43. Josh McDowell - Tolerance Is Unbiblical

[@mztoman]

He is right.A lot of people believe that every faith is equal and everyone is good but that is just not true.If that were true,Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross for us.All of us,including myself.When you tolerate someone you can't tell them they are wrong and help them to get better and lead them to Christ.You can accept that they are a sinner,just don't accept their sin.He is very right.Tolerance is evil,especially for Christians.Jesus is the ONLY way.I hope you guys see that.Soon.

[@kvelez]

0:46 Great view. 1:28 Good point. 1:58 Amen.

[@fuzznns]

i love josh mcdowlle he is sooo great

[@jerico641]

I'm quite tolerant; I have no desire to eliminate anyone's freedom of worship, in whatever way they choose, so long as it hurts no one else. I'm simply hopeful that one day, people themselves will come to the realization that these beliefs are fiction, that they curtail our progress as a species, and that they are dangerous to society. PEOPLE have to first make these changes in themselves. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't force those changes. And I don't try to "teach" anything to anyone.

[@Proofer25]

I think what you mean to say is: "the sooner we accept ideas that have no religious affiliation whatsoever, the better off us non-believers will be." Its ok I still love you and I will still listen : )

[@SuperSlartibartfast]

Many thanks Josh, it's atitudes like yours that made me an athiest.

[@ourtexasjourney1850]

Thank you.

[@paulsmith8540]

Thanks, Nintendo. I've seen the video and just reviewed it again. I accepted Jesus when I was about 13 years old. To say, "God doesn't force anyone into Heaven" isn't enough. What he's really saying is, "Believe exactly this or else!". I've had a problem at times being scared to death over hell. That's not how I want to live anymore. How can I or any of my loved ones be tortured beyond understanding - forever - for thinking differently than non-tolerant people like Josh McDowel.

[@jerico641]

Well, stating that you see faults with atheism implies that it's some kind of belief system or life plan or something. It isn't; atheism is simply an answer to a question, that question being "Do you believe that a god or gods exist?". I'm glad you can see this McDowell character for what he really is, anyway; that puts you a notch above most evangelical christians I've met. I suggest that now that you've found the faults with modern christianity, you might check out the faith as a whole.

[@jerico641]

Well, what I wrote was that I personally don't try to "teach" (read: indoctrinate) anything to anyone; I'm not a teacher. But if you, happen to learn something from me, wonderful; I'm flattered. As for ANYONE teaching any particular subject, yes, I think it's a definite plus if the subject has logic and scientific truth behind it. Don't you?

[@jerico641]

Yes, and the sooner we accept the IDEAS, and discard the GODS, the better off we'll all be.

[@NintendoSinceBirth1]

i see nothing wrong with that you sound like a good person too who would rather believe in a just God then a series of power struggles and unacceptance, i still believe strongly in my catholic backround but i fully understand where you come from. i think as long as your loving God he'll love you back

[@jerico641]

Why? And what do we do with those whom we do not tolerate?

[@jerico641]

Think about this (if you want; I'm still not trying to necessarily teach you anything): we're only special to ourselves; it's our own perception of what is "special" and what isn't that makes us believe that. We've never seen any other forms of intelligent life; for all we know, there is something out there that makes us look like cold leftovers. Yes, we are sophisticated when compared to lower animals, but we CHOOSE to call ourselves "special" or "amazing" or whatever. And death is death.

[@paulsmith8540]

PLEASE explain how someone can be sent to everlasting torture "where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched" in the lake of fire where there will be "weaping an gnashing of teeth" if they can't believe for some reason. Another is told, "Well done thou good and faithful servent. Enter into the joy of the Lord" and he acts like Jerry Falwell, and slanders others. Is this Love? Can someone explain this to me - like I'm a 4 year old?

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco From the start I've said Christians don't have a special claim to higher values. There's plenty in the Bible that's worth repeating, & plenty that's best left in the past. I asked a simple question about Jesus' endorsement of old Jewish law and whether you share it. I also assert that there are no good reasons to believe that natural laws have ever been defied. Is death the just punishment for working on the sabbath or being gay?

[@paulsmith8540]

Nintendo, You're great. Thanks. Where are the others like you? I haven't found any. Can you show me anyone else? Please tell me that God has others like you!! Where are they? I was brought up protestant. Do I have to become Catholic? If so, show me others like you!

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva You've missed the point, Christian values isn't just abiding some rules that seemingly make you a good person even though no one can keep them perfectly. Christian values is about being in a relationship with God which also means acknowledging that you cannot be a good person on your own - so that your imperfections are covered by Christ, becoming a better person is just a side result ( though still important). There is only one road to God, yes that's exclusive but so is truth.

[@DarkOneRRp]

You heard it here first, guys! Turning the other cheek is evil.

[@jerico641]

I never noticed that emblem; must have been in the back of the book or something...

[@jerico641]

No, I meant what I wrote; I believe that you and I and everyone across the planet will be better off the day we learn that these antiquated fables have no place in our governments or even in our private lives. Let me ask you this: assuming that we all have to follow your jesus' supposed command to not be tolerant of "ungodliness", what should we do with those of us who do not believe and conduct their lives accordingly? I'm not talking about the "afterlife"; what should WE do now?

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco I know that there are possibilities. The scenario in "The Matrix" is a possibility too. What I'm asking is what are the good reasons to believe that there is an afterlife or that there is an independent agent (god) in charge of everything? I'll concede objective morality- it isn't necessary. But what are the reasons to believe there's a paternal boss who has no measurable properties?

[@Proofer25]

Just check it out. I believe it was very well documented and they did in depth research. Put your predispositions to the side, and consider the evidence. We can verify all that was said in this video. And i appreciate it. Most atheists I encounter always result to slander and cursing when they run out of valid arguments : )

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco P.S. of course you don't have to "play by my rules". :) But if you want to convince some folks that supernatural forces exist, you're going to need to come up with something better than "it is written". If the new testament meets your standard of truth, how do you feel about Matthew 5:17&18? If what Jesus says there is also true, do you think that old testament laws are just?

[@drumrnva]

@drumrnva *should be a period after 'dust', not a question mark. Sorry.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Argument: Christians clearly don't have exclusive access to values, since many non-Christians have arguably done good/avoided harm for others. I'll try not to bombard with questions. You've said that what is written in the bible is exclusive, reliable and has a greater claim to truth than any other text. How do you know this?

[@paulsmith8540]

Nintendo, you're a nice person. I can tell. Thank you for understanding. There's an old joke, though. "How many ____ does it take to screw in a light bulb"? Well, "How many Christians does it take before I find one who acts like Christ?" Look, I've been a Christian since I was about 13. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 55. I've tried so hard. I just can't justify the Bible's morality anymore. I accept God, but not the hateful fan club. They tell me I'm bound for hell.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Primary argument against afterlife is the apparent fact that when things are dead they don't exist in any evident way. Hyperactive agency detection=We look for independent agents even if there are none. Good for survival, not so good to discern truth. We assign value and meaning to what frightens or bewilders us. The flat earth, geocentrism, belief in disease as the acts of evil spirits, etc have all given way to reason. God has been raised above all definition at this point.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco Both if i remember correctly, God was stricter on the Jews because they are supposed to be a light in the world, they were to be set aside from the nations because salvation was to come through Israel.

[@EuropaLeague]

nice intro

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Woops sorry i meant biography, lol that was my bad i didn't realise i wrote that. What about other miraculous claims or miraculous in today's time? what about them? I'm not sure, if there is no naturalistic explanations then yeah sure i don't see why not. Not all miracles or text are done/inspired by God. Just because there are others doesn't mean there isn't an authentic one. How do we figure out which one is authentic? Find out which one makes sense, the message is more important.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco There aren't any autobiographies of Jesus. If he ever wrote anything, we apparently don't have it. What about miraculous claims in other holy texts? Heck, what about eyewitness accounts of miraculous events today? Do you believe them too?

[@NaturalMiracleMan]

Josh McDowell's religion is responsible for an unimaginable amount of suffering throughout history, because of Christian hatred and distaste for any opinions that do not line up with the stance of Christianity, even differing opinions from other Christians. That is why the symbol of Christianity is viewed as a symbol of intolerance and hate in so many places. Imagine if the Nazis tried to reform themselves into a peaceful organization and then complained as Josh McDowell is.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco Continued > Not to mention how the apostles of Jesus ( and early christians in Jerusalem) who were first hand witness to everything that had happened would die torturous deaths, deny much much easier life continuously all for a lie.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco > rather than to be taken care of and given husbands .

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco Anyway rather than me explaining the argument i'll just link you this vid, i would explain it to you myself but the reason i wont is because i've only just been introduced to Modal Logic so im not so knowledgeable on it . It's about six minutes, hopefully you have time to check it out.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Please bring arguments not general statements that just basically say " i'm right you're wrong".

[@jerico641]

Why would allowing himself (assuming the deity is male) to be studied and researched make him somehow less omnipotent? How is it somehow "illogical" to you? Nothing is observed by faith, just believed (somehow); for something to be observed visually, it must be sharing the same space with you. Faith, as it applies to religion, is only belief in a legend, or story. Now, I don't know what you mean about the "intelligence from non-intelligence" reference.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco The vast majority of believers/non-believers know there's a difference between murder & bad table behavior. Why is that? Also: What if there isn't an objective moral arbiter? If there wasn't, would you then give yourself permission to commit crimes? Of course not. Being afraid of going somewhere after you die (still no evidence that's true) is not the only motivator for people's behavior. We can actually develop morally. Isn't that better than depending on (cont'd)

[@drumrnva]

@drumrnva and whatever you might say, you do NOT want the morals of 1st-century Palestine to be some sort of model for today.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco But for the vast majority of people, every person/thing they ever did, touched, saw, or cared about is eventually rendered less than dust? It's a human trait to insist that it has to *MEAN* something. We also feel an overwhelming compulsion to reproduce, but is that really what the world needs- more babies? There are lots of examples of human behavior which is counter-productive. You have examples of separation of mind/body? Please tell me. Do you remember before you were born?

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco I *do* understand the context, but it's a literary one. We could also be discussing Zeus or Horus. A list of attributes is way too abstract. How about telling me one of God's primary characteristics? And sure, some countries are lagging behind, but there's a lot of pressure on them to come into the 21st century.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva I agree with you 100% whether if we learn what good and bad is or we haven innate sensors or whatever - i definitely i agree that we experience morality in our life christian or non christian. What i meant is that there really isn't a justification for something is wrong because atheism has no moral foundation for the moral experience - i guess all it is is altruism of the human kind when they sacrifice their wellbeing for others. Continued >>

[@jerico641]

I'm afraid that part of love - true love - IS tolerance. No, more than that, it's acceptance. If you really love someone, you love them just as they are; it's their personality traits that cause you to love them in the first place, see? If your jesus had no tolerance for the way people behaved, then he sure had a funny way of showing it. Now, what about what I said regarding the "complex, special" nature of humans? No comments on that? I know it had to make some sense to you.

[@Proofer25]

Your right and he did. Notice that he welcomed and loved the people not their ideas. I love you just as much as I do Christians---that doesnt mean I conform to your ideas of morality. Tolerating different beliefs is fine but accepting them is not. If thats the case than your saying everyone's view of morality is just, and thats silly if you do the research. Jesus loved and thats what He commanded us to do. If you looked closely you'll find He also commanded us to NOT be tolerant of unGodliness

[@RonJDuncan]

@atheistprophet5760 Have you forgotten the rest of the passage about the woman who committed adultery? "Go, and sin no more." How about the first words of Jesus recorded in Matthew? "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." It doesn't mean that God toleates sin; mercy is given so that the person may have the opportunity to repent of sin before judgement comes down. It's not about letting people continue to do whatever they want. Eventually, without repentance, judgement must come.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco The Shakespeare analogy might not help your position. WS's plays are full of human perception & beautiful language, but they're *stories*. Reading the bible is no different to reading Shakespeare for me. I don't believe in an afterlife, & I think it's up to those who claim its existence to demonstrate it. Re: attributes--again, please give me one primary *characteristic* of Yahweh. If he were speaking to me, how would I know for certain that it was He?

[@Proofer25]

Well its sounds like your personal disposition to anything that may be contrary to your so called evidence that gives the best explanation to existence wont allow you to accept any ideas outside your own, no matter how overwhelming the evidence. Thats the common atheist mindframe. We're more tolerant of you than you are us. Look at public schools: all they teach is secular ideas, what more do you want? Everyones lives to be secular and without hope? We still love you, God Bless you !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Nah the questions are fine =), of course Christians don't have exclusive access to values ( besides trust in God) i totally agree that non-christians have done good/avoided harm for others in the past and now. The difference here though is that unless you have an objective moral foundations for saying something is good or bad is just incorrect. I'm not sure i've said that it's exclusive maybe you can refresh my memory in what way it is. Continue >

[@NaturalMiracleMan]

@fuzznns You seem to be ignoring the majority of Christian history in your statement.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva No the bible is about relationships, this is what is taught at universities by biblical scholars and what i have checked up for myself - like you can too, very easy to find out and its not what i have randomly coughed out of my mouth. Lol i don't understand what you mean that others can say it too? Of course they will say it and that just makes my point there is only one road as truth lol just cause others say it doesn't mean there isn't a true road or that they all are.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva OH btw thank you for your blessings, very kind of you! =)

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Re: exclusive, see post beginning "you've missed the point". I don't know about objective morality. Positing some objective source like a god doesn't prove its existence. Further, if it were objective it would be unchanging, right? The best humanity can do has improved over the centuries. Slavery / human sacrifice used to be common, now they're quite taboo. Our morals are improving & we have a long way to go. What's considered 'moral' depends on the time and the people. (cont'd)

[@Proofer25]

We all have voices. If what you said had no meaning and no one could learn anything from it, why speak? Just ask yourself this one question.---- Just about every scientist will agree that man is the most complex, sophisticated creature to ever walk the earth. In the same sense they will tell us that all there is to life is just life and death? If all there is to life is coming and going--- what makes man so special? How can we be special if we just live and die like everything else?

[@scnarb]

@Burreyito Germany and Switzerland don't lvie by Christian morals and they do pretty well. And American society no longer follows Christian values closely, not with homosexuality being legal, gay marriage legal in some places, abortion legal, and freedom of religion is certainly not a Christian value. Sex out of marriage isn't a crime or even discouraged really, and that's a Christian restriction.

[@drumrnva]

@Burreyito The values of many who profess Christianity might be higher, but it's not the Christian-ness that makes them that way. We all know the bible is written from an iron age perspective. We all know that some of it can be applied and some of it has no place in modern society. Defining "Christian values" as one thing is just as hard as defining "atheist values". A person has either chosen to be responsible and productive, or they haven't. You can get there by a lot of different roads.

[@Proofer25]

That's interesting. So more simply put, its ok to teach something to the public as long as it is scientifically observable, can be scientifically proven, and does defy any laws of what most ppl consider logic and physically possible?? My friend you are teaching me something. We are here to learn and teach so its ok. You are teaching me that (thru what you consider logic or common sense) that a life without God makes more sense. I may not agree with you but your teaching nonetheless....

[@drumrnva]

@drumrnva a scary spirit that metes out punishments/rewards? Isn't it more mature to want to grow inwardly and make your 70-80 yrs (if you're lucky) matter at least while you're here? Isn't it better to accept the likely truth that we do indeed die? The truth is often unpleasant in nature...in fact it's pretty nasty for most animals. We have it pretty good. ;) I wish you every success at university. Since you're in Australia maybe you can tell the rest of us the future. Cheers.

[@Proofer25]

Firstly if you say that these beliefs have no place in our private lives, then I must make the assertion that you ARE NOT tolerant. So it would be hypocrisy to say you are. And as far as doing something about the unGodliness, Jesus gives us no place to judge and condemn ppl for what they believe. All we are commanded to do is Love the person---that doesnt mean love the behavior. We are to teach and let the word speak for itself. Physical judgement is for God only...

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Zeus has equal claim being real, imo. Seems to me you're saying that in order to believe what's in the bible, I have to believe what's in the bible. The adjectives you've used (omni, etc) don't move me because I literally don't know who you're talking about, other than in a literary sense. I know Yahweh in the same sense that I know Harry Potter. A decline in murder, longer life span, better quality of life for more people is "useless"? Please explain.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Lol i don't try to act moral because im scared of hell but it's because i love God and he has given me existence, it's the least i can do for Him. I don't that's more mature lol what does it matter what you do now if you pop out of existence ? What about to be remembered? Well im pretty sure you won't care about that when you're dead and our families and loved ones will forget about us too in their death. Continue>

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco I'm pretty sure no one remembers that wonderful man or woman 3000 years ago who was killed or raped by murders or whatever. So i genuinely don't think it's more mature, i think it's just trying to find meaning in nothing which ultimately means the meaning that is given has no last value. We'll i don't think its more likely that we die into non existence after our bodily death, i can give you an argument that we are not the same as our body or brain if you want.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Yes i know Shakespeare are mere fictitious stories but i used it as an analogy not for that part but for you to understand the importance of understanding a text's context, so i don't see how it didn't help out. No sorry buddy :P both of us have to give arguments lol im pretty sure you havent been dead lately and found out that there is no afterlife- believing it doesn't exist is not a default position. That's up to Yahweh to decide how he would show you, certainly He can do so though.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva I know you know that there is a difference, one is worse than the other but again on atheism there is no justifications for that difference. If there was no moral anchor would i just give my self permission to do bad? i don't even think we would have moral experiences if there is no objective moral foundation. I never said being afraid of where you're going after you die is the only motivator for people's behaviour.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Objective morality certainly provides evidence for God, since God is the only way to make sense of the moral experience we have. Why? Because naturalistic explanations either come to JUST being evolutionary societal adaptations thru random chance or mere preference for example i like chocolate, you like tutti-frutti. Though none of these options make random killings of innocent people wrong because the the 2 naturalistic options have no value in them because death marks the end .

[@Burreyito]

Christians values are much higher than any others.... western society was founded on these values; atheists are enjoying a Christian values based society. You atheist should go to live in the former Soviet Union to see what atheism did to these people. I propose all atheist to go to Cuba and build a prosper nation like the USA which emblem for two hundred years was "Prayer and Work".

[@NintendoSinceBirth1]

i dont think its believe this or else its more like be a good person and accept God and he will accept you no matter what, i really dont thinks its very hard to get into heaven and i dont think hell is very populated

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco OK, then- I'll bite: What special access to THE TRUTH is given to you by your particular holy text? How is yours different? And I mean how is it *objectively* different? Example: it's not enough to just say that it's different because it says so within its pages...

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco Continued >> When some one rapes or murders etc etc they aren't doing something "wrong" they are just acting out of fashion like a bad kid at dinner table - and you know why? Because in atheism tho you may experience morality it has No objective value and duty. Why? because once you die that's it game over, all go to the same place, the rich and the poor, the Just and the Unjust. When you die you won't feel anything you wont remember anything and you wont Be anything. Continued>>

[@NintendoSinceBirth1]

look up "girl asks frank turek if shes going to hell" i think his response is pretty good. and no loving christians should condone jerry falwell hes a bigot who scews the messages Jesus gave us

[@jerico641]

Nice "Philadelphia" reference there -lol- but no, I don't think any of the fundies are going to be able to explain it at all...

[@Proofer25]

And one final note you seem to enjoy rummaging through Christian videos and making comments. And your blurry interpretations of scripture show that you have some interest in what we believe. Just remember this: the Bible has and always will stand for itself. What you believe requires proving because its always evolving. The Word of God is the same always.

[@fuzznns]

@ naturalmircalman dude christians do not hate we try to love others like are brother and sister

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Lol i never liked the word supernatural, it already makes it sound silly without a chance of understanding :P. Lol of course it has to be better than "it is written" because before that you have to check if what is written is reliable which i think it is. I definitely believe Matthew 5:17-18 is true, those Laws have been fulfilled in Christ. Salvation was to come through the Jewish people, they had to follow the ritual laws to set themselves aside from the nations.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva I've already answered the Christians values part. I've already answered that Jesus did endorse the jewish ritual laws but that he has fulfilled them, natural laws defied? natural "laws" aren't like laws - its more accurately to say natural causations in which God can produce causations that are above natures normal power or routine, there is no laws being broken. But yes you've asserted but not given any arguments. Continue >

[@wanderhead]

Josh Mcdowell makes good points here and there but sometimes he makes me want to vomit

[@jerico641]

If they state that dinosaurs and human beings lived together at the same time, and the world is only 6 - 10 thousand years old, then they most certainly did not do any in-depth research; they couldn't have. And if this is the case, how do "we" "verify" it? Just give me an overview and explain, okay? I really don't want to wade around in another creationist video swamp right now.

[@RequiemNocturne1]

Tolerance or elitism, at least with tolerance you can shed light on your similarities but by claiming all other beliefs are moot compared to yours sounds very prideful. Some beliefs fit other people better, while others do not. How can you put your belief on a pedestal and not look around you and understand them and sympathize with them?

[@NaturalMiracleMan]

@Burreyito For most of Christianity's existence, Christians maimed, slaughtered, tortured, executed, burned to death, stole from, and kidnapped the children of non-Christians. These were not isolated incidents; Christianity wasn't kind in its goal to wipe out all other beliefs. Does this behavior make all Christians evil? No. The same goes for atheists and the Soviet Union. However, this should make you reconsider your claim that "Christians values are much higher than any others."

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Evolution isn't just chance & preference. Even wild animals reward beneficent behaviors and punish harmful ones. Why don't piranhas eat each other? Are they moral? Why would an atheist like me give blood? What if humanity has some herd/hive instincts whose ultimate goal is to prolong the population even if some individuals suffer? Seems plausible to me. Again, if God's morality is "objective" why does it appear to evolve and change? Even if I concede that morality (cont'd)

[@Burreyito]

@eancarana you skeptic? you are not skeptic. I am skeptic about you...

[@NaturalMiracleMan]

@fuzznns What do you mean "no it not does not"? That makes no sense. As for the rest of your comment, what does that have to do with what I said? Again, you seem to be ignoring the majority of Christian history.

[@jerico641]

Oh, no; please don't tell me this is another of those "dinosaurs living with humans" stories again. "Audacious" is a pretty good description of those; cursing makes for a better description, but I'll attempt not to do that...

[@jerico641]

You're beginning to see the basic concepts of your modern religion. Keep at it...

[@NaturalMiracleMan]

@Burreyito Today's peaceful and kind Christianity didn't exist until a bunch of deists and Christians decided that religions didn't deserve to rule in American society, because of the reasoning of a bunch of atheists, deists, and Christian political, social, and moral philosophers. Your religion isn't as kind and tolerant as you might like to think.

[@jerico641]

Yeah, the 17th Century maybe...

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Yahweh gets a LOT of latitude, doesn't he? :) I realize that your view is within a theological framework. Mine isn't. I don't say that one's right and one's wrong, but please understand that citing biblical ideas, cultural memes, etc means absolutely nothing to me. The many positive changes in human life make me grateful that people have been willing to make changes in every day secular life, regardless of their opinions on an afterlife.

[@Proofer25]

I'm like you buddy. If I believe something I want it to be true. Afterall, why believe and live your life to a lie? I'm big on evidence and evidence is what lead me to my faith. If you have time look this video up: " A Must See: Secret history of Dinosaurs" --- This film makes some very audacious claims to what science has always taught. But science has always made audacious claims itself. Just watch and consider the well researched evidence they present to you, and you be the judge....

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Okay well i've just shown you that Zeus doesn't. No it doesn't mean you have to believe but to read something you got to know the right context in which to understand its message - this is for any text, give Shakespeare to a person who's only recently learnt English and he will have no clue at all what they are talking about. Lol i dont understand what you mean by " they dont move me", the attributes of Yahweh are the superlative abilities, the omnis.

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco There isn't a single 'atheist morality'. Answer me this: How did the myriad civilizations (Asia & elsewhere) thrive for thousands of years before anyone heard of Christian values? We have an innate sense of fairness. We know that some sense of morality exists within us, otherwise our species *would not have survived*. How did all of those countless millions survive and make progress without any knowledge of Yahweh or Yeshua?

[@NintendoSinceBirth1]

hahaaha i dont know you could certainly talk to a catholic priest and learn more about it, but ive gone to catholic school my whole life and been to church my whole life and was always taught acceptance and love and that it wasnt my place to judge or condem others

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco I mean that if you live and then your life ends at the grave ( same as every other human) then whatever good action or bad it doesn't matter, hitler and mother teresa all go to the same place ( nothingness), rich & poor - it does not matter how you live or how you affect people because we die in nothingness. That's why on Atheism morality doesn't make the slightest sense, its useless.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Ok literary one, what about theological one or historical or cultural, these are important too. Why would we be discussing Zeus or Horus? They aren't omnipotent - the gods limit each other, they aren't the moral compass they follow the abstract object " The Good"- these are clearly finite beings since they were created too. They are nothing like Yahweh, to compare is just a huge misunderstanding. Again even if society has become" morally better" or "worse" it's just subjective, useless

[@drumrnva]

@CettoTheCesco Again, there's no problem with folks wanting to be in a relationship with God, and if that's what you glean from the bible then good for you. But I still say that it's tough to put a real definition on "Christian values". As for the "truth" being "only one road"....no. You can't say that's THE TRUTH any more than a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or non-believer can. Sorry.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Lol you're telling me to tell you what is so special about for the new testament which is consisted of letters and ancient auto biographies of Jesus without referring to them? That's totally disregarding that the new testament IS evidence, i don't have to play by your rules - the new testament its self is the best ancient and reliable text we have, ever. No naturalistic explanations can account for how Jesus survived and got out of that tomb .. continues >

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Oh i didnt say evolution is just chance and preference lol the preference part is about our likes and dislikes. Lol man i see this too much, God does not murder - he gives life and he can take it according to the plan he has for mankind, man's life is not his own neither did he earn it nor buy it. The propitiation is to fulfil the justice that God must bring about - which Christ has done. Lol taking spoils of war like girls? oh right, better leave them with the dead to starve and die.

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Of course it's in a theological framework, to understand who God is you have to know his attributes - all loving, all just, all the omnis - you have to understand the historical context, cultural context etc lol it Should mean something to you when you have claims against it because you don't understand the context. Lol it depends where you say positive change, not in some countries, and why does it make even the slightest value difference if life just ends at the grave?

[@CettoTheCesco]

@CettoTheCesco Sure its reliable, i can give you links if you want. Greater claim to truth? yeah, the resurrection of Christ says it all really ( remember i said no naturalistic expl can account for it, neither can it account for the apostles dramatic conviction, change, lack of fear of death and discarding the better life).

[@Proofer25]

Well yes I believe it should make sense, but at the same time I believe there are things that are NOT scientifically observable. How could GOD be an omnipotant GOD if he allowed himself to be put under a microscope. To ME, thats not logical to believe HE would allow that. God is observed by faith, not by man made tools. Just the very idea that intelligence can come from non-intelligence makes me feel less intelligent for considering it. (thanks for not cursing by the way : )

[@CettoTheCesco]

@drumrnva Yeah i know it's a human trait, so? Yes some things we do are counter productive, so? Woah :P read what i said - the argument is for providing good reason to think that you are not your brain, it's not about afterlife or " you remember before you were born?" and btw you don't have to, your soul could be created at conception or when you're a baby i have no idea but they are possibilities.