4k podcast: Why wireless charging for cars is pointless

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[@mikeselectricstuff]

Very hard to believe wireless can be anywhere near as efficient as wired - far more power conversion involved, and switching/eddy-current losses due to the higher frequencies

[@TheStopwatchGod]

Plus the battery pack is a few inches off the ground in a car, so the wireless charger either needs to raise to reach the coils, or vice versa with the car's wireless charging coils, which is another point of failure

[@NotAnonymousNo80014]

Of course it's not realistic, but that never stopped a true believer.

[@skataskatata9236]

yep, another big problem is: you need ferrites and copper in the road, and just on the floor of the car. copper gets stolen, ferrite is heavy and very brittle, will get damage from road debris. hopeless.. -- get a chargehanger.

[@FreedomIsNotGoingToBeFree]

Spot on! Also people worrying about cell and else causing EM emission. Those are nothing compared to a 100+KW radio tower below your car.

[@skataskatata9236]

yeAnother big problem is: you need ferrites and copper in the road, and just on the floor of the car. copper gets stolen, ferrite is heavy and very brittle, will get damage from road debris. hopeless -- get a chargehanger.

[@sadlogic]

I think premium brands in the future might add wireless charging to their cars as a convenience feature to set themselves apart from non premium brands, tell you "yes we will install wireless charging at your home for free" and hide the cost in the cars price.

[@fleecystheking]

…and then Kia will add it as standard equipment on its best trim levels, just like it does for just about every feature luxury cars have as options 😂

[@879cc]

There will be also a simple and more efficient automatic mechanic solution, keyword is matrix connector

I think the charging companies might like wireless charging. I talked to an Ionity service man, and the common problems are all around the cable and the connector. Dropped cables causing problems for example. So wireless charging could make a lot of economic sense for the charging companies I believe. But then they also need to be able to deliver about the same effect of course.

[@davidmccarthy6061]

It would be easy to have them throughout parking structures and home garages, if all the car brands would implement it. Probably a whole new standards war to do that.

[@chrisp7839]

Problem with wireless is that with a plug, it just goes in. For wireless, it's important to park the car in exactly the right place to get the best charge rate. I like to be able to park my car in different positions on my drive, and with a 10m cable I can park anywhere it can reach. The example you gave of plug being heavy, and better wireless charging - the customer has to park exactly right probably harder than plugging it in.

[@ladonnalewis4296]

Perhaps for people with physical disabilities having wireless charging could help. Either that or an attendant who can help them.

[@nunolemos8070]

In big European cities with old buildings with no self garages, in a future scenario where the ICE cars are only 30% of the total vehicles, if all street parking spots had wireless pads, I think would be better than having cables and charging stations all over the sidewalks. But, your right, for now it makes no sense.

[@robert52429]

I think there are some aspects you completely overlooked or even misjudged: 1. The cost for bus clients could be cheaper, not higher as you mentioned, for wireless charging, because buses will need smaller batteries if combined with wireless charging on route. Taxis and buses have idling times waiting for their customers, and they can take advantage of that without getting out of the vehicle. If the Model Y LR has enough juice for one day of work, maybe a SR will as well, if combined with wireless charging, we are trying to also save the planet after all and make EV's more affordable, right? 2. There are many people living in apartments where they can't charge overnight like in a home, they have cars parked outside and it's maybe not too much space for bringing in 100 charging stations in one parking lot, also it will become crowded, there will be risks, it will be prone to people tripping on them, cars hitting them, or be vandalised during the night while it's not used or while you charge(not everyone is as civilized unfortunately), or maybe someone stops your charging on purpose, plugs their car etc. A maximum 7, 11 or maybe 22kw wireless pad, will solve these problems, keep things clean in the parking lot, save space and avoid small crashing incidents. 3. I don't know about maintenance with wireless, but for normal chargers most of the fails involve the cables, so I think that can be another advantage. 4. Right now the disadvantages are with the costs, which will for sure reduce in time and it's not like a DC 75kw charger is cheap. The speed is also limited, hopefully it can go up but it's not really that necessary if you use them only for city quick top-ups, or overnight charging, and busses or trucks can easily have multiple pads mounted. 5. I agree that hydrogen is dead for cars. Trucks and maybe planes in the future can benefit from it, because of their much higher energy density, for now, but that's it.

[@paultodd9301]

Wireless charging will be great for disabled drivers, such as the gentleman on "Warner's Wheeling about" KZbin channel - he's done many videos about the difficulties he faces trying to charge his electric Mini as he is a wheelchair user.

[@brottochstraff]

Im not so sure as you Björn. With plug-and-play handshake and wireless charging it could be really smooth to just park and walk way. No need to get your hands dirty, or if the charge port is frozen over like on Kia that has it in the front.

[@SyKik8]

yeah right, the less moving parts we have, the better

[@Martinko_Pcik]

Choice is a good thing. Cable is not optimal solution for all use cases. Once the wireless charging is cheap and fully developed i can see charging at home garage without a stupid cable. I am afraid this video will not age well- that's my hypothesis

[@60plus01]

Its a wave of stolen cables around Stockholm. If the charging was wireless you could have charged anyway

[@timseytiger9280]

Basically, if you are getting out of the car, plugging it in isn't an issue.

[@paultodd9301]

It can be for disabled people.

[@davidmccarthy6061]

It's just the induction pad in parking area could be cheaper without the worry of unit/cable/plug damage. Could be many places in 3-season regions and inside parking structures for winter zones.

[@bobwhit1544]

Right now there are only extremely cumbersome (for all) ways to accomodate wheelchair users at charging stations. Extra ramps, extra space translates to less flexibility and more crowding for all. Wireless charging solves the accessibility issue AND solves a compatibility issue. And in terms of efficiency, its about the same as a cable, they lose a lot of energy through heat and to power the cooling mechanisms to regulate the temps.

[@Tomaskom]

I fully agree that wireless is unlikely to become mainstream. However, there are sure to be numerous niche use cases - buses (needing smaller batteries if they can top up at many stops, making them cheaper and more efficient), maybe maybe some taxis (saves a little time on departure), but also stuff like car sharing with dedicated parking spaces, pizza and other delivery (where workers are in constant time pressure and return to base often). And quite likely autonomous vehicles, where wireless is much easier than any robotic physical connection (unless it's tall like a bus to use the overhead contact).

[@phonehoppy]

Another great analysis by Bjørn here. Thank you! The world of EVs is full of great solutions for non-problems. To me, battery swap is one of them, but also wireless charging and of course "ultra-fast" refuelling by using hydrogen fuel cells etc. Just consider that for most cars other than Tesla on Tesla Superchargers, not even Plug&Charge will work reliably, how should CPOs manage to even do activation and billing on a charge point wirelessly?

[@mr.e-wheel]

Bjørn I think you forgot about robotaxi. In the future when the car can be full autonomous, there will be no driver who could plug in the car to charge 😅.

[@aqm1992]

When the weather is bad ie. Rain/snow/cold temperature the wireless charger is convenient. Also no more random parking just to plug in 😅.

[@berthogendoorn2133]

Toyota showed wireless charging on the run (embeded in the highway) that maybe a great option, imagine having the wireless charging strips on major routes at similar locations as Tesla chargers are situated (with enough length to add about 12 minutes of charge), could be very interesting, I see Tesla is messing around with the tech!

[@mikecounsell]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Sorry 😂😂😂

[@tedybdahl]

I think a wheelchair user would be very happy with wireless charging. Especially in winter when the cable is frozen in the charging port.

[@iangardner2311]

I would like wireless charging on highways. Allowing for small battery cheaper cars. To road trip. Maybe even tow trailer.

[@CTPI192]

Maybe instead of 100 kWh batteries you could use 20 kWh batteries and have some roadways covered with charge pads to charge as you drive along. Maybe 10% of roadways.

[@alanvicentini7712]

No problem in plugging the cable, only problems is with slow chargers where you need to take out your cable.

[@helmuttrzoska4572]

Parking and hitting the right point will be quite difficult. Camera underneazj the car? Like Volvo has shown?

[@CliffordRutley]

Yeah I now have an MG4 64kwh. I only need it for local errands and I sometimes only charge it once a week. In fact, I haven't needed to use another charger apart from my home charger once yet.

[@ChrisBarnes199]

Plugging in each time I get home is not a problem at all. I am more interested in the wireless charging in the highways would let you charge while you drive.

[@ZleFox]

it can make sense in more cases if the technology is cheap enough to put it in every car. Also if there is an unified standart. Like automated parking. For taxi drivers it would be convenient if they are charging while waiting for a client, and then not to waste time to unplug. But these cases are so niche and depend on having the technology already being cheap and widespread, that it is not worth it.

[@Te0gop]

I see the future in touchless (but not wireless) charging with some kind of docking station underneath the car, may be.

[@GaryJohnWalker1]

In towns and even suburbs many park on the road. Or just have an allocated parking spot with little chance of stringing cables to it. Inductive charging would make sense. The hand shake to authenticate authorised vehicles would be 'trivial'. Efficiciency can be decent - needs the two sides to party and stray leccy doesn't go off in all directions.

[@Sashquatsch]

I live in a farm and it has dirt creeping up all over. Cables are going to get so dirty so fast my wife will not charge the car. Wireless charging would be very convenient for us.

[@propergander8509]

I can see wireless charging cars be really cool when it is built into highways, especially for trucks, but budget EVs with small batteries could do longer trips more easily. You could even make the argument that it’s cheaper to build a wireless charging road once and have lighter cars with smaller batteries rather than repaving it every few years because everyone drives around in 2.000kg cars

[@brandonokeeffe1193]

Apparently the 2022 Genesis GV60 has wireless charging hardware installed in the korean market Bjorn seems to be looking at this the same way as Tesla looked at solar on the roof of cars as a replacement instead of an addition, if you are going on a roadtrip trying to get from A-B as quickly as possible it doesnt make sense, but if you are going to be shopping for an hour or more, 75kW is more than enough Next time you go to the shops, imagine their is a post for every parking spot, how much harder would it be to navigate the carpark, when it is full it wouldnt matter, but what about when empty? Wouldnt be able to drive through a spot to the other one as there would be a post in the way, what about people towing, will they need special car and trailer only spots as they wont fit in a single space

[@807800]

So, you would add extra cost to the car and the charger itself. I don't people would ever pay that extra cost just to save a few seconds.

[@nicolasfourmon]

Well, I see at least one reason of using wireless charging for EVs. In an ideal world where big roads and highways could charge EVs while driving (perhaps not all lanes, only one could suffice), most people would be ok having a "small" battery for everyday needs as long as they can go punctually far running on those lanes during their holiday trips for instance. Also, this would allow to contain EVs overall weight and price and reduce the need of developing tons of huge supercharger stations that might be crowded during holidays. I know it's a bit of an utopia as there are probably many limitations as of today that makes it more difficult to go the wireless way than the wired one, but as a user, that's how I'd love to see the future of electro-mobility.

[@alfaeco15]

Plugging and unplugging is a minor hassle, but having to do everytime I park the car in the garage it becomes soon an annoyance. My ICE car when parking I don't need to do anything. Just leave or enter the car.

[@bjornnyland]

But you have to drive a detour, open fuel cap, refuel, close fuel cap and then pay for the fossil juice.

[@alfaeco15]

@@bjornnyland But I only need to do that once per two weeks, filling up the tank. With electric car I need to plug and unplug it every day when I park it in the garage of my home.

[@larslysdahl4586]

An advantage with wireless charging in winter is that you don’t have the snow/icing issue I would guess. But overall I agree

[@MrDraedd]

The Plug&Charge technology that already exist inside the CCS standard can solve all problems with apps. And it is the perfect world of the future. Of course with the roaming for charging everywhere.

[@supamario3055]

Cable charging is fine IF you have a well-lit sheltered station. If you were somewhere that had no shelter and it was dark, stormy with strong wind and rain, then see how much you wish for inductive charging.

[@supamario3055]

@@logitech4873 Because charging is always a quick seamless process..

[@brandonokeeffe1193]

​@@logitech4873 Kim Java has a video testing the breakaway adaptor for Tesla's where she had a guy hanging around her car and she said she felt unsafe, without the breakaway adaptor she would have had no choice but to get out to unplug if she needed to leave quickly as the car stops you from being able to drive while plugged in

[@supamario3055]

@@brandonokeeffe1193 Thanks for the heads up on the interesting video and device. You assume and hope to never need such a device, but imagine needing it and not having it. I was also going to mention that induction charging is safer because it facilitates a quick getaway if the need arises.

[@ericgold3840]

Most of Bjorn's criticisms are probably solvable by tech advances and scaling. I suggest framing the question this way: if wired and wireless were the same cost, which would the spouse not really committed to EVs and focused on convenience choose ? How about that same spouse in the winter who is cold, has kids to deal with, and stuff to carry ? Yeah

[@SocialMedium-gn8ft]

Wireless charging might be okay for home use. I dont think it would work in public areas.

[@berthogendoorn2133]

Tesla is going to streamline the wireless charging on the vehicle, that maybe and easy / lazy way of doing home charging.

[@peterzerfass4609]

Profits on public charging are already razor thin. Adding an expensive unit and more losses will just mean charging will be more expensive. Whether the end user will tolerate this is anyone's guess. In the end: what is the hassle? You're getting out of the car anyhow. With batteries getting cheaper (and bigger) the use case for recharging something like a bus will also not be an issue.

[@brandonokeeffe1193]

What is the cost difference between putting in the post to the wireless charging pads, what is the maintenance costs between the two? Out of spec showed a charger that was listed as working with exposed contacts and one with the lock broken so it could be pulled out while the car is still charging(can't remember if same cable but was same location)

[@jorgmethfessel5774]

battery capacity and range is good enough for normal cars to not hassle around with hydrogen - other vehicles like trucks are a different story. im not sure about wireless charging, it feels too inefficient compared to a wired connection. it will work for sure but you need to have also the infrastructure (garage, public parking) which is not cheap to build and you need to automaticly recognize the id of (all) the car(s) for paying (like teslas supercharger)

[@londonwestman1]

I agree with much of what Bjørn says but I think there are a couple of points.. * There are problems with plugging in: alignment - think Bjørn has mentioned this in some videos; heavy, chunky cables; damaged connectors; hatch not opening (?Ioniq 6); connector not releasing; rain and dark; women's safety; and the one I've perhaps had most often - is it the app first, the card first, or the connector first; did I plug in too soon or too late? * And the other point regarding Hydrogen... Wireless charging might work some day; Hydrogen is a total, utter dead end for cars and just a complete greenwashing con.

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

What if all the spots in a supermarket or mall car park were equipped with wireless charging? You park you tell an app which spot you are on and you charge while doing your shopping... would help people living in high rises... i mean even if you live in a high rise you should have private parking so you could also mount a wall box and charge whenever you like... but in many places that is still not the case... also i do have issues with current charging hardware... i think its nowhere near mature... i think there is no "Apple" solution to charging... NACS would go a long way but thats an uphill battle as well

[@vdivanov]

Don’t think Momentum Dynamics or InductEV as they are now called will invite Bjørn again for a demo 🤪 But perhaps they should as they failed to convince him last time.

[@yvs6663]

ugh. EU just needs to pass a law that says that every charger out there needs to have a set "non paid member" price per kWh regardless of how its accessed. so if someone already has an RFID from a partner network or one of the universal apps, the price should be the same and they shouldn't have to install an app from the network. idealy, the same price should also apply for contactless payment and payment via websites if such a thing is possible.

[@ora10053]

Plugging in is a problem only if you are stopped but can't exit the car. Maybe on some short ferries where you stay in the car it might make sense. Hard to think of other use cases. Perhaps car wash?

[@bjornnyland]

Charging and car wash? Really?

[@ora10053]

@@bjornnyland well if it is inductive - what could possibly go wrong? :D But anyway it is like 5 minutes, won't make sense either.

[@juanvga]

If i go to a charger in winter and dont want to get out of the car... wireless is the solution

[@canoeinginthewild]

I think maybe wireless charging road ( highways) Could maybe make sence😮

[@hermanbes200]

Bjorn bro you are right. it is unnecessary and extra expensive

[@aaronwilliams1249]

The only place I could see where wireless charging might make sense is for a robotaxi where there's nobody to plug it in. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth it. Not only does it add a fair bit of expense, it also increases the weight and consumes space under the vehicle.

[@brandonokeeffe1193]

Or just regular taxis on a rank where they can recharge without needing to unplug and plug in everytime they move forward and removes the trip hazard of cables

[@aaronwilliams1249]

@@brandonokeeffe1193 As was said in the video, taxis rarely run out of charge. They typically don't drive all that far.

[@brandonokeeffe1193]

@@aaronwilliams1249 he literally said about 9:03 that it might make sense for a taxi driver, also it doesn't take any more time to plug in your phone, but people still prefer wireless Either way, how about we look at it from a safety standpoint, imagine you were at the supercharger that the person shot and killed someone over the charger spot, do you want to be jumping out of your car to unplug or stuck sitting in your car hoping they leave you alone or do you want to be able to just gtfo?

[@aaronwilliams1249]

@@brandonokeeffe1193 How's that any different than filling a gas car. There's also a solution for people who are paranoid like you about that, a breakaway adapter for Tesla. And later he talks about how it doesn't even make a lot of sense with taxis because they don't need to charge while working. Inductive charging is expensive and adds weight and it usually is not very efficient. You also now have something hanging down under the car for charging that's more likely to get damaged, and the more power it handles, the heavier and more expensive it will be. And I don't care what sort of BS WITricity claims. The EE in me is screaming that the big air gap destroys any efficiency and really impacts the magnetic flux, the same if the two halves aren't perfectly aligned either. And even then, the charging speed is generally quite low compared to plugging in, under 10KW and closer to only 3KW. As someone who charges their EV, it takes me 4 seconds to plug in and 4 seconds to unplug at 19KW at home or only a little longer at a supercharger at 250KW. There's a huge difference between an induction charger and a DC fast charger. If you're a stopped taxi driver, 3KW is only about double plugging into a 15 amp 120V outlet (1400 watts). A couple of minutes on a fast DC charger will do as much as an hour on one of these with a taxi.

[@jeffweingrad4658]

I can see cities with public utilities installing these on main.....perpetually congested roads installing them. I learned a lot living in a few American cities. They would $love$ this revenue stream. American states are already selling drivers license data to telemarketers in places for one example. I can really see it. Imagine the city council with a public utility replacing the gas stations. And it'll be great for renters, etc.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

I agree with you Bjørn, wireless charging for EVs is a solution in search of a problem. The only possible change would be if fully autonomous, and I mean fully autonomous, EVs hit the roads. That is at least 10-20 years into the future and they will still likely need human staff to check-in/check-out the vehicles, inspect, clean, and plug them in to charge.

[@brottochstraff]

If you would use a camera with shallow DOF you could blur out the windows schumts much better :D Just focus it to infinity in fron of the car.

[@alien1813]

For trucks wireless charging would be handy. Truck could stop at the truck stop for mandatory 11 hour break and start with full battery 👍

[@bjornnyland]

Truck drivers need to take a break after 4.5 hours of driving.

[@alien1813]

@@bjornnyland After 4.5 h they need 45 min, and after next 4.5 h they need to take 11 h break (it's normal break, but you can have 9 h occasionally). I know because I am a truck driver for over a decade now 😁

[@aaronhodgman]

But they can just plug in and it's the same.

[@alien1813]

@@aaronhodgman It's not the same. Let me explain. Each truck has a device that records the driver's activity (tachograph). When I drive, the "driving" icon is displayed. When I start a break, I have to change the icon to "break". Everything else I do on the truck, on the load, must be done on the "work" icon. For example, refueling. Plug in and unplug done by the driver could be considered as "refueling" and "work". That's why wireless charging is better, because all you have to do is park on top of it, change the icon to "break" and relax. No further action from the driver is required. I hope this helps.

[@MKTED62]

it will be a lot better when all EVs hold around 700 kilometres... that I think will be good enough my Id3 when I picked it up new had 411 kilometres on the range I have never been able to get that again now at 100% it says 386 real world driving means 340 at best...

[@tridruankham2657]

❤❤❤

[@tridrean]

♥♥♥

[@ohyesitsme]

It would be great for disabled people

[@mdshovel]

Consider disabled use ... and my 72 year old wife is not going to build muscle in a gym 😀

[@robertm8380]

They could have both plug-in and wireless. If the cable is broken at the charing station then you still can charge wireless. The later future wireless will get faster for cars when technology improves

[@POolBacK]

The only situation where wireless charging "might" make sense is on Electric Roads. If you can recharge while driving on main roads, it could enable cars to have smaller batteries. But I'm really not confident about cost of installation and maintenance of electric roads like that.

[@yvs6663]

the whole road that charges car is just another attempt to rid us from the evil of having to charge for 20 min on an 7h trip that the best of todays EVs would be capable of. i reckon it would just be expensive as hell. roads are made from cheap and durable materials and its already expensive to maintain them. so putting fragile electronics in them is a no go. as for the aim to have smaller batteries: the original Ioniq is proof that a car doesn't need a huge battery to be a reasonably decent car for long distance travel. it just takes efficency and decent charging speeds.

[@andyjdhurley]

I seriously doubt this will ever make economic sense but I can see relatively slow inductive chargers in car parks so that EVERY space in the car park gives you a bit of charge while you are off doing something else. Destination chargers are great but can you really imagine every car user going to the trouble of plugging in every time they park? I can, however, see them using a car park that gives them a few miles of range while they are shopping without having to do anything. Add to that street parking spaces for people without a driveway. In both cases they don't have to be all that fast 7kw would be fine.

[@skataskatata9236]

wireless charging is only good for one and only situation: it is for a startup to get juicy subventions from Germany. --get a chargehanger...

[@bartosz257]

I like the idea of charging streets/roads, where cars are charged during driving. There are some test roads and testing grounds. But maybe it's not the future. We will see.

[@oskarzgoa8428]

Charging with cable is not a problem, even for my wife who is not a strongwoman 😉

[@s.kxx1956]

Its absolutely nonsense

[@brandonokeeffe1193]

Is it nonsense for phones? Are you saying if their was a wireless charger and a wired charger next to each other you would choose the wired charger 100% of the time? If it was freezing cold or pissing down rain you'd pick the wired charger every time? If you had the option of reverse summon and getting the car to drive itself to the wireless charger and recharge you'd still go to a wired charger to plug in and walk to the shop?