458 Winchester Magnum vs 458 Lott: What's The Best Dangerous Game Cartridge?

[@robertbridges517]

I published an article in South Africa's Magnum magazine (Dec 2009.."The 458 XL") where I just loaded the 458 out to Lott length and replicated the Lott power. This is possible since the chamber dimensions of the 458 permit this (clearance needs to be checked). I ran pressure tests for the article also. The test rifles were a Ruger #1, a CZ 550 and a Winchester 70 with the magazine, follower, bolt stop and ejector were swapped out for 375/416 Win parts. This was interesting for the South Africans in that they avoided re-registering the rifle if rechambered to Lott. The loads tested were 450, 500 and 550 grains..... All I wanted to do was bring the 458 safely up to 2150 fps threshold. The 450 Barnes had muzzle velocities of 2400 fps. The 550 Woodleighs were 2100. As noted below.... a 480 grain used for the 450 NE does well in the 458.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[@cliffordschorr]

I'd take the .458 lott purely because it's got more power and because you can fire .458 win out of it. It's just more versatile and if you find yourself looking for ammo you'll probably find one or the other, so having a gun that shoots both is just fantastic

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Fair enough, that's solid reasoning.

[@tonyjones4861]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog if you can handle the recoil. I struggle with a 458WM and no muzzle break. Most people do

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

That's the real trick isn't it?

[@ironDsteele]

Of all of my rifle's I would say my .458 Win Mag in a Mark V Deluxe is my favorite. It can take down mosquitos, Hippos, intruders or steel. Whatever the job I have a load for it. Can't say the same for the AR15

[@richardshippful]

I loaded my 458 wm with 400gr Trophy Bonded bear claw sp at 2400 fps, 2" groups at 200 yds. Lighter recoil, but faster follow up. Jack Carter of Trophy Bonded gave me the load. BUT he said he shot a 458 Lott with 500 gr "because it hit with more acclarity" I beleive him. I took a Cape Buffalo in Zimbabwe in 97 with the 400 load.

[@markm976]

The .458 win mag is a fully adequate dangerous game cartridge period..

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

100%

[@tonymonchanic2832]

Winchester made sure you got the FULL Dangerous Game Experience. They understood the assignment

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

HAHA!

[@jrmcbuck1]

thats funny

[@badboymelvin9149]

I am a fan - and use a .458WM and have never found it wanting in the velocity department with my handloads. I have gotten an easy 2150fps with the Woodleigh 480gn and am currently using the 550gn Woodleigh at a chrono'd 2080fps in my 24" barrel - so don't let anyone tell you that heavier bullets can't be used in the WM... So yes, there were problems with the .458 and yes, they have been sorted now. Great video and thanks for making it.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@gls2501]

Yeah but can you say it is a Lott of fun to shoot your rifle?!

[@maartensswanepoel11]

I own and have taken Cape Buffalo with a bolt action 416 Rigby, 1 shot kills... But if I get a double rifle, I would get it in 458 Lott because of its versatility and the fact that if need be, I can use 458 Win cartridges in it.

[@bobborlog1677]

Really I never knew 458 Lott chamber could use 458 win mag that makes 458 Lott the way to go.

[@JAD1225]

Not having hunted Africa; but spent 4 yrs. in Alaska; I use Federal Premium Safari cartridges with 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. A devastating load in the 458 Win Mag.

[@MrJtin69]

Against buffalo or elephant is 458 Lott:).

[@garycrandall8649]

Great assessment BTW. Personally I've never hunted Africa and would love to, but, I've have hunted Alaska and have taken a brown bear. I have a 458 win mag in a Ruger No 1 and had my gunsmith bore it out to a 458 Lott for the same reason as Clifford Schorr stated below. I also have a CZ 550 American safari in 458 Lott; both calibers are known as "Crumpler's". Here in NW Montana where I live I hunt deer, elk and black bear and we also have a sizable population of (protected) grizzly's. I reload my 458's to meet my hunting needs and love hunting with cast bullets. When people ask me what I shoot my animals with, I tell them "wheel weight's" LOL. My-Fear-No-Evil Load is a Barns 450 TSX bullet w/ 80.1 grains of Tac, LR std primer @ 2,308 FPS (5 shot Average) and with 5,324 FPE for my 458 Lott ctg's. I could push them faster but why? I save the shorter 458 WM casings for 45-70 velocity loads. After firing a 458 WM in a 458 Lott, you'll need to use the 458 Lott sizing die if you reload do to the fact that the 458 Lott has a slight bottleneck chamber which is visible on the casings after sizing.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

I'll bet that 458 Lott HAMMERS the game you hunt! Haha! You and Clifford both have very good reasoning for using a .458 Lott and I can't fault you for it. Sounds like things are working out great for you guys with that cartridge.

[@garycrandall8649]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog They don't suffer..... wink Although I do love to cast bullet hunt. With cast bullets, you gotta go big on the caliber and down on the velocity. Since I'm a lead scrapper and don't get too involved in bullet alloy's, so I try to stick with wheel weight's as much as possible. I've found that I can generate higher velocity's by using a double gas-check method. This involves a 500 grain gas checked bullet backed up by four paper .45 cal cards .10 thick each and another gas check cup down on top of the powder sealing more of the gas pressure and not allowing much more of the hot gas to touch the bullet base. This seems to work well with cast bullets that completely fill the mold; especially the base of the bullet and are unsized or sized to .459. BTW, I shot my brown bear in AK with a .458 WM with a 500 grain Hornady soft point bullet loaded with 79.3 grain of Accurite 2230 @ 2,250 FPS (chonographed). That's one full grain above Max from the Hornady book. I hit it dead center of it's chest while it stood on all fours. The bullet traveled the entior length of it's body. And BTW, I subscibed to your channel because I think you know your stuff without the BS. Hope to hear more from your channel. Gary

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Thanks for subscribing! I'm glad you like my style!

[@MrGsteele]

Regarding muzzle brakes, the problem is that they divert gases rearward, in an attempt to lessen felt recoil. That produces adverse consequences on both the shooter, and the shooter's nearby hunters or range companions. The real problem with dangerous game rifles, however, is not their recoil, which the muzzle brake is designed to address, but muzzle rise. Muzzle rise determines both return time to target, and target obscuration - which in dangerous game hunting can be the deciding factors in who eats whom. To help solve this problem, I had my .458 Magnum Mag-Na-Ported. It is also "Mannlicher" stocked to the muzzle - both to balance the weight of the rifle's very large, heavy, and steeply pitched rollover comb, and to add muzzle weight to counter muzzle rise. While the Mag-Na-Port's effect in recoil reduction (i.e. force directly transferred to the shooter's shoulder) was not as dramatic as a muzzle brake's effect would be, the effect on suppression of muzzle rise was excellent. For those not familiar with Mag-Na-Porting, narrow trapezoidal ports around 3/4" long (back when I had it done in the mid-'70's) are EDM machined from the outside of the barrel into the bore, near the muzzle - usually along either side of the front sight. High-pressure barrel gases are directed through those ports, upward and only slightly outward, as the rear of the bullet uncovers the inner ports as it passes on its way out of the muzzle. The effect on reduction of bullet velocity of the gas pressure drop is negligible, since the bullet is well into its travel. The effect on muzzle rise, however, is dramatic, because there are two upwardly-directed ports with gases jetting from the internals of the barrel almost directly upward. Moreover, the amount of noise and blast directed either backward or to the side is also negligible - completely at odds with the typical muzzle brake's effect. Those gases are directed essentially straight up, rather than backward and to the sides. Your ears, and those of your fellow shooters, will thank you. The perceived recoil is, indeed, lessened, as a result of two things: control over muzzle rise, and slight diminution of barrel pressure prior to the bullet leaving the muzzle, slightly reducing rearward-directed gas forces as the bullet clears the muzzle. That's nice, but in the heat of a dangerous game hunt, it isn't something uppermost in your mind as you pull the trigger at a charging grizzly or big cat. So, unlike the case with a muzzle brake, actual recoil reduction is a secondary issue when Mag-Na-Porting; the real benefit is the reduction in muzzle rise - so you keep visual contact with, and are back on target - for a follow-up shot, if necessary, and far more quickly. I've been very happy with the results, and have NO flinch when firing; there's just not enough perceived recoil to matter with the ported, heavy Mannlicher-stocked gun. And what recoil is present is more of a gentle (well, semi-gentle) push than a snap - which is what leads most people to develop a flinch. And a flinch affects accuracy, accuracy affects the incapacitation speed of the shot, and incapacitation speed again brings us back to who eats whom.

[@Almate3006]

I've used Normas 500 gr. Monometal solids on elephant in my 458 wm Cz safari magnum rifle at 2070 fps. It worked very well no problems.

[@mikewoolford]

Ok, thank you for wonderful insight and information! You asked for a comment so here it comes.. I am a PH from Zimbabwe currently living in Sweden and I shot my first Buffalo with Doctori at a Rifa course when a friend of mine, who later in his career was tragically killed by a Lion, wounded a second Buffalo due to over penetration with a .458 Lott. Eventually the wounded Buffalo stuck its head out of the bushes about 30 meters away and received a frontal brain shot, as it began to charge me, from my .303 which I was the only rifle that I owned at the time. I had been offered a .375 H&H Magnum made by Browning by a friend for this hunt but it didn't fit me and I didn´t have faith in it. Anyway, my carry weapon once I got my full licence was a ZKK 602 .375 H&H Mag that never failed me, all big game and small game. I then got a nice .458 Win Mag as a gratuity from a client and whilst hunting Hippo got charged and had a bullet deflect on a frontal brain shot and required a second shot which did the job but I lost trust in the rifle. So I sold it and used the .375 H&H Mag from then on. I have come into possession of a ZKK 602 .458 Lott now and am looking forwards to getting out there with it next season! Kind regards Mike

[@blackpowder4016]

Excellent presentation. One of the problem with the original ammo was it used a compressed load that caused the powder grains to stick together. There are many handloads available for .458 Win Mag that will exceed factory ammo spec. H335 can give nearly 2200 fps with a 500 gr bullet from a 24" barrel without a compressed load or excess pressure.

[@paulsimmons5726]

Having never been to Africa, I can only use my occasional observations of shooters on my local range. Every now and then, someone brings out one of the DG rifles in a larger than 375HH. I first thought they were not very accurate at 25/50yds. However, upon closer observation I noticed that the vast majority of the shooters began shaking like chronic drug users on their 4th day of going Cold Turkey as soon as they closed the bolt on their rifle… Huge rounds in shaking hands aren’t as effective as a smaller caliber that hits the exact spot it needed to. I’ve shot a few of the more common bolt calibers such as the 416Rem, 416Rby, and the 458WM. The 416’s were okay but the 458 seemed to have more recoil than the extra thump it delivered. I’ve got a M70 in 375HH, topped with a 1-4 scope and the recoil is more than a 30-06 but it seems like a hard shove rather than a fast snap. In other words, not unpleasant if you know how to shoot. I’d like to have a 416 just because of the extra amount of mass available in the bullets but 458 holds no interest. Before I’d spend the money for another rifle though I’d like to shoot a different 458 because so much of the recoil is in the design of the stock, not just the round itself. I enjoyed your video, thanks for posting! 1/31/23 Update - Having now watched this video a few times, I’m impressed with the amount of objectively presented materials and specs in this video. I’m still happy with my 375HH and enjoying the very manageable recoil. Again, great video!

[@dr.hugog.hackenbush9443]

I have a Interarms MK X in .458 Win Mag, and can shoot it all day since it fits me perfectly. I wouldnt mind a .458 Lott.

[@PeterLukeable]

My 450 Watts Magnum (similar to the 458 Lott) has accounted for 1 Elephant, 1 Hippo, 1 Cape Buffalo, 2 warthogs & 2 deer. The extra velocity helped on my 96 yard hippo shot.

[@bcbigfoot112]

Hunters here in BC Canada used the 458 win mag for emergency bush defense under 100m. Not for distance shots or regular hunting

[@brian5606]

The 458 win was hampered in the beginning in 1958 because of the poor bullet choice Winchester chose to use and of course the lack of bullet choices wasn't the best either in 1958 at the velocities the 458 win could muster. Now on the other hand the 458 lott bumped up the velocity enough and with the bullet choice Lott used seemed to over shadow the win 458 which was deemed a dangerous choice of a round when used on big teeth & big claw killing game. The 458 win today is a much different animal than was in the beginning, which I'd love to have a semi-auto using a Browning Bar Safari rebarreled and a reconstructed gas system from the 338 model into a 458 model of course with a brake

[@AndrewP-fj8rn]

I find my .458Win to be more than enough for any of the Whitetails in my area. And if I ever were to hunt the big stuff like Cape Buffalo I would never feel undergunned---just wouldn't use my Whitetail loads!

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Good deal. What loads do you use for whitetail with your 458?

[@Frog13799]

The best dangerous game cartridge is the one you can shoot accurately, draw my limit at the 404 Jeffrey

[@richardmeyer418]

Just something people may want to hear - the 458 Lott was actually preceded by a Canadian development of the 450 Watts - which was essentially the same thing. Since Watts wasn't famous, the cartridge wasn't well known. After Lott essentially reinvented it, and wrote about it, the 450 Watts vanished into smoke, but it was first and was the same thing. No idea whether Lott knew about the prior cartridge, but as a gun writer, he should have - but not going to start an internet witch hunt. Here in Australia, we have a shooting discipline call Big Game Rifle, and many shooters use yet ANOTHER 375 necked up to 458 - the 450 Ackley. Anyone knowing PO Ackley at all will guess that it is Ackley Improved and they'd be right - it has a straighter case with a small shoulder. The Ackley can fire the Lott and the standard 458 Win if necessary.

[@robertbridges517]

The design of the Lott was to fully allow use of regular 458 ammo as needed.

[@adamsredlines]

Recoil on the Lott isnt as terrible as I thought it would be based on reading off the web, but I am glad I held out for a No.1 in Lott. It's a novelty for me currently but as others state, has more versatility and capability. Some day I will hunt with it, but for now its just a fun beastly range toy.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Fair enough. Just out of curiosity, how heavy is your Ruger No. 1?

[@adamsredlines]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog Its a stainless/laminate variety and its 9 pounds 4 oounces

[@nicklewis7291]

I like the idea of going all out and getting the most powerful. But, getting that in the win mag is easier to do where I live. I'd like to eventually own both but, I would start with the win mag.

[@henryhaina9389]

I had to click the bell again for ALL!

[@johnmcnary3247]

This is malarky. The powder clumping problem was solved decades ago. Modern powders give the Win Mag performance beyond the old 450 nitro double rifle cartridge. Whats the point? Every PH knows the Win Mag will go through an elephant's skull. But then again, people sometimes prefer the 460 Weatherby.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Tell me you didn't watch the video without saying you didn't watch the video...

[@jennyjansen754]

The 458 lott is what the 458 win mag should have been all along.

[@richardshippful]

That was a very good descriptive video.

[@stacysetzer1343]

The win mag in 1956 when introduced it promised something it wasn't at the time capable of doing. Read the jack lott story. It was advertised doing around 2000 fps, when tested on several occasions it was not doing what was advertised it was more like 1700-1800 fps. There where lawsuits that where flying around fir false advertisements, but this day and time with modern powder the win mag can be a good cartridge.

[@abesvenom6573]

If I can shoot the 458 win in the 458 Lott rifle then the Lott is better to choose because then you can shoot that and or you can shoot the win mag into as well plus to that you can custom load your win buckets to suite your needs and still shoot them into the Lott rifle load them with swift bullits what ever and slide them into the lot rifle and shoot the shit off of anything. This way you have both worlds you can take both bullets with you to your hunt and one rifle that dose it all. That's what I came up with watching this video. I have a 458 win mag but after watching this video I am gettin my self a Lott rifle as well that way I am covered with one rifle.

[@zl1booker]

great info, thanks

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad it was helpful!

[@chaimaelabed111]

Case length .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is 2.850 in (72.4 mm). Case length .458 Lott is 2.800 in (71.1 mm). What was the point of shortening the case length by 0.05 inches.....

[@pauldeahl3980]

Get the 458 Lott and if you’re ever in a pinch for ammo you can always shoot the 458 WINMAG

[@brandonholsather2171]

I mean there is so many round that can actually work on cape buffalo but illgeal to hunt cape buffalo with still. The 7mm magnum would work. The 300 Winchester Magnum would work. The 30 06 was used a the time in the old days. The British 303 people use to use I Africa with success. I mean I don't get this all these covers won't work all sudden now days. A more insane gun to use on cape buffalo would be like 243 or standard sized handgun. A 44 magnum is not going to be taken off list people have taken everything with 44 magnum. I even saw a video of guy use 10 mm in Africa it took like 3 heart shots And he was a pro though.

[@fewdayschanda6221]

This is powerful gun how can I get one

[@MrJtin69]

As i commented earlier i had a 458 lott sold it in favor of a 460 weatherby mag much superior and with a big muzzle brake it doesnt feel more than a 300 win mag normal recoil 460 weatherby fun fact is only cartridge approved to hunt whales

[@erichermann7553]

So how does the .470 cal stack up against a full power load in .458 Lott as far as recoil goes where the .470 cal double is might a bit heavier

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

It all comes down to the exact details, but it should be really close. Both cartridges have a lot of overlap in their ballistics. The 470 uses more powder in many handloads, but the additional weight of the rifle also balances recoil out too.

[@brandonwilliams5124]

Thankyou posting this video great content and very informative. I'm actually looking in to having my 1917 Enfield chamberd to 458 win mag. Its already a beautiful done spotter and love the 30-06. Just want more knock down power.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@lawrencecardente533]

Could a suppressor be used on a 458 Lott?

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Potentially. I have a Banish 46 that I've used with my 458 Win Mag. Would probably work just fine with a Lott if you had the barrel threaded...

[@MrJtin69]

Just a custom 458 lott with a good muzzle break it ain't bad to shoot at all

[@troyandskyelar9588]

Give me the win mag any day.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Fair enough!

[@Winkler_B_Rudolf_1911]

If I was the president of whatever country in the world, I would equip my police units with bolt-action rifles chambered in .458 Lott, like for example the CZ 550, because no terrorist can withstand a shot from that, even when wearing the best body armor, or if they are using a vehicle to run over people, the 458 will stop it immediately if shot at the engine.

[@joshjohnson6163]

The debate between 458 Winchester and 458 lott is the same debate on whether you should shoot someone attacking you with a 38 special or a 357 magnum, both fire the same bullet just one with extra mustard behind it, both would probably work just fine, but like the 357 and 458 lott there is a tremendous advantage to being able to shoot either the long or shorter rounds through the chamber.

[@bearbait2221]

300gn or 350grain in the lott could break 3000fps maybe? I get 2500fps with light loads 2700fps hot in 458wm. PS i have never shot a 500gn in .458wm 500gn is just dumb lil pp compensating waste of lead. Unless ur in Africa than 500gn is just right. I'll take a fast 350gn over a slow 500gn any day of the week.

[@Thebiggamehuntingblog]

Why is 500gr bullet in a 458 Win Mag dumb?

[@bearbait2221]

@@Thebiggamehuntingblog 500gn in Africa smart any were else is dumb. I only hunt with .458wm 350gn and it drops any and all Alaskan beasts if there is any thing bigger this side of the dark continent that requires 500gn let me know. The 350gn lead core pushed to 2500+fps acts like a grenade in a bear it dumps all the energy and wont pass through. I don't shoot out too 300yards. With a 500gn 100yards would be max ranger and it drops like a rock. I feel that every 1 on youtube that shoots 500gn has "never" actually hunted with it or they would know how useless a slower heavier bullet really is unless you hunt in Africa. 500gn is just a youtube shooters range flexing lil pp compensating show peace. I actually kill shit with my .458wm. 99.9% of Lower 48ers with .458wm never shot anything other than human shaped paper than go eat at Mcshitsburger and talk about what pussys they are in there tac gear. I'm thoo cool you guythh did you see me thhshoot the big gunthhh guythhh?

[@Catgat37]

It is not always about compensating for a small pp. I don't have a PP.....I have a PPK/S. I am gonna get a 458 Lott Ruger No. 1 for the mere fact that ever since I was a kid, I wanted an elephant gun. I am not a hunter, but for some reason....I just wanted one. I have more than enough practical firearms in my life, that now I just want to collect weird and cool stuff.

[@weinerdog137]

No practical difference.