650b vs 700c for Gravel // A Game Of Millimeters!!

[@stevenh.9685]

I have a 56mm Diverge Expert DI2 1-by with a non-standard 36 tooth Wolf Tooth front chainring, which I need for climbing in Oregon's mountain ranges. I changed my stock G540 wheelset for a pair of Enve AG28 Foundation 650B wheels. I also traded out the very fast on the road but very sketchy on loose gravel 38 mm Specialized Pathfinder Pros tires for 50 mm Panaracer Gravel Kings SKs. (Both run tubeless.) This setup is a bit slower on the road but way better on non-luxury gravel. Dropping about 500 grams per wheel is very noticeable. The big meaty tires suck up hits and feel much more stable on steep downhills. I get an occasional pedal strike on rooty paths but rarely on forest roads. I've run this setup for over 2 years and hundreds of miles. No racing. I love this setup and, thanks to your video, I now know why this setup is more fun and stable!

[@ZenEndurance]

I have to run a 650 in the rear to get the fatness I need for deeper gravel and sand but still fit in the frame. I leave the front at 700, but put on same width tire as the back, no frame fit issues. Works great. Handles better in the chunk, no slower. gravelmullet for life!

[@darrelduke]

i read (in an article related to trade and import/export) that specialized restricted the 700c tire size to 38mm as to not incur additional tax and or tariffs. a wider tire as written in trade agreements (import/export) that anything wider would constitute the diverge being taxed as a "mountain bike". which would increase overall costs for specialized.

[@samuraioodon]

Would love more 700c and 650b comparison videos, love your explanations! Thank you brother 😊

[@Ainttrippin]

Listening to this guy talk about bikes is better than cocaine.

[@janeblogs324]

Maybe better than your 50th bump

[@TheBikeSauce]

😆 you have made my day.

[@hardmtnbiker]

Lol

[@Gieszkanne]

So you know how cocaine is. Interesting!

[@EliTheEnlightened]

I finally understand trail. Wow, what an amazingly simple way to break it down thank you.

[@donaldwalter1317]

My bike was originally designed for 650B tires and I’ve ridden venture byway and other similar venture tires rated at 47mm width with 10psi less than rated max. I use tubes in my tires as I’ve never had much success in getting great seals with tubeless. I use my bike for touring on dirt, gravel trails with asphalt road. They seem to offer good traction, comfortable ride on mixed surfaces. My previous bikes I had ridden with 26” scwalbe marathon plus at 37mm width. They are excellent touring tire on mixed surfaces with great flat protection. I than heard about Continental Contact Plus in 650bx50 size. These tires resemble the scwalbe tire in tire protection but I rode with a 10psi reduced tire pressure as their rated maximum and yet they measure 46mm width, that’s no where near the rated 50mm that’s stated for these tires. On extended loaded bike tours of mostly asphalt I probably would ride the Continental but for actual comfort on mixed Terrain the Venture tires are a better choice. 8:06

[@Iris421989]

the exact video, and casual tone i was looking for. gr8

[@kevinlinares9060]

To properly enjoy the benefits of 650b I believe the bike has to be built around this wheel set. I’ve tried three separate bike brands that were built around 700c but claimed to be compatible with 650b. The best way I describe these bikes with 650b was like riding a bmx. Once I got a bike specifically made for 650b the steering and trail were stable. I experimented with 700c but quickly found that this wheelset on a 650b made the bike fell like I was riding a horse, and cornering was terrifying.

[@jruizzz17]

Do you have specific models that are made for 650b's?

[@PolyglotBikepacker]

This video is amazing, what a professional way of presenting

[@GravelRacer1]

Excellent video on this topic. My gravel bike has a small frame designed for 650B wheels. I love them.

[@rohangayle9130]

Luv yr style,no blah blah,.simple,sufficent breakdown,run vittoria coyote 2.1,planted yet agile nuff off road,on my kona nrb rove,only limiatation is your own ability..good work again

[@TheBikeSauce]

Thx for the feedback!

[@rufflycorrect]

I run a winter setup on my gravel bike and swap out a 700c wheelset with 38mm tyres (29" x 1.5") with 650b wheels plus 53mm Teravail Rutland tyres (27.5" x 2.1"). The actual difference in overall wheel diameter is only about 1cm, or less than half an inch and the gearing feels almost unchanged. There is a bit more weight in the bike due to lights, mudguards, flats instead of clipless - and of course heavier tyres. Aside from having more off-road tractability, the whole setup feels more planted, if noticeably slower. I'm convinced most of the change in handling (not to mention increased comfort) is down to the tyres. It's a very workable setup, but if I'm honest, I can't wait to get back to the summer rig which is just more exciting and gives a sense of wanting to go.

[@michaelwtapp]

I have a diverge sport in 52. I have a 700c wheelset and a 650b wheelset and I def have more pedalstrikes with the 650b wheelset. I have slick tires on my 700c wheels for road rides and I use the 650bs for the bumpier terrain. Changing the wheels makes it feel like a different bike!

[@jonenri]

Other than pedal strike, would u advise against it? (What size slicks 33/35/38) Egg beater pedals i run might be less pedal strike. Add more clearance for bike packing bags also 52 diverge here

[@michaelwtapp]

@@jonenriYeah, 650b def adds more clearance for bags. I don't regret having 2 wheel sets

[@nikveldkamp8630]

Pedal/ground strokes also depend of course massively on crank length - we both (5'10", 5'11") are running 165mm cranks on quite different gravel rigs. While the smaller Bombtrack Hook EXT in size M creates some toe overlap with 700c x 2.1", we never had pedal issues while on the 650b wheelset with 48mm tires.

[@joshuaallswang8016]

He’s 5’8”

[@nikveldkamp8630]

@@joshuaallswang8016 meaning .. that he could benefit even more of short cranks or which wheel size or what? 😹 Sorry, but after 10 months I need more context.

[@JosephDowski]

Love the 650B content! ❤

[@mattdrange4219]

Impulse to skid! Love it 😎

[@davec6087]

Great video. I currently run 700 x43 Panaracer GKSK, on my New Albion Drake, which was designed for 650 B. For most graded surfaces, gravel or rough paved, I prefer the roll of 700c. I had the bike set up with 650b initially and while it was cushy and fine on gravel, I found I did not like it as much as pavement. Sure climbed great due to smaller diameter effectively lowering the gearing though. BB drop is less on the Drake as compared to my Soma DX, so saddle is a bit taller in relation to top tube but It feels very stable in cornering.

[@lundoftheeast219]

I've been running the 48mm RH knobbies on same Diverge and they fit great! Fast supple and great traction. Looking forward to your thoughts

[@christopherrahilly8425]

One of the best things of 650b and I only ride them on my gravel bike is how well they climb. GCN did an interesting show about it and they just climb quicker, plus the comfort is something I love about my 605b. I ride a Chumba Terlingua steel frame and it is just amazing how fun my bike is with the 650b and convinced (as a larger rider) that they are stronger. Great video .

[@the.communist]

Theres no physical proof that 650b climb better

[@SonnyDarvish]

I can only imagine smaller diameter wheels help with the climbs that the rider is struggling with, which indicates the gearing system is not sufficient to hold a minimum momentum. In other words, the reason it can feel faster is the same reason that shorter crank arms require more torque to get the bike going from a standstill.

[@croweatr]

I've ridden my Ridley X-Trail with 27.5x2.3" Maxxis Minions in an XC race! Not heaps of frame clearance left after that - I was pushing it - but heaps of fun, especially in the wet! It was a fairly rocky trail but didn't notice too much pedal strike. 700c definitely better for longer, smoother rides. Get one of each is my counsel!

[@gwilletts]

Great analysis as usual! I have a 1st gen Ritchey Outback and although 650Bs are not ISO compliant like the 2nd gen, I swapped in a pair of DT Swiss with 48’ Panaracer GKs. Def an increase in pedal strike but you can mostly avoid it. As u said they’re more playful than 700c and I agree about wanting to skid out more :) overall they similar to measurements of a 700c with 28s

[@TheBikeSauce]

Sounds like such a cool bike.. 🤘

[@Finx5008]

As someone who is 6' 5" tall, and rides a 61cm frame, i found the downsides of th 650bs to be significant compared to the upsides. The higher volume made for increased 'bounce' when hammering flats. Im lucky that my Norco Search XR-C has more than ample room for 47mm tires on 700c rims, especially the wider internal diameter versions. For my g/f though, who rides a 44cm gravel bike, 650b are the best (and really only) option for her. And there really are no downsides (she has very short cranks so pedal strikes are not an issue). She can run her 650s with 32mm road'ish tires, or 50mm knobbies, and everything in between and there are no negative handling effects on a frame that size. I think the benefit of 650b is that it gives frame designers options for smaller riders to design a small bike that is viable with no toe overlap and keeping the geometry reasonable.

[@dodginglions5163]

Great video!…very informative!…thanks for sharing this!…😎

[@ladakhsail1]

I found the peddle strike was a real issue...swapped back to 700c from 650b and dont miss them at all.

[@TheBikeSauce]

Nice. So cool to hear how many have experimented with wheel size and come to their own solution that works

[@lexington476]

My first gravel bike turned out to be a Salsa Journeyer grx600 650b, I had been wanting to get the 700c version. But no warehouse in the country had one in my size, so I really wanted the bike so I got the 650b version. Being a big-time roadie, I was really skeptical about the 650bs, so I'm thinking yeah I'll just get another set of 700c wheels for it. then I got the bike, and took it for a few rides, and just like you say in this video, those 650b wheels are really nimble and it is just a fun bike to ride with those wheels.

[@kyuseokim988]

On my Specialized Diverge 54cm with singletrack focus, 650b is the bomb! 2.1 tires, “in” the bike feeling, no toe overlap on switchbacks. Pedal strikes are something I’ve learnt to deal with, alas can’t have em all.

[@TheBikeSauce]

Right on!

[@ianmcgibbonhe_his2442]

try shorter cranks... I went from 170mm to 165mm cranks on my Kona Rove and it made a huge difference with pedal strikes.

[@jabrobbins]

Looking forward to your experiment with the 48mm Rene Herse tires. I’ve been considering them for my Diverge too.

[@TheBikeSauce]

Should fit, but always hard to know. Also, may change the geometry

[@michaelgustav3035]

Good one, thanks 👍😊, Enjoy the ride 😄👋

[@p504504]

I’m thinking about doing just the opposite. I have a Kona Sutra with 650bx47 mm tyres, and I’m currently on the hunt for some cheap 700c aero wheels so I can try out 28-32 mm slick tyres when I’m going strictly on road.

[@deverenfogle3201]

I guess it really comes down to if you want your gravel bike to feel more like a high performance road bike while on gravel, or if you want it to feel more akin to a rigid mountain bike. Using the wider 650b wheels with fatter tires will provide a feeling to a traditional road setup.

[@automat8]

Thank you

[@hackfabrication139]

See a lot of videos on swapping from 700c to 650b wheels, but have yet to see one for a 650b to 700c swap. I'd like to swap from the 650b's on my bike to 700c's, mostly because the variety of tire sizes/tread patterns, are greater in 700c. I don't know if my Priority 600 can fit 700c wheels, but over the winter may do some measuring.

[@daviddemoise3526]

I’ve been considering the swap on my gravel bike so this info really helped. Being my gravel bike is really a cross bike(Kona Jake the snake) the tire clearance isn’t that great and the toe overlap is horrible even on my 56cm frame.

[@alexandrelebel1439]

Would curious to see a comparison in effort for same speed with same tire quality

[@chacmool2581]

1:56 So, wait, my rear wheel with 36 spokes, beefy tube, 2.25" (58mm) tire, 160mm rotor and 11-46 steel cogset at 2.4kg could be considered light? Oh yeah, its a ISO406 size wheel. 5:17 You ought to calculate this as a relative rather than as an absolute change. If so, the relative change there is about 6%. (Start - End) ÷ Start And since you are talking fundamental geometry change, let's not forget about angle of attack, which tells you about the ease or mechanical advantage in simply rolling obstacles. In this case, there is a relative decrease of 3% with decreasing wheel size. You gotta account for both the gains and losses, bro. I'd be interested in a reverse comparo, 700c wheels on a 650b frame. My final thought is that if you are interested in swapping wheel sizes as the need and whim arises, the two sizes to pick are 700c and 26". There the differences will be more pronounced and better justify the effort and cost.

[@jfspurlin1]

Great info, thanks! I've been thinking about trying 650b wheels on a Lynskey Backroad frame for improved handling. With 700c wheels I have more toe overlap than I'd prefer, but might be trading that for more pedal strikes with 650b because this frame has low BB height. It's really a touring frame but I've built it for all-terrain use (other than technical single track).

[@drwproductions1]

I’m a new subscriber to your channel and I’m really enjoying your videos here. I like 650b tubeless for off-road.

[@TheBikeSauce]

Thanks and welcome! Yea they make a ton of sense for off-road chunkiness

[@aarons9198]

650b is more fun. Yes More pedal strikes, just account for it. Worth it.

[@SurpriseMeJT]

It all depends on bottom bracket drop of the frameset. I prefer to ride a bike designed and optimized for a specific wheel size. If I had to guess though, a bb drop of 60mm or a bit less would be good for 650b.

[@davidbee9563]

That's a big difference in tire diameter. It seems there is an image issue with fat tires on gravel bikes(bigger than 50mm). So manufacturers have made room to put 42 or 45mm tires on 700C rims. This works for larger frames but not so well for smaller ones. But the benefit of increasing volume diminishes as the stock size increases. So a 700/38 equals 650/60. More tire than would likely fit a non boost frame. It is easier to add 5 mm of diameter to a frame than 10 mm of rear tire width. I have put 650/38 on my road bike which was deigned for a 700/23 without modifying the frame. It is only 8mm smaller than the equivalent diameter but is more than double the volume. I changed the dropouts and a 700/30 fits on the rear, 28 on the front. This feels faster than stock and less responsive to turn in. It does seem to inspire confidence to carry more speed in the corners. But the difference in ride is amazing with the 650/38 feeling more like a touring bike than a road bike. The 4mm drop of BB is noticeable but not a deal breaker. Surly sells a model with 650 or 700 wheels. Frame angles are similar but fork length and chainstay length are reduced noticeably. Obviously BB height changed as well. In the last issue of BQ there was a write up on a 650B bike designed to race on gocart tracks in Italy! With the wider tires giving more grip due to lower pressures. That must be a wild ride with crazy lean angles. Also a bit written by some guy about the Ritchey Ascent with 650B tires...

[@TheBikeSauce]

Haha great dissertation. Thanks for the feedback.Also, yes I saw that article on the Ascent too. They’re just letting anyone write articles these days..😀

[@Fatbutnotflat]

Switching from 700x42 to 650b x 48 has insane handling change for me. 75 to 68 trail i think, Much twitchier/nimbler but i actually enjoy it, encourages me to avoid potholes. Really appreciate the reduction in overall height and toe overlap. Am convert since.

[@TheBikeSauce]

Nice! What just wiped out hard on my 700c set yesterday in the dirt. I don’t think I would have if I were still on the knobby 650s

[@Fatbutnotflat]

@@TheBikeSauce the thing is, i am using gravelking SK as all-road 650b, so i dont even use 650b for knobs. But i actually don't feel that much drag on smooth roads.

[@davet003.5]

Hey Nolan - Thanks for the video. My LBS has very few 650’s in stock and I recall other BS’ where I popped in to window shop having mostly 700’s and 29’ers. If the same for you, it means that 650 limits optionality. Perhaps its the supply chain and will resolve over time.

[@andarenbici]

Your foot looked low, and I think the Diverge has a big BB drop. Great video!

[@JesseStarrPhoto]

What crank length are you running? That has a big impact on pedal strikes tail.

[@hardmtnbiker]

Great evaluation and you touched on everything.The calculator that you used is really nice too. Although the numbers are proof of the differences, the true value is the way the bike feels. Tire pressure has a lot of impact on that too, I know that there’s an online tool for that too. From my perspective I see the value of 650b and wider tires for being off-road or extra comfort on rough and broken pavement. I have put 700x50c tires on my gravel bike and I didn’t like the toe overlap. 700x45c is about the max for my small frame and big feet. I’m running 700x40c American Classic Kimberlite now or 700x43c Panaracer GK tires. Both are nicely priced. The main difference I think is the smaller wheels make your bike feel more agile on trails but more sluggish on hard pack and road mixed rides. BTW I have the Garmin Rally XC200 pedals to. I pair with my Edge 530 and Polar Vantage V2 watch with H10 HRM strap. I could probably do some cycling test and compare that data.

[@zachs6191]

should be noted that the diverge BB is already super low compared to most gravel bikes

[@julo7138]

Great video ! Kona libre CR with 650b here… always feel that the turns where a little « off » with the stock wheels, some kind of weird inertia that counter my dropbar and also a bit rough on roots. Changing for 700c erases all that strange feelings… (same tires… wtb resolute). What about the gear ratio? Is switching from 700c to 650b has a impact (like loosing 2 teeth on the crank set ?)?

[@TheBikeSauce]

Good question. Sounds like a video is in order.. 😆

[@julo7138]

@@TheBikeSauce 😃yeah

[@marekbabal392]

Thanx for this comparison, I was curious how 650b wheels/tires compare to 700 on gravel bike. Maybe I am wrong, I think 650b wheels with wide tires do not make much sense on gravel. I recently made a test, compared my MTB XC HT 29“, 2,25” tires to my gravel with 2 wheel sets. The path was a mixed tarmac with lite terrain/gravel roads. First wheel set with slick 38mm tires, I was much faster on those than on my MTB. My second wheel set I had a 700x50 rear tire (Maxxiss Rambler) front even wider 2,1“. I was faster than on the MTB, but not much. 50mm in general as already mentioned is too wide for gravel, later I changed it for the same Rambler 45mm. I think when the tire width is so close to a MTB width, it does not make much sense, then it is better to ride a MTB and have more confidence with flat bars and a more comfortable ride. 650b wheels with even wider tires would be even slower which would make a MTB 29“ really close if not even faster.

[@the_nondrive_side]

i've done both and ride often between. oddly I find the 7 speed vs 8 speed spacing hub changes drive side tension more than the 650-700c... I have it exagerated with a 7 speed 650b and 29er 8 speed. as well as a rim brake 700c 7speed with a really deep rim you can really feel the stiffer ride in 700c regardless of tire size. I actually really like a 42mm tire on any size rim.. even 26".. whatever the 1.75 is.. the 1.95-2.1 seems limits with smaller frames I ride. I ride a 27.5 2.1/1.95 swapped 26" 95 930 SHX most.. a Brodie Bolt 700c 38mm and a 7300fxdisc 29er swapped oh also 2021 indie 27.5. don't convert it.. just N+1

[@GlennChu]

Tesseract 🤘👌

[@TheBikeSauce]

🤘🤘top 5 all time for me

[@kimbriannielsen4726]

Hvor kan den købes ?

[@mountainbikingwithalan]

🤟🏽🤟🏽🤟🏽🤟🏽

[@kwennemar]

I ride MTB and did a similar test on 700x66, 700x60 and 650x72 on my bikes this year. The smaller wheel tends to drop into berms better than the larger wheels. If I were interested in speed I would change the chainring to a bigger one on the 650.

[@michaelpearce6982]

Any notes on pwr in relation to speed?

[@TheBikeSauce]

Nothing scientific. Although BQ has shown that wheel diameter doesn’t affect rolling resistance like we once assumed

[@jeremymcpherson9405]

I run both sizes on my trek domane hp+ and the 650bs are certainly more supple and inspire off-road attempts. The 700c wheels do feel faster to me. The difference is probably negligible though and the added comfort the wider tires afford is huge to me. That being said both of my wheelsets are just fine. I would say that anything more than really tame off-road trails requires me to just bring out my full squish mtb. I happen to be fortunate enough to own some very nice bikes though so there is that.