440: Why Denver Changed on Joseph’s Polygamy (Part 4 of 7 Denver Snuffer)

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Joseph and Hyrum vehemently fought against polygamy. Up until he was killed. I believe Joseph. And Hyrum. And Emma. Now, to watch the video! I'm curious to see what was said. Especially because it usually happens backwards. People like him with a movement seem to " progress" to polygamy. To me that's a sign they are in the wrong. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The scriptures are clear now God feels about marriage.

[@GospelTangents]

If you're really seeking light and truth as you claim, then please feel free to watch and critique my Mark Tensmeyer interview: kzbin.info/aero/PLLhI8GMw9sJ7FXIObT0FEowMyDEQVhVL-

[@alanyoung6572]

Ver much appreciate both of these characters.

[@spiderb3367]

Excellent video, I disagree with his conclusion but he has a very scholarly approach that I appreciate. Excited for more content from the channel as always! 🖤

[@rosastephens8966]

@ 11:56 ..so we just throw out JC Bennett's account about what was done when unwanted pregnancies occurred?

[@marybruun9621]

Bennett was excommunicated and therefore, bitter. He as well as McClellan, we’re out to demonize Joseph. Same as with William and Wilson Law.

[@rosastephens8966]

@@marybruun9621 That doesn't mean what he said was wring.

[@conniewaterman1673]

@@rosastephens8966 John C. Bennett was a serial adulterer and was therefore a liar.

[@GospelTangents]

I have an upcoming interview with Mark Tensmeyer and we discuss the abortion claims. Mark gives a good case why he finds them spurious.

[@GospelTangents]

Here's where we discuss John C Bennett allegations of abortion: kzbin.info/aero/PLLhI8GMw9sJ7FXIObT0FEowMyDEQVhVL-

[@SOtransformational]

Question: Did the contemporaries of Joseph Smith who where practicing polygamy have offspring from their plural wives?

[@MrHFMetz]

They sure did, you can look that up in Wikipedia. I think Brigham Young championed them all in this regard. Well he was rich enough to maintain his families.

[@GospelTangents]

Are you talking about before or after 1844? Brigham Young had 55 children, if memory serves, but I believe all were after 1844.

[@GospelTangents]

I will also add that polygamy was a secret doctrine until 1852.

[@heberfrank8664]

One of my ancestors was a first cousin to Joseph and eventually an apostle. He had 7 wives and I come through the 6th one. Is it crazy for someone that descends from a plural marriage to badmouth polygamy?

[@SOtransformational]

Did anyone who Joseph Smith personally shared the concept of polygamy with and practiced it while Joseph was alive have children with there plural wives?

[@MrHFMetz]

The interview becomes more exciting all the time. Now it's polygamy. Maybe people tend to sexualize the principle of polygamy in Mormon culture too much, (which is only natural though). Perhaps our Western babylonian culture makes us doing so. My idea is that what is called plural marriage in the ealy mormon context was not so much concerned with sexuality at all. I am afraid since our western culture is becoming over-sexed more and more everyday, the real thing behind Mormon polygamy becomes more and more difficult to comprehend for normal people like me. So we have to try to live a pure and holy life in order to get understanding by the Spirit, of these things, a little better This part of the interview is giving new insights on the subject, to ponder. We need that. Thanks for this post.

[@milenarismocolombia1144]

If you marry a woman, Is because you want offsprings from her, Joseph Smith had no sons from His other wives, Muhammad for example had only one son with His polygamous wives.

[@MrHFMetz]

@@milenarismocolombia1144 That is an interesting point you make; but about Joseph's associates, like Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lorenzo Snow (to name a few) we can be pretty sure; they had a lot of children. For me this subject remains a mystery. Indeed it is unless one fully accepts D&C 132 but I have some doubts about that section for reveral reasons.

[@jonbystrom9410]

BRIGHAM YOUNG BRINGS WIFE SWAPPING HOME TO NAUVOO kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKrNYn6afN2ZZpY

[@Tyler-2839]

I think that Warren Jeffs shows us what polygamy is all about. There's a great documentary about him called "Prophet of Evil".

[@charlesmendeley9823]

How is "Fanny and Joseph in the barn" not a sexual thing? I wonder what happened to her pregnancy.

[@jwhippet8313]

Nobody cares, but good heaven Mr Snuffer has some crazy blue eyes.

[@heberfrank8664]

If the Second Book of Commandments is true revelation then we can be certain that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. Right? If it is not true revelation then who in our day has had the gift to receive Word of the Lord oracles from Heaven that was restored again to earth with Joseph? Or was the gift taken back again from the earth some time after Joseph died?

[@GospelTangents]

Heber, I don't know what group you are with, but I don't know anyone (except you) who even knows what the Second Book of Commandments is, let along whether it is true revelation, so it is a bit of a strawman to reference that to buttress your argument for people outside of your group. (What group are you in?) Having said that, I don't believe Joseph was a monogamist. I think it is wrong to throw away all evidence after June 27, 1844.

[@heberfrank8664]

@@GospelTangents The 2BC forbids setting up another church. 2BC 24 predicts a year of cleansing of the church. But the 2BC did authorize a School of the Prophets (1982) and a United Order society (1989). These still exist. We we do not seek members, but will teach those that seek us out. www.2bc.info Even if I do not mention the 2BC I sincerely believe my question is valid: has ANYONE in our day had the gift to receive Word of the Lord oracles from Heaven that was restored again to earth with Joseph? Or was the gift taken back again from the earth some time after Joseph died? By the way, over time I have come to like your KZbin channel more. At first it seemed too much off on tangents.

[@GospelTangents]

@@heberfrank8664 who received the revelations in the second book of commandments?

[@heberfrank8664]

@@GospelTangents Robert Crossfield (1929-2018) He was kinda shy actually. Read "We are NOT to Worship the Prophets" that he wrote and put into the 2BC: www.2bc.info/pdf/2BC-P100.pdf#page=3

[@cinnamondan4984]

Awesome

[@GospelTangents]

For those interested, here is Brian Hales website that has the documents he used. mormonpolygamydocuments.org/

[@lightrevolutionsdotcom9415]

RICK : Good job boldly having such a variety of guests! Even when you don't agree with them, you are setting a good example of open dialogue. Denver is certainly an intelligent man, but when you get past that dazzle, his doctrine is quite imbecilic. Many super nice people associated with his movement though (some of whom I associated with for a time down here in Tucson).

[@senecaaurelius1811]

There is the question of why Hyrum, Joseph, Mary Fielding and Emma never actually record or state publicly an endorsement of plural marriage and instead it’s all 2nd accounts. Can you find such evidence? Until you can, be careful who and what you call “imbecilic.”

[@kpwillson]

You sure can tell hes a lawyer

[@Gideonslc]

I can understand how & why he reaches the position he has better... though I would note that the absence of proof of sexual activity in posterity is not proof of zero sexual contact.

[@rosastephens8966]

@ 16:47 ..ahhh History of the Saints by Bennett came out in 1842 . Thats quite a 'document ' of 'source material' put 'pen to paper' before 1844. #FactsMatter

[@richardredick7515]

Joseph may or may not have sired children by women other than Emma, but there were plural wives of Joseph Smith who felt confident that they had conceived and borne his children. Also, of I am not mistaken, the angel with drawn sword story came from Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, not Eliza R. Snow.

[@richardredick7515]

Sorry, Denver, I just simply believe the "Joseph was a little chaste monogamist " as pure fantasy. I give you kudos, however, on having squeaky clean fantasy. Good for you!

[@richardredick7515]

So, I am supposed to believe that everyone from the Qof12, to William Law, Sidney Rigdon, Wm Clayton, WW Phelps, Reynolds Cahoon, Amasa Lyman, Jedidiah Grant, and Lorenzo Snow somehow misunderstood Joseph Smith on this subject. I am supposed to believe, as well, that women who testified in court to being his wife, and having carnal intercourse with him were liars. Does he think I am stupid?

[@richardredick7515]

Free Thinker, I included Sidney Rigdon (anti-polygamist) in with a bunch of pro-polygamy men on purpose. I was not implying that Sidney believed in it. No, on the contrary, although Rigdon (along with Wm Mark's, and others) did not believe in it, but his words help establish that there was a lot of secret stuff going on.

[@richardredick7515]

@Free Thinker. You and I will just have to disagree regarding Joseph Smith's involvement in plural marriage. Regarding Sidney Rigdon, I understand that he strongly believed that the Lord refused to protect Joseph and Hyrum Smith from their enemies due to their personal involvement in what Sidney considered most abominable: Polygamy. Additionally, there is that conflict between Joseph and Nancy Rigdon , Sidney's daughter. I understand that, among other things - such as the presidential election - led to Sidney taking Nancy with him, and moving back near Pittsburgh prior to Joseph's death. Sidney wanted plenty of space between Joseph and his daughter.

[@lightrevolutionsdotcom9415]

@@richardredick7515 : Go Richard! Funny skepticism. This is Denvers huge stumbling stone.... he asks us to believe all Utah leaders are lying whoremongers! I'd like to hear Denver explain away Old Testament polygamy, with his "chaste" fantasies. Lol!

[@steventhomasson557]

The first presidency interprets scripture

[@GospelTangents]

Everybody interprets scripture.

[@Dbschroeder]

I see Kody and 3 of his wives *may have down voted this video-I'm thinking.

[@catherinesullivan641]

“Plenitude in the after life”🤣🤣apparently practiced in the present life!

[@rosastephens8966]

@ 14:03 ... well i think the history shows that some of the liaisons took place in beds, in barns, in bushes, in the upper room of the red brick store, in covered carriages ( i think one of JS adopted daughters (a partridge) said standing up in a room in the Mansion House ) and were ever else he could when he was alone with a girl/woman.

[@conniewaterman1673]

Were you there? Did you see these liaisons and marriages take place? I wonder how anyone can be so convinced in their mind to make such allegations as yours. When I first left the church, I believed every lie about Joseph and the Book of Mormon. Now that I have come full circle, I just feel sorry for those that would rather believe the lies, instead of revering the man whom God chose to restore His church.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

@@conniewaterman1673 God bless you for coming back. That journey must’ve been very hard and challenging. The Prophet Joseph Smith has been maligned and accused for far too long. Of course, that goes double for the Book of Mormon.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

Rosa, it would be easier and more fun to believe what you just said than what the truth is. Give me a break. Emma was already known to be a feisty woman, and there is no way that she would’ve stood for this. My belief is that she truly truly knew that Joseph had been faithful his entire life. I believe everyone who has maligned him with these lies is going to stand accountable at the bar of Christ someday. Likely, Joseph will be there to hear you try to defend yourself. Have fun with that.

[@rosastephens8966]

@@senecaaurelius1811 Neither you nor i are Emma Smith and your reaction to the marriage dynamics of the Smith marriage is not hers nor mine.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

Rosa, talk about speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You literally just contradicted yourself in your argument. Go back and read what you said the first time and then what you said the second. I’m sure you couldn’t pick it up, but you’re definitely showing your lack of critical thinking skills. Have a nice life.

[@Dink1963]

Can you get Denver Snuffer to do anotget interview - Now in 2022- about the Chad and Lori Daybelll case where these 2 “allegedly” murdered their spouses snd her 2 children? That will get you 2-3k new subscribers immediately. Do a live wuth this guy!

[@GospelTangents]

I doubt it. It was hard enough to get him to do the first interview, and he made it clear in part 7 that he didn't want to do another.

[@Dink1963]

@@GospelTangents you did a great job!

[@jrtodd-br4zc]

Whether or not Denver changed, the image of God stayed the same

[@tkw79]

Joseph was a polygamist…I don’t care what Emma said. I’m starting to doubt everything Joseph has even done. He probably made everything up which means none of this even matters. I’m just gonna stick with the Bible from now on.

[@FFM115]

Yeah, until you study the Old Testament and start learning about Jacob, Abraham, etc. then you’ll become an atheist. Running away from what you don’t yet understand is not the solution, truth is a gem and requires some effort to obtain it.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

The Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ. Read it, ponder it, and pray about it. Joseph Smith is an extension of all of this, but your testimony should always be founded on the divinity and reality of Jesus of Nazareth.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Or maybe he wasn't, like he claimed repeatedly and ought to be believed.

[@BFGalbraith74]

You might consider Young's role in the crazy attributed to Smith... bfgalbraith.blogspot.com/2023/12/unhallowed-hand.html

[@Uke1111-to8xj]

Then you will learn about the Bible history and will start doubting the Bible as well. I would not recommend going down that rabbit hole. You will find errors in every scripture, in every prophet, in every religion. Build your personal relationship with Heavenly Father, learn to listen to the spirit, write your thoughts down and God will help you find the truth. But be aware of your mind, silence it before you talk to God, the human mind can misinterpret and misguide often.But when the mind is quiet, God appears and teaches you personally.

[@kymopar]

WOW!..this guy is grabbing at straws.. read helen mar kimball's story.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

HMK stood a lot to lose by denying the “doctrine of plural marriage.” Clean up your life. Matthew 3:2.

[@bigfattrolllord]

I guess he's a conspiracy theorist.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

Not a theory.

[@bigfattrolllord]

@@senecaaurelius1811 The owner of this channel says that anyone who believes that Joseph was a monomagist is a conspiracy theorist.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

@@bigfattrolllord cool story, bro.

[@bigfattrolllord]

@@senecaaurelius1811 so hopefully you understand that my original comment was sarcasm.

[@senecaaurelius1811]

Oh my gosh, I’m sorry! Continue onwards then! Lol.