5th Precept - Don't Get High

[@zacharythax]

The reason one gets high is to change the way you feel, and the more you do zazen the desire to change the way one feels slips away.

[@HardcoreZen]

True that!

[@doriworldafterdark]

whoops *pretending I didn't see this video* moving right along to the next precept. (coughs nervously) ;) xoxo

[@dallasdandigitalproduction393]

Lol

[@croftperkins]

It's the only thing keeping me off 7 different pills. The VA is a tool to Big Pharmaceutical.

[@akactors]

Spoken like a true OMalley. I understand, said Mahoney.

[@JT-Money-]

Dmt and lsd showed me a glimpse of enlightenment, which drew me to buddhism

[@puravidasoundwaves]

In my experience marijuana lead me to my dark night of the soul which was absolutely the darkest 8 months of my life. It actually scared me away from drugs and alcohol for a long time. Now I am very grateful for that experience because it lead me to this path of yoga, Buddhism and Hinduism. I am sure that I would’ve got here eventually without marijuana but I guess my being wanted to go through a hellish shortcut. Since then I have tried marijuana and alcohol and I honestly don’t have any reason to continue doing either because my other practices have made me realize I no longer want to feel any different then I do right now and there is no where to be but here now. I don’t need to go on a trip. It doesn’t even sound appealing anymore.

[@thatdude_93]

I agree with muho on this one. Drug experiences might get you from picture 1 to picture 3 in the ox-herding-pictures, from ignorance and confusion to 'seeing the ox', but there are still 7 more pictures after that and drugs won't help you there. Only practice. This also has been my experience. That being said, there are many people who have been woken up by drugs and had their lives transformed. I think the main issue is, that also many get hung up on their experiences and don't cultivate their insights, hence wanting to take the drug over and over again. As Alan Watts said: "If you get the message, hang up the phone".

[@Tsotha]

that is an interesting way of putting the same point that Jodorowsky made, which I mentioned elsewhere

[@markfuller]

I like your position. I agree 100%. I think it's a matter of balance. There are actually people (in the realm of physics and studying consciousness) who believe mindfulness and zen are not always positive. They describe it leads to "living in the current moment" (at the expense of planning for the future, learning from the past), "and when the current moment goes bad, these people aren't prepared for that. It can be an existential crisis to them. Their way of existing was just fake. Not realistic balance of past/present/future." I think what they are confusing is that many people are driven to mindfulness and zen'ish delineation between thoughts and authentically experiencing the current moment (vs narrating it) because they suffer from mental illness. Benjamin Lebet discovered that our minds make choices/decisions 2/10ths of a second before our conscious mind believes it made the choice. So, basically our concious existence emerges from the subconscious, and rationalizes being in control of that. Mindfulness puts a person as close to that emergence as possible. If someone suffers from mental illness, that's typically due to past trauma which has been dis-integrated into the subconcious where it then affects choices/decisions that are made there. The inexplicable "making the same choice over and over again, hoping for a different result. The definition of insanity." If insanity is that kind of "dark passenger" (as Dexter called it), then people who sense that there is this compulsion to self-destructive behavior would eventually find mindfulness and zen-like principles as a way to be at that source of compulsion, and recognize it as it happens (instead of just following the rationalizing inner-narrative, and expecting things to "be different this time."). My point is that the not-so-positive side that those experts note could be part of a larger "not so positive side" which the person would suffer from if they shunned living in the moment, and followed their unconcious mind as it repeats the same patterns of behaviors. What they suffer in the present moment (due to lack of preparation for harsh present moments) could be less than what they'd suffer if they went globly through life believing "this time will be different," never watching the thinker, and never vetoing their thoughts. I.e., their choices may not be very good to begin with. They may be at risk of following the dark passenger too much, rather than avoiding the dark passneger too much. I think the topic of cannabis is like that. Sure, we've all seen people who didn't find balance with it. Too much of a stoner instead of getting out and engaging life with who they know they are. But, their use of canabis could put them in a better place than they would be without it. I.e., the problem isn't canabis, it's the person. Cannabis is just a sign of a symptom being treated. Like insulin is a sign of diabetes being treated. It's just part of a disability. A part that can help or hurt. If it hurts, you don't get rid of the insulin. You just dial in the dosage. (FWIW: I don't think alcohol is anywhere near fitting into this discussion. I think it's literally poison, whose only medicinal purpose is to sterilize wounds. The root of "inTOXICated" is significant, for a reason. Our bodies didn't evolve with an endocanabanioid system to process "poison." We didn't evolve with a system to process special compounds of alcohol. There are none. It's just poison which makes a person believe their false self, rather than expose them to their confabulated self the way cannabis does. I think it's entirely different. But, as you note: it can be hard to find a balance. I would just say that that difficulty may not be due to cannabis but the underlying problems the person has, and what led them to cannabis as a treatment or form of honesty with themselves. Just like mindfulness/zen is a form of existing more honestly in the moment, but can be unbalanced too. Typically for the same reason as cannabis: the person already has a challenge which causes imbalance. The question is whther they're better off being imbalanced with presence or not. Cannabis is just another form of presence, IMO. The opposite presence as alcohol. ).

[@jeanpaulmacabre]

I messed up and read the comments.

[@dallasdandigitalproduction393]

Lol

[@chrisplaysdrums09]

I’ve watched a lot of your videos- this is one of your best. 🙏

[@EvanBerry.]

Hi, Brad -- While watching this video, I was thinking about the "backlash" of sorts that you faced for sharing your opinion (not reviewing) Stephen Batchelor's book, The Art of Solitude. I just wanted to tell you that, having read most of his other books, I decided to read that one, as well, and I feel you were absolutely right in what you said. I think he is a very gifted writer, and while I give him credit for describing his experience with drugs in honest details (which constituted a larger proportion of the book than I expected), I was struck by what I perceived as his tendency of viewing those with aversion to drug experimentation as narrow-minded or fearful, in that they are unwilling to recognize drug use as a valid way to examine one's existential and experiential solitude. This is even suggested to be hypocrisy, since there are so many other legalized drugs (caffeine, for example), some of which he says have more harmful effects than illicit drugs. I noticed that he refers to some illicit drugs with their genus and species name, as if to emphasize their organic nature, and he refers to these as "medicines." He argues that there is a certain level of training involved in preparing oneself to handle the effects of drug use, and it's because most people lack the training or discipline, the effects of drugs cannot be appreciated for the insights they afford. I believe that he would agree with you that being clear-minded is what's important, but I think he'd say that drugs actually would clear the mind, because they remove filters, self-preoccupation, lift the veil, etc. I wanted to believe his descriptions were balanced, until I read, in a description of his use of ayahuasca, "This is enlightenment." The writing was beautiful, but I felt disappointed, because I felt like I was being called provincial or undisciplined because I have never done any drugs before, nor do I want to. I just wanted to tell you I felt you were right. And I read the entire book.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

May I put in: The scholar-physician Paracelsus (1493-1541) said: "Wrong quantity (or use) makes the poison!" This, i.m.o., quite neatly sums up the problematics. And regarding history: The use of (herbal) drugs is part of human history, and especially the history of philosophico-religious cults, at least since the stone-age. Buddhism, in general, is no exception, for clergy and laity always tend(ed) to use stronger/weaker "medicines" of all kinds to get along in life---that it would not always work as intended (guided by manifold sorts of holy and not so holy intentions) or salutary (in the sense of healing this or that organism), is another question.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank you, Evan! I just cannot understand his attitude. I have actually tried to get my head around why someone would believe that a drug can cause enlightenment. Especially someone with such a strong background of meditation as Stephen Batchelor. He must be defining "enlightenment" in a fundamentally different way. My feeling about drugs is that it's like being shot out of a cannon. If the cannon is aimed properly, you'll get a huge thrill and end up in a big pile of blankets (or whatever). But far too many things can go wrong and the consequences are too great. Just the idea of putting any sort of psychedelic into my body feels too much like Russian roulette. I wouldn't go near them.

[@ergotoxicosis]

@@HardcoreZen this whole conversation fascinates me. Classical psychedelics are fundamentally misunderstood, and the fact is that they don't make you a better person, they don't enlighten you, they don't do anything other than AMPLIFY and ACCELERATE whatever processes are already happening within a person. Having lasting breakthroughs on something like LSD, for example, depends on the ability of the person to "therapize" themselves or having a therapist with them. And even then, it still depends on so many factors whether or not an insight will stick. This is called integration, and not enough people who trip really do this. I am also guilty of slacking on this. But the really fascinating part for me is the biological perspective. The reason these substances have any effect at all is because of the way they interact with the brain. For me, I feel as though lsd has (in conjunction with years and years of therapy) helped my brain form connections between areas that didn't develop normally for me. I have a couple neurodevelopmental conditions that are physiologically characterized by some areas of the brain not being as "connected" as they are in people with normal brains. But even if a person doesn't have my conditions, depression produces a similar anatomical phenomenon. A brain that has that feature is said to have "rigid plasticity". Plasticity is the brain's ability to form new neural connections. Psychedelics increase neuroplasticity, the question is how long the changes last. Some studies have shown that people with depression had remained in remission up to six months after experimental treatment with psychedelics. In a controlled setting with clinical support, these substances have enormous utility. But the most important next step is gobs and gobs of research. You are absolutely correct in saying that it is like playing Roulette. Not every brain needs to experience a state of hyper-connectivity, in fact plenty of brains should never!

[@HardcoreZen]

@@ergotoxicosis Yeah... I think these substances have value. But I also feel like most people should stay away from them. They have to be used with tremendous caution. But when I think of the way I used them when I was in my late teens... Gawd! I *thought* I was being cautious. But really, for my first ever trip, I took a hit of acid from someone I'd never met before and then I rode in the back of his pickup truck about 20 miles. THAT is what I thought of as being cautious!

[@pesamesagisum]

@@ergotoxicosis I am so grateful for this thoughtful response. I loathe when people place judgments on the use of things like cannabis for the reasons you've described. I've tried to describe how it helps to my doctors and they have their preconceived notions about it, when I'm sharing how it's helped my experience and helped me become more open and receptive and I've been able to heal much more quickly than just traditional therapy. Thank you!

[@dallasdandigitalproduction393]

Agreed. Being lit or loaded seems like the opposite of mindfulness. When I used to drink and smoke , I was def. seeking to escape whatever was happening, which didn't help. Long story. But I'm really glad to be here learning from your vids Brad👍 Namaste & aloha

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

Dallas Dan Digital Productions : Actually, mindfulness being a practice based in awareness, you can do whatever you want including smoking, drinking...it’s very interesting because say that you are executing an action that intoxicates your body and the function of your head varies, becoming foggy, restless, confuse....you will be knowing all that through the awareness energy of mindfulness, even mindfulness will become difficult to be practiced as concentration, attention, alertness won’t be in their full capacities. Mindfulness and zazen are the two most important and useful tools to any zennist practitioner.

[@dallasdandigitalproduction393]

@@lorenacharlotte8383 Im just speaking for my own experience. I cant smoke or drink and still practice sitting and focusing my mind. It doesnt work for me.

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

Dallas Dan Digital Productions : When you drink you must be aware that you are drinking. Then you must be aware of all activities in your body and mind through the whole process. If anything happens and you carry on, it only means that you are not practicing properly mindfulness. If you were, your view will be very different.

[@dallasdandigitalproduction393]

@@lorenacharlotte8383 fantastic. Good for you

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

Dallas Dan Digital Productions : I beg you pardon. Apologies, You did say that you can’t drink and smoke and then sitting down. You’ve got it at once. Good for you!. Didn’t read you correctly. Apostrophe was missed out and my sight is not good.

[@sequoiasempervirens7244]

my teacher(lineage narita roshi) translates it: don't intoxicate senseless. anyway, for me it always feels like 'don't get high' is what it's meant to be - and everything else is just excuses. it's so damn obvious that buddhist way and drugs do not match... but what the f do i know, i'm just a little rakusu. so it is really nice to see this video that hits the point. keep up the good work, mr warner! gassho from germany

[@gunndlewittlebaum]

Darn it. I was already smoking when I got your notification...

[@Tsotha]

As Alejandro Jodorowsky pointed out in his book "Psychomagic": Most hallucinogenic drugs have EXTREMELY specific useful applications, and you need to use them in VERY carefully controlled settings to actually get those effects out of them. If not, they might end up reinforcing your ego instead which is the polar opposite of any spiritual practice's purpose.

[@snudgegalbraith3447]

Getting high is essentially a numbing agent or running away from pain. We all do this in different ways all the time ofcourse. I guess zazen is in a sense the opposite of getting high. Its the act of not running away or numbing but looking at what presents itself and being open to it.

[@BullyMaguire4ever]

By your definition, psychedelics would not be considered getting “high”. Rather than numbing or running, they seem to be like a magnifying glass.

[@snudgegalbraith3447]

Interesting point

[@BullyMaguire4ever]

Snudge Galbraith although, of course, I think it depends more upon the intention and motivation. Also, as I believe Aldous Huxley said, psychedelics are neither necessary nor sufficient for “salvation”, but I think they can be beneficial to some people in some cases, but to each their own.

[@justahumanbeing.709]

the English translation from the original pali is (from a Theravada website) " I undertake the rule of training to refrain from drugs and drink which tend to cloud the mind." simple.

[@Cleisthenes2]

Thanks, what text(s) is that from?

[@ancom_kc]

My favorite way I’ve heard it is that drugs, psychedelics in particular, are spiritual pornography. Good video.

[@HardcoreZen]

That's an interesting way to put it.

[@FreePercussion]

Interesting metaphor.

[@chrisplaysdrums09]

Oh that’s a good analogy.

[@meherenow729]

Awesome way of looking at it. Thanks for sharing.

[@michaelgehrmann9351]

Spiritual pornography😂

[@mobsteru]

I've read in a book the ten precepts like this: 1. Don't kill 2. Don't steal 3. Don't be gready 4. Don't tell lies 5. Don't be ignorant 6. Don't talk about the other's mistakes 7. Don't praise yourself by critique others 8. Don't be cheap. 9. Don't loose you're temper. 10. Don't talk bad things about the Three Great Teasures

[@HardcoreZen]

There are numerous different versions of the precepts.

[@mobsteru]

@@HardcoreZen Yes, that's why I wrote this version here, just for general purpose. I learned them because I would love to be ordained, I don''t know if I will get the chance, no temples around here, just very far. Best regards from Transilvania!

[@Composer19691]

“To go beyond the body you must be healthy; to go beyond the mind you must have your mind in perfect order. You cannot leave a mess behind and go beyond. The mess will bog you down. “Pick up your rubbish” seems to be the universal law. And a just law, too” -Nisargadatta Maharaj

[@ZenAndPsychedelicHealingCenter]

Yeah, maybe forget about going beyond the mind and body. Advaita isn't Zen.

[@Composer19691]

@@ZenAndPsychedelicHealingCenter Who claimed it was?

[@gypsy4932]

Great video Brad! I recently read Freedom from Addiction by Deepak Chopra and found it quite interesting that at their Rehab center the central tenet for treating any addiction was meditating at least once in the morning and once in the evening. He wrote that as long as people followed that guideline they had a 100% success rate.

[@tyson7687]

My understanding is that the precepts serve as recommendations (please correct me if wrong) and don't serve as a venial rule. Example: We know that marijuana has attributes that help the mind and body. Being mindful of your relationship with the plant is key. Don't abuse or misuse but know why you are taking the plant.

[@HardcoreZen]

I tried that for a while. It didn't work, so I had to stop using it altogether.

[@blackbird5634]

The moment I realized what I wanted out of my practice was a sense of ''attention to now'', all that chemical craving shifted. I started sitting for longer Zazen sessions and the idea of altering my consciousness with anything external seemed silly.

[@JoshuaDb_The_Witness]

i'm not buddhist, though I have been studying the precepts for many years, cause they make sense. So take what i say with a grain of salt. I am AUADHD, can't function without stimulant medication, and cannabis. As a nurodivergent person i have learned that not all nervous systems are wired the same. I don't advocate FOR drugs. But under the right circumstances, drugs, or intoxicants, with guidance and the right intention, can be a life changing and positive experience. And now actual studies are showing these changes to be more tab just some "fuzzy bs attached to nothing", it's not attached to nothing, it's attached to the person having the experience. I don't disagree that without a genuine practice it's all just new age fluffy horse shit, at the same time, my ears perk up when folks speak in absolutes. Much respect

[@starshiptexas]

I take up the way of cultivating a clear mind. Fear holds the cup and I hide in the distortion of its shadow. The cup falls and sunlight blinds with painful brightness. I vow to stand with empty hands, tight chest, trembling, and tears. I vow to stand with eyes open to what is revealed. Who drops the cup? - Rizzzetto --- I like it.

[@mattrkelly]

That sperm-egg metaphor is really good 🤔

[@Theodorelarue]

Thanks Brad!

[@markfuller]

The only problem I have with this is that I suffered from an "upside-down, topsy-turvy way of thinking" without knowing it (for *DECADES*). It was cannabis which exposed me to that reality. I agree that it's about balance. You can't be stoned all the time and experience reality. But, I am living, breathing proof that you can miss reality by living in your head (your narration of your life) and never know it without something like cannabis to help you see things aren't the way you think they are. The way I think of it: our conscious existence _emerges_ from our subconscious. This is perhaps supported by Benjamin Lebet's experiment which discovered that our minds make choices/decisions 2/10ths of a second before our conscious mind believes it made the choice. (That doesn't sound like a long time, but it's enough to show that our conscious mind can confabulate its scope of existence. I think that's the beginning of self-talk, the inner narrative of our existence. It's rationalizing what emerges.). I think mindfulness practices being at that brink of where thoughts emerge. The bring of conscious observance of "I'm really not doing this. Thoughts emerge. All I can do is recognize them, and choose not to think about them right now." I think that's the brink of subsconsciousness. The edge of where our narration begins, our rationalizing. The mild delusion we live in and _firmly_ believe it's reality. We can explain how real it is a million ways -- and DO! I think cannabis puts the mind more in a state like "dreaming while awake." That's more the subconscious while conscious. I think people who say "I smoked cannabis once, and didn't like how I felt" should keep doing it because the sensation is probably correlated to "I depend quite heavily on my sense of self, my confabulated rationalization." When a person is that way, the sensation of cannabis can be like an existential threat. It can be panic invoking, and all because "I don't want to face that my mind is really this way. I like my self-talk, and believing my own lies." I think cannabis is the exact opposite of alcohol (which makes a person more unconscious, and their confabulated/false self more believable. "Liquid courage" instead of herbal dissolving.). I could be spitting hairs, but I wonder if the precept literally referring to alcohol could be because alcohol really is different than other herbal/natural/unprocessed products which are mind altering. For example, the human (and canine) bodies evolved with an endocanababoid system. We're wired to uptake the special compounds in that plant (the way we're wired to uptake special compounds of garlic and ginger via the immune system). By comparison, alcohol is TOXIC. The root of "inTOXICated." It's literally a poison whose only medicinal use is to sterilize wounds. So, I personally (and from my own experiences with both), I'd say alcohol doesn't help at all. It's the opposite of helping. And, cannabis does help tremendously. But, like all things: moderation is key. Smoking all day probably isn't good. But, having once a day (or week, or month) exposures to one's inner self is better than not having it at all. (Once a year is better than never at all.). I think this precept literally singled out alcohol for a reason. I think it's a mistake to conflate it into everything considered "recreational." (Coffee could be in that category. We're not doing that. So, maybe it is reasonable to note how the cannabis flower isn't toxic alcohol.).

[@goatsplitter]

Well said. I've had breakthrough spiritual moments on drugs, and I've gained some good insight, but it's temporary. And while i can remember the lessons, i don't feel them anymore, or and had to get there through practice still. So even the best case scenario is a temporary shortcut. In my experience, anyway. And, I've found that this precept is pretty silly anyway after some time with practicing because you don't even desire or want to have an intoxicated state if mind. Anyway. Comment to support the channel i guess, for what it's worth.

[@t.c.bramblett617]

Chinese really has the conciseness down over everyone else's translations. Beautiful purity of description.

[@akactors]

I find that a few beers or a glass of wine a day end up in place of meditation. The more sober I remain the more hours I spend on the cusion.

[@benhorner8430]

"In a sense, nothing is wrong to do. Right and wrong are just our way of perceiving things, and evaluating how human life can be either in good shape, or in very dangerous shape." Is that what karma is? I think that quote might have just made me understand what karma is. If it is, then it's a lot simpler than I thought, and makes a lot of sense.

[@HardcoreZen]

I think that's part of what Kobun is referring to. If you do the right things, your karma is better, and your life is in good shape.

[@elfbiter]

Trying to find enlightenment through psychedelics is definitely going into delusion with unclear mind.

[@schonlingg.wunderbar2985]

Trying to find enlightenment is definitely going into delusion with unclear mind.

[@MrBreadisawesome]

^

[@marknoble2030]

This may just be my ego speaking, but I am not tempted to use drugs as an aid to practice (well, maybe a WEE BIT tempted) because I generally like to do things myself. For example, I care for my large garden myself, by hand, even though I could pay someone to do it and the garden might look better, and even though I am getting to the age where I will have to hire someone to help or take over. But when I do pay someone, from then on the garden and I won't be as intimate. After all these years of sitting, all these sesshins, if there is some understanding, some opening to reality that comes to me, I want to have a sense that I deserve it, a sense that I am worthy of it. Would it mean as much if it came from a pill or an expensive phone call? That sounds unlikely. There's just something about short cuts. They are, what's a good word, virtueless? I am not condemning people who take an easy option, but neither do I admire them for it. Nobody can go through a day without cutting a few corners and using conveniences, but where Zen practice is concerned, might it not be better, even necessary, to do things the hard way? Again, this is probably parading my ego delusion!

[@ZenAndPsychedelicHealingCenter]

Drugs aren't an easy option and Zen isn't particularly hard. It's just that so many want something done for them, whether through drugs or some other way, that they find it hard to break the habit of wanting something external (or internal on one level), to fix them, of wanting something that will do the work for them.

[@bartfart3847]

I take medical Cannabis to deal with the Anxiety, depression, Anger and insomnia from my PTSD. Since I do not live by selling liquor, I thinking Im Good.

[@ART_EYELAND]

One thing I’ve noticed about drinking is that it “turns off” some type of self observational sensitivity. Drinking, while it can be a quick fix, it actually blocks inner resources of happiness. Those great inner resources that most meditators discover become blurry or unreachable during intoxication.

[@markfuller]

IMO, alcohol is the opposite of cannabis, and that the precept may have been specific in its target for a reason. Like others note, cannabis often does lead the person to a more honest sense of self (which can be very painful. I think the people who say "i tried it and didn't like how it made me feel" are the people who should keep using it. They should experience that feeling more. If it's nothing, then no reason to fear experiencing it. But, it's probably their conscious self feeling threatened existentially by the exposure -- out of the conscious self's control -- to their subconscious. The more disintegrated their subconscious is, the more they rely on their consciously confabulated existence. A threat to that would be like riding a bicycle for the first time with no training wheels. The more you depend on those training wheels, the more terrified you'll be as you experience doing it without.). Anyway, I think that's the opposite of alcohol. Alcohol seems to put the person further from their subconscious, and makes the confabulated/grandiose self more believable. "Liquid courage." It's the opposite of cannabis being humbling, inward dwelling. It's a way to escape problems (and then face them when you're sick with a hangover) whereas cannabis actually makes the person feel a little worse because their problems come to mind (they can't narrate their toughts where they want. Reality can way heavily. Then when you come off the high, you feel more refrehsed and aware of the problem you have to deal with, and it's not as threatening. It's the opposite of alcohol which is more of an "escape."). I think there's something to be said about how alcohol's only medicinal purpose is to sterilize wounds. It's literally toxic, providing the root of "inTOXicated." Compare that to how the human (and canine) body evolved with an endocanabanoid system with receptor sites for compounds found in cannabis. Like the immune system has receptors for compounds in garlic, ginger, echanacia, etc. It's totally different than the literally poisonous nature of alcohol.

[@JustFortheRecord66]

Getting high can relax one’s mental defenses and enhance awareness of sensory and mental stimuli. It’s is not clouding the mind in the way that depressants like alcohol do.

[@thefrantasticmissfine]

Was twisting one up for the afternoon then saw the thumbnail😕

[@georgeellis777]

Love this!

[@Cleisthenes2]

So, if I've understood correctly 1. the Bramajala Sutra's reason why you shouldn't deal in liquor (that it causes beings harms by causing a 'topsy-turvy way of thinking') also implies that it'll be harmful for the seller too if he drinks it - but it seems to just assume that a Buddhist practitioner won't himself drink alcohol; 2. Earlier versions of the precepts say not to drink, not just to sell alcohol; 3. Dogen also seems to take 'not selling wine' to mean you shouldn't cloud your own mental 'brightness' with alcohol. Am I wrong that the tradition of most Buddhists in Asia is also to avoid alcohol and drugs? I've had Western Buddhist friends and teachers tell me that this precept was just about not intoxicating the mind with negativity, not about substances, but I always thought this sounded implausible. I'm a moderate drinker and take prescription drugs and I don't think I want to stop doing either completely. So, it seems to me that I can't honestly take this precept.

[@zigeunerart]

Along with the usual alcohol, cocaine, and cannabis… I would also include caffeine, nicotine, and certain perception drugs under the fifth precept… people underestimate how powerful a drug caffeine is, and how difficult it can be to get off it … but trust me, if you can get off caffeine you will be amazed: get more sleep, water, AND sugar!! PS sugar is not a drug, sugar is an essential nutrient to the body!!

[@adamJKpunk]

I don’t know why anyone would rage out over this. I mean, zen or not, it’s probably not a good idea to be drunk all the time just in general. That probably goes for just about anything, too much of anything isn’t going to be good, whether it’s booze, weed or bananas.

[@jfay124]

Brad, I heard you mention on an older video that Nishijima and most Japanese Zen teachers were what most Americans would consider very conservative in his political and social views. Why do you think American Buddhism and the Soto Zen community in particular are the complete opposite to include many being ok with some drug use?

[@HardcoreZen]

I think a big reason is how and when Zen Buddhism came to the US. It first started becoming popular in large coastal cities in the 1960s. San Francisco, in particular, but also Los Angeles, New York, and other places. The people who became the first generation of American born practitioners had previously been San Francisco hippies. They brought their political views and their attitudes to drugs with them. Often they tried to justify these views through Buddhism. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. I'm not sure if some of those teachers are able to tell the difference.

[@johnparsons9294]

Well, at least I know I just have a borderline drinking problem and don't think it's some kind of spiritual experience I guess...

[@nyontha2590]

Bahaha speaking in Atman, we just keep arguing about what is right to ourselves over and over again.

[@inishmannin]

Well our brains makes all sorts of endogenous similar drugs so interfering with your natural processes creates a negative feedback and it can take weeks/ months to be able to produce these natural endorphines, DMT , cannabinoids and many others that are so finely tuned.

[@thomaserickson568]

Ok cool. Thanks man.

[@markusschipke5975]

Please come over again to Munich, Germany, and I''ll buy you a jar or two of our famous beer. It's an almoust sacred beverage protected by a very special 'precept', the purity order of 1516: no harmful substances may intoxicate its production. Moreover many traditional breweries descend from Christian monasteries. It's worthy of a Buddha!

[@thefrantasticmissfine]

But Markus, can giving or consuming alchohol ever be ethical (under capitalism)? I kid

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank you! I am sure to be in Munich again. I go every year. The person who organizes my tours of Europe lives there. But I don't think I'll drink any beer. I've decided that I need to be very strict with myself about this precept. I will, however, eat a big pretzel with you!

[@markusschipke5975]

@@thefrantasticmissfine I'm a declared opponent of catpeealeism. Giving away a lager which is capital is far more ethical than selling a cat pee ale.

[@markusschipke5975]

@@HardcoreZen The pretzel shape is endless. I vow to share one with you.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@markusschipke5975 I AM SO HAPPY! I love Bavarian pretzels. They can't make them correctly over here.

[@michaellyle8769]

This is where I fail.

[@skrrskrr99]

*ram dass has entered the chat*

[@JSmusiqalthinka]

What are your thoughts on someone like Ikkyu Sojun in regards to this precept. Apparently he was rather bad at this one haha.

[@HardcoreZen]

I think Ikkyu was able to reach people who would not ordinarily be interested in the dharma. So I can't be too critical of him. But I don't think it's a good idea to imitate his behavior.

[@kendallpigg5097]

This has been on my mind, as I love a (single) beer after work. Along with eating meat, I assume this will have to go by the wayside as I get more serious about my practice. Thoughts?

[@HardcoreZen]

Ultimately, it's up to you. I became a vegetarian just a few months before I discovered Buddhism. So, to me, they're separate matters. Not all Buddhists are vegetarian. Neither of my Zen teachers were, and yet both encouraged me to continue my vegetarianism. They thought it was better to be vegetarian. As for the beer, again, it's your choice. I've practiced at times when I would smoke marijuana occasionally and at times when I did not. The practice was always clearer and better at times when I did not. For me, getting serious about zazen meant giving up intoxicants entirely.

[@kendallpigg5097]

@@HardcoreZen Thank you.

[@danielbowman7226]

Be careful about unearned wisdom....someone important said, probably Jung. Also if you are already Zen chilled, taking in artificial otherwise mild chillers, can send you to the other dimension...not always a nice trip.

[@markfuller]

That's a good way to put it. I come at it as "cannabis can be a conduit to seeing through the self-talk, the confabulated self." It was for me. But, you're right: there is a point where reality sets in and cannabis doesn't add to that. There's a point where you have to use your more honest sense of self and engage with the real world as that newly understood (or growing in understanding) person. Cannabis can keep the person inward focused when they should be more in the application stage. Even then, I think once-a-month re-visits with cannabis can be positive (or never negative). I think the risk is chronic overuse. A way of life rather than a tool to re-center one self, and get honest with one self. A "bad trip" could be positive if the person uses it to engage with the world as a more honest person (more outward facing than inward). They might not have had that realization without the "bad trip." One person's unpleasant visit with their mind is another person's getting honest with themselves.

[@wadecleveland9001]

You don't want to jeopardize your freedom or endowments.

[@Fakery]

Thoughts on caffeine? tea, coffee, energy drinks? I feel these are so pervasive in our society it almost feels silly to seriously discuss caffeine as intoxicating, yet it does undeniably give a buzz, is extremely harmful to clarity (mostly by destroying sleep), and is insidiously addictive. Is there a typical zen view on this?

[@HardcoreZen]

The only thing close to a Zen view on caffeine is the legend that Bodhidharma fell asleep when meditating and got so mad that he ripped his own eyelids off and threw them on the ground. The eyelids then sprouted into tea leaves to help future practitioners stay awake while doing zazen. They drink lots of tea at Zen temples. That's why there's a tea ceremony. As for me, I developed a problem from too much coffee a number of years ago. These days I can't drink any caffeine at all or it gives me outrageous headaches. It's absolutely an addictive substance.

[@joeconti3599]

@@HardcoreZen lol what the actual...hahah

[@woodygould]

@@HardcoreZen I'm trying to imagine most of Zen without LOTS tea, which means LOTS of caffeine...

[@justicewarrior2570]

If a person follows the five precepts and practice generosity then can this person go to heaven?

[@lopezb]

I like best the last part: at 12:20.

Watching this again a year later and thinking that it's not just about intoxicants: it's about keeping the mind clear and not using anything to hide from reality. So that could be me with my reading, or somebody else glued to their smartphone, or Netflix or the obsessive exerciser who is running away from the reality of their bad marriage or things like that...

[@osip7315]

zen is so difficult it requires full intellectual faculties all your life, if you damage your brain with substances then you are out of the game the irony now is that "zen" has become life wallpaper for people with substance abuse problems, its perceived "nihilism" justifying their abuse the question about any drug is do they do permanent brain damage and people seem to vary hugely in this, even one dose of LSD can really damage some, others not so much just asking that question can get you banned from certain portions of the web the net is full of mental health problems and drug abuse, its easy just to write self-justifying bullshit, with what your life actually is tucked away unchanged

[@Fantersam]

Any references on the permanent brain damage? Am quite intrigued. Goes a little far to say you are „out of the game“ though.

[@Fantersam]

If it hadn‘t been for serious psychedelic experiences, I suppose I wouldnt have ended up with buddhism. I had to recognize that the two together are not sustainable in the long run though

[@osip7315]

@@Fantersam yes, a bit far. its an ambiguous area, really each drug has to be researched and actually some psychiatric medications are really toxic, witness jordan peterson almost being killed by benzos, how he didn't know about the problems with them, i don't know

[@notbob6922]

You can absolutely have real insights on drugs, the problem is you have no way to ground it and apply it to life, no true understanding.

[@MakeDemocracyMagnificientAgain]

Who decides wether it's misuse or use? Who defines misuse and use? Me? My friends or family members? My Guru? My inner Self? As long as you can't say with a good amount of certainty, it's probably misuse, I guess...

[@HardcoreZen]

I think that's true, about "as long as you can't say."

[@alextrusk1713]

Leo Gura disliked this video.

[@charliecrome207]

Leo "I run a cult" gura

[@austinhill5825]

Aren't there Zen monks that drink alcohol?

[@HardcoreZen]

There certainly are!

[@ronmcbee4743]

I seem to remember David Carridine (sp) saying they had a zen monk on the set who closed the bar every nite? Whatever. I don’t drink or do drugs.

[@davidhylas2475]

What about crazy wisdom?

[@HardcoreZen]

I think I did a video on that. Or did I? Here's a blog I did on the subject in 2011. hardcorezen.info/crazy-wisdom-or-just-plain-nuts/185/comment-page-2

[@justahumanbeing.709]

crazy wisdom is......…...…....crazy!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Judging form European history, overly control-prone puritanism (--> Zwingli, Calvin) can produce quite contrary effects---although, possibly, in more cases than not, unintended. It is interesting that, in Japan, among the "new schools" you find as well the ones of Zen (Rinazi, Sôto, Ôbaku) as thosse of the Jodô(-shin)shû (the Nichiren-school would be an extra case). The (New) Pure Land-school shows some similarities with the Evangelican Lutherans, as Dr. Martin Luther propagated the "sola fide" (i.e., resurection only via belief/faith). Are Pure-Land people for Zen-people haeretics? What about "mixed" versions of practice and belief? What is the Zen attitude towards Pure-Land, in general?

[@HardcoreZen]

In general, Zen people tend to get along well with Pure Land Buddhists. I used to sit zazen at a Pure Land temple in Chicago. It's pretty common for Pure Land people to sit zazen. Kodo Sawaki and Kosho Uchiyama were interested in Pure Land Buddhism. Uchiyama Roshi used to chant nembutsu. They both talked about it sometimes. Neither of my main teachers had much to say about Pure Land (positive or negative). Pure Land Buddhists have some beliefs that are not like Zen Buddhists. But nothing in their beliefs is absolutely contradictory to any beliefs Zen people commonly hold. I mean, if you ask me, I'd say, sure, maybe there is a Buddha named Amida who lives in the Pure Land and maybe you can be reborn there if you chant his name. It doesn't seem impossible to me. But I am not personally attracted to that sort of idea. I don't think most Zen people would think of Pure Land Buddhists as heretics. As for mixing... I don't know. I think that if you want to follow a certain path it's best to follow that path in a pure way and not mix it with another path.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@HardcoreZen yeah, thanks, I see. What regards the rules, the Pure-Land people seem more relaxed (and therefore appealingly human). But, then again, especially for a Westerner, it isn`t easy to really belief in the existence of Amida-Buddha and the Western Paradise or Pure Land; many would rather think of a fairy-tale. Many moons ago, I read the study of a German physician: Günter Schüttler, about "Satori-Erfahrungen" in Japan. It was the first, and, for a long time, the last really (natural)scientific treatise on Zen-matters. Some of the ex-post reports of the practitioners, presented in it, were quite abstract, to which "enlightened" (ger.: aufgeklärte) "Western rationalists" most probably can relate much easier, than to heavenly utopias,. But who really knows for sure? For the time being, agnosticism is also an option.

[@joelbridgman555]

Chyogyam Trungpa did not follow this precept

[@gracefoster4861]

True. I think he was a brilliant teacher and I learned a lot from his books. I do think his drinking and accompanying abuses (of others) takes away somewhat from the rest. I don't think alcohol makes anyone smarter or enlightened, it lowers inhibitions and good judgement.

[@joelbridgman555]

@@gracefoster4861 I'm finding that the unnatural horrific pressures that are being perpetuated against us (average humans) has driven me to use some psychoactive substances responsibly...Plant medicine is so helpful during these times

[@flashrobbie]

Cool, I don't but in the referendum on marijuana legalisation in 6 weeks I'm voting yes so it can become a health issue rather than legal issue.

[@HardcoreZen]

Yeah. I get that.

[@gregwallace552]

You've obviously never taken psychedelics or know anything about the subject. There happens to be a lot of research proving that these "sacred medicines," as Jack Kornfield calls them, can be very beneficial if used properly. Meditation is good too of course, and I always feel like I'm on psychedelics by the end of every retreat I've ever attended, and there's nothing like that feeling of rapture that I get in my daily sitting. I stick with the original precepts as taught by the Buddha and recorded in the Pali Canon. So I don't drink alcohol. I rarely use psychedelics anymore either, far less than once a year, but that has nothing to do with the precept.

[@HardcoreZen]

Oh I have taken psychedelics!

[@gregwallace552]

@@HardcoreZen Then I stand corrected. For me they were the gateway to zen and Buddhism. After tripping, Indra's Net makes perfect sense. Now I only use them for pain relief. I have chronic leukemia and one small dose once every two or three years works wonders, far better than opiate pain relievers, non-addictive, and without side effects.

[@gregwallace552]

@@HardcoreZen I agree that psychedelics by themselves will not lead to enlightenment. However, I do think they can point you in the right direction. Soon after starting to use them, I decided it would be a good idea to start reading Alan Watts (this was back in the '70s and he was kind of fashionable) and that led me to D.T. Suzuki, Shunryu Suzuki and to SFZC. And it was Buddhism that seemed to match up to most closely to the insights I had gained on psychedelics so I've stuck with it. I agree with you that it is irresponsible to promote psychedelics as part of Buddhist practice though and of course, they can be dangerous.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@gregwallace552 I am glad psychedelics are being researched for uses like you're using them for. I take triptans for headaches, which are derived from LSD. They work wonders.

[@gregwallace552]

@@HardcoreZen By the way, apologize for jumping the gun in my original comment. I hadn't finished the video or I wouldn't have said that you hadn't tried them or known anything about them. Obviously, I was in error. And I basically agree with what you said. I'm subscribing to your channel now.