conflicts are usually limited to a planet or a system, but space is fucking immense and the inquisition isnt infallible nor have they eyes behind their backs. hiding something from them is hard, but not impossible... Lemme tell you, Belisarius is very and i mean VERY paranoid. I don't have an exerpt ( you can probably find it in the r/40kLore subreddit), but in Dark imperium, just to speak to The Cawl inferior, Guilliman had to go through a plethora of security measures, most of which he did not know how to pass if he were to try and break in. Now this part is just my speculation but i believe that he used his status as being a member of the mechanicum as a kind of loophole to investigation, even the inquisition has a hard time getting anything from those guys, so him just saying "mechanicum business" might have been enough for the more casul inquisitors. For the more insistent ones, well... he seems to like mind wipes and isn't beyond bloodying his hands to keep a secret, inquisitors die all the time and sometimes they're never found, he or an ally could just tell the inquisition "hey we found this bloke dead near our spot, he seemed to have been attacked by a xenos force, we tried to help but we were too late" then point them in the direction of the supposed xenos...problem solved, its also probable that some "accidents" might have happened to inquisitors wanting to visit his facilities, and over time, the inquisition took the hint to not fuck around with this guy, that's what happened to the dark angels, and the blood angels have kept their taint hidden from even the inquisiton for 10k years. Never underestimate the power of lies my friends. Inquisitor: "sir why is your facility emanating massive amounts of energy?" Cawl: " we're testing a prototype Nova cannon, now fuck off unless you want a close look at the barrel of the cannon" .

[@vladdrugal6580]

@@callisto1234 The inquistion basically has no authority over the Mechanicus due to the fact that the Mechanicus basically self regulates itself. From my understanding the Inquistion will only go so far as to say to the local Archmagos " Hey... we think he have this intelligence about this asshole doing something wrong.... you waste your resources on figuring that out while we go and deal with something else " before flying off in this big fuck off ships to go murder a mutant child or something.

[@TheEldritchGod]

@@callisto1234 Well thought out. My only objection is, Stop Writing for the Author. That's his job and he's not doing it well.

[@callisto1234]

@@TheEldritchGod These are just logical conclusions that I came to after reading some books and dabbling in the 40KLore subreddit, The author might decide to just say "warp fuckery" and solve the problem like that >.< . I hate warp fuckery....

[@Munich22100]

The only good thing is that there using traitor geneseed.

[@munker2477]

They´re*

[@nialpollitt3410]

They'r'rum'bumhole*

[@robertnelson9599]

I like that it is implied but never proven at all.

[@Lorian667]

@@robertnelson9599 Orimaris Chapter "Children of the Phoenix" colored in Purple, white and gold.. coincidence? I think not. Source: Vigilus book.

[@robertnelson9599]

@@Lorian667 Again, implied. There are chapters whose name has no correlation to their parent chapter.

[@PinkBroBlueRope]

i was honestly taken aback by how readily and unquestioningly the community accepted primaris marines. I guess "the armour looks cool!!!!" is enough for some people

[@torbk]

I haven't accepted them, not even now. I haven't bought a single model since before the entire heresy launched. As far as I am concerned the retcon version of the 13th Black Crusade is still the thing and the fall of Cadia never happened. Cawl is a figment of the demented mind and Primaris a mistake.

[@moeleicester9179]

I spat it out as if I was allergic to it, the very second I had heard about this reheated turd. For me, 40K ends at the end of M41 and GW can feck reet off

[@GitGudFox]

@@torbk I got out of the 40k hobby altogether once I understood what Primaris were, and I eventually used this video to get many, many of my friends out of 40k as well. The enemy is GW. The only way to fight GW is to stop being their customer. The Primaris and WH+ are simply the breaking point. Perhaps GW will be able to replace oldguard fans with bugman nufans in the same way that they are replacing the 1st born with Primaris. If that's the case, fine, so be it. My hands are clean of this heresy though, and I have saved many people along the way.

[@demoulius1529]

@@torbk they are a joy to paint. But I noticed that the people who most readily accepted them are the kinds of players who have flavour of the month armies. Im generalizing ofcourse but thats what happened in my local game store.

[@zanard33]

4 years on, still haven't accepted them.

[@thegoatman9231]

I want this to be a thing, where Guilliman refers to himself in 3rd person when he monologues or thinks to himself

[@comradeweismann6947]

Once again I, Rowboat Girlyman has returned to the Imperium and I, Rowboat Girlyman, will save the Galaxy from all the chaos and suffering, because I, Rowboat Girlyman, am the master of macragge, primarch of the Ultramarines, Son of the Emperor of Mankind, Lord Commander of Imperium and no foul chaos spawn could ever match my legendary plot armour skills!

[@warden-1894]

@@comradeweismann6947 Ah. So THAT'S where Cato Sicarius got it from!

[@jakefrost7404]

*_The geneseed requirements alone would have made Cawl the biggest target in the Segmentum, if not the entire galaxy._*

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

Right? The forces of chaos just sort of let him build up millions of marines over 10,000 years, no problem? Not an alpha legion raid or some dumb warp portal opening up to steal some geneseed? Nothing?

[@dominicomegon4714]

Primaris is an ass pull. But then again, they might be ramping up to something really, really big.

[@xiriusthesoulwatcher3955]

It being "big" doesnt mean its good. And being precluded by something bad is just... A bad sign

[@dominicomegon4714]

@@xiriusthesoulwatcher3955 "big" doesn't mean "bad" either. I think you underestimate what a Mechanicum Genius can do with over 10k+ years of experimenting and planning with The Imperium's Lord Commader's blessing with the High Lords of Terra in on it.

[@dominicomegon4714]

@@xiriusthesoulwatcher3955 archwarhammer is being a bit click bait'ish these days.

[@James-sk4db]

Unironically using newfag outside of the chans? someone’s edgy

[@xiriusthesoulwatcher3955]

@@James-sk4db ah yes, lets pile on the terms instead of what is actually being said. That will leave the impression that you're here to argue and not just to stir shit up

[@breonwogan15]

I feel like GW have written themselves into a corner with the new space marines. They should have been just proper scale space marine models instead of brand new super super marines. Hopefully they'll do a bit of rethinking/retcon.

[@kyle857]

This!

[@JuniperArt98]

I was truly hoping that the Primaris marines would end up being no where near as "perfect" as they were first shown, maybe having some kind of expiration date where they'd start to get ill or frail.

[@alyseleem2692]

Agreed 👍. They need a restart.

[@Godzillafan-tv1ks]

They still might. Remember, as of current timeline it’s been what? Barely half a century since the plague wars? Flaws often take multiple centuries to manifest. The red thirst often takes a while to appear. Oh and they can be corrupted.

[@narusawa74]

Wait for order 66 and you'll see they're not perfect....Cawl having diddled with chaos can't flip his coat that easily without a speck of chaos in his work....Guilly Boy ( writers) was mad to use him for such job.

[@JuniperArt98]

Absolutely no way, it is much too late. Primaris, Cawl, all of the recent lore has done far too much damage. @@narusawa74

[@DeHerg]

So papa smurf: during the Horus Heresy - established the Imperium secundus while Terra was still around - diverted troop movements to shore up said Imperium secundus instead of Terra after the Heresy - established for himself an office that was the imperator in everything but name - used political sway(of his new office) to force his brothers to split up the legions arguing this would be too much power for one person to hold - established a fighting force arguably stronger than even the legions were, only he knew about (funneling away vast amounts of imperial resources to do so) ein Schelm wer da böses denkt

[@RevanR]

I'm into 40k since 8th edition, but here are GW need to do when they introducing primaris marines : - Forshadowing primaris marines since 7th edition - Cawl as mysterious tech priest without background that developing primaris marines on Emperor's order - Instead Guilliman resurrection, just using great rift as the event that force Cawl to release Primaris Marines - Guilliman forced to adopt Primaris marines under Emperor's order - Primaris marines is its own chapter instead reinforcing old space marines, - Primaris marines face scrunity from *ALL* firstborn space marines especially those with traitor geneseed - Primaris marines with traitor geneseed is allowed but they must do endless redemption crusade in isolated dark imperium - Guilliman returns is triggered by destruction of Ultramar Realm and the Ultramarines, and seeing primaris marines as replacement that he don't want. -... Please add more

[@OurLadyOfPunkz]

I'd say that the Inquisition would have something to say about that.

[@lordfrostwind3151]

I actually think it would be better if the Primaris were developed by Fabius Bile and were stolen or possibly the Imperium bartered with him in a desperate situation like during the Tyranid Invasions for new, rapidly built space marines to replace their horrific losses. Once the crisis was over Cawl was placed in charge of monitoring and keeping them ready for battle, but also watching for mutations or corruption. Cawl, so inspired by Bile's work and how effective they were leaves the dogma of the Mechanicus and becomes in essence a loyalist heretek. Guilliman upon taking power finds out about the Primaris and almost orders then destroyed as abominations, but realizing that they can't afford to not use the millions of ready and armed space marines reluctantly orders them woken up.

[@couldnotfindcoolname]

primaris armor looks like it was made by tau's. I think Cawl's got some explaining to do.

[@peterkeyes1814]

They do have the stink of Xenos tech about them.

[@Barabel22]

Frankly with the way the galaxy is going.....who gives a shit if it’s xeno tech. The IoM needs to get up off its high horse and see that they’re fucked unless compromise is made.

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

Cawl has been suspected of using Necron and Tau tech to improve the Imperium's arsenal Granted there are alreast a few Forgeworlds that do the same thing as Cawl and are in better standing then him politically. *Cough Stygies VIII* *Cough Eldar Tech.*

[@Delta-es1lg]

Does it really look like Tau? It looks like a normal progression of Space Marine armor to me.

[@couldnotfindcoolname]

seems some people need to be visited by their friendly neighborhood inquisitor..

[@TF1990]

I have waited for so long, even though I admit wanted you to rant like when you ranted about Endtimes and Age of Sigmar

[@Reynevan100]

New tech, new doctrines, progress?Did GW forget they are making Warhammer 40k and not Star Trek fanfic?

[@blindlobster]

A "new" crew of people writing the fluff. The crew were doing such a bad job that eventually the writers refused to put their own names in their codexes, (or army books)

[@DarkCT]

they are trying to throw a sheet of likely how Cawl and Gulliman tries to see thigns different from the imperium we are use to. and they are right they would.. but one characters a complete asspull here.

[@s0515033]

But it totally fits with the personality and beliefs of Guilliman, who comes from a different era. I like where the story is going, atm. The same thing gets boring after a while with complete stagnation and nothing changing in the universe.

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

@@blindlobster I thought the reason why the writers names were no longer put on the Codexes was because of the massive backlash towards almost everything Matt Ward wrote.

[@blindlobster]

@@elysiankentarchy1531 Although Matt Ward was one of the leaders of the new crew, there were other members who didn't want to become Matt Ward 2.0. It was unfortunate that people were so hard on Matt Ward, but the distaste (not the disrespect) was warranted. People tend to forget that Matt Ward was writing in the earlier Codexes and Army books long before he became "the boss" of it. He previously wrote in "Additional Material" and there were no complains then. Let's be frank, Matt Ward can do a good job, but mainly when he is supervised.

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

13:00 there were two very easy ways to fix this. 1) have Cawl just be a random Tech Magos who discovered a Raptor machine in the depths of Mars. During the Martian civil war, and have Guiliman meet with him whilst his brothers went on the scouring. Or 2) literally just make it MK9 power armor, invented by an up an coming Robodude named Cawl.

[@Azazreal]

30k : Praise the Emperor! 40k : Praise the God Emperor! 41k : What has he done for us lately?

[@joethesheep4675]

Just imagine, for a second Belesarius Cawl would have fallen to chaos. Why exactly did Guilliman split up the legions, again?

[@redheadtiger80]

Good Lord Cawl is the biggest Mary Sue I have heard of in quite some time.

[@MindlessWarlok]

I still think they should be thunder warriors, as in crawl found Big E's TW notes, and just pulled everything he said out of his mechanical ass

[@BigBroTejano]

Aren't the Thunder-Warriors actually more powerful soldiers than the modern Space Marines?... there just also less stable... hence why the Emperor tuned down the Space Marines in order to try and fix the stability problem of their Thunder-Warrior forefathers.

[@MindlessWarlok]

@@BigBroTejano Yes, it'd make perfect sense if cawl just stumbled into it renamed it and hoped to the emperor that they dont go crazy.

[@theenchantedstorm1878]

That would be interesting, actually.... Bigger, yet short lived space marines that can go crazy?

[@adamduffield7782]

@@lostalone9320 so thunder warriors are short lived compared to astartes, that you can just hurl at the enemy as cannon fodder as astartes are too valuable to throw into suicide type situations ?? Arent you just describing the imperial guard ????

[@LouiseTheBeaverWarrior]

@@lostalone9320 astartes are literally just toned down and more stable thunder warriors thus allowing for COMPARATIVELY mass production.

[@wilsthelimit]

I like to think that Cawl didn’t just come up with the Primaris marines out of nowhere but instead found a pet project of the emperors

[@Juggernautdemon]

Belisarius Cawl is my favorite 40k character. Also, it wasn’t literally just Cawl by himself, it was Cawl’s ever growing faction of tech priests that are tired of stagnation and such.

[@MrFallenone]

10 000 years is a long time of relying on that one old coffee machine... that you have to pray to before it even starts :D

[@robertnelson9599]

True, Cawl was never alone, but he had to be careful as getting found out would have lead to his immediate execution.

[@sirpieman300]

He also had the massive fuck of space ship/ laboratory! And just because it was a secret mission doesn't mean he didn't also have the ability to take/ request anything he needs from the imperium. He just shows them his special badge, papers, seal or heck special all-access no question asked without a blaming god-emperor Imperial approved credit card!

[@finlayames6216]

sirpieman300 I feel like the inquisition would get a tad curious about the sheer amount of stuff he’d be asking for, for so long and with no public results. Almost like he was building a secret army to overthrow, I mean save, the imperium. We all know how they do enjoy finding traitors and heretics even when there aren’t any

[@ZenStrive52]

Also plenty of help from Alpha Legion

[@Harabaz726]

Primaris Marines: good concept, bad execution. All the hallmarks of GW's handiwork

[@squigin3380]

I realized the other day when looking at the Primaris super heavy tank that they honestly kind of look star crafty.

[@makebritaingreatagain2613]

Cawl being outwardly rigid in following the rules is exactly what he would do if he was bending then behind the scenes.

[@ramenoodle7853]

"you were right daddy blue, the galaxy's been split in bloody two!"

[@alyseleem2692]

Why am I singing this?

[@ThomasTee]

Alternate Title: When Marty Stue got outstued by Marty Stue Jr.

[@Archon3960]

THAT WAS MATT WARD, GODSDAMMIT !!

[@Raygun9000]

I could be happy with cawl if he's a kind of living saint. Or a puppet controlled by the golden throne.

[@Pubturtle]

Raygun9000 I’ve thought that. Maybe the emperor has possessed or is in some way guiding him in order to correct the mistakes of the past.

[@revcrussell]

Unless the emperor was guiding Cawl, everything he did was heresy.

[@tbone9474]

I ignore the existence of the primaris in the universe. Even my RPG sessions I play I dont even mention them

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

Sounds like a wise policy.

[@LouiseTheBeaverWarrior]

I do this but also with other overpoered factions like custodes, grey knights, and the deathwatch. They just don't make any sense from a narrative standpoint to me. Except maybe deathwatch, but I just don't like them.

[@tbone9474]

@@LouiseTheBeaverWarrior I give deathwatch a free pass as I like the concept but yeah the Grey knights are Gary stues for no reason

[@LouiseTheBeaverWarrior]

@@tbone9474 why the fuck did I just notice that your T-bone from swat kats? I fucking loved swat kats. I just started rewatching it on prime today. And yet I didn't notice your name or pfp? I'm so dumb.

[@KC-kl6qc]

I can imagine the whole 'Primaris Marines taking over the Astartes' thing leading up to some sort of civil war within the Imperium, where the OG marines rebel against the Primaris. We've even got a champion, of sorts, with the Flesh Tearers chapter master Gabriel Seth, who REALLY hates the primaris marines and likens the blood angel primaris to 'Ultramarines in red armour'. I understand that some people would be upset by the idea of the OG marines getting killed off, but I think that would be a very ballsy move for GW to make, and it would allow the OG marines to go out in one last blaze of glory rather than getting slooowly erased over time until there's none left. Just a thought.

[@redtormaximo5530]

Thunder Warriors 2.0

[@KC-kl6qc]

@@redtormaximo5530 In a way, yeah.

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

I think the reactions of the different chapters to the Primaris has been the most interesting thing to watch. The OG Scythes of the Emperor embracing the Primaris because the Genestealers and Tyranids doomed their genetic line. Then going out in a blaze of glory in knowledge someone cares enough to take up their legacy. The Nova Marines struggling to explain their traditions and empathize with the Primaris Marines that joined them. As well as the Primaris who are immensely disappointed they don't get to join the founding chapters that they grew up idolizing and instead have to settle for new chapters or serving under successors. There us too little being written about negative culture clashes though like Arch mentioned. Hopefully more authors address the many Gabriel Seth types that should be out there being grumpy about this. It doesn't have to cause civil wars, maybe just the OG marines growing to respect them or something.

[@Gozokukolat]

Well I stopped buying GW models back when 5th was still in full swing. So I guess I'll just stop playing 40k all together if they delete REAL Space Marines.

[@amonkeigh4970]

@@redtormaximo5530 ehhh except the OG marines arnt being rounded up and culled en mass, heck they arnt even being given all the shit suicide jobs, and apart from the fresh primaris skipping the scouts and joining straight into active squads they are not getting preferential treatment in the chapters in which they join, the old command structure stays in place and they are "brothers" like any other. The OG marines have had thier service and sacrifice to the imperium honoured, they havnt been cast aside like trash.

[@kenspiracy2792]

"...there isn't exactly 'Fist' in that Marine" Well if he's a son of Fulgrim there is..

[@ODDnanref]

I think there is Gist there, just not the one you think and not where you think it should be.

[@jamesclarke5331]

The primaris marines lore summed up in 3 words. "But hey... details"

[@MRx36000]

A 53min video on the primaries?! Holy moly, Im gonna lay down and enjoy this!! xD

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

I was the one who made the Superchat Arch mentioned about Cawl's soul being a "Peephole" for the Emperor. There are a few portions of the "Great Work" book where the Emperor addresses one of the souls/minds that makes up Cawl. In the first Emps addresses the soul by the name Cawl. This gets a bit weird because Cawl as a being was not created until after the heresy and the Emperors death... and the Emperor is not supposed to be able to really see things past his death or the end of heresy. Yet he is able recognize the soul which will become part part of Cawl and identify and accurately name him as someone who will be "Cawl." Emps also waxes on about how even he is at the mercy of time when "not-yet" Cawl addresses his omniscience. Emps then gives "not-yet" Cawl a prophecy that by it's very nature has to happen after the Heresy. "There will come a time where you think you have betrayed me, but you will have not." All this may have the implication that the composite nature of Cawl's soul either somehow allows the Emperor to either glimpse passed the chaos fog or predict and influence Cawl's future. Of course the remembering of these interactions with the Emperor was induced by a Greater C'tan Shard/Xenos device so it may not be fully reliable information.

[@somerandomguyfromthebeyond1821]

"...it may not be fully reliable information. " kinda sums up Cawls fluff in general...

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

@@somerandomguyfromthebeyond1821 Guy Haley's book "The Great Work" probably has done the best job of salvaging his fluff. I just wish GW would have led with a character series on Cawl and Gulliman instead of relegating those important characters and plotlines to 2-3 years after the damage has been done. They really dropped the ball.

[@somerandomguyfromthebeyond1821]

@@constrainedanacronysm1370 tbh GW has been very bi-polar with there lore writing for the past few years

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

There will come a time where you think you have betrayed me, but you will have not. -Emps to Cawl "The Greatwork" The Greatwork makes Cawl a much better character, but it does have some weird parts to it.

[@youtubevoice1050]

The Emperor started from nothing, that's why it took him so long. Only when he conquered the gene-cults on the moon was he able to speed up his work. The Astartes were not the pinnacle of his work, they were mass products. So, it's not that surprising to me, that Cawl was able to improve on them. It didn't take Corax long to achieve that and Fabius Bile had also been experimenting successfully on his own (depending on the point of view). A proper mechanicus adept can certainly achieve something within 800 years, that's not hard to believe. The sheer numbers may be a different point, but surely Guilliman must have provided Cawl with resources.

[@youtubevoice1050]

@Joseph Ellis. Yeah, his logic chip seems to turn off whenever the word primaris is mentioned, lol.

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

Also in the "Great Work" Cawl book its heavily implied he inherited a bunch of resources from the scientists who created the Space Marines along with Emps. Even before he met Gulliman.

[@youtubevoice1050]

@Constrained Anacronism. Good point. That increases the likelihood of success tenfold.

[@shaunkimmitt8647]

Let’s see…do we go with: 1) Deus Ex Mechanicus 2) Belisarius Ex Machina 3) Deus Ex Cawl

[@Julez60]

After reading the book I felt like Cawl is the Rick Sanchez of 40k. And I was strangely ok with that lol.

[@brightblue6184]

"I'm pickle-Cawl!"

[@Julez60]

@@lamb_link LMAOO!!!

[@lordfrostwind3151]

I think Fabius Bile will always be the Rick Sanchez of 40K, but Cawl is close. Those two would be good friends, they should swap notes and experiment victims sometime

[@barrybend7189]

@@lordfrostwind3151 who said Bile is a secret loyalist.

[@robertnelson9599]

@@lordfrostwind3151 Bile seems like the kind of guy who would invade Cawl's laboratory and kidnap him just have a nice chat. Then torture him for the secrets of how to make Primaris Marines.

[@starbound100]

I'm still waiting for a primaris centurion. "You've heard of space marines inside space marines. Now, from the same people who penned such masterpieces such as The Gathering Storm: Space Marines inside Space Marines inside Space Marines!" Or alternatively "Oooops! All Space Marines!".

[@honestkyn718]

I have to admit, they've grown on me over time...

[@randomcenturion7264]

Same. I've grown particularly fond of the Agressors and Reivers. Plenty of shooty and stabby.

[@Khobotov]

Like cancer

[@jonniezodiac]

@@randomcenturion7264 aggressors is okay, plus the burny burny version is quite fun

[@honestkyn718]

@@randomcenturion7264 I enjoy reviers

[@lamb_link]

I mean same but... Come on my guy there has to be some chaos fuckery going on here. One of them is legitimately called “sons of the Phoenix” they practically have emperors children written on their asses! That’s not safe.

[@ВасилийМорозов-л7х]

Well, maybe Cawl is the real person behind the Alpha Legion? Like all of these plans inside plans, mindblowing contigencies and hiding everything in plain sight... And the Alpha Legion already has some experience with experimental marine-making technology (the Raven Guard's Raptors).

[@osvaldojaviergalleguillosh8402]

All primaris making an star wars Order meme would be actually super funny, like a moment in wich an inquisitor discovers something occult and Bam! An entire new enemy appears

[@Rawkit_Surgeon]

Just finished the book. My reaction: You're doing what in the Pharos!? WTF Cawl!!

[@LAOK242]

"Attached a couple of jumper cables to Big G's nipples." Is easly one of the top 5 best lines I've heard in my life. That image will now be forever burned into my memory when thinking about that mess. Gj Arch, you just made the GS 10 times better.x)

[@Czar_B]

The primairis are just like the clones in starwars. Just think about it.

[@bobmilaplace3816]

But the Clones were LOYAL to the Emperor not their Psyker Generals and purged them during the Jedi Heresy.

[@Czar_B]

@@bobmilaplace3816 I mean that a gigantic army with all support items could be created without the knowlage of anybody importent. Praise the emperor ofcourse too

[@Czar_B]

Well thet didnt start as complete armies with space ships, tanks, etc. And the emperor was working on them useing all his resourses. Its a suprise for the enemy not the emperor. The clones where a suprise for everybody and had all ships etc ready. Nobody noticed the resourse usage and that is the same for the primairis.

[@MC-pt8kv]

@Schandoro07 I think the point is more that thr audience didn't have any idea. They serve the same purpose and were just dumped on us the same way the clone wars were.

[@MC-pt8kv]

@Schandoro07 I don't think it's always as hamfisted and on the same scale though. Like they literally ripped off the clone army and gave us middle marines. I actually like Primaris but their utterly ridiculous entry into the world was just so poorly done it's a shame. There are so many ways they could have done it without resorting to secret clone army.

[@saulschimek7680]

I tend to see it a bit more like this when Guilliman met Cawl. Cawl was one he could trust to get the job done and The Emperor had his Primaris upgrade package actually ready to go before the Heresy broke out, but never got around to fiddling with it. Emps's died, Guilliman found out about it, and tasked Cawl to work on it, with most of the leg work done already done. That would give him time to work on the various armaments and the MK X armor package

[@Louse1021]

Dude your vastly underestimating the golden skeleton. Thunder warriors, and astarties were EASY for him, the castodies were the ones that the emporer was proud of, the ones that he kept by his side to remind everyone just how much of a difference in power he wielded. Cawl couldnt even come close to doing better than the emporer from scratch, let alone create a primarch, (not a clone, thats cheating). And lets be honest, he did cheat, he had sooo much help in the way of not starting from scratch, he likely stole 85% of his primaris process from the remains of old gene seed, and on top of that having ANY anount of the emporers research notes is obviously going to speed along the process. In my opinion until cawl can create soldiers like the castodies, your claims of him outdoing the emporer fall quite flat sir.

[@Louse1021]

I think Cawl is dope, hes a genius that body hops his way through time and what he was able to do with improving upon the emporer' design slightly is a feat to be reckoned. I just think that he wouldn't have been able to do what he did if the emporer hadn't layd the ground work. And the Emporer has proven that he could do much better (Primarch').

[@josephellis8501]

@Daniel Drew He stole knowledge to make the primarchs, not the marines. Said marines were also rushed like the Great Crusade, they weren't his best work.

[@honorguard7616]

Engineers: "Good enough is perfect"

[@kilmindaro3]

Belisarius Cawl: UNDER BUDGET and AHEAD OF SCHEDULE

[@Szminsky]

But to be fair. Cawl didn’t create the Marines “better”. He just improved on an existing design. The emperor discovered “fire”, Cawl used this knowledge and built a lighter.

[@Lakefront_Khan]

And to be fair the EMPEROR stopped working on the Space Marines, if he would've keep working on them then the woukd still be better then the Primaris.

[@robertnelson9599]

Yes, the Emperor never intended for the Imperium to be controlled by supersoldiers. The Primarchs were an exception, which is why the Emperor put so much effort into making them.

[@Lakefront_Khan]

@@robertnelson9599 EXACTLY, so Cawl didn't do better them EMPEROR could do, he did what the EMPEROR didn't do.

[@jgw9990]

@@Lakefront_Khan except that primarchs like Magnus spent centuries looking for solutions to the flaws in the geneseed. Then cawl strolls in and fixed everything.

[@MrFishman55]

Agreed. Simply improving slightly on the design of the marines isn't as massive a universe break as I believe Arch says it is. Besides, while the Emperor was designing the Marines, he was simultaneously trying to piece together all of mankind into a single ideological political body, WHILE ALSO BEING A PSYKER AND DEALING WITH THE ISSUES FROM THAT. Cawl's only got that one track to chug down - he's not multitasking on NEARLY the level that the emperor was. Giving him 10,000 years, that more narrow mission, and some believable amount of brains, I can totally believe that the primaris marines would result.

[@adriannaranjo4397]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the thunder hammer with the "slick and clean" aesthetic We saw this with ironically enough with the Plague Marines. Their armor went from rotten, painful looking to sleek and cartoony. Going less from cosmic horror you wouldn't even want to be on the same world on to looking like a Captain Planet villain

[@constrainedanacronysm1370]

The way I see Gulliman/Dark Imperium/ Cawl/ Primaris. Is that GW wanted to have a renaissance where the Imperium returned to the level of military might and technological progress of the Great Crusade. Heck Belisaurius Cawl GW's plot device shares a first name with a Byzantium politician that returned his empire to greatness. They easily could have just come up with a serum to upgrade all the space marines like they do sort of now... instead they decided to take a bunch of children, many from directly after the heresy, and turn them into space marines. All to the end to have yet another connection to the Imperium in its golden age. Primaris Marines constantly go on about how this is not the Imperium, and Gulliman forms them all up into what amounts to a space marine legion of old. Everything points to GW wanting to make 40k more like 30k even if they have to basically break the setting to do it.

[@BaranzarCobralVOD]

The gathering storm is the reason why I run Dark heresy before it ever happened.

[@messihr]

I'm really surprised you didn't bring up the "Rubicon" Marines.

[@Agamembar]

The lastest book, Bellisaruis Cawl: The great work, really helps make him a better character, some fantastic personality building for him. I like the character and like the model so while I can understand why people might not like him I like him as both as an excuse for the primaris and the character himself.

[@DASRH]

"Dipped in cheese and fire ants" this is why I love you arch, such an imaginative boi.

[@SultanOfAwesomeness]

Honestly, I’m a huge fan of the primaris armor design, especially the new helmet and the addition of a bevor on some models. I definitely agree that it would’ve worked better if the primaris project was just relegated to new weapons and armor, though. Super mega ultra space marines when!

[@TheCrimsonSpork]

So, what I'm getting from this is that Cawl has some Stark DNA in him

[@kurokaze511]

I'm glad you addressed one of the biggest problems I personally had with the Primaris Marines. While I didn't really have a problem with the new armor ( barring those Optimus Prime wannabe helmets) in fact i thought it made sense for a guy who didn't consider advancement of technology heretical like the rest of the Mechanicus, to make something that looked more advanced like the Mark X. However my biggest problem was, (as you said) why were the chapters just accepting these new guys into their ranks immediately and without issue? The Smurfs and the Fists maybe but even with those you know the Templars aren't going to be cool with these guys just showing up to their party with no invite like that, and forget the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels reactions, you know Logan Grimnar would have shit a Carnifex the instant he saw these guys on his lawn. And that comes to my other big problem, which you also sort of touched on. Cawl made hundreds and hundreds of thousands of these Primaris Marines and you asked where he got the materials to make them, I have a better question. Where did he get the Marines? It's not like he was recruiting children from planets, people would have noticed that, he couldn't have just kidnapped them, I doubt the kids would have cooperated and even if he stole them as infants number one there's a reason the Astartes have recruitment trials not everyone is suited to being one of them, also no matter how big the galaxy is, somebody would have notice a couple hundred thousand babies going missing. The only way he could have pulled that off is with cloning and there is absolutely no way possible that any chapter is going to be willing to call a vat-grown mutant a battle-brother. Also I can only imagine that, to make sure that the geneseed took in his new Super-Duper Marines, and that they were more likely to be the great warriors he needed, Cawl probably used Primarch DNA to make the clones, which makes every one of them existing an act of Heresy.

[@awaldo2848]

Can we get a video of just your angry quotes like that would be awesome

[@brigandboy1425]

I really like the phobos armor (but I hate the reaver masks). That said, yes, I agree with you. Primaris are generic marines. As a SW player, a huge part of my fun and enjoyment has been taking each and every character in my army and making them unique. I don't just have 2 psychers in terminator armor, I have 2 rune priests with backstories I've made up for them to explain their weird armor and trophies. One of them was kitbashed with the cloak from Vulcan (a beautiful cloak that I really enjoyed painting and remolding), some Salamander off-brand shoulder pads, and several weapons/arms from other kits to get his stance the way I wanted. I figured since part of the lore is that every battle brother must make his way back to the fang alive or be left for dead, it made sense to me that a few might show up with weird trophies or kills. So for that runepriest, I decided he had encountered an ice troll, and the hide on his back was the hide of the troll. Thus, Hrothgar Trollhide was born. But fuck me sideways if I'm supposed to get excited about primaris stuff. And don't even get me started on the Route accepting these abominations with open arms of brotherhood without a single recorded test given the lot of them. Utter horseshit, considering that *EVERY STEP* of becoming a Space Wolf is a test of worthiness. It's why I love the chapter so much. They insist on merit above just about all else, even tradition, but never loyalty. Primaris are the Mary Sues of 40K.