58mm is a Mistake: Depth vs Diameter Examined

[@petegalvs]

I'm just waiting for this conversation to come full circle and for us to realize that pressurized baskets were the answer all along

[@homedepotindustrialfan936]

Coffee nerds don’t like pressurized baskets because it takes the fun out of dialing in a shot and does the work for them, making a really nice shot without their expertise. Can’t change my mind. Also feel this way about moka pots. Not necessary to pour hot water into the bottom chamber first (cough Hoffman cough). The moka pot has a perfect design already and is dead simple, not much experience needed.

[@niklas8523]

@@homedepotindustrialfan936 I agree with the pressurized baskets. They make good coffee. However, they are also boring and it's way more fun to have horrible shots sometimes and exceptional shots other times

[@homedepotindustrialfan936]

@@niklas8523 It is. I also prefer unpressurized. But I won’t lie and say it produces better coffee.

[@jamesramsey2400]

@@homedepotindustrialfan936lol have u guys ever tried to 1) do latte art with espresso pulled on pressurised porta filter and 2)make decent light roast coffee espresso

[@nollys8523]

And a double spout portafilter puts an end to the debate😀

[@purrito4424]

Is this what happens to audiophiles when they discover espresso?

[@admiral_v]

OMG ..... definitely !!!!!

[@novideohereatall]

I feel like they are the same people. Those who tend to get deep into hobbies like espresso or hifi will most likely get into the other as well. At this point it must be a personality trait "how deep into *insert run of the mill object" can I go?" Audiophiles are usually into coffee, and napolean pizza, and beer, and wine, and so on...

[@plantex625]

@@novideohereatall Mechanical watches, cameras, the list goes on

[@jpk.mp3]

yes

[@greysuit17]

Well if it throws a wrench into your hypothesis…I’m a coffee nerd about to get into hifi….so, no.

[@JMSargeant]

Lance, I love you. You have a hypothesis, and then you experiment and present data. Thank you for inquisitive nature and not trying to hype the latest thing.

[@sjc9832]

I don't know, there are dozens of cases of researchers presenting evidence that seems to support their long-held belief which turns out not to replicate when a neutral researcher repeats the experiment. Especially in an area with as many variables as espresso, we should be pretty careful of confirmation bias. Still, if the results are as obvious as shown here, they should be easy for others to replicate!

[@aosyborg]

I tried doing 20g in my 58mm portafilter instead of my usual 18g with the idea that I would have to go coarser to maintain the the same extraction time. Best cup I've made in a long time. Thank you for the thoughts and helping me better understand what's going on.

[@michaelcolley5776]

I really enjoy all these recent videos where you're questioning and testing all the various standard espresso practices.

[@greybeard27]

Except his test methods are so poor the results are largely meaningless.

[@thomascee]

This is why we love Lance. He asks the questions none of us even realize existed.

[@gravlygravy]

Just to make everyone jealous, I am on a 42.5mm basket - the Caravel. Thanks for helping cure my 58mm FOMO!

[@nisgt]

Haha me too!👍

[@ExtractionFaction]

Ditto!​@@nisgt

[@mikni4069]

Lol it’s not really about size of the basket but the potential in puck dept, the Caravel is just small in every regard. There small diameter basket out there that allows the high columns of coffee but it’s not true on all small diameter machines as some of them just make very small shots.

[@gravlygravy]

Yep it is small. The aspect ratio is definitely more analogue TV than widescreen but a deeper basket would be v.cool. I'm used to my 12.5gm in 31gm out. It means I get to drink more coffees per day.

[@francisvaughan7460]

Aspect ratio is almost certainly the wrong metric. Depth of puck is almost certainly the only thing that matters, and the aspect ratio is just a derived value that comes from nothing other than the dose. Working with a deep 58mm basket is still only going to be a matter of depth. I would feel 100% certain that if you pulled a shot in the 49mm and 58mm with the same depth, but ran the shots so that they had a volume of fluid proportional to the volume of coffee in the baskets, the shots would be near identical. There is something important here, and you have been iterating towards it for a while now. This is good stuff. I suspect that what is needed is a parametrisable model of extractives flow for a coffee particle, and basic 3D model of flow though the puck coupled to extractives flow. You have a range of polar and non-polar extractives. The rate of extraction of polar extractives will depend upon the concentration already in the water flowing past. Non polar extractives may extract differently with changes in pH and other interesting things. In principle it should be possible to predict the extraction profile if you have such a model. All the messing about with grind size, grind distribution, and pressure is just a very decoupled and inexact way of trying to optimise the the balance of extractives. But it is horridly unstable, and there is no sensible overarching model to guide us. These videos point the way in a useful manner.

[@LanceHedrick]

i'll definitely be looking more into all of this. appreciate the comment!

[@matthewmorgan1992]

++ having worked as a barista and serviced a variety of commercial machines, my experience is that the bed depth is what matters. This is likely also the reason that shots extracted using a "single" basket are never as good as with a "double" basket on the same machine with the same coffee, grind notwithstanding.

[@chen8857]

I‘m with you on this. So Coffee bed height and water flow per surface area has to be constant to achieve similar results. So in theory if you 2 shots on the decent with same flow / area ratio and puck height they should be quite similar…

[@eric.woolsey]

Yep I agree with you here 100%. Depth is the important metric being tested here, not aspect ratio. Should be easy to test as well with the same setup in this video. The dose ratio would be 58^2 / 49^2 = 1.401. That does mean you'd need some pretty beefy 58mm shots, 28g of coffee compared to 20!

[@LanceHedrick]

Yes I discuss in the video wanting to match relative depth

[@ffsolutions9442]

This reminds me of another ancient discussion about depth vs girth, but hey... on with the video. 😂

[@jontpt]

I think it was length versus girth, but I could be wrong 😂

[@SunriseLAW]

^^^ uses a DeLonghi Stilosa

[@paul_om4822]

​@@jontptdepends on who's talking.

[@briers9]

58mm is the chode of the coffee world.

[@bigsqueegie]

Coke can?

[@0whitestone]

Thank you for making this video. I have not purchased my espresso machine yet and this kind of content makes me feel better about buying a smaller portafilter machines. I've been mentally giving negative 'points' to any machine without a 58mm when trying to decide what to buy. I might still get a 58mm machine, but this kind of content helps me make a more informed decision when purchasing. And yes, please lets have the follow-up video!

[@starmartyr]

Same... me who has been looking to upgrade my 51mm machine for months: "WTF do I do now?!" 😅

[@NicolasStevens-c3r]

What a rabbit hole you have just opened for me 😅. I dialled in my Solis/Breville (54mm) as follows: 18gr in, 36gr out -> adjust grind size to taste/ pressure/ speed. I was only a click away from minimum on the grinder… Started thinking about better grinders, new machine,…. Now I just tried 24gr/ 52gr with a much coarser grind….. and it completely changed the espresso. What a difference ❤. Instead of buying new gear, I’m just going to use more beans from now on 😅 & much more experimenting the coming days 😊 Thanks for another great video. PS: If I were to consider a new machine, it would have to be one that is ready to use in a few minutes… so please keep the reviews of thermoblock machines coming ❤

[@TheShirudoKen]

Out of curiosity what basket size were you using for your 18g shot and did you have to use a larger basket for your 24g? Would love to give this a shot (no pun intended) on my lelit

[@JoelBecker]

This is amazing and fascinating information. Maybe I can stop having 58mm envy! My kit is all Breville (Barista Express for years, with the recent addition of a Bambino), and I generally really enjoy them. I've never worried much about the grinder on the Barista Express, because I've always known my technique is the limiting factor. I'm just not that much of an expert. But in the back of my mind, I've always had this nagging worry that the 54mm baskets were leaving something on the table. Not "professional" enough. Somehow the "lesser" option. I think I'm done with that. I will continue to rock my 54mm baskets without that inferiority complex. Thank you for all of your work, Lance. I've also switched to your "coarser grind, fuller basket" workflow, and it's significantly improved the consistency of the shots I pull with the Barista Express grinder. No joke, that video was like a $100 grinder upgrade for me.

[@MrRlaureano]

I too had puck envy using my 54mm Breville Barista Express portafilter thinking someday that I would upgrade to a a more "professional" 58mm portafilter espresso machine. This video finally answered my curiosity whether or not 58mm filters are indeed better. Looks like my Breville will be sticking around for a long time. BTW, I upgraded to an IMS Precision 18-22g filter basket a long time ago since I wanted a fuller espresso shot with 20g to 22g of coffee (vs only 18g with stock dual shot filter basket).

[@pphaneuf]

​@@MrRlaureanoMy main problem with my Bambino Plus is how difficult it is to buy precision baskets for them! I'm in the UK, and I think I got my IMS baskets from Canada?!? Couldn't find anywhere else that had 54mm and would ship them to me...

[@TheSwoon69]

Instructions unclear, bought everything down to 1mm

[@topvid08]

Laughed so hard at this

[@jameshaulenbeek5931]

Comes out at the proper drinking temperature. 😂

[@johnaardvark2476]

Ah yes, I remember the Mere Male columns in reader’s digest.

[@DiamondPl8ted]

Glad to hear this as I have a Flair Espresso, which has a narrow, deep, bed. To keep it brief, I've always liked the shots I've pulled with it but now I'm not going to feel the FOMO of the Flair 58. Thank you!

[@tysonfromm5397]

Love my flair 58. Can feel what changing the grind size/amount, pressure curve, and even water temp flows like through the puck.

[@jggimi]

39mm represent!

[@koejoe]

Flair signature classic is great because I’m sensitive to caffeine but love espresso ! Pro 2 next purchase to make two at a time :)

[@Kiaulen]

To toss my own anecdata into the ring: My 54mm barista express was much easier to dial in than my current 58mm MiiCoffee Apex.

[@meislit9217]

I always had a feeling breville may have known something making their entry stuff 54mm. Makes sense for a beginner machine to be easier to dial in and more forgiving on the grind with the cheap grinders of the all-in-one machines. Same with full automatics, they always use smaller pucks than 58mm, might have different reasons there with space and costs but still.

[@Ioipod]

This reminds me a lot of the discussions (pre pandemic) of the Flair Pro / Pro 2 vs the Robot basket. Somehow it was to be believed that Robot’s bigger basket yield a more professional shot than Flair’s 45.5 due to its size but it was never my experience 😅 I also preferred shots made by these antique Italian lever machines. Thing is, with the smaller Flair Pro size (which I still use, the first one with the new basket) it was really, really difficult to make a bad shot. It’s also very much true that you could grind quite a bit coarser than on the robot. The texture was always quite good, even with coarser grounds, and channeling still happened but 90% of the time it was due to weak tamping. Even Flair has moved to 58 now so don’t really know how reversible this trend is or if it’s worth it, but loved the video and what you brought to the table!

[@retsz1]

I have the step down and got the dosing funnel made for it. It makes the workflow better as you don’t have to clean the sides. I also got a bunch of puck screens to fill the head space. Overall I’m happy with the results.

[@LanceHedrick]

lol just remembered i have the funnel for it. completely forgot

[@damland1357]

I would say it is definitely because of 1. Coarser grind size leads to less channelling over time. The dense fine ground puck will certainly have many channels forming everywhere. 2. Larger depth in puck gives more time for the various higher and lower pressure zones coming from the group head to even out. 3. It probably also creates a lower disparity between the over extracted centre of the puck, and the under extracted edges. (as demonstrated in the experiments with the cooker cutter you previously mentioned). It would be interesting to repeat the cooker cutter experiment with various ratios and depths of puck.

[@aramse]

Selling all my 58mm machines and moving back to the Flair PRO 2. Lol. Great video, super interesting results! Did you by any chance compare with a declining pressure profile? We know that those shots tend to taste better so I'd be curious to know if the cups converge in terms of taste when you go a little easier on the shallower puck.

[@muji_not_tech]

Flair flex/classic/signature with a 39.5mm basket: 👀

[@gabrielblue]

I have a cheap 51mm Delonghi ECP3420 set up at my vacation pad with a Timemore hand grinder and a bottomless portafilter and I’ve noticed a richer mouthfeel and almost chocolate like consistency in the espresso I make on this set up. So… your experience here adds up to my experience! Thanks for all you do. You are really pushing the frontiers of espresso my man!

[@ratoftoska7497]

Have you had any issues with too much acidity on the ECP3420, even with dark roasted beans? I let the boiler heat up for a while before pulling a shot. I use an IMS 16-18g basket. I think that my puck prep is adequate as well, but I can't seem to figure out why I have this unpleasant, overwhelming acidity that starts appearing after a few sips, the kind that you can feel in the back of your throat. I can't figure out if I'm the issue or the machine is. I'm also curious, how many grams do you usually use for your shots? I tend to go for about 17-18g so that the basket doesn't have a huge gap between the puck and the shower screen.

[@hixomdido]

@@ratoftoska7497 what's your coffee output in grams? I had the same issue (same machine) when I was trying to do 1:2 ratios and had much better results with 1:3ish

[@Aina-t3u]

@@ratoftoska7497I’ve found you can’t let it heat up too much with darker roasts. I actually switch it off for dark roasts between shots. I have a hand grinder so I switch it back on when I start grinding. If it takes a while so it stands at brewing temperature for a while I purge it first. When you run only water through you’ll actually see a lot of steam coming out when it’s running too hot. You’ll want to run water out until the readiness light goes out so the temperature has cooled down, and pull your shot straight away when the light comes back on.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

I think the 58mm is also the most popular because you have the most available accessory options for it. Lots of baskets, tampers, funnels, so that makes it more convenient.

[@danielchin8073]

Lol, just made a similar comment before seeing yours. Seems there's a cycle going on. More accessories, parts and upgrades are available because it's so popular commercially and their availability makes the size more attractive which keeps it popular.

[@paulallen3511]

Which is basically saying, Its popular because its popular. But why did it get popular to start with?

[@BensCoffeeRants]

​@paulallen3511 probably just because e61 commercial machines happened to be 58mm. Im surprised if lance likes deeper baskets sure generally more shallow basket introduces more risk of channeling or just channeling affects things more dramatically but you tend to get more flavour clarity with a more shallow basket i believe. I havent extensively compared but i have the same weber basket in 16g size and 28g size which is just deeper and the 28g gave a more blended lower clarity higher body shot. I wish there were more basket options for my 51mm La pavoni machine though!

[@EVR1AL]

​​@@paulallen3511because Italian espresso machines with faema e61 group are a big commercial business and they want to stay in business

[@missinglink_eth]

Mad rush on 49mm baskets per Lance recommendations… throw out all 58mm 😂

[@gregkielec3741]

I started my espresso journey with a BBE about 8 years ago and always felt I got my best espresso shots with it despite slowly climbing my way to 58mm machines - more recently a GCP, then an ECM Classika. Then 2 months ago we snatched up a Bambino Plus for coffee during an extended stay at a distant friend’s. And wouldn’t you know it? I was pulling really tasty espresso again. I thought maybe I was romanticizing the quality of the BBE espresso but your video, Lance, shows that maybe my mind wasn’t playing tricks on me after all. Apparently aspect ratio matters! Thanks for the video!!

[@mattchang3266]

I’m using a 53mm La Spaziale, the puck integrity is better but can’t say it tastes any better than a 58mm. The quality of coffee is still the most important thing.

[@Mandragara]

I think you'd need to A:B them side by side to get it. Rather than relying on memory

[@dmitryb394]

Thanks!

[@LanceHedrick]

thank you!!!

[@celticdr]

It's an interesting proposition basket depth vs width. I don't imagine there was much science involved in the selection of the basket diameter going back to the early days of espresso, it would have been a process of trial and error and settling on 58mm because it just worked. Keep digging Lance, there's some very intriguing results in these experimental espresso videos and we're all here of the ride 😎

[@ronnyskaar3737]

I have a delonghi dedica and use 51 mm. Very happy with the pucks and the extraction.

[@gregorcutt9078]

Always information overload with a nonstop, free flow of ideas, nonstop entertainment. I’ve always felt that a deeper puck was implied to give a better experience. I very much appreciate the ideas that you put forth and the lengths you go to, to present them.

[@Good.News777]

Finally the biggest contemporary debate! Although you mentioned the comparison in some of your previous reviews, BuT this video def needed. Thank you Lance for bringing up the topic!

[@Danielsworlds]

This is actually very similar to a philosophy that you use in Brewing of high-end tea. Use more leaf less water and a short contact time. Have whole Leaf not ground or broken leaves. And a lot of them use a smaller amount of water and have a contact time of less than 30 seconds. This will give you a rich and vibrant Brew extracting the delicious parts of the leaf without digging too far into the bitter and tannic unpleasant flavors that live at the end of Brewing when seeking every ounce of extraction. Now this is easy to say for tea because Tea Leaves Can much more easily be rebrewed to make up for the Lost cost that using so much product creates. And for most people the cost of that extra gram or two of coffee can be tough to stomach.

[@latemousecoffeeco]

Your commitment to consistency and excellence is second to none. Thank you for the insight

[@robobik]

Ah, the good old crop vs full-frame.

[@TsvetanVR]

Indeed. 😁

[@Ramu-10]

Crop sensors need more love it seems

[@lib747]

Are we talking about full frame with an APS-C lens?

[@cmck1777]

Fuji are growing faster than anyone right now and Sony’s ZV line and Canon’s crop stuff helps their sales. It’s really only numbskulls (like me!) and pros that understand why a larger sensor might be better for their work that use them.

[@MaakBow]

Na...crop vs full frame def gets a lot more name calling.

[@DaniilOskolkov]

That's the discussion that we needed to bring up for a long time. As always, thank you!🙏🏻

[@audriusa7005]

Very interesting, thank you for constantly searching, trying and brainstorming ideas, challenging curent standarts and putting them to the test. One fella mentioned that flair pro 2 has tottally different taste from flair 58 because of the filter size, and your video ties it up nicely.

[@banboosy]

Man… you’re really pushing the game forward. You’re out here every video doing crazy stuff. Love that.

[@qwmjml]

Banger after banger. Coincidentally, I'm currently using a 51mm machine, but I also own a 58mm machine, both at different locations and paired with a different grinder. I always found the shots from the 51mm machine to be more pleasant, with less astringency. I would've bet it was because of the different grinder, but now I am unsure. I plan to make a fair (enough) comparison one day to find out for myself.

[@jjunek]

Cant honestly believe how great of a content you are creating right here. Thank you very much and keep up the good work. I do not tend to fomo after a new machine, but it is so interesting to dig deeper into the world of espresso making through the lens of an coffee expert like yourself. Hope im nit being too needy/positive or something, but i wanted to give you a positive feedback for a long time.

[@AdamHill42]

Tons of Flair Pro/Classic (46mm) users upgrading to 58 shared this experience - much harder to dial in

[@LanceHedrick]

Meant to mention puck prep is a LOT more important with 58 than smaller diameters.

[@mattscarf]

@@LanceHedrickExactly, I only started WDT after switching from the Pro2 to the 58

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Im a home roaster and let me tell you... temperature greatly affects the way my roasts come out. Winter sucks for roasting and hot summer nights is almost as wild. I too try to roast when i have a consistent temp. 20c to 25c has served me well but sometimes that may be very early in the morning.

[@mathieulemay4788]

Darcy’s law applied to espresso: total shot mass = some constants*5% smaller particles size^2*basket diameter^2*pump pressure/coffee depth*shot time. Can’t wait to see the next experiment!

[@jojacobs4355]

Thank you Lance for calling out, questioning and investigating things we take for granted. I’m a beginner looking into an espresso machine and I was wondering about this as well when I was looking into portafilter size. I thought this it would be better if the water whatever route it chooses had more coffee grounds to travel than a broader area with less travel.

[@Davido2369]

dude im loving your experimentation courage and publishing the results

[@ondrejmitas3325]

I have been hoping for someone to properly research aspect ratio for years. This is a gift!!!

[@bodyboardingbum]

Great video. As someone who’s recently swapped from a lifetime of 58mm machines to a La San Marco group lever - I’m totally with you. Would love to see more lever content from you too, as a side point.

[@Natalia-f6j]

Hi! Is it possible to use accessories for Breville 54mm on the La San Marco group? I can't tell whether portafilters are the same or different.

[@bodyboardingbum]

@@Natalia-f6j I don’t have any 54mm breville accessories to test sorry, but if the handle lugs are in the same location it might work?

[@alexinman3468]

It was quite interesting listening to your analysis of this phenomena. As a brewer of beer we have a similar tendency to opt for tall skinny mash tuns to create a column of grain, often adding rice hulls to create a "coarser" mash to prevent channeling and, in essence, better extraction. I'd love to bring pressure into our world, as everything is done via gravity, it could be really interesting!

[@jettary]

Great thanks to your videos! With slow feeding, smaller baskets, 9v6 bars - you helped me significantly increase quality for my espresso shots!

[@liiich6175]

Ive always felt my Flair with a 39mm basket always made nicer coffee for me. Wasn't sure if cooler water or manual pressure was also the reason.

[@page66]

Same. And i heat the chamber to the extremes (barely can tuch through the silicone sleeve) So it is not temperature)

[@lorincapson7720]

mind blown.. Been chasing consistency by throwing $$$ at Espresso gear. Have the SW basket, paper and screen filters. Grinder upgrades, always 18 in, 36 out. Wildly different taste and texture. I've given up on Espresso. But now.. Deeper Puck and Coarser Grind? Thanks Lance, excited to try this out.

[@Paradox-coffee]

I have literally always wondered about this. But like Lance said at the start. Unless it is on the same machine. There was always waaaay to much variables. I do a standard of 18g per puck.

[@xander1052]

So what I'm hearing is we need giant deep baskets for triple 58mm espressos

[@rbass225]

Really enjoyed this, great investigation! I think there are 2 parts to it, which you mention but smushed together a bit: 1) It appears that puck depth is key to being able to grind coarser; 2) With a deep puck, it is more economical to have a narrow basket so you don't have to use a lot of coffee to get the effect. If this is right, then you should get similar results with the same puck depth, regardless of basket diameter or aspect ratio. Looking forward to tests of this! The 58mm EPNW triple basket (and similar baskets) were favorites of mine for many years. I'm currently using IMS 29mm deep basket on my Cremina for same reasons.

[@youremostwelcome]

I’ve still got my old La Pavoni Pro, despite upgrading (through various steps) to a LM Leva X, and I’ve often wondered about this. So much more surface area for channeling to occur in the 58mm!

[@ritterkeks]

Its true that with more width, there is more surface area, but the puck is therefore also thinner with same amount of coffee - to me it seems then less likely that a channel might appear, compared to a much deeper puck where differences in the puck prep quickly add up to more easily allow high/low pressure zones. Shallow puck means less variance across the surface imo... so a bit less finicky, less prone to prepping errors in my experience

[@thebitterfig9903]

As a photographer, I care deeply about Aspect Ratio. Give is 65:24 in-camera for more camera bodies, folks! Fuji *manufactured* the XPan/TX1, the legacy is there, they should put it in their X-Mount bodies. I also vibe hard with manufacturers having a hard time selling narrower baskets because there's some market perception that 58mm is the best. Folks just figure the bigger number is better, but there are also often a lot of ways where it's not relevant.

[@Spoobie123]

Me over here with my Gfx 😉. Personally the 55mm is better than the 58mm

[@thebitterfig9903]

@@Spoobie123 That 55 seems like a sweet lens. Part of what seems really sweet about the GFX line is that even if you crop to FF area, you still have around 60mp or more. With the 55 you get a wide normal to a tight normal with no loss of resolution compared to something like a Canon R5. Plus, native 65:24. :)

[@Spoobie123]

@@thebitterfig9903 I love the 55 on the Gfx not too wide not too close. I also love framing with 65:24 in camera too. Fantastic

[@diganta2329]

Amazing research! When I heard „no need to go out and by new equipment“ I knew that something big was coming 😅

[@LanceHedrick]

Hahahaha figured an early disclaimer was a worthy addition

[@jfb112697]

as a flair signature owner i am very excited for this. experimenting with dosing on that portafilter can be weird, i usually stay in the 15.75-16.5g range though but i've been having a sneaking suspicion I could be going higher. excited to see your findings!

[@muji_not_tech]

I can go up to 18g with medium roast so with lighter roast you can push even higher 😂

[@jfb112697]

@@muji_not_tech lol I have some medium I’m extracting at 17.25 and it’s working great I’ll try out 18 and coarser

[@atavax311]

I'm disappointed you didn't sing "I like thick pucks, I cannot lie"

[@tonynguyen282]

So funny that I had this thought recently. As I used a Breville 870XL for years, and upgraded to a Lelit Bianca. And noticed the difference in how much more punishing it was on the 58mm and how much more fine I had to grind. About 4-5 steps on my Kopi Concept grinder for the exact beans for years.

[@SBTones]

Thank you so much for this! I have a really cheap 51mm 28g portafilter because I like big espressos, and I was grinding super coarse to keep extraction at 30s and the shots every time would taste delicious and I wouldnt understand why, because of my cheap weird portafilter was against anything else I have seen people recommend on their recipies. I always thought that 58mm was the standard for a reason, so I was aiming to upgrade one day. I have the cheapest possible equipment Dedica with Fellow Opus and 1 euro portafilter from aliexpress and my shots taste better vs any coffee shop I have every tasted in my country. And I have tasted every coffee shop I could find.

[@mauort6870]

what country?

[@SBTones]

@@mauort6870 Greece

[@milunbosiljcic]

Thank you Lance. Very good. If you read the history of the standard distance between modern day train rail tracks (which is an odd one, 4 feet and 8.5 inches!?) you will see that it dates back to the distance between the wheels of Roman Chariots made to fit two horse arses! No joke! Later on horse wagons used the same measurements so wheels can fit groves on the first roads dug by wheels of Roman Chariots! People who built those horse wagons used the same jigs and tools to build mining wagons, then first road tramways and subsequently trains! It organically became a norm even though it doesn't have any practical application for the modern day equipment! So thank you Lance for debunking and challenging the norm! That's brave 🥰

[@devotedpickleball]

I have a 51mm Pf on my Delonghi EC155 with a few mods (steam wand and depressurized bottomless pf), and I know lots of people who love the Lucca, which has a 53mm pf. I can totally agree with the findings in this video. I always felt like I had more body and better extraction overall. It also helps the pucks come out cleaner, which is a great bonus.

[@istvanzoltankiss]

That's why I'm not upgrading my Sage B.E. All it needs is a few accesorries, to help the dial in process, and it's a great machine for home baristas. Proper settings to the grinder and a single dose hopper also helps a lot. And freshly roasted, good quality coffee of course. At the end of the day if you like what you taste, you reached your goal. It's always, however, good to follow your videos Lance. Lot's of things to learn. Thank you for your dedication and experimenting.

[@holladay67]

“Don’t just go out looking for a step down basket for you 58mm…” Me- proceeds to immediately start looking for step down baskets haha😂

[@Psychoh90]

I was waiting for YOU to cover this topic since a long time. Niiiice! Liked the video and then I’ll watch it 😃

[@TsvetanVR]

You have just confirmed in a quite a bit more scientific way, my observations going from 51mm to 58mm. Even though I went from a pretty shitty machine like the Dedica to the Bianca, as long as I stick with medium dark roasted coffees (I imagine mostly because the lack of temperature control or any stability to speak of on the Dedica really affect lighter roasted coffee), I'm able to consistently pull good shots and the Sage Smart Grinder Pro is able to do a very decent job at grinding the beans for the required outcome. Slight variations in my workflow barely affect the end result. Several days into owning the Bianca with the 58mm portafilter, I discovered that the Sage was really running out of steam when trying to grind lighter roasts to the much finer level required for the shallower 58mm puck to deliver the necessary resistance. I went and bought a DF64V that's doing an awesome job but I've discovered that every little difference in the way I'm prepping the puck or pulling the shot can make or break the end result. P.S. I do not yet have puck screens for the 58mm portafilter and I was using a relatively thick mesh one with the Dedica.

[@dvs3308]

I have a beautiful LaPavoni with 51mm baskets and I love it 🙂

[@gwocks57]

Thanks for opening my eyes for dosing up. Still using my non-high-flow 58mm basket, but simply using ~19g instead of 17,5g and getting 1:2 shots as a result. Made my espresso so much better 👌🏻

[@TheLever]

If you want to test the effects that different puck thicknesses have on how shots taste you could also consider using a Cafelat Robot where the basket can basically hold as much coffee as you might want and you don't have problems with headspace since you pour water directly on top of the coffee. Then you can play around with smaller doses with finely ground coffee (thin puck) and bigger doses with coarser grounds (thick puck), trying to find different doses and grind size combinations that give you similar flow rate and shot times for the same shot ratios. Obviously with a manual machine like the Robot the biggest challenge will be to keep the pressure profile and the other variables as consistent as possible from shot to shot.

[@LanceHedrick]

Of course. Issue is there is no real way to do a quantitative comparison meaningfully.

[@wretchedpkmn]

Love my 51mm machine and use the 18g basket. It'd honestly be the last thing I'd replace and now I have even more reason to keep rocking it. I feel like I've gotten really good results for a $200 machine and that's probably a factor.

[@markhicks5569]

Great video. Another reason to go with the Strietman. 49 mm basket to boot. As a relative newbie it allowed me to experiment and make great espresso . I learn each time I use it.

[@danielchin8073]

My reason for choosing 58mm was that at the time, it had the most options for upgrades and accessories from baskets to puck screens and paper filters and tampers, portafilters, funnels, etc. And the used market made entry cheap. Seems that the scene is expanding though, which is good. Have to consider options in the future if/when the time comes.

[@seige4043]

Thanks for the video! Some pointers/thoughts: - I think John from Decent says larger headspace leads to more body/texture, which also aligns with my experience so far. - A thicker puck should be much more forgiving regarding inconsitencies (grinder, puck prec, pump, shower head) - 58 mm pucks are much more prone to mistakes in prepariation and espresso extraction is pure chaos - A thicker puck should lead to an increased extraction gradient from top to bottom, as water accumulates solubles throughout its flow through the puck. I would imagine in extreme cases you promote overextraction of the top and underextraction of the bottom (obviously, this is always the case during espresso extraction to some extent) - I still think extraction yield is merely a macroscopic quantity, that does not provide information on what is actually happening inside the puck. It mainly provides a measure of consistency. - For me 58mm is mainly interesting as an ecosystem (baskets, portafilters etc) - How about a basket that resticts flow, while maintaining even extraction (anti high flow basket)? This would allow for a coarser grind and maybe lead to the same results? Keep up the good work!

[@LanceHedrick]

if John says that, I heartily disagree. I believe i've discussed the science of it in a video, but it is pretty well known, hence the spacer kit Sworks sells and the lessening of the headspace John has been doing on the decent. i'd be curious to see where he said that. I have not heard this from him

[@seige4043]

@@LanceHedrick I will double ckeck then, maybe I have mixed it up. :)

[@ignasimendez]

John says that LESS headspace produces more body.

[@celstark]

“A basket that restricts flow … allow for a coarser grind”. Like a pressurized basket…

[@seige4043]

@@celstark yes, but those are quite severe and have other issuesl. I was thinking more of a multi hole design which regulates flow across the puck.

[@worawatli8952]

I still use my stock Breville baskets, they gave me single shot and double shot, the single shot is that shallow conical shaped one, and double is deeper straight edge one. I now know why they made it conical with less hole, it is to make setting up single shot easier with same grind setting as the double shot basket. I noticed that when I make the same recipes, same dose size, same grind size, pulling 2 single shots for each cup always tastes different than pulling 1 double shot into 2 cups. I came to conclusion that deeper basket is my favorite, it always give better extraction and more margin somehow, but I didn't think much about it of how and why that is the case. lol Your video is very useful getting in depth with depth of basket of how and why it affected extraction. Thank you.

[@BBB_025]

Love the video and I love that you are pushing to re-examine "best practices" that may just turn out to be Dogma. I suspect you will be better served in your goals of inviting other people to try this experiment, making a scientific approach to coffee more common, and to not cause FOMO/upgrade-itis by minimizing the comments about which trial tasted "better" and focusing on highlighting which trial had more/less floral, sweetness, acidity, astringency, bitterness, viscosity, evenness/efficiency of extraction, etc. (sorry for the run-on sentence 😃) I think when you invoke the word "better" you instantly spark the thought chain of, "well if that makes better coffee then I want to buy that!" You also run the risk of alienating people by challenging their idea of what "better" coffee is or sounding condescending, which I know is something you are specifically working on in your presentation style. For what it's worth, I rarely if ever thought you sounded condescending and this video will certainly be in the back of my mind if I ever buy an espresso machine. Cheers❤

[@BBB_025]

I am looking forward to the follow up video! I hope Samo, Chris H, and Jonathan G are able and willing to run some of these experiments!

[@giuliofabbri8620]

THANK YOU. I've been wondering about puck geometry for ages! You're doing a banging job, Lance. Keep it up!

[@StefanoPrezioso]

I'm still pretty new to espresso and very much learning. We have a Breville Oracle which has a 58mm basket, and for a while that was my only data point. I've had good and bad shots with it, as any newbie would. More recently, we picked up a Flair Pro 2 for when we're out camping, which has a 46mm basket and even with a 16 gram dose which is on the low end for the Flair Pro 2, the puck is notably deeper than the pucks of the 58mm Oracle. While there are a load of variables at play here, I have noticed that once I got the hang of the Flair Pro 2, I can seemingly get better shots far more consistently, even with the inherent variability of a manual lever machine, and needing to preheat the brew chamber manually. I might even go as far to say that I can get better shots from the Flair Pro 2 than I can get from the Oracle at all, but that might just be that the window to hit a good shot is smaller with the Oracle, perhaps due to the pressure profile and thinner puck depth. Not really concrete evidence of anything, but anecdotally, I do think there may be some real truth here, and I will definitely start playing around with deeper puck beds on my Oracle.

[@The_Coffee_Rabbit_Hole]

I own you some excuses Lance , you were rigth , smaller diameter = better shot ... since im back on my cremina , shot are stellar ! ❤👍

[@jontpt]

It's much easier to remove a used puck from a 58mm portafilter than from smaller ones, which could explain why commercial establishments and machines opt for this size. Also, the tamp is more consistent with a shallower portafilter - you might have to go double with a deeper one.

[@bacca71]

You may be onto something. Speed of puck removal and having a clean basket ready for a reload is an important consideration in a commercial establishment -- as well as speed of preparation in many home use applications. The unaddressed factor: #Drinks/hour.

[@LanceHedrick]

This isn't true, really. Actually not at all in my experience. And I pull a lot of non 58 shots.

[@jontpt]

@@bacca71 I think that's probably the answer. Speedy workflow is everything in a commercial environment.

[@jontpt]

@@LanceHedrick Well, it's certainly true in my experience. A thin puck is always easier to dispose of than a thick one. Less tension holding it in the basket.

[@LanceHedrick]

@@jontpt perhaps it's your baskets. Mine just fall out without much effort in my small baskets.

[@brianco12]

Something I personally just realized by watching a this video. I have the Timemore Sculptor 078s grinder, and even with low roast coffees I have never had to dial below the number 1 on my espresso machine. So I have never had to take it apart and recalibrate it either. The reason for this is is likely that my machine is a La Spazialle Mini Vivaldi II, which actually has a deeper but smaller diameter portafilter basket at 53 mm. This enables me to grind my coffee just a tad courser than the standard shallow 58 mm basket to get the proper shot. So far it has been a perfect match and I am getting much better tasting coffee than I did out of my $900 Eureka Atom grinder.

[@fadyna3]

You are doing amazing work, thank you! This video helped me improve my daily espresso.. Seems like every other video you release is mind blowing!! Super impressive

[@paul_om4822]

The engineer in me loves what your doing Lance, another few of these vids are you'll be talkin' at full on Irish speeds . Crackin' stuff Daddy Hoff must be proud.

[@wakeawaken430]

I am really looking forward for your pavoni review and i am hoping for temperature study ♥️♥️♥️

[@DileepaRanawake]

Absolutely love the detail of your videos Lance. It’s great you are finding ways to increase consistency of shots.

[@vncdvncd8331]

Wow, Lance deserves something big in espresso to be named after him for centuries to come! Also I want 49mm dual boiler now, even though I know I should not buy anything new as you stated...

[@timgerber5563]

Definitely gonna try this out! Maybe I‘ll switch back to pulling big doubles (60g out) and splitting them instead of pulling small doubles (40g out) and using the entire double myself. Only problem is the limited headspace of the micra I have.

[@unknownentity222]

Next Video from Lance will be ideal particle size based on bed diameter. I hope anyways. I seriously enjoy these videos, Lance. While some will say it's unnecessary, by deepening our understanding in espresso, we come closer to good coffee

[@Leeroi132]

A few months ago i stopped using an ims high flow in favor of a traditional tapered basket for added puck depth/less headspace. Easier to dial, easier to knock out, less coffee used, and better body, which is what I was looking for. I tend to prefer medium/dark w robusta so my point could be moot in these modern times but definitely interesting to see a bit of the traditional style bleed into the modern one. Thanks for the video!

[@kylelockhart7066]

If you can make espresso with courser coffee, you could possibly make espresso more accessible to more people with less expensive grinders. Im super into learning more about this, thanks for geeking out with this video!

[@ronnyskaar3737]

I have a delonghi dedica and use 51 mm. Very happy with the pucks.

[@barjee]

This couldnt have come at a better time! Just today i was pulling shots of a light roast with a 17g 58mm and decided to switch to my 24g basket which is considerably deeper, i only did it because i wanted a slightly higher volume of espresso using the same ratio and was suprised that the shots were tasting better every time, much sweeter and more velvety :)

[@gertbehrmann4877]

Thanks a bunch, Lance, one of your best videos ever. A lot of experimentations awaits with aspect ratio as a variable. I understand that I don’t have to, but I’m very tempted to get this stepped basket.

[@constantinedinocopses6806]

Fascinating. Good work. I have always been intrigued by the difference in shots in my home between my 49mm La pavoni and my 58mm GS3 MP. Both pull great shots but noticeable differences. Thanks for all your insights.

[@matthiasannaberger2469]

I made such good choices with starting with coffee, because the more i watch stuff, the bigger fan i am of my choice of the aeropress (and aeropress go) and my recent purchase, the flair classic. Just tried went up from 15 to 17grams , a bit coarser then i thought i had to and pulled the loveliest shot i have ever done on it, even with cheap, darkroasted espresso beans (to experiment with)

[@chrismettler136]

Very well designed experiment. I like it. Regarding single shots, I actually enjoy them with the deeper single Dalla Corte/IMS 54mm baskets.

[@TheMartinChnnl]

By the way Lance, at the current state of things, you are making so much progress in the world of espresso, that you should probably partner with La Marzocco and build your own custom-made home espresso machine with rotary pump but ultra-small and with a very small-in-diameter portafilter. You know how to think out-of-the-box and question things that almost no one seems to be questioning!!

[@TheMartinChnnl]

Or maybe if La Marzocco doesn't want to partner with you, maybe you could partner with Decent. All they need is to replace the vibratory pump with a rotary pump and control flow with the speed of the motor of the pump. And shrink a lot the portafilter size.

[@alexanderlai9160]

Great video! I guess I'm doing pretty well with my Flair Classic with a 41mm basket (32mm depth), 16.5g in (that's the most you can put in without tamping twice), 30g out... grinding with a $20 Amazon BLADE grinder (shaking the grinder while grinding 4x 2second pulses). I think channeling has a lot to do with it, with less channeling in deeper pucks. I also think the manual lever allows you to fine tune the espresso where if I grind too course, I can pull the shot at 4-6 bar without channeling and if I grind too fine, I can pull the shot at 12 bar (at least according to the pressure gauge). Also, I've been targeting a longer pull at 50-60 seconds, I think it makes a stronger latte, with whole milk of course.

[@Sebastian-bp8hu]

Got my first coffeephile equipment back in 2013 and the first 3 things i learned is get single origin fresh roasted coffee, first drop @ 6-7 sec, last drop @ 25-30 and the biggest basket i can find, so got 24gr. Using a 7gr or 12 gr leaves no room for error and is less coffee, I ended up throwing them all in the sink. Some guy came up with this 58mm thing and everyone was like ... ok.

[@robertandil5950]

same thing I noticed recently, same grinder but in 54mm basket, the espresso was very bright and not much bitterness/harshness and was very hard to pull bad shot vs my 58mm at home where I usually have to precisely dial in to have the ideal tasting espresso

[@davidlundholm]

As always great video! I reached for the same step down basket because my SSP cast v3 would not go fine enough for a 58mm(Unifilter) unless heavily overdosed, but with the 49mm I am back in the zone with normal dose and grind size. I also prefer the taste from the 49mm but mostly it gives me more possibilities.

[@peterkho6008]

If the ability to grind coarser is one of the main driving force of this experiment, I wonder using the pressurized basket that is often included in entry level espresso machine can give (approximately) similar result. 🤔

[@htklun]

The one thing a deeper puck gives you that a pressurized basket won’t is the puck’s self-filtering ability. I like Lance’s conjecture that the puck itself is pulling some of the bitterness and astringency out of the shot. Look forward to some gas chromatography data on this!

[@christopherguy1217]

I got a 26 g VST basket to add depth and reduce output ratio to 1.5, yes more coffee but better taste. I use dark roasts so I can only fit 23 g in the basket. Interesting hypothesis, would be nice to get more data.