£500m Hitachi Rail new trains deal for Lumo & Hull Trains - is it in confiict with renationalisation

[@jimmaggs8183]

Thanks for all of your hard work, (including Steph) & the interesting content. Always a pleasure to listen to & hear the views of fellow pro rail supporters including professionals, past & present.

[@GreenSignals]

Thans so much Jim and for the Super Thanks. Very much appreciated.

[@andrewhotston983]

Train construction in the UK has flipped between boom and bust more times than I can remember. The only constant trend has been for trains to become less and less comfortable.

[@grenfellroad8394]

A few years ago I had a conversation with a lady at Paddington station. As you may (or may not) remember, I’m a driver on GWR. We were waiting for the Flying Scotsman to come in on one if it’s lunchtime Pullman tours around the south of England, and was a little late into the station. The lady said ‘why is my train always late?’ I said ‘what do you mean by always late?’ She replied ‘every day my train is 2 or 3 minutes late into Paddington.’ I asked ‘where are you travelling from?’ ‘Maidenhead.’ Was her reply. I then said, ‘get in your car in Maidenhead, and tell me please what time you’re going to arrived in Praed Street, at the entrance to Paddington Station.’ Her: ‘I don’t know.’ Me: ‘Why can’t you tell me?’ Her: ‘well, it depends on traffic, the weather…’ Me: ‘Ok, but every 15 minutes you can board a train at Maidenhead, and we get you here, within 3 minutes of when we tell you we’ll get you here. If you’re on the M4 heading for London and there’s a breakdown or accident, what do you do? You leave the motorway at the next exit, use the rat-runs, cut through the villages, and get to where you’re going. We can’t do that, there are two lines into London, and two lines out. If they’re blocked or broken we have to get everything on the other line or wait for it to be sorted.’ She said ‘I’d never thought of it like that. I’ll not worry in future.’ It’s all in the perception of what 2-3 minutes late means. It only takes a ramp being put down for a wheelchair user or someone on crutches, or 300 people all trying to get down the platform steps to cause 2-3 minute delays that we then get ‘please explains’ for.

[@91Durktheturk]

@@grenfellroad8394 This is very true. And in the morning peak, with so many trains coming into the mainline stations, these small delays are almost inevitable. It would be interesting if someone would compare the town to city journey times for train and car to demonstrate how much more reliable rail actually is.

[@domtweed7323]

I have some sympathy with the woman. Delays are generally preventable with level boarding (no more wheelchair ramps), wider doors for people getting on/off, and better line maintenance. The problem is underinvestment

[@typhoon-7]

I agree with the premise of your well-trodden argument (I have used it many times myself. I've been on the railway a quarter of a century now) but when 2-3 mins turns into 5-7 mins as it so often does, and we all know this. Late trains breed late trains due to getting out of paths etc... Then all of a sudden you're into missed connection territory. Fine if your journey is just Maidenhead to Paddington but if it's Maidenhead to Perth then all of a sudden the 2 connections planned are in doubt and your actual arrival time could easily be an hour out of sync. And if it's a different operator, we rarely hold connections any more unless it suits the recovery plan. Also, one of the reasons people choose train is exactly the precision with which you can plan your journey. There is always a give and take with the roads. The railway SHOULD be able to fulfil the promises made by the timetable. That's our job.

[@NewCityMedia]

Yes, after a lifetime of rail travel and 20 years of long-distance commuting where single journey times were approaching two hours in length, I used to get fed up with the moaners who used to get agitated at a 5 or 10 minute late arrival time. This showed an ignorance of all the elements which needed to come together to stick to booked time.

[@marionbloom1218]

People will always complain about the trains being late because they are caused by someone else. The fact that the alternative is much worse in terms of unpredictability never occurs to them! It's human nature, best to just be deaf to it!

[@mikehindson-evans159]

Catching up after a week away; excellent analysis of the Open Access approach - very sensible and realistic. Fascinating FG interview on OA; nicely done. I missed the "running order" in the summary. This "tme for each item" makes it easy when skipping back through "past issues" to find an article.

[@andrewhotston983]

Very interesting discussion of the figures in the ORR compendium. In a future episode please, please do an item on the staffing issues - this morning at Cheltenham eight out of the nineteen trains on the board were cancelled. That's disgraceful. GWR were in such disarray they were advising people not to travel!

[@marionbloom1218]

Thanks!

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks so much Maion. Much appreciated.

[@TheFrogfather1]

I've been on the Mail Rail train but had no idea it was battery powered. It's certainly very small, particularly for tall folk like me! Well worth a visit if you're in London.

[@paulroberts9570]

Very interesting points on lumo discussion In an era when the railways are going back to government running There expanding open access and taking the revenue risk Interesting times thanks for another fantastic programme

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Paul! Not entirely sure they are taking the whole revenue risk though. Abstraction is a big number......

[@rpmillam]

Sounds like Blackpool heritage trams need to apply for open access.

[@RWL2012]

This needs to be pinned 😆

[@watcherzero5256]

There is some secondary issues with depot storage and movement capacity but the primary reason for ceasing passenger operation with them is they are required to be fitted with automatic braking in the event of SPAD and Overspeed like all the other tram fleets in the country are currently receiving post Croydon, and no ones worked out how they are going to do that to analogue vehicles primarily made of wood whose hotel power and controls are operating off a 24v battery independent of their traction feed. They dont have enough electricity capacity to operate more low voltage equipment on top of what they are already operating, and they don't produce a high voltage feed for electronics.

[@GreenSignals]

Now that is really interesting. Have those changes post Croydon been mandated then?

[@watcherzero5256]

@@GreenSignals The RAIB report into the Sandilands derailment had 15 recommendations about improvements all systems had to make as well as the creation of a safety body for the industry. A new Light Rail Safety and Standards Board (LRSSB) was founded similar to the RSSB, though with a slightly larger remit than the RSSB. It sits under the industry trade body UKTRAM with ORR providing oversight of the LRSSB work.

[@ChrisExley-sk1fh]

Thanks

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Chris - really very much appreciated.

[@melonusk234]

If capacity is so restricted on the network, why are Open Access operators not made to run trains with as much seat availability as possible, as well as increased provision for cycles and additional luggage?

[@GreenSignals]

An interesting question.....

[@GeoffSimmons-fw6tf]

Hi Stef, Richard an Nigel. Another excellent informative programme. Thankyou. Also it's arrive today and what a stunner it is. That the mug of course!

[@GreenSignals]

Delighted that the mug has arrived safely and that you like it Geoff!

[@KellinoRail]

On the subject of photography of people on the tracks. Many years ago I used to be a secondman at the Midland Railway Center. On one trip we came around a corner and found a model and photographer taking photos on the track. Despite only doing the line speed of 25mph it was surprising just how long it took for their actions to take place. The photographer jumped for his life leaving the model to fend for herself. She did jump, but it was close, we really thought for a second that we had 'one under'. Our driver had applied a full brake application and we came to a stop a short distance from them at which point our driver let go with 'both barrels' verbally. Their claim was that they thought the line was closed... The one that I find even more shocking though is the train driver in Germany who actually shoots pictures of models on fast mainlines. I'm sure he will say that 'he knows exactly when trains are due', but that ignores the far more deadly consequences of what he is promoting!

[@GreenSignals]

"We thought the railway was closed" is the weakest excuse ever. Idiots.

[@NewCityMedia]

Great episode guys. I know there are some opposing views, but I am pleased to see the expansion of open access, especially Lumo. It has proved itself worthy on the East Coast route, which I use a lot, the only downside being the ludicrous bar on stopping at York due to LNER's sensibilities, but the thought of a service to Manchester (Victoria) from London (Euston) is a great decision. I look at open access rather like the effect Chiltern from Marylebone to Birmingham has had on Avanti from Euston to Birmingham, neither open access operators, but healthy competition and a sensible fare structure has ensued.

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks! But the challenge is and will remain abstraction. Open Access only works in that sense if the presence of the OA operator causes the entire market to grow such much that the incumbent operator (in this case LNER) sees its share grow by more than the abstracted value - otherwise, the OA operator has been provided with an indirect subsidy.

[@sidney001]

Like we need anymore shithatchi 800's on the network, hateful things. Perhaps these private operators will spec a decent interior with warm ambient lighting and colour scheme and seats that don't require a visit to the chiropractor at journeys end.

[@fndjfgsdk]

Class 800s are a prime example of why nationalisation on it's own will do nothing to solve any of the railway's issues.

[@91Durktheturk]

Indeed, I utterly despise these trainsets. More recent iterations, such as the Evero, are better, but it still is not good enough for a long distance train.

[@RWL2012]

As far as I'm aware, only the literal 800s and the LNER 801s and GWR 802s have the terrible seats with the collapsing issues. I've heard that later builds (including the Lumo 803s) have more comfortable seats. And I've travelled by 805 and 807, and my impression was very much an improved version of 80x.

[@BibTheBoulderTheOriginalOne]

I agree. I travel from Euston to Inverness 3-4 times a year. I would catch the sleeper northbound, conduct my business the next day, spend the night in a hotel in Inverness (I couldn't guarantee being finished in time for the return sleeper) then travel back on The Highland Chieftain the following morning, first class too. The HST back was always a pleasure, comfortable seats, nice ambiance etc. The introduction of the Azuma's marked the end of me travelling back by train. I now fly back.

[@physiocrat7143]

The entire concept of these trains is flawed. They can't be fixed. Bodyshell is too long, bay dimension is wrong. 21.5 to 23 metres is optimum, and bays should be 1.90 metres, same as the class 180.

[@brianbell4937]

Re Southend Pier, I believe one diesel train is kept for use when the battery trains are out of use. I believe I read somewhere that it was used in service not long ago.

[@Tarkaman1]

Re the trespass at Rye, there is no third rail there, but that is not to undermine the issue of how dangerous any railway trespass is.

[@screwdriver5181]

Why are the faces of the trespassers blocked out.? These people are committing a crime. If I robbed a bank my picture would be on every news broadcast. GRDP does not give immunity from the law.

[@GreenSignals]

Do you know, that's a very interesting question...... Must ask!

[@mikehindson-evans159]

There should be no anonymity for stupidity! Bring on the Darwin Awards... Possible pedantry alert!! It's GDPR - the General Data Protection Regulation. Did you mean to write "GRDP" in your comment? The Gross Regional Domestic Product (GRDP) is the aggregate of Gross Value Added (GVA) of all resident producer units in the region. It is an indicator that measures the size of the economy of the region. One gives a set of rules for handling data - the other tracks the UK's recent Labour-induced economic contraction!!

[@tomwood9401]

The North Yorkshire Moors Railway had to cancel Santa special services due to the carpark in Pickering and a tree blocking the main road into Pickering as the NYMR this year are running services from Pickering for Santa Specials this year

[@GreenSignals]

What was the issue over the car parking in Pickering Tom?

[@StuAnderson90]

Problem with first group is to Carmarthen and London to Motherwell section on the WCML it's basically a choice of first group or first group/trainatalia.. only competition is themselves.. like McDonald's opening a McDonald's next to a McDonald's

[@CheshireCars]

Well done chaps ❤🇬🇧

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks!

[@GDGRailway47712]

On last week's quiz ( I didn't watch until this week), didn't Clayton supply a battery locomotive earlier this year to go on a railway line that goes into a mine? It would be interesting to visit Clayton's factory.

[@GreenSignals]

I'm not sure though did we not say passenger railway? Will need to check - and yes, would be great to visit.

[@ethmister]

As the continent has shown is Public operators vs a nationlised operator is a good idea.

[@stuart48br]

France now has "open access" operators competing on its LGV lines (300kph) - Trenitalia on Paris-Lyon, RENFE on Lyon-Barcelona and soon Proxima to Bordeaux, and SNCF has created its own low cost operation OUIGO. Gives the lie to people who say that HS2 is only for business travellers.

[@ethmister]

First group are effectively wanting to run trains after GWR is nationalised by the looks of it.

[@wrangerrob]

How are rail replacement buses put on at a moments notice, ie vehicle's and drivers? Might be worth looking into. Yes please do visit Blackpool trams.

[@faircomment1841]

Office of Rail and Road - govt run. Labour probs took credit for the Hitachi deal on the basis that First Group choose Hitachi to expand their open access fleet.

[@peterpainter9429]

I sense the influx of applications for Open Access (OA) is as a consequence of a number of factors and uncertainties, (in no particular order), i) the change in the role of the private sector and public ownership, and the OA groups spotting an opportunity as a consequence of the new government/legislation, ii) the possibility that the Secretary of State (SoS) may at some point soon, once we have a Shadow GBR, be encouraged to issue new Directions to the ORR, such that it has to consider OA applications differently, and their impact on the Funds Available to the SoS - potentially making future/further OA more difficult, iii) taking advantage of the ORR positioning itself in advance of wider industry changes and legislation, and (ii)

[@roundhouses]

Interesting re your comment on complaining about rail services. I used to but due to either not getting any response or a very poor one due to a standard reply being send that does not relate to my complaint, I now no longer bother to complain. We now allow a lot more time for any connections especially with Thameslink. One recent trip we allowed 2 hours to get from St Pancras and Euston so we could either take our time getting breakfast if the train arrives on time or we can still make our connection. The downside often means that we have to buy a peak time ticket to get into London on weekdays.

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks - as Nigel said, that could be a factor.

[@tonychinnery]

The private sector of course is looking to cream off proffitable parts of the train system, leaving the loss making parts to go public, just as with the health service.

[@mikeuk4130]

Was Chris Fribbins at RLS starting in 1966, I wonder?

[@Sarlan2]

Yes correct Maersk not moving from Felixstowe to London gateway just because of the rail link. Did you know Maersk opened a new freight yard in East Midlands next to railhead there? Certainly a desire to use trains more than trucks for relocating containers from inland warehouses to ports and backforth

[@stuart48br]

I think that you mean Maersk ARE moving from Felixstowe to London Gateway.... Great news that they are opening a freight yard in the East Midland. Makes me think that the reduction in freight tonne-miles on the railway network since 2015 does not tell the whole story, and maybe wagon-miles might be a better measure to take account of the growth of intermodal freight

[@GreenSignals]

No, I think he meant exactly what he said. Maersk are not moving to London G just because of the rail link. In other words, they are moving but for a whole host of other reasons as well. Agreed though that it's good a new freight facility being opened in the Midlands.

[@MervynPartin]

If Blackpool's tram network is intended to provide a reliable transport system, then of course it must prioritise that over heritage tram tours, given that it is experiencing depot and maintenance problems. However, heritage trams are very popular (and remunerative) around the World for sightseeing and are really worthwhile if they can be incorporated without affecting the tramways primary function, which is moving vast numbers of people. Now, somewhat tongue in cheek, may suggest that the very large number of very large trees that have apparently fallen onto the WHR might solve their current fuel supply problem?

[@00Zy99]

Unfortunately, you can't really burn wood in a coal firebox, ESPECIALLY a 2' gauge one. That's really just asking for trouble.

[@AndrewRoberts11]

On ridership changes, post 2019, are there any stats by journey type: intercity, regional, urban, ... from before after, rather than simply by franchise?

[@GreenSignals]

Indeed there are. GBRTT have some excellent anaylsis on this.

[@geoffcross6529]

What we need is a large advertising budget to covince us that our trains have the latest space age scientific memory foam technology that makes you think that your seat is not hard and that your comfortable and that the price of your ticket is so much cheaper than it could be

[@jimmaggs8183]

I hope that First group are demanding a much improved product - better ride quality, better quality seats, more & bigger toilets, plus a buffet car?

[@DunnyRail]

One wonders what would be said by friends and relatives of those idiots at Rye walking on the track if 4 or 5 of them had been mown down by a train. Scary beyond belief.

[@GreenSignals]

Totally agree.

[@garyn4321]

Being a photographer this is one things that is really frustrating, Yes they look nice but way too much risk! Also saying about the Australian way over here is getting so stupid. Think you guys need to do a tour down under!!!

[@mikeuk4130]

With the First Lumo Open Access expansion plans following the Go-op/FGW/WSR plans for Wilts and Somerset, I feel really buoyed up at the moment. It’s a great contrast to the presently London-centric HS2 idea and the franchises-racing-each-other-between-a few-big-cities idea. It all looks so bright for so many people in so many places. I wonder……

[@physiocrat7143]

The 180 units would probably make excellent loco-powered push-pull sets. Presumably they will go for scrap.

[@wrangerrob]

They are operated by Grand Central and I think have regular corrosion issues.

[@adrianbaron4994]

I agree that the trespassing at Rye is idiotic, but it's symptomatic of the decline in intelligence and common sense that we seem to see all around us. Most of these invo;ved seem to think they are immune and can take pictures of each other with impunity. There's no third rail at Rye, however.. electrification ends at Ore.

[@GreenSignals]

Indeed so - no third rail at Rye - but as you say, idiotic behaviour nonetheless.

[@ethmister]

As the continent has shown is Public operators vs a nationlised operator is a good idea. Also If we can get Paddington Paington calling at Exeter for a reasonable price this will beat but SWR and GWR and get me using that.

[@GreenSignals]

Which is all fine but if exeter to paddington undercuts GWR / SWR without growing the total market (a bit like new supermarkets - they don't make the population buy more food, they just distribute the market to more people) then it's public subsidy. Which i accept for the passenger is irrelevant, but not for the total cost burden of the railway.

[@ethmister]

@GreenSignals To grow the SWR market they would first need to double the full line and run trains on time. Pretty much everyone on the West of England mainline is fed up of daily delays due to unacceptable single track of a mainline. Inadequate hourly services as well on very busy route. I'd very much love a cheaper service than GWR but wholly more reliable than SWR. Growing the market will be easy by simply being better than themselves

[@Samstrainsofficially]

If they did overnight provatisation it would likely not go so well, a bit of a pragmatic approach in allowing operators who have shown some reliability is fine and doesn't run counter to a long term gradual move towards public ownership and operation. The situation is very different to that which was found at the last nationalisation in terms of manufacture of rail vehicles and so much more. I doubt anyone is lying or being stupid just working in a realistic fashion towards a goal that is years and years in the making. When politicians act abruptly people spit the dummy, when they act pragmatically and think long term they're called liars or idiots.

[@andrewcowling5804]

It seems a shame that no British manufacturers can provide what the rail industry needs any more.

[@stuart48br]

The British manufacturers are now part of international groups, and that is the trend globally; Hitachi have made a large investment in UK to produce trains including bodyshell fabrication, and CAF and Siemens are doing the same. Few countries can produce trains in their entirety - China and Japan can by having closed markets.

[@avv397]

Will this new order mean an increase in five-car trains buzzing up and down the ECML and how will this affect paths on the still-not-yet-worked-out future ECML timetable, particularly in respect of freight paths? "Pass me a new pencil George, it's back to Plan Z . . . . " "2034 rollout anyone . . . ?"

[@MartinWard-ge9mv]

I travelled from St Erth (near Penzance) to Reading on an "ironing board" seat on a Class 8XX ICE train. Sorry to be cynical, but if these Open Access Operators are seriously looking to compete with the incumbent train companies they need to consider passengers (fare payers) and provide better quality seating in trains that it seems are being provided by the same manufacturer. As this is privately funded, and not appeared to be influenced by the Department for Transport, this should be possible.

[@cfb15jan]

I do understand why Hitachi is probably the only passenger train game in town, but Modern Railways, Ian Wlamsley has reently explained why seating is not wildly influential in the cost of Class 800s. So, indeed, why can't 'decent' seats be used by OpenAccess operators, even if it affects weight and thereby track access charges? It would be a serious sales virtue.

[@NewCityMedia]

I do have some sympathy with what you say, but believe me there is worse seating. Take the Class 700 Thameslink sets. These trains, often seen as just mainly serving South East commuters with relatively small journeys, actually cover lengthy routes, eg Bedford/Peterborough/Cambridge to Brighton/Horsham/Littlehampton with particularly uncomfortable seating, not to mention the wholly uninspiring internal nature of these Siemens built trains. Their Class 717 derivative used by Great Northern is almost identical, but is more than adequate for the short routes they ply, but for longer routes, the Class 700 is inadequate - a shame for such a useful network that has revolutionised North/South London travel with the 'new' tunnel into St Pancras.

[@bruceknights8330]

I travelled from Penzance to Paddington on 800s in October and confirm that they have dire seats. So much so that I won't be using the train next year for the same journey. It wasn't just me, all four of us in our group were squirming in discomfort after 30 minutes. They also seem very sluggish over the hills in Cornwall.

[@CheshireCars]

Agreed

[@marionbloom1218]

My understanding is that the trend to very thin padding on modern train seats is driven by the requirements for a minimum of smoke evolution in the event of a fire. Whilst the smoke generation of fabric and foam materials has greatly reduced in recent years, it's still the case that the less padding you have, the less smoke will be generated. There's probably an unintended safety benefit that by making the seats uncomfortable, people are less likely to travel so fewer people will be exposed to the risk!!!! Oh for the the days of comfort, when my bottom used to sink into the deep springs and horsehair padding of a Mark 1 seat!

[@rpmillam]

Lumo trains are they like the 1d a mile parliamentary trains?

[@1trebor2024]

Can they please put comfy seat in the new trains 🚆 ! Pretty please 🙏

[@1trebor2024]

Oh and aline the seat with the window many thanks 😊

[@gwrydd]

Omg he’s back!

[@Andrewjg_89]

Does that mean more Class 803s could be built for Lumo or Class 804 to be built that would be Bi-mode. With Grand Central to order new Bi-mode trains to replace the Class 180 Adelentes and Class 221 Voyagers.

[@GreenSignals]

I believe the plan is bi-mode so they have a pretty homogenous fleet.

[@Andrewjg_89]

⁠Ah ok. Thanks anyways 👍

[@MercenaryPen]

I think Richard possibly ought to take a look at how Open Access works over in Europe where there is a lot more of it... after all, if there is political necessity to align with european standards, we might see a change in how open access works to better match that model

[@heathershone7804]

Open Access for the German Government to still make billions out of us, to give the German people cheap rail fares

[@dkbmaestrorules]

How does it work in Europe? I'll give you a clue, the answer begins with "c" and ends with "apacity"...

[@91Durktheturk]

@@dkbmaestrorules It depends on how you look at capacity. If you look at the recent ORR rail finance data, you'll see that the loadings on open access TOCs are very high. So the paths they have, are used very intensively in that sense.

[@watcherzero5256]

Most European regular timetables are barebones which makes it easy to slot Open Access services in between as there is loads of untapped capacity. UK by contrast really pushes the infrastructure to its limit.

[@MercenaryPen]

@@watcherzero5256 and yet there are cases where this is not the case- for example in Germany where capacity is overstretched to the point that they are having to shut down entire routes for months to rebuild with overdue capacity improvements

[@babufrik8112]

Bad news for the people of Wales if First group Lumo just do a copy and paste job of what’s currently offered by GWR in terms of facilities. East and west coast mainlines get buffet cars selling hot food and sandwiches but the GWML will soon have two TOC’s only providing a trolley selling cakes and snacks at best. So much for competition and improving on what’s already offered. Wales and west needs an alternative to First group. I can’t see nationalisation improving anything GWR offers if that’s the bar set by First group over the last 20+ years.

[@Wacky_Races]

Gross stupidity of more 5 car trains running intercity routes. And giving one manufacturer too much of the market. Stretching capacity. Longer and fewer trains.

[@screwdriver5181]

It’s symptomatic of rip off Britain. When I go to Germany or Switzerland and see 20 coach trains it , it makes me very envious! Even in the 1940’s the “London trains” through Macclesfield often had 14 coaches.

[@GreenSignals]

There may well have been 14 coach trains to Macclesfield, but I think you will find there were fewer of them. An hourly - Manchester in 1980 meant 12 coaches (let's say - although it may have been fewer). 3 per hour today with an 11 car Pendolino even allowing for leading vehicle issues means (for example) 3 x 10 = 30. So considerably more than a doubling per hour.

[@andrewhotston983]

​@@GreenSignalsLonger, less frequent trains would require fewer staff, and staffing seems to be "too difficult" for many train operators these days.

[@Wacky_Races]

@@andrewhotston983 I don’t think the railway learnt from the Virgin Trains Operation Princess debacle. Replacing perfectly good HSTs (plenty of capacity, luggage space and proper restaurant car) with those utterly dire 4 (unbelievably) and 5 Voyagers. Then we moan about over crowding, lack of luggage space and dire onboarding catering. We still live with the legacy (thanks to Virgin), feel very sorry for the poor passengers on Cross Country - awful trains for long distance). We haven’t progressed at all. But I am sure there will be an award ceremony. The railway is good at giving itself a pat on the back no matter how awful the passenger experience is. Voyager’s need to be scrapped and a decent train order. Class 47 with some mark 3s. Would still be an improvement over class 220/1s!

[@andrewhotston983]

@@Wacky_Races Agree 100%

[@Adam-pk2te]

I don’t think first group buying new trains for their open access operations is in conflict with re-nationalisation of operations of the former franchises as they always stated they had no issue with Open Access where it adds value. Open access aren’t contracted to provide a service, they pay for access, usually to abstract not always tho, instead of public money going direct to private companies or international arms of foreign state railways to operate regular trains. The real question in my opinion is how will the two current and third proposed WCML open access operators affect capacity and what’s going to be done to address it? On Hull, I like them but I’ve never seen it explained why a regular LNER service (currently nonexistent) couldn’t achieve the same? Poor attempt at a Gotcha, still not beating the bias allegations.

[@EdgyNumber1]

Guys, what's the situation with regard to the 'welding crisis?' I read that 9 HS2 bridges have been affected by this.

[@GreenSignals]

Don't know. Will need to ask. Was not aware.

[@jimmillington8299]

The more Open Access, the better, imho. Customer-focused, with management able to manage. The future could see whole service groups move to the OA model, depending on how GBR performs. With regard to ORR performance stats: the mass cancellations due to Network Rail closing down in the face of forecasts of bad weather should be included. If they were, NR would account for 80%+ of the total. Finally, a month ago Louise Hague told the HoC Transport Committee that nationalisation would remove the 'dozens and dozens of lawyers' who squabble over delay attribution. The reality is slightly different. An FoI request to Network Rail revealed that in 2022/23, not a single delay incident required the attention of a lawyer! It's hilarious that senior Labour politicians believe all the dross they are fed by the rail unions!

[@GreenSignals]

So you are OK with the taxpayer picking up the relevant abstraction cost? I do think it's a curious stance for open marketeers to take!

[@jimmillington8299]

​​​​@@GreenSignalsI'm not really a free-marketeer. But I yearn to see an efficient and customer-focused railway, and have zippo faith in this government's reforms to deliver that. The next government is highly likely to see Reform exerting real influence. So GB Rail needs to be ready for Ministers who are determined to implement really radical policies, with a "go ahead and strike" attitude to the unions, that will make Sunak's approach look like a tea party...

[@andrewrturtle7231]

Not wanting to split hairs, but the foot crossing misuse at Rye, whilst brain-dead behaviour, does not carry a third rail electrocution risk as that stretch of line is non-electrified.

[@GreenSignals]

You are absolutely correct about the lack of third rail. Still stupid behaviour mind you!

[@andrewrturtle7231]

​@@GreenSignalsabsolutely no argument there!!! 🙂

[@garthcox4307]

Open access is common in much of Europe, on nationalised networks. Surely common sense will trump dogma even with the current lot......

[@KellinoRail]

Watch out for open access operators being nationalised in the next decade, probably after a raft of new legislation directed at making it impossible for them to make a profit and reducing the value of their assets....

[@johnwood2448]

Who is the private sector investor that is investing £500 million in these new trains? They must be extremely confident on a return on their investment. Might not be a great deal of money from a politicians perspective but that's a lot for a private sector investor to put into something with no guarantee of a return (5 to 10%). Second question do we really believe that Virgin, First Group, Stagecoach Group and the rest will be as committed to open access as they are in managing fixed term contracts? Two pretty ambiguous questions but unless there are solid answers I'm guessing these new express trains will find their way into GBR use and eventual ownership. Lets hope the suspension, chairs and interior fixtures and fittings will be of a better quality than what we have at the moment.

[@garthcox4307]

The incompetence of rachel from accounts continues to be breathtaking.....

[@simonjenkins7679]

No juice at Rye!

[@maunsell24]

Ooops! Rookie mistake by Nigel. The Marshlink Line between Ore and Ashford has never been electrified. It uses Class 171 DMUs. The location of the crossing is on the west bank of the River Brede - maps.app.goo.gl/BcHidN9NxLndxQjE7

[@GreenSignals]

Indeed, nor it would appear, intelligence in some of the local residents.....

[@geoffcross6529]

Late comment i know Hard seats seem to be the 8 out of ten view to be conservative now thats breaking news, but as alas.

[@EdgyNumber1]

REGARDLESS of nationalised or open access, THE ORR MUST REMAIN INDEPENDENT.

[@GreenSignals]

When it comes to path regulation then yes, for freight, if nothing else.

[@BenRattigan]

Just don’t stay at the Norbreck Castle hotel.

[@GreenSignals]

Good heavens - is that still there!

[@macstar2010]

I hoping they are not looking at Lumo as being the 'ryanair' of the railways, meaning they can keep other services fares too high. Full nationalisation should include the end of open access to make it all fair. Its good news for the hitachi factory and the staff.. but its fair to say the class 800 product is substandard.. both ride quality and seating comfort. Theyve had plenty of time to get this right. The regulators need to pull their finger out.

[@Bugster42]

her mouth was open so she was lying

[@jjfarrell9349]

Sad news about Blackpool - fact, nothing to laugh at at all.

[@GreenSignals]

Agreed, it is sad though it looks like a U Turn has been performed in double quick time.

[@colinbrooks228]

that detail and labout dont do detail

[@mikewardUK]

Abstraction and poor performance have to be assessed in the round

[@GreenSignals]

in the round of what?

[@anthonypowell5665]

Nigels right here stop being so sensitive and be quite graphic when trying to educate people

[@GreenSignals]

I think you have just given Nigel a green signal!

[@anthonypowell5665]

@GreenSignals certainly i think sharp harsh truth is the only way to get through to people. I had someone yesterday justbwalk out Into the middle of the road to stop my bus to get on even said to me they didn't know they had to put their hand out at the bus stop to request the bus to stop. It is shocking you share people are not being taught the dangers by their parents

[@anthonypowell5665]

@GreenSignals certainly i think sharp harsh truth is the only way to get through to people. I had someone yesterday justbwalk out Into the middle of the road to stop my bus to get on even said to me they didn't know they had to put their hand out at the bus stop to request the bus to stop. It is shocking you share people are not being taught the dangers by their parents

[@allanmorton6022]

Good discussion on open access and you are right to focus on the strange mix of public and private. At least lumo offer off peak returns on the east coast. Be interesting if GBR changes responsibilities. Pity about Blackpool trams. Now that Euston screens don't show adverts does NR have to give money back to the advertising firms who helped fund the screens. Another interesting episode.

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Allan. I'm guessing there must have been a contract variation re the Euston screen. Right outcome, but there will have been consequences. Cheers. R

[@oninbridders]

49:03 the only thing this podcast lacks is silly noises. Someone should buy you a sounds board for Christmas. It would top off this well produced show.

[@GreenSignals]

Please, PLEASE, don't encourage Nigel or we will have silly noises galore!

[@pedromorgan99]

M250 is the fastest freight intermodal train on DC. and running for decade. London to Newcastle in 6 hrs, performing as a "passenger train" in speed. Their product line is ready.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYTan558hsmJgLM

[@GDGRailway47712]

The reason why there is so much disruption because of storms is because of human caused climate change. The railways have to adapt to become more resilient to the extreme and persistent weather we now have. That takes investment in water management around the railway. We also need to increase environmental projects to slow the progress of water from sky to sea. Really the cost of these should be taken by those most responsible for said climate change. Massive increase in taxes on private cars and air travel and a tax on red meat. Other things like forcing private landlords to update their housing to insulation and efficiency standards, investing in renewables (and rail infrastructure to use renewable power) and transfer of all land to state ownership so that it can be allocated efficiently according to utility.

[@andrewhotston983]

Why doesn't this allegedly human-caused climate change affect roads to anything like the same extent.

[@GDGRailway47712]

@andrewhotston983 there's no allegedly about it. All credible scientists agree. It does affect roads, a number of roads get closed due to flooding and it has clearly become more regular than it used to be. There are a number of YT channels documenting cars being killed going through flooding, they wouldn't exist if it hadn't become a regular occurrence. Roads do have a couple of advantages. 1. The water goes over them and when the water recedes the road is largely undamaged. Railway infrastructure tends not to be. 2. Rail lines, even reopened ones, have been there since Victorian times. Major trunk roads are newer and they often get upgraded.

[@Bungle-UK]

Weather has always changed. The earth has survived for billions of years and will outlive us all. Stop being alarmist.

[@andrewhotston983]

@@GDGRailway47712 If you knee anything about geology you'd know that the Earth's climate has fluctuated, sometimes wildly, for millions of years before mankind arrived on the scene. The alleged influence of man on the climate is far from certain. What IS certain is the fact that the funding for climate "science" is restricted to those individuals who subscribe to the same doomsday cult that you belong to. They daren't tell the truth - it would be blasphemy and they would lose their jobs.

[@grahamwebster9937]

Thanks

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Graham. That's very much appreciated.

[@petercurtis3984]

Thanks

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Peter. That's very much appreciated.

[@paulroberts9570]

Thanks

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Paul. That's very much appreciated.