6x17 Roll Film Holder for 4x5 View Cameras

This video is about panoramas and the DaYi 6x17 Roll Film Holder for 4x5 View Cameras.
Video Outline:
Brief History 0:31
The Human Eye 2:06
My Inspiration 3:02
Film Holder Description 4:00
How the Holder Works 4:56
Dark Slide Tips 5:50
Blackouts 6:46
Lenses I Use 9:34
Loading Film 13:00
Advancing Shots 15:49
Unloading Film 16:13
Sample Roll 17:21
Final Thoughts 17:31
Credits 17:50
Music by: www.audionautix.com
Portfolio of Images taken with the 6x17 Holder: • Fujifilm Velvia: 6x17 ...
Please like, share, comment and subscribe!
www.tonysantophotography.com

[@Raevenswood]

Thanks Tony! I was turned on to 6x17 via 4x5 view camera for the same reason you stated, price of a dedicated 6x17 is outrageous! When I discovered you can use a 6x17 back on a 4x5 it just seemed like a no brainer. The Dayi is what seems to be most available but I wondered about quality ... now I wonder no more. Great stuff ... I was gonna go 6x7 but now that I have learned you can get film roll backs for multiple formats I'm going with 4x5. Cheers!

[@tonysantophotography]

Raevenswood Thank you for watching! I appreciate your support! Tony

[@davidgibbon8927]

Hi Tony, Great videos - many thanks for your output - greatly appreciated! I saw an idea some years ago for a really cheap way of getting panoramic images with a standard 4x5 double dark slide film holder. Make/convert a slide by cutting lengthwise in the about 1/16th" off the middle and removing the smaller half. Then, place it behind the normal, full size dark slide to cover either the top or bottom half. Compose the top or bottom half image accordingly and take the photo by removing BOTH slides. Replace the 'half' slide to obscure the other (top or bottom) half of the image and there you have two panoramic images on one 4x5 negative. Real cheapskate stuff but it works

[@tonysantophotography]

David, That's a great alternative! Thank you for sharing that with us! I appreciate you taking the time to to leave feedback. Tony

[@wichersham]

So very helpful. Thank you for the tutrial.

[@tonysantophotography]

Thanks! I appreciate your support! Tony

[@tarteauxframboises]

Unlike most large format male photographers, you are a delight! I love the education part of your videos so much!

[@tonysantophotography]

Thank you for the kind words! I appreciate you taking the time to watch! Tony

[@Tollef.]

You are an excellent teacher. Thank you.

[@tonysantophotography]

Thanks so much Tollef! I am glad that I could help! Tony

[@anzaeria]

I always assumed you needed at least a 5 x 7 view camera or 8 x 10 model to use a 6 x 17cm roll film back successfully. That's great that you can use a 4 x 5 camera for this. Now we have so many options. Just imagine attaching a 6 x 17 back to a Speed Graphic press camera.

[@tonysantophotography]

That would be awesome! Thanks for watching! Tony

[@giorgiogranatiero]

I'm still figuring out how this is technically possible. In any case, thanks for the video @@tonysantophotography !

[@giorgiogranatiero]

I understood this thanks to @ErwinSerle 's comment below

[@bday56]

Meant to add - excellent videos especially the sister one showing images. I had not even thought of using my 6x12 in portrait mode, but the it only arrived two days ago. 😀

[@tonysantophotography]

+bday56 Thanks for the support! Enjoy your 6x12! Tony

[@mateuszkrzastek]

Great video, thanks so much for this! This is exactly what I was looking for, I wasn't aware that there are 6x17 holders for 4x5 cameras

[@tonysantophotography]

Mateusz Krząstek You are very welcome! I appreciate you watching! Tony

[@gregsvoice5628]

Very useful and detailed video!

[@tonysantophotography]

Thanks Greg!

[@kevin-parratt-artist]

Very nice video, Tony. Thank you. 👌 Kevin Parratt

[@tonysantophotography]

Thanks Kevin!

[@cinnamon--girl]

Thank you for sharing this information.

[@tonysantophotography]

My pleasure! Thanks for watching! Tony

[@pablovi77]

You can use a Center ND filter with the 90mm lens to have the entire frame properly exposed. And thanks for the review, I was researching for a 6x17 camera, and I think too that the most cost effective way is to sue a 4x5 camera with taht adapter.

[@tonysantophotography]

+Pablo Villegas Yes, that's correct. There are center ND filters available but they can be quite expensive. Thank you for watching! Tony

[@steveh1273]

Hello Tony, just found and subscribed to your channel. The only issue I have using the pano format is that I have a 4x5 enlarger and would have to resort to scanning the pano negative similar as Nick Carver does and then getting it printed at a reputable print shop. Which is probably best because you would want the prints rather large and that is expensive. Sharing panos on social media isn't a good option either. Thanks, looking forward to seeing more on the channel.

[@tonysantophotography]

Hi Steve. Great points! I don’t shoot as many panos anymore but it is a fun format. Thanks for subscribing! More content coming soon! 😎

[@PAULFROCCHI]

Thanks Tony

[@tonysantophotography]

Anytime! Happy shooting!

[@chaprick0106]

EXCELLENT video!!!! You are really good at explaining things.

[@tonysantophotography]

Rick Chapman Thank you Rick! That is very nice of you to say. I am glad to help out. I appreciate your support. Tony

[@chaprick0106]

I suppose I have a question. Do you prefer using film for panos simply because it is old school and more fun or do you truly find it to have better quality that just taking digital pictures and stitching them together? Ultimately the film gets scanned into digital these days and the cost is quite high. Just wondered about your thoughts on this. I love shooting film for the nostalgia of it but wonder if it is worth it from a quality standpoint given advances in digital quality. Thanks!!

[@tonysantophotography]

Rick, Great question. I enjoy the process and the look of Velvia 50. I also enjoy capturing the scene in just one shot. So it is not an issue of quality because I think you can get high quality panos out of many digital images stitched together. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@TomFindahl]

My tiny office is filled with photo gear, when you think you have enough, something else is catching you eye...Great video! I just had to have the back, adding another feature to my Linhof.

[@tonysantophotography]

That's the truth Tom! Thank you for taking the time to watch! I hope you enjoy your new purchase! Tony

[@mamiyapress]

Thank you, I enjoyed that very much.

[@tonysantophotography]

+mamiyapress Your welcome! Thanks for the support!

[@patryk2700]

great video thanks! It sounds like a 180mm will do the trick for all range of formats on this back

[@tonysantophotography]

That lens would work great with this setup! Thanks for watching! Tony

[@bday56]

Meant to add - excellent videos especially the sister one showing images. I had not even thought of using my 6x12 in portrait mode, but the it only arrived two days ago.

[@SD_Alias]

very interesting equipment. For WA lenses: it is important if buy them used on ebay, then buy them together WITH a centerfilter. Buying that filter seperately it is most time very expensive

[@tonysantophotography]

Yes. I wish I had a center filter for 90mm. Thanks for dropping by! Tony

[@sparqqling]

I'm an XPAN guy, thinking about 617!

[@tonysantophotography]

If you like panos, then you'll love 6x17. Although, it is not as convenient as the XPan to shoot; its a slower process. Thanks for dropping by the channel!

[@thomaspopple2291]

Hello. Thanks for all the great content. I have a question regarding the 6x17. Do you need to use a center nd filter?

[@tonysanto4804]

Thanks Thomas. Typically, a 90mm, 75mm, or wider angle lens will require the center ND filter. Some Nikon SW lenses do not require them. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@ANDYSOUND1]

Hello Tony and thanks for such an informative video! I want to ask you about your friend’s (Dr. Craig Anthony) Holga-120Pan modified camera: can you tell or find out what kind of lens he used to modify his 6x12 plastic wonder? It seems to use Wollensack optics + Rapax shutter, but I was wondering about the specific focal length and aperture, and more importantly, if he was able to devise a focusing helicoid or it’s just a fixed focal length with everything in focus from “x” distance to infinity…? Thanks in advance for any insight you might have or pointers for me to keep looking, so I can try and modify my own Holga 6x12.

[@richardt1792]

I am using a 50mm on a Mamiya press 23 or Universal with a 6x9 back. It yields an image like a 21mm on a 35mm camera. I have looked for the 6x17 back but havent found a deal yet

[@tonysantophotography]

Thanks for sharing Richard! Good luck in finding a good deal! Tony

[@unityoc]

Great vid, although the audio near the start is a little rough. I'm more interested in 6x17 on a 5x7" field camera - does anyone have any experience with that?

[@yermanoh]

re the vignetting of the 90mm lens im sure there are circular graduated filters made for that problem, i dont know if they are lens specific or not

[@tonysantophotography]

Yes, there are center ND filters but they are very costly. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@janbrand2075]

Just found your site, I am thinking about trying 6 x17 roll film, in your video you show your friend with a Holga reworked with a standard style lens, would there be chance to talk about this in more detail.

[@frankward1614]

Tony, after seeing your 6x17 videos I was compelled to buy a Dayi back. I also bought 2 6x9 Wista backs without the plates. I now have 3 6x9 Wista 6x9 backs and only one 4x5 mounting plate. How do go about changing the backs on the plate out in the field? I would love to get out in the dessert this winter and shoot panoramic 6x17 Velvia. When is the ideal time to go? And where do you recomend?

[@tonysantophotography]

Frank, I'm not quite sure I understand the issue with your backs. If you email me some pictures, I think I can give you a better idea ([e-mail]). I would avoid coming to the desert during the summer months because of the heat. October through the end of April is ideal. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@fbraakman]

Very good video. Can you tell me if you can switch from 6x17 to 6x12 on the same roll? And what is the purpose of closing the window over the shot count?

[@tonysantophotography]

It is not possible switch from 6x17 to 6x12; once you select your size, you're committed to that size for the whole roll. The circular window is to show you the frame number and closing the window is a precaution against light leaks. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@erichstocker8358]

Could use a center ND filter with the 90mm

[@tonysantophotography]

Erich, Yes, that's exactly what you need for the 90mm lens. The only issues are that those filters are hard to come by and very expensive. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@arttafil6792]

Seems like the best of the best would be a Linhof Technica 4x5 with electric guitar! How about using the 45/47mm Super Angulon?

[@tonysantophotography]

Art, I don't that lens but it would be interesting to experiment with. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@davignon3058]

Hello Tony, a great video with valuable tips. Many Thanks. Can you please answer which manufacturer and type Your 115mm lens has? Thank you and best regards Siggi

[@tonysantophotography]

Sigismund, All my lenses are either Schneider or Nikon. I have one 360mm lens that is a Rodenstock. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@laszlohalasz1078]

Very useful video Tony! I am planning to take 6x14 images with the Fujinon CM-W 105mm f5.6 lens on an Intrepid 4x5 camera but I wandering why they recommend 135-180mm lenses on their website ( Both 6x17 and 6x14 are wider aspect ratios compared 4x5 but film backs such as the DAYI are offset to allow for the image to be projected though the 4x5 opening. This does mean only a limited range of lenses will be compatible though, between 135mm-180mm lenses work best and won’t vignette or crop the exposure. ). What do you think, will the Fujinon 105mm work with this setup? Will I have enogh movement if I shoot 6x14 if the lens has 174mm image circle at f22?

[@tonysantophotography]

Laszlo, it may have to do with the ability of the camera to compress sufficiently to focus properly. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@laszlohalasz1078]

@@tonysantophotography Thanks for your quick response!

[@rolandofuret2658]

Hi Tony! Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with us. I have a question in my mind about the film back being 17cm wide on the film plane, but the rear standard is about 13cm wide, as well as the bellows are by the rear standard. So, my question is; do you get 17cm wide negatives without vignette? Thank you for yor answer. Cheers Rolando.

[@tonysantophotography]

Great question Rolando. Yes, you can get 17cm wide panos. Thanks for watching! 😎

[@rolandofuret2658]

@@tonysantophotography ❤️

[@rolandofuret2658]

Thank you Tony 😁@@tonysantophotography

[@rolandofuret2658]

I bought one set last week, but it is New Year celebrations in China, it will take an extra time to arrive. My seller says It has been redesigned and will be able to use from 90 mm up to 210 mm. The 210 mm lenses will crop the image to 14 cm wide. But as you said the 90 mm gets a light fall of by the sides, so I'll see if the redesigned set gives a better result. Cheers@@tonysantophotography

[@tonysantophotography]

How exciting Rolando! I’m sure you’ll enjoy using it. There is something wonderful about the pano. Have fun !

[@itstimetogo49]

Hi Tony...many thanks for the video. I just purchased a DaYI (Shen Hao) 6x12 roll fiilm back to use on my Linhof. My back has no frame count numbers as yours does printed on the metal, but by looking at your back, I'm assuming I would use frame numbers 1,3,5,7,9,11. Sound correct? Also, have you had any light leaks on your back? Many thanks!

[@tonysantophotography]

Wayne, That is correct! I haven't had any light leaks yet; and that's with the light seal missing. The mechanical light trap seems to be sufficient. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@Yuf_73]

How can a 17cm long exposure be taken on a 5inches (~12cm) camera? is this 617 focusing plane far more behind the 4x5 focusing plane?

[@tonysantophotography]

Yu, the 6x17 back sits back farther than where the 4x5 holder would be. Also, please remember that the image circle is typically larger than the size of the film so you'll get plenty of coverage. Hope this helps, Tony

[@dont-want-no-wrench]

no problems with film flatness with such a long unsupported stretch?

[@tonysantophotography]

I’ve never had any noticeable issues.

[@hagchr]

Thanks for great video, I will get the same setup. For bellows extension you just measure to the "new" film plane? Seems really difficult to find Center ND - can you get good result if you try to adjust in LR/PS (using vignetting)?

[@tonysantophotography]

Correct on the bellows extension. I’ve not had good success in post removing the vignetting. I have seen new Center ND filters for a reasonable price but I don’t recall where. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@ptrlstn51]

Can use use this on an Intrepid?

[@tonysantophotography]

I believe so. If the camera has a graflok back you can attach roll film holders to it. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@JasonRJones]

Hi Tony thanks for the tip on large format photography forum for this video. I actually purchased the Shen Hao version new for 750 two years ago and I have been pleased with it in comparison to purchasing a linhof or fuji. I am curious on the difference in build quality between the two manufactures. I am also curious as to how you focus your 90mm on the back. I have purchased several recessed boards and had shaky results. I typically use my 120mm or my 210 but as you mentioned you get cropping with the 210mm.

[@tonysantophotography]

+Jason R Jones Ahhh yes! Some cameras like the one I use and the one you have are limited by how close the standards can be brought together. I use about a 5mm recessed lens board, however the real trick is in the front standard. I use the base tilt on the front standard to recline it back towards the rear standard and that gives me a little focusing room between the standards. It seems to work pretty well. I hope that helps. If you are ever in Las Vegas, it would be fun to collaborate on a video that compared both models. Sincerely, Tony

[@JasonRJones]

I have purchased both a 15mm and a 20mm recessed board and have been able to get the 90 to focus but with absolutely no movements available. I have an Ebony sv45i. I'm sure with one of the new finesse or wide models I could get the plane close enough without a 20mm recess. My biggest issue is due to the linhof lens boards. All of there boards are a circular recessed design not a larger square shape. So linhof designed a adapted cable release system for a recessed lens. It's a bad design and is very difficult to put together. After breaking two I ended up purchasing a gepe pro release for wide angle lenses and that worked great for a week then it broke. So I have just manly been using my 120mm.

[@SekHuatPeh]

Just wonder with 4x5" film, the size is 102mm x 127mm, won't the 617 back being cropped at 127mm? Please advise as I also interested to get into 4x5 camera and 617 film back. Thanks.

[@tonysantophotography]

Sek, The pano back uses 120 roll film not a 4x5 piece of film; It is 6x17 at max width. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@seaneleven3244]

@@tonysantophotography - *Further to the above ...The rear `opening of [my] the 4x5 camera - the max size of the film plane at focus [ at least when using a 45 film holder] is 100x120 ? I'm wondering given that physical aperture, where the extra 5cm comes from!!! . Help

[@seaneleven3244]

Is it because the 617 film plane is `set back` and not flush - that extra distance to allow the image circle to exit the camera, and hit the holder...?

[@tonysantophotography]

@@seaneleven3244 Correct.

[@mikenelson8694]

THANK YOU for this video. It has answers many questions...What about film flatness with the 6x17 holder. Is there anything I need to be aware of?

[@tonysantophotography]

+Mike Nelson Mike, I really appreciate your support! I have never had an issue with film flatness. The winder has a decent amount of resistance that when you wind the film it pulls it taut. Hope this helps. Tony

[@bday56]

I've seen a suggestion on the internet that Da Yi and Shen Hao are the same company.

[@tonysantophotography]

+bday56 That's interesting but I wouldn't be able to say for sure. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@milenborisov]

Hi, very nice video! I want to know more about using long lenses with this back. How much will be the image cropped if I use a 300 mm. lens? Have you tried?

[@tonysantophotography]

Milen, Thanks for the kind words! I have tried the 300mm lens on this back but it significantly crops the image to the point where it will waste a large area of the film. So, the longest lens I use is the 210mm. I hope this helps. Tony

[@ArtimusPyleFilms]

@@tonysantophotography Hi Tony, Great video, thanks. What if the 300mm lens was designed for 8x10? i.e. the image circle is larger by design, would that cover the whole area? Sorry if this a silly question, I'm new to large format, with lots to learn!

[@tonysantophotography]

@@ArtimusPyleFilms Theoretically, yes. However, the camera rear standard limits the image cone so you'll still end up with clipping the image. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for watching!

[@Machster10]

Since 5 inches = 12.7 cm how can you use a 17cm? I use a 6x12 roll film back for 4x5 and a 6x17 for 5x7.

[@tonysantophotography]

The film is set back within the holder allowing the cone of light to expose the full 17 cm of film. I've never had any issues. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@rick_eeh]

thank you for this video ! i love panorama pictures ! i am new into large format, i just got my shen hao 4x5 , and i am considering to buy this 6x17 roll film holder, if i use 90mm lens with wide angle belows, do i still got vignete on the edge ? have you experienced that ? thanks !!

[@tonysantophotography]

Ricky, I appreciate your support and kind words. The vignetting comes from the fall-off of the lens and not the bellows so a bag-bellows or wide-angle bellows won't solve your problem. You need a "center-filter" that has a gradation that goes from dark to light from the middle to the edges. Please check out this guide from B and H: static.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section04LgFormatLenses.pdf. I hope this helps. Tony

[@carylee2002]

Hi Tony...Thanks for the video...it really got me thinking of getting a camera and similar setup as yours. Now what is the dimensions of the printed picture you have on the stand? I'm thinking of getting a Epson P600 and was wondering if I can get the same results from my scanned images on to paper. Can you also make a video on how you setup your composition, focus on your ground glass and explain the use of Reciprocity factors in your photo work. Thanks..Cary

[@tonysantophotography]

+Cary Lee So the printed and framed image in the video on the easel is 16" x 42" and it is a face mount acrylic. I don't print any of my own images at home so I can't speak to the quality you'll get from an Epson printer. I prefer to use Adorama.com for loose prints and places like West Coast Imaging and Bay Photo for my face mount acrylic and metal prints. I appreciate the video requests... I have some ideas for videos this year and some of them are similar to what you suggested. Please stay tuned! Thanks for watching and I appreciate your support! Sincerely, Tony

[@KaidFN]

I need to custumize a negative holder just to print the negative on my enlarger.

[@tonysantophotography]

Sounds like a fun project! Thanks for dropping by. Tony

[@mike.thomas]

I shouldn't watch these things. Makes me want more gear. I've got a lot of 120 in the freezer. Hmmmm...

[@tonysantophotography]

How funny! My wife says the same thing when I watch photography videos! I have to say that it has been a lot of fun shooting with this pano back. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@TanguyDynamic]

I think all of photographer GF or wife thought, last(many) time i ask her to watch video about photography and told her i want those things for improve my photography skill and her'll belike you have enough, *all the time i've to told her coz i wanna shoot great photo of you lol

[@aristoioannidis7490]

Hi Mike, You are 100% correct. On the other hand how can we refuse a Tony Santo opportunity.

[@arttafil6792]

Mike Thomas, That’s what’s known as having a terminal case of G.A.S. (Gear acquisition syndrome)!

[@arttafil6792]

Mike Thomas, I may have you beat. I have several rolls of 120, Kodachrome 64 in my freezer!

[@baylin95]

Amazing demo and very well described... Thank you!! One question - at 5:22, after you've mounted the GG onto the camera, I can see that there's cutoff of about 1 inch per side of the GG on either end. Is the 6x17 image to be made INSIDE the remaining GG area, or is there some of the image that goes to film that you can't see on the GG when you're viewing? Thanks!!

[@tonysantophotography]

I know that its appears as if the image will be cut off, however, the full 6x17cm image is transferred to the film plane with the 90 and 150 mm lenses. It's only when I use the 210mm lens that some of the image is cropped. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@alchemistalchemist6051]

For other who may wonder, this is mostly so the air can move when moving the bellows. You can also peer through the cutout to check if you can see light straight on the rear of the lens to check for coverage in the corners as they can be very dim

[@baylin95]

@@tonysantophotography Hey... that makes sense... thanks! However, I'm wondering if the image that you see on the GG (which looks like it will be physically blocked by the camera on each end) is an accurate impression as to what will then be recorded to film when you put the film back on. Is the GG area that you see the actual 6x17cm area you get on film, or is it just approx? Thanks for your help!!

[@tonysantophotography]

@@baylin95 It is accurate. You see all of the frame.

[@baylin95]

@@tonysantophotography Thanks very much for your reply!

[@allenwolfkill2781]

Ding Dong Ding Dong

[@montycraig5659]

Hi Tony, when composing on the ground glass, are there marks for composing 6x12, and 6x14 also?

[@tonysantophotography]

Monty, yes the ground glass has vertical lines to indicate the different format sizes. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@tplyons5459]

You need to replace your 210mm with a Fujinon W 210mm which covers 8x10

[@tonysantophotography]

TP, I appreciate your point but I have found that it is a limitation of the 6x17 back and not the image circle. Thanks for watching. Tony

[@farouk6564]

Hi Tony just discovered your channel great content! I shoot medium format and I would like to get into large format can you please recommend a good 4x5 field camera? something standard. Thanks!

[@tonysantophotography]

Great question. This is all related to how you want to shoot. If you do lots of backpacking then I would recommend a field box camera like I have. If you are into studio work then a monorail camera would be great and gives you the most flexibility. As far as brand goes, I dont pay much attention to that because I'm more interested in camera movements and price. There are lots of deals on eBay and the large format photography forum. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@CameraWithaGuy]

I wonder what 210mm lens you have, that barely covers the 617. 210mm is usually considered the normal lens for the 5X7 format so it seems like it should cover 4X5 / 617.

[@tonysantophotography]

I have the Schneider 210mm lens. It's designed to cover, I believe, up to 5x7. I've tried it with my 8x10 and there is significant vignetting. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@CameraWithaGuy]

Thanks for that.

[@borromine]

You don’t explain how a 168mm images work on a camera design for 125mm images. Are you using a 5x7 body?

[@tonysantophotography]

Joseph, I apologize but I'm not sure what your asking. Sorry, Tony

[@borromine]

@@tonysantophotography I was saying that a 4x5 camera on the long axis has about 125mm of length for the negative. The 617 roll film holder is designed for a 168mm long negative. So the camera back needs to be able to accommodate another 43mm of image /negative length. I’m not sure I understand how a 4x5 camera can do that. I gather it can be done, but how??

[@tonysantophotography]

@@borromine Joseph, The film back is deep and accommodates the needed additional coverage. The image circle has no issues clearing the 4x5 opening and projecting onto the film. Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate you taking the time to comment! Tony

[@soulstart89]

Hey Tony. Thanls for a informative video. I have a question. Is there also makes for the ground glass. For instance if you wanted to frame 6x12 without cropping in the darkroom or in Photoshop.

[@tonysantophotography]

Yes, the back does come with black outs that you insert into the film area to enable other image ratios. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@TwaynePereira]

Thank you for the informative video. I’ve heard that 5x7 field cameras would suit 6x17 better since 5 inches is approximately 12cm. Will I be able to expose the full 6x17 negative on a 4x5 field camera? or am I better off using the 6x12 setting? I’m considering getting into large format and panoramic photography so I’m curious about the mathematics behind it all! 😅

[@tonysantophotography]

Twayne, the 4x5 is fully capable of exposing the 6x17 format with no cropping of the image. I had my doubts as well but it works great! Thanks for watching! Tony

[@ErwinSerle]

@@tonysantophotography That is why the film/ground glass is a bit offset from the normal 4x5 position of the groundglass, it is at a wider place for the light rays so to speak

[@myronhensel]

Hey Tony what do you think of the Horseman Woodman 4x5 camera? Would love to know your thoughts.

[@tonysantophotography]

Myron, Unfortunately I've never used one so I am not the best person to ask. However, I will say that as long as the camera has all of the movements that you need, then any LF camera will do. I've been looking at weight recently and I would consider that as well. I do have a 6x7 120 roll film holder from Horesman and it is built very solid. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@myronhensel]

Thank you for your reply, it's highly appreciated! I really like your videos and look forward to seeing more of them. Don't be a stranger and checkout mine! I have one on Little Finland that you'd love.

[@iranpediusa]

hi Tony, I loved your video, but where can I print my panoramic pictures, could you please help me our and give me idea thanks

[@tonysantophotography]

+pedi niki I would recommend Bayphoto or West Coast Imaging for big prints. They have always done a nice job for me. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@pedi618]

+Tony Santo Photography Thank you so much tony for the information, could you tell me if I have film panoramic camera does Bayphot or west coast can print them too, I love to buy a Panoramic film camera Thanks again

[@tonysantophotography]

+pedi618 Bay Photo and West Coast Imaging only make prints. I would recommend checking out eBay or the Large Format Photography Forum for used equipment. I hope this helps. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@bublt4me]

Can I use "4x5" lenses for full 6x17 coverage?

[@tonysantophotography]

Martin. The short answer is yes. I have used the 90mm, 150mm and 210mm with success. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@Super.Quasar]

4x5” lenses do cover the 6x17 frame, but to make maximum use of movements isn’t it better to have lenses that cover 5x7” ??

[@fbraakman]

So the 4x5 camera also needs the Graflex/Graflock back that you made in a previous video?

[@tonysantophotography]

Correct. The back of the camera must have an International/Graflok back to accommodate the holder. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@furryurry]

what would be your preferred lens if you shot 6x12, 90 or 150? thx

[@tonysantophotography]

Furry, I usually don't shoot 6x12 but I would say it really depends on the subject matter. The 90 might be a good choice though since 6x12 has a narrower viewpoint. Hope this helps. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@Garubolas]

do uknowif the 6x17 filmback can be used with horseman FA?

[@tonysantophotography]

+Garubolas If you check this B&H guide out (www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section03aLgFormatField.pdf), your camera has an international back which theoretically should work with the DaYi 6x17 roll film holder. It also appears that Horseman made a 6x12cm roll film holder. It might be worth investigating a little further to be sure. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@terrywbreedlove]

Can we just use the normal 4x5 back and crop the image to the 6x17 format when printing ? Just need to use a wide angle lens and maybe a 6x17 mask for the ground glass so it is easier to frame the shot. Would that work ?

[@tonysantophotography]

Terry, There are so many ways to achieve the results you want with photography. There is certainly no reason why you couldn't use your 4x5 and crop. I like the 6x17 pano back because it gives me a larger negative to work from and frames the scene the way I like. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@vangstr]

Roll film is cheaper than sheet film supposedly. No need to waste sheet film if all you're doing is to crop it out.

[@Thomas-es5nn]

Tony, a 6 cm x 17 cm negative is NOT a "large negative" than a 4"x5" negative. Your method does NOT give you a wider, more panoramic view of the scene than if you would have got by just shooting in 4x5. Your method reminds me of the failed APS format in the late '90's. It has a fake "panoramic" function which does exactly the same thing as your method. An APS camera has 3 different masks to crop* the image in camera to 3 different aspect ratios: 16:9 (4x7), 3:2 (4x6), 3:1 (4x11). The so called panoramic 4x11 setting is just the same 4x7 image enlarged and cropped. Same angle of view. *(To be accurate, the APS system doesn't really crop the image physically, during exposure. The whole frame is exposed. The film has a transparent magnetic layer which stores, among other things, the user selected aspect ratio data. A printer that is made to print APS negatives would read that data and print out a 4x6, 4x7 or 4x11 print accordingly.)

[@Thomas-es5nn]

Terry, Breedlove, you are of course correct. I am sorry to say but Tony Santo simply doesn't understand the basics of photography. With the same lens, the angle of view is the same no matter what mask you use. The adapter is basically just a mask that block off the top and bottom. It won't give you a wider angle of view. You can get the same effect by cropping the image to the pano aspect ratio in printing just as you say above. Want a wider angle of view, use a wider lens or move farther back from the subject. Photography 101.

[@DinosawrsAreAwesome]

17cm is significantly wider than 5 inches (12.7cm) It's not a mask, it is a physically wider imaging surface, please don't spread misinformation.

[@misteragb7558]

I don't see how a 4x5 camera can make a 6x17 image... On the long end 5"= 12,7 cm

[@antoniosantophdrdnld126]

The standards are closer together because the 6x17 film back is deep; that enables the cone of light to clear the rear standard. The back works great! Tony

[@misteragb7558]

@@antoniosantophdrdnld126 oh thanks!

[@SamFerrara]

Hey Tony! Just got myself a Dayi 6x17 back for my 4x5. I have a 90mm Grandagon, and I can't seem to get it to focus on the ground glass. Do you have that problem? Do I need a recessed lens board? Also your 150mm that you use - which one is it that gives a large enough image circle? Thanks for any help you can give!

[@Kref3]

Do you use a resessed lens board like he is?

[@tonysantophotography]

I use about a 1cm lens board on my 90mm. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@tonysantophotography]

Sam, Glad to hear that you got a pano back. They are fun shoot. Sometimes with my 90mm I have had that problem because the two standards will touch and not allow for further focusing. My work around is to use the base tilt and tilt the front standard back a little; this increases the distance between the standards enough to focus the image circle on the ground glass. I should mention that my 90mm is mounted on a 1cm recessed lens board; going deeper makes the controls very difficult to operate on the 4x4 board. I have the nikkor W 150mm which covers up to a 5x7 with an image circle of 210mm. Please let me know if you have other questions. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@anzaeria]

@@tonysantophotography If the two standards are just about touching each other, would that suggest that you're focusing on something far away in the distance? I admit Ive never used a view camera before but I'm very curious about them and how they work.

[@tonysantophotography]

@@anzaeria This is a very good point. The depth of field is much narrower on large format cameras so you would typically focus 1/3 of the way into the scene and since that's closer, you'd be bringing the standards together; that's what I have trouble. If it's a macro shot, the bellows are definitely extended (standards farther apart). Thanks for watching! Tony

[@Anarki2U]

Be sure that your 4x5 lenses can cover the 17cm wide field of the filmholder or use a 5x7 camera. The filmholder sounds to cheap if you cannot easily get the darkslide in again. All in all a 5x7 camera and a proper filmholder for 6x17 will be much better ! www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/camera-support-systems/triopod-products/triopod-base-units/triobalanceq68-tripod-base-single.html

[@Cactaceae33]

Is it possible to mount a 5x7 lens onto a 4x5 body? And if so then surely that would be a smart way of getting a large enough image circle for a 6x17 back. I'm interested in buying a 4x5 cam but I would prefer to have the option of a 6x17 as well as a 6x12 back...

[@tonysantophotography]

Thank you for dropping by! I appreciate you taking the time to join in our discussion. Tony

[@tonysantophotography]

@@Cactaceae33 Yes, it is possible to use lenses with bigger image circles (e.g., 5x7 lens on a 4x5). Thanks for watching! Tony

[@Cactaceae33]

@@tonysantophotography Good to know, thank you.

[@andreasluebbert4698]

Hi Tony m I have just purchased a Shenhao Tz45 III. My dealer told me that a rollfilm adapter with 17mm in width will not match because of the 4x5 size. Can you confirm this statement? Many thanks in advance. Best wishes from Germany. Andreas

[@tonysantophotography]

Andreas, That's a good question. I took a look at a picture of a 4x5 ShenHao and I believe you can use a roll film holder. The film back has sliders for attaching adapters. I would see if you can remove the ground glass part with the spring back. Check out these pics as a reference www.shen-hao.com/PRODUCTSabout.aspx?i=952&id=n3. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@stevek8829]

@@tonysantophotography If the 17 roll film adapter is set back from the ground glass to allow for t he extra 5 cm, how could you focus. As you focus on the ground glass, something further back would seem to be a problem. The 5 inch long dimension of the ground glass being only 5 cm.

[@tonysantophotography]

@@stevek8829 Steve, there is a separate ground glass that matches the film plane of the roll film holder. It works perfect! Thanks for watching, Tony

[@eksund1900]

Great idea! I really like it. But can a 4x5 camera expose the full 17 cm of the film? I mean, 5" is only 12,7 cm.

[@tonysantophotography]

+eksund1900 In my experience yes. In fact, with the 90mm lens you get a little bit more than 17cm. Thanks, Tony

[@eksund1900]

+Tony Santo Photography, LLC Thank You for the reply. I´m gonna order one.

[@tallaganda83]

+Tony Santo Photography, LLC I just saved myself a question by reading the comments, excellent video.

[@tonysantophotography]

+tallaganda83 Thank you!

[@KaNon01]

5 x7= ???

[@KK-ps8om]

Hello Tony, nice video! A question; How do you set the picture sharp when the 6x17 Roll Film Holder is for it? Greetings from Germany Kevin

[@tonysantophotography]

Hi Kevin! Great question. The focus is achieved by using the knobs that control the front or rear standards. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@pepeg.luthier566]

What is your doctorate in?

[@tonysantophotography]

Exercise Science

[@MrAlcmj]

im sure im not first but, steve-o? haha

[@tonysantophotography]

Mac, You'd be the first! Thanks! Tony

[@TheEndSquared]

Use a Center filter

[@tonysantophotography]

Yes, that would be helpful but those filters are outside my current budget. If you know anyone willing to donate one to my channel I'd be much obliged! Thanks, Tony

[@essam939]

I lost my camera 25 y ago I love old school

[@tonysantophotography]

Sorry to hear that. It is never too late to pick up another! Thanks for watching! Tony

[@jacovanlith5082]

Tony, mind your roll film its is unrolling collecting light exp no. 1, 2, 3, will be exposed film get fogged ......

[@eccentricsmithy2746]

Just shoot 4x5 and crop to 6x17 after scanning and have higher resolution then just shooting 120 rolls. Leaving the dark slide in like that will create light leaks. When the dark slide is fully butted closed it seals the door area, when you leave it partially in the film holder the door doesn't shut and you can get light leaks from around the dark slide door. You are giving bad advice.

[@tonysantophotography]

I have not had the same experience as you have described. Thanks for watching! Tony

[@FirstFotoMate]

Дурачек. Засветил пленку. Не надо крутить до стрелок, слева метки говорят о том, что плнека началась, первые сантиметров 5 пленки он засветил.

[@jaker2542]

lol no thanks it costs twice as much as the 4x5 itself

[@tonysantophotography]

Thanks for watching! Tony

[@Thomas-es5nn]

But why? You are just cropping the top and bottom of a 4x5 image. YOU ARE GETTING THE EXACT SAME ANGEL OF VIEW as you would if you just shoot the same scene with the same lens on a sheet of 4x5 film and crop the top and bottom of the resulting image in printing. That is to say, you are NOT getting a wider, more panoramic, view than you would have without using the adapter. You are buying extra equipment without any added advantage. Additionally, you are also adding the extra procedures of installing the adapter, again, without gaining any advantage. Want a wider shot? Put a wider lens on.

[@tonysantophotography]

Thomas 67245 Thomas, I do appreciate what you are saying, however, the pano back is wider than 5 inches and is not a mere crop of the film. The holder uses 120 film and gives an image that is 6x17 cm in size. The surface area is similar to that of a 4x5 piece of film. Thanks for stopping by and watching. Tony

[@Thomas-es5nn]

Tony, I do understand than the pano back is slightly longer than 5" in width and, depending on the lens used, the 17 cm length of the 6x17 film area may be covered within the image circle. HOWEVER, using the same lens, the ANGEL OF VIEW does NOT change whether you expose the scene on to the 4x5 film or on to the 6x17 film. THAT IS THE POINT YOU KEEP MISSING. You are NOT getting a wider view by using the adapter. What you are getting is a slightly longer COVERAGE on the width, but substantial smaller COVERAGE on the height. That is to say, you are NOT getting a more "panoramic" view. Instead, essentially, you are merely getting the scene in a different aspect ratio. (And, unlike what you are insisting here, 6 cm x 17 cm which is about 16 sq. in, is definitely not "similar to that of a 4x5 piece of film" which is 20 sq. in.) Another way to think about it is to think about those "blackout" plates you mention in the video. By placing different sizes of blackout plates in the adapter, you get images in different aspect ratio: 6x12, 6x14 and 6x17. Now, do these "blackout" plates magically give you wider angle of view going from 6x12 to 6x14 to 6x17? Of course not. They just give you different COVERAGE of the same scene with the same angle of view. They simply crop the image differently. In other words, the adapter doesn't magically produce a wider shot, instead, it merely produces a image in a wider FORMAT (i.e., ASPECT RATIO). You can accomplish the same effect by shooting the 4x5 film normally without the adapter and crop the image to the same aspect ratio in printing. It's a waste of money, IMO. The only advantage of the adapter is that you actually see the composition in the pano aspect ratio instead of having to visualize it in your head when you shoot 4x5 film. But that too can be accomplished simply by marking or masking the ground glass on your 4x5 back - no need to spend a few hundred dollars on this gadget.

[@DinosawrsAreAwesome]

4x5 is 127mm wide, while 6x17 is 170mm wide. You can not crop a 4x5 image wider than you shot it, it is the same principle as a 30mm lens being a wide on a 135 camera and 'normal' on a apsc sensor. Angle of view is dependent on the focal length of the lens and the size of the imaging area, it is not independent of either.

[@tonysantophotography]

Thank you@@DinosawrsAreAwesome ! I appreciate your support and clarification! Tony

[@Thomas-es5nn]

170 mm is of course longer than 127 mm but that isn't the dispute here and wasn't what I said. I am not saying that the adapter mask a 4"x5" area into a 6 cm x 17 cm area. What I said is that the adapter mask the exposure area off to a 6 cm x 17 cm area on to which the film is going to be exposed. HOWEVER, since the angle of view doesn't change, you can archive the same result without the adapter by cropping the 4x5 neagtive in printing.