6v6: The Worst Argument in Overwatch

Join us as we delve into the world of Overwatch and discuss the infamous 6v6 argument, widely regarded as the worst argument in the game's history. From online gaming disputes to heated discussions about Overwatch 2 and the esports scene, this video covers it all. Stay tuned for all the drama, rants, and news surrounding Overwatch 2, as well as insights into game development and the future of this beloved team-based shooter. Whether you love a good gaming rant or simply enjoy the thrill of a hero shooter, this video has something for everyone. Are you ready to dive into the world of Overwatch 2 and explore the controversy surrounding 6v6 gameplay? Let's jump in!
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Be sure to leave a like and a comment on what you would like to see in the future! And tell me if you want to see 6v6 come back!

[@bushman7733]

your opinion is extremely wrong, 6v6 is superior, that's how ow was supposed to be played

[@blaine4754]

Everyone agrees that tank is a terrible position right now. It is blatantly obvious why. They removed tanks best friend, the second tank 🤦

[@Catbeans99]

I hated having a second d tank sandbagging me because they decided being a one truck is more important than team comp synergy. Spoiler, it wasn’t, comp synergy was oppressively strong and would win the game on its own. It was a miserable experience .

[@HoboDino]

I think people read into it too much and are just not liking the current 'meta' comps. I know I am 100% sick of Mauga, Orisa, and Hog. People have complained for seasons that these tanks have been owning and are overpowered and yet there's still an outcry that people say tanks are weak. I can agree that tank is in a bad position right now but it isn't a reason that calls out for 6v6

[@Catbeans99]

@@HoboDino Mauga specifically has gotten old to go up against. So much so that I just started going Doomfist, gaining charge off his guns, then leaping onto his supports and using all my cooldown so they can’t keep him alive. Even if I die my team melts him after. It’s spiteful, but it brings me joy.

[@HoboDino]

@@Catbeans99 Mauga is the death of me. I hate playing him and I hate going up against him. As a tank there's no real 'direct' counter to him due to the fact he can heal off doing damage (stupid, stupid idea to introduce this to a brawl tank...). Like you said, I just hope to take out the others around him and then he falls but that's hoping he doesn't decide to charge into me or the exposed backline

[@blaine4754]

@@Catbeans99 A one trick tank is even more detrimental now than ever due to counter swapping being more game deciding than ever. Yeah sometimes one tricks suck, but it’s a team game. If you can’t figure out a way to play around your one trick, then the better team is going to win. That’s just Overwatch dude. Deleting a tank may have removed your negative experience of having an inflexible second tank, but it just shifted the importance of synergy to other roles, and MANDATES it on your single tank. Mauga is useless without a kiriko. More on synergy, the tank synergies were never too strong. The only exceptions to this are multi-tank comps that were born out of broken AoE healing and sustain. Quad tank didn’t exist without Moira/lucio. GOATS didn’t exist without brig. Even double shield, while the tank synergy there was utterly oppressive, was only FURTHER enabled by bap/brig. Please go watch OWL double shield play. You’ll notice that nothing ever died until bap misplayed with his immortality. On sig/orisa, yes their synergy was oppressive I agree, but that’s not a tank issue. That’s a hero balance issue. Sig was an ow2 tank added to ow1, an overkitted do everything tank that excelled in mitigation, cc, and damage. Orisa was strong, but they buffed her even further undeservingly when they removed crit potential during fortify. Other than what I explained above, tank synergy was never a free win. If zarya misused her bubbles, the frontline could easily fall apart. If Winston placed his bubble too early and dva wasn’t there to DM him, dive easily fell apart. These synergistic comps took execution at every turn, team play, coordination, etc. they were never ever free wins, and this is especially true at low to mid level ranked tiers. I’ve seen staple rein/zarya comps get rolled by a ball/hog. I’ve seen quad dps embarrass a dive comp.

[@verbatim545]

'5v5 good' >plays zarya in footage lmfaoooo

[@HoboDino]

Got the W and PoTG. Seems fine to me 🤭

[@zweis]

You can't be real if you complain about a player playing a certain character. Since you're complaining about Zarya you're definitely a Dva player with 0 brains or a classic Reinhardt who doesn't realize you get more value when your shield is down than up. Every character has a weakness, git gud and learn it

[@ironman1458]

@@HoboDino All the good players uninstalled already, you're beating up on whales and battle pass addicts

[@danielmcgrath680]

6v6 is the better format. The easiest argument to make is for tanks. Theyre either way too powerful raid bosses or get blown up - neither of which is fun or healthy for the game. Different tanks also play into each other way too easily or harshly, ending up in a counterswap meta. Again, not fun or healthy. In 6v6, the off-tank helps cover the main's flaws, leading to synergys and all heroes being viable in some way with coordination and skill. In 5v5 the other tank presses 1 button and youre in an inherently disadvantagous setting. Again, not fun or healthy. In OW2 theres room for only 2 metas: "Solo Tank" - Where 1 tank is vastly superior to every other so you almost have to mirror it (Mauga meta, Orisa etc) And Rock Paper Scissors Neither of these are fun or healthy. Literally the only way to fix this is to balance the tanks in a way where they all have similar playstyles, and for newer release tanks to all play the same. Which is not Overwatch. Overwatch 1 had flaws, a LOT of flaws, but flaws that could be fixed with balance changes. Like AOE healing, removing shields from heroes like Orisa, CC abilities. In OW2 we've gone past that, were now in a place where the literal format is what is failing the game ALONG with the balancing. Balance changes CANNOT fix the issues ive presented. Balancing CANNOT change the fact that you can be put at a huge disadvantage simply by countering the tank. Not by changing your playstyle, or coordinating with your team, simply by pressing a button. The skill expression has been drastically reduced from the tank roll, that is a fact. Solo tank will NEVER feel good, which again, is not fun or healthy for the game.

[@Elizabeth68337]

Every video I watch the comment section is dominated by 6v6 advocates we know what we want and we are sick of 2 years of this broken format.

[@heartlessgaming8270]

I like how big streamers say 5v5 is better yet most of the community is demanding 6v6 g I wonder why

[@HoboDino]

In my opinion, the game has evolved too much to go back to 6v6. Tanks have been changed and identities of tanks have changed to 'fit' the 5v5 play style. Tanks just feel weak right now, they need to tweak the other roles or introduce a little bit more of a change to the passive to really make tanks feel right in 5v5

[@kingmoosh2004]

most of the community is not demanding 6v6 lol. it a vocal minority of chronic whiners who will complain about absolutely everything about the game whether or not we go back to 6v6.

[@HoboDino]

@@kingmoosh2004 I think most people who are calling for it think that the game will feel like release OW1 again and want to get that nostalgia boost back. But I mean there’s no way that it would be like that 😂

[@blaine4754]

@@HoboDinothe game has not changed too much to revert to 6v6, that’s just not true. They could just start with a 6v6 game mode that borrows from the open queue balancing, play test that for a while, make tweaks, then release it and go from there. 6 years of Overwatch wasn’t too deep to delete a tank, two years of Overwatch 2 sure isn’t too late to add it back.

[@heiko2255]

@@kingmoosh2004 How do you determin its a vocal minority? I see it below every Video about balance I see it on polls, 6v6 often has about 50% or even more We can even take Jake (whose Community is mostly pro 5v5) and his Poll had 33k Votes 48% 6v6 50% 5v5 and that was like 4 Months ago, when people were even less on the side of 6v6 I dont think its a minority, i think lots of people want old OW back but we can only see if we actually bring it back and try to balance it

[@neothei]

in your conclusion you mentioned how its really hard for them to balance the game for 6v6 when the game was made for 5v5. What about overwatch 1? They had to make all of the significant changes to the game (and in the process introduced more powercreep) and tanking in 5v5 STILL isnt fun. Introducing a 2nd tank doesnt simply mean there is more hp to shoot at or more shields to shoot at, it introduces the offtank maintank dynamic that was once previously there. The options and agency that you have as a tank while having a duo is significantly higher than playing as a solo tank. The problem of having the boring stalemates and "counterwatch" is caused by the format 5v5. I think counterswapping is interesting and good for the game BUT only to a certain degree. When you have one tank and give them insane powercreep that role matters much more than the other 4 players on your team, which causes this cycle of swapping on and off heroes to counter the other hypertitan on the enemy team.

[@zimzimzalabim]

people who hate Ball don't understand why he used to be fun. We could have one tank defending and another one messing up the enemy backline. Doom as tank doesn't work for this reason either.

[@zweis]

Or the other 3 players can defend the back line? If your Doomfist or Ball is going into 4 people every time and generating value with their combos and your team can't take advantage of it you don't need another tank, you need straight mental help.

[@HoboDino]

I think Ball just doesn't really fit into the current state that the game is in. He works in a few situations, but there's going to be some characters that fall into that category just from a team comp perspective. These tanks need a change in some way, doom was pretty OP in the early seasons of OW2, I just think the newly introduced tanks counter these guys too much and there's been no tweaks to stop this

[@Hunter-lh5oc]

The game was originally made for 6v6

[@idiomasentusiasticos7954]

Why don’t they do a week of 6v6 then do a community vote of which we prefer? And whichever is the majority stays. Seems like the most logical way to deal with this situation.

[@HoboDino]

They have done an experimental group before. I don’t know why they stopped doing it in OW2. That brought some of the best changes to characters. I’d like to play 6v6 on an experimental patch just so I can get a sense of what it would really be like without the hypotheticals

[@TheFarslayer]

Listen my friend you seem like a nice guy so I’ll reciprocate said kindness. Counter swaping and cc are the two biggest issues with tank, both are UNSOLVABLE in 5v5 without jeopardizing the other two roles. Tanks feel nigh unkillable when ur on dps and support healing HAD to get buffs cuz there is only one tank. 5v5 forces all of that. I ask you this, is that better? If so how will you balance these issues outta the game. 6v6 promotes more play making by having lower health pools across the board is it a god fix? No but at a foundational stand point 6v6 is simply better

[@ieToastie]

Do not try to claim that tank heroes in Overwatch have “evolved” too much to work in 6v6. Minor ability tweaks and stat changes is literally all it takes, 7HSKW did it perfectly well.

[@rawakamaran3618]

Blizzard has a history of having a huge ego and never admitting they where wrong about anything such as the power creep and counter picking issues. They will always double down on something rather going back and OW's history is proof of that.I genuinely think blizzard is a terrible company and it will never change

[@HoboDino]

The issue is that there’s an identity to how they want OW2 to work. They ‘try’ to listen to the community but as you can probably see from the comments and the community itself, that it is hard to keep everyone happy. Blizzard for sure aren’t the best company and I wish they were better that’s for sure 😅

[@fredmertz8191]

I think you forget that tanks didn't have as much innate survivability in OW1 except in exceptional circumstances (sigma) and when they weren't just overstatted it was external factors (bap) that made them have so much more survivability. It genuinely was a balance issue. Overwatch also wasn't designed for 5v5, the heroes were not designed to be generalists in the beginning, so you saying at the end of the video, "this game was designed for 5v5" is just wrong at the start. Unless you are talking about 5v5 the format being designed for 5v5, it still wasn't because you still had specialists.

[@darryltorres7302]

I just wish they'll give us at least a separate 6v6 game mode already. I'm so done with these delusional 5v5ers and their braindead arguments. You want to play counterwatch fine, just give us our game mode and we'll be on our way. Calling 6v6 the worst argument in overwatch is ridiculous, at least in 6v6 I get to choose which ever character I want to play. 5v5 is bogus.

[@alsocool1]

I don't think 6v6 would suddenly fix the game, but having a second tank seriously aleviates the pressure and rigidity of the role. Whether they ever decide to go back to 6v6 or stick to 5v5, tanks are in dire need of a rebalance.

[@HoboDino]

For sure, I don't think tanks are in a good state either way. I just don't think 6v6 would be the way forward to be able to balance them as quick as the community would like

[@tamooz6649]

I want the game I paid for

[@HoboDino]

This was a very quick mind yap. Once the notes come out on the directors notes. I hope to go a bit more in-depth with my ideas. Hope you enjoy :)

[@user-rx7uw8bf1z]

I would definitely enjoy if the entire game isn't teetering on one Tank in most games

[@HoboDino]

Most games I’m in usually are lost due to 1 player getting singled out or not having a good game. And usually when I’m on tank it isn’t me 😉😂

[@user-rx7uw8bf1z]

@@HoboDino I feel like every time I que as something that isnt Tank, the tank I end up getting on my team is not great and I end up tanking anyway next round

[@HoboDino]

@@user-rx7uw8bf1z I feel the same way currently, I either have to play tank or play with someone who I can comm with on tank. It's rough without a tank you know how they play

[@soulgin3682]

why and how are ppl still playing this game... OW is shadow of a shadow of it former self...

[@HoboDino]

For me, I love the concept of the game. Even though it is the same 20-30 maps, every game is different because people play so different. I don't get the same feeling as I had in OW1 but that was when I was fresh to the game. But I still do enjoy OW2

[@heartlessgaming8270]

@@soulgin3682 wait until marvel rivals come out people are only still playing OW2 because there is zero competition

[@lukeaustin4465]

The devs will eventually scrap role queue and implement a pick/ban draft system for comp when they reach a certain number of heroes in the roster. I'm going to assume when we reach 46 or 50 heroes is when they'll implement this.

[@arathoras12]

Respectfully, saying that the game can't go back to 6v6 because it's now balanced to 5v5 is absolutely not true. The game was made for 6v6 so it can always, always go back to it's original format. Reason is there's only one fundamental change in this current game format and it's the 6v6 -> 5v5. Everything else is the matter of balance and they know what works at 6v6 already. Also imo it has been proven over and over how much harder 5v5 is to balance than 6v6. Tanks are still at the same time the WEAKEST and the STRONGEST role in the game by far. And they are going to most likely globally buff tanks even more if we gonna believe this new dev blog update. Apparently these super giga tanks are still not super giga tanky enough without the second tank which was the format they were designed for. What a surprise. The famous words of certain Blizzards lead developer "You think you do, but you don't." This argument is only to try and invalidate the whole 6v6 argument by default, without ever engaging it properly. Well, if half (around) the player base wants that nostalgia back and is arguing for that 6v6 format, maybe it is telling something about your games current state. Also "counterwatch" is just enhanced to heavens without second tank which everyone knows and it effects every rank. There's nothing more to add on that.

[@HoboDino]

See that's the issue. We have half of the community calling for 6v6 again and the other half calling for 5v5. The skill level for tank, especially now with only 1 tank, is massively spread. You see different opinions from bronze all the way up to top 500. It is closeminded to say the OW1 didn't have it's balance issues either. Of course, the game got no support for 4 years but there were calls nonstop for X tank to get nerfs and Y tank to get buffs. We just end up in the same cycle with it either being 6v6 or 5v5 that every rank is going to view roles differently. The devs, no matter how unpopular, should follow the crowd of the elite level players. They know the game the most and know how the game is 'meant to be played'. And that crowd is called for nerfs to tanks and there's arguably less talk from them for a push back to 6v6. Saying that though, they shouldn't just cancel out the lower level ELO players. Even though that crowd is a bigger crowd, they objectively have a 'worse' opinion on how the game should be played. It's tough to say 100% yes to either 5v5 or 6v6. I can see both sides, I just think the game is very spread out with their opinions right now that it proves hard for the devs to take in that information and put it in the right direction for everyone. I like the points you made, by the way, and I love chatting about this kinda stuff :)

[@thedizzlor]

It absolutely is true. Multiple characters were remade, multiple rebalanced, and multiple added, then we've had a year of balancing to 5v5, we've had a full health pool update. Passives updated. And above that, they chose to make it 5v5. You dont just change the fundamentals of a video game mid way through just cause one part of it isnt as fun as other parts. Saying "they already know what works at 6v6" is comical. That was an entirely different game, and for extremely long periods, they DID NOT know what works. Goats was a nightmare. Double shield was a nightmare. Tank was boring as hell at times Imagine them trying to balance 2 tanks now with Mauga, Orisa, Roadhog, or going back to Sigma Rein double shield. The game would be miserable for DPS. Blizzards statement is mostly true, humans love nostalgia. First memories are of fun and how great things used to be. Nobody wants to remember the awful metas, the hour long DPS queues because of how boring tank was, the shields And if you think half the playerbase are wanting 6v6 then you are absolutely nuts. 99.99999% of the playerbase has never shared their opinion on the subject online. A good amount of that never played OW1. And logically the vast majority of active players will be happy with 5v5, if they werent they wouldnt be playing still. The angry people go online to rant, the happy people just play the game and dont feel the need to go say how good only having 10 characters on screen is...

[@Taygon45]

​@@thedizzlor Here's an easy solution . . . Two tank roles. One for soak, and one for shield. No more double shield. Boom. Also yeah, balancing 6v6 was hard. But I think 6v6 was Overwatch. 5v5 should have never been implemented. There were so many different ways they could have killed Goats without dragging a tank into a back ally. Jeff talked about how nothing but 6v6 clicked. And the moment he left 5v5 was made.

[@thenotsogreatape933]

@@thedizzlor Its almost like they had to buff the tanks to be so wildly overpowered just to do half the things they could in overwatch 1. Your reason to not go back to 6v6 is because they would have to rebalance everything, as if they did not rebalance the entire game from the transistion to 5v5. If the dev team was actually competant there wouldve been no need for 5v5, if the dev team was competant they wouldve realized that instead of reworking, tweaking, and buffing tanks ad infinitum they could cut their losses and go back to the format that the game and most of its heroes were designed for. The devs only reason for letting 5v5 linger for so long is because they know without it this game is a COMPLETE failure in everything it attempted to do.

[@arathoras12]

@@thedizzlor I can see you are arguing with bad faith, but I will still ansver. You don't need to know anything about OW1 and still dislike the current state of the game. You don't need to have personal experience to say "at this point a change to 6v6 could make this game better". I don't know have you seen any, but people who never played 6v6 have shared their opinions in YT and if there's few "only OW2" players who want that change, theres also more. And obviously I don't know is it half who want this change, but neither do you. It's just a guess based on people who talk. "One dot means nothing, but three dots creates a line." That means all we can do is make an educated guess based on this pattern from the sample size we have. Also you took the point about change from 5v5 to 6v6 way too literally. While I did say it would be quite easy and Blizzard knows what works (they do), I did not mean the change would be just a finger snap and that's it. And I'm sure you know I did not mean that. Also what comes to those tanks balance for 6v6, it's been already well proven they can work in 6v6 at fan made custom 6v6 game moded. And that's not even well optimized. Depending if you want to hear these arguments or not this should be quite a substantial prove that new heroes work in 6v6 format. And lastly, nobody wants double shield back and there's almost zero change it would come back when the most integral hero of double shield, Orisa, doesn't have her shield anymore. I'm not gonna even address GOATS because everyone knows is it possible to play GOATS with current 2-2-2.

[@Ccscenario]

This man obviously made this video for the engagement 😂

[@HoboDino]

It worked 😮‍💨. Sparking up conversations is fun and I like to talk about OW

[@chuyyou]

Have you ever played Overwatch 1? Because there is no fucking way you can think that 5 on 5 is better than 6 on 6. Everyone knows that. you just want to be different.

[@HoboDino]

@@chuyyou I loved shooting at double shields so much. I loved GOATs and the never ending fights. I loved overpowered Brig. I loved scatter arrow on Hanzo. I loved 2CP maps and getting snowballed. There were many many things wrong with Overwatch 1

[@darryltorres7302]

@@HoboDino You're blaming the entire format over BALANCE issues. That's a such braindead take, why do you guys are always bringing those two metas up? It's really telling that you're making fun of getting snowballed when this format enforces snowballed even more, hello, counterwatch ring any bells?

[@dererik9070]

Double shield is shit look at 6v6 workshop codes you can easily kill double shields with balnce not a format which increases time to kill so much

[@grungemuffin1990]

They need to have 4 rolls tank off tank dps and heals. This can make the annoying double sheild combos go away

[@HoboDino]

Overwatch 1 had these roles, just with an added 'off-role' healer role. I think viewing the characters in the game in terms of composition is better to view the game than the off/main roles

[@thakidgaming6435]

All I’m saying is if 6v6 comes back then hopefully support characters get a certain boost to help out on healing. LW is in purgatory on being good and semi when he’s one of the best defense supports

[@HoboDino]

I think they either tweak support or tank if it's 6v6. You over tune the tanks by adding another tank and then the power creep goes up even more. It's going to be a never ending fight and people won't be happy either way

[@adumate6543]

Everyone in the comment section has dementia.

[@reesyloko5741]

I believe both formats can work its just if you want 5v5 to feel good for all roles you'd have to rebuild characters maps and systems in the game from the ground up because its alot of shit in the game that has to go we cannot keep every character identity and have a fun game some shit needs to go IMMEDIATELY in 5v5 that occasional reworks won't fix for years so i believe that 6v6 is easier to fix because we have a history of what did and didn't work in the format and years of PUBLICLY VIEWABLE PRO PLAY IN THE FORMAT along with alot of KZbin channels who discussed every single patch since the beginning of the game we have the power of hindsight along with other games who've taken inspiration from systems in overwatc

[@delighted2849]

I'm glad HoboDino has more insight into the game and the 'positive' effects than every single esports player who was against this. 6v6 was fun, the only reason they changed it was due to a meta strat which arguably could've been curbed with some brain power

[@HoboDino]

I don't think they changed it due to a certain meta. There were many metas that were viable toward the end of OW1. I think it got changed to 5v5 because the player count for tank was horrible so they cut the role to accommodate for that. I'll happily be wrong but if I remember correctly that might have been why

[@apttic9733]

To end the debate there should be both 5v5 and 6v6 just like how we have open queue comp we can have it as an option what honestly made 6v6 was horrible because of double shields and the crazy amount of cc everyone making dog shit takes on 6v6 when we havent tried it with the current heros and how they work give it a chance

[@HoboDino]

They can try it out, for sure. I don't hate being able to play 6v6 as another game mode but I would not want 6v6 over 5v5. I think we have these 'dog shit takes' because there's been no communication from a formal standpoint so far from Blizzard on how these changes have really affected the game (on a numbers level)

[@its_lucky252]

dont wannt watch the vid, but im gonna leave a quick comment. assuming you dont want 6v6, you like 5v5 more. so you think the game is in a better position than peak ow1, since 5v5 cant really get much better from this point. the thing is the game just isnt very fun rn for anyone

[@HoboDino]

Peak OW1 had it's fair share of unbalanced characters. I mean look at the release of Brig... I just think that the better fix now would be to fix the game in the 5v5 condition that it is rather than put a plaster over a big ass cut with a change back to 6v6

[@abod_bios2]

we want 12v12 like tf2

[@gats9593]

Talk faster. Not trying to be a dick, just a tip for future videos. The droning, monotone slow talk is offputting. Also 6v6 is better

[@TheehT-iu4bi]

Nah, bro started in ow2 thinking his opinion holds weight. L take, L channel, non-points were made. Give it up.

[@HoboDino]

May I ask what your opinion is?

[@TheehT-iu4bi]

@@HoboDino Contrary to yours, and it holds weight because of actual experience, unlike yours. No more engagement from me.

[@HoboDino]

@@TheehT-iu4bi That's fine. At least I tried to listen to your opinion openly. Have a nice day :)

[@Lenniedied]

Because of actual experience 🤓☝️

[@TheehT-iu4bi]

@@Lenniedied yes, absolutely, seethe about it and be wrong your whole life, seems like you often listen to those with none, can't say it makes you bright.

[@assassith]

The argument is so far past these points that have been thoroughly disproven, it's not even worth going through the whole video. If you're going to make a video on the topic, at least do more than just a surface level analysis of what the talking points are for both sides. Most of the tanks problems are exaggerated deeply by the 5v5 format and would be greatly alleviated simply by having another tank.

[@HoboDino]

I do get what you are saying. The video is very surface level and was straight from the dome. I plan on getting a better, in-depth, video out when the directors notes come out. I do have a lot more to say and I will happily voice those opinions in a future video though :)

[@HoboDino]

If you would like a quick round up now. My honest opinions are: Tank is, in my opinion, the highest skill gap between low and high level players. The tank passive they added had no effect on the lower level games because those players aren't consistently hitting headshots. Whereas, the DPS passive that was introduced helps the lower levels more. This has created a rift between the 3 roles at the lower ranked games as tanks inadvertently feel 'weaker'. In the higher ELO lobbies, those matches seem to have been pretty heavy on the tanks. 3 main tanks are running the show there and they are calling for tanks to be tuned down. I think overall, with the fact there's a massive rift between skill levels it is hard to balance a role. When overall, the experience for each ELO is vastly different. I am sure we will see the numbers back this when they bring them out in the directors notes though