7 Story Structures that are Overused

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[@Exayevie]

When you label the video "overused" plots and people's counterarguments are "but I saw it in this book!" I feel like they have missed a key aspect of the whole point 😅

[@CL-eg8mb]

Which doesn't say much about their reading comprehension level.....kind of an important skill for an author to possess at a higher level.

[@GaryNac]

"But I saw it in this book!"But we also saw it in this book and this book and this book and this book and that's where the potential problems sort of tends to stem from.

[@PhoenixCrown]

Agreed. Especially considering Bookfox's approach is "here are some generally good rules to follow if you're a new writer." As a new writer myself, I try to follow the "learn the rules before you try to break them" rule =P Thanks for the video!

[@KittRidgeway]

Okay, that last sentence definitely had the tone of a challenge to it, lol. Now I'm tempted to write a story about an ultra sexy and charismatic character who 'wakes up' into a lucid dream about a bar remembering nothing about his daily life other than the fact that he is a best-selling author. He tries to escape but is told he can not leave until he finishes the first draft of his novel. The bar has everything a writer could need, but if he stays there for too long, then he will slip into a coma and never wake up again. Furthermore, the patrons of the bar all have vastly different opinions on what makes for a great story and try to influence his manuscript in various ways. In the end, the author refuses to change, pushing forward with his own unique vision. When he finally goes to exit the bar however he realizes that he is actually an AI ghostwriter within a simulation and that the 'dream' he's been trapped in is actually a Turing Test designed to determine if he has true sapience/genuine creativity.

[@KittRidgeway]

Did I hit all the clichés?

[@m.a.n.e.t.o.p.i.a]

Yes you did, I would totally read this😊

[@justcademon]

Bro really said "If you try to break all of these rules at once, come on, now you're just getting a little too ambitious." in *exactly* the right way to convince everyone watching to attempt to break all the rules at once. Challenge accepted. I will take everything I've already written and turn it into a dream sequence from my amnesiac chinchilla author which only takes place in a bar, and he never changes, as the story ends when he gets too drunk and passes out (this is my self-insert wish fulfillment).

[@ziminmix]

😂👍

[@kencolac2860]

That sounds interesting actually

[@ramonarobot]

This blurb makes me want to check this book out. You can’t just tease us. Now you gotta do it! 😁

[@amethystb12345]

Ok Barney Stinson LMAO 🤣😂

[@max1palm3ri08]

Characters who do not change are good if they are the ones who change their environment. It also helps not to throw everything on the grill and save facets of the character to show them later.

[@WankiTank]

lol why would I make my character an author when I hardly manage to be one myself /sobs

[@Starburst514]

Haha got em! *Creys in corner* got em....

[@Caerulean]

😭

[@ramonarobot]

Lol even fantasy stories can’t escape scenes in bars which fantasy writers love to call taverns

[@dcle944]

My problem with fantasy is brothel. So many fantasies have brothels. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the story.

[@Raycheetah]

@@dcle944 In historical times, a brothel was often just another business also used for sex, like the back of a tavern, or especially a bath house. =^[.]^=

[@sambeckett2428]

Outside the US pubs and taverns are the focal point of community life. It's only natural that scenes happen there, because that's where everyone is.

[@ramonarobot]

@@sambeckett2428 yeah, I tend to agree. Interestingly, though, when I brought this up in a writers’ sprinting livestream session recently, an author looked rather perplexed and said, “Do young people still got to pubs?” Welp, being almost 40, I can’t say I know 😅 Edit: oh, wait, she is an American, so perhaps what you said holds true.

[@yajy4501]

The creative side of me hates anytime someone says not to do something, but the critical side of me sees that they’re often right haha

[@lukedastoli9959]

So you’re telling me my story of the most successful author of all time who is also a super model, being in a bar while struck with amnesia where other patrons try to remind him of who he is by telling him about their favourite book he wrote and how it awakened them sexually only for the author to wake up at the end to discover he was in fact a rabbit, is not a good idea?

[@melodramaticjerbear155]

I'll never understand how so many practicing writers can hear GENERAL ADVICE, and their first instinct is to point out exceptions. If you can't understand basic language, I'm not sure how you hope to be a writer

[@Starburst514]

Same 😅 😂 or if you get so bruised and easily attacked by hearing general advice idk how you can expect to be a writer (or take basic criticism) I love this channel because I get advice I haven't heard before

[@corkydouglas]

It's the same crowd that can't accept constructive criticism, which is also a necessary part of... Well, improving skill in general

[@Dragonsphinx]

Yeah, totally agree. And honestly, this advice is more like, “heads up, if you choose to go down this road, there are a lot more pot holes to worry about.” It’s NOT the same as saying, “you’re forbidden from driving this way ever again.” And my main takeaway from this was: yeah, if you have a strong reason to use one of these (like the example with the author character), then of course it can be done and may even go well. But I, for one, appreciate a good “here be dragons” sign stuck along the writing trail by someone who’s already been down that way and learned the lessons the hard way.

[@FCSchaefer]

Not only are a lot of Stephen King's protagonists authors, but a majority of the one's who are not are creative people in some other way, like the MC in Cell who is a cartoonist.

[@emmagrove6491]

I agree. I was watching the film The Roseary Murders and there was a scene set in a bar. The main character exchanged a few lines of dialogue and no useful information to a cop and he left, and a reporter showed up and THEY exchanged a few lines of dialogue and no new information and left. ...??? Most. Pointless. Scene. Ever.

[@oldguyinstanton]

5:23 "...part of the glory of the form of the novel..." I love that turn of phrase. Memorable. Thank you.

[@Insomniac618]

I'm going to use all of these, in a single short.

[@dawnkravagna3200]

Agree about dreams. I stopped watching a new horror series when it was revealed that the first scene was just a dream. It had fooled me into thinking that was the basis for the plot. Then discovered it wasn’t; felt misled.

[@saturnight.3026]

I believe many of these structures have an easier pass in anime/manga, and they are still usually entertaining and fun to watch, without the need to think too much about it. Oh, a character has an amnesia? Okay. Wish fulfilment? Let's go! Nothing wrong with tropes themselves, familiarity can be a fun way to explore some other/deeper concepts without worrying about structure. But that's also a point, in order to really stand out something has to be done in a different and original way.

[@LeoPerkk]

Characters can be writers if they work as one in terms of personality. However more often than not I see the following: > Character is a writer > Has no creativity, is barely eloquent. Does nothing that is stereotypical for a writer to do > Does not have typical writer views on ANYTHING > Is seen struggling with their writing on their laptop on chapter/episode one. Their writing career is BARELY brought up across the rest of the story. Additionally: > Other character is a scientist > Not smarter than average Or: > Third character is a teacher/doctor/something that works will kids or under pressure > Has zero patience, and cannot deal well with pressure

[@blossom357]

What is a typical writer view?

[@ComedyPlastic]

My thoughts on these story structures: 1. This is a total copout imo. It *can* work in a children's book, for instance, but it defeats the entire point of telling the story in the first place. 2. I don't write bar scenes, but "too much dialogue" is a piece of advice I needed to hear. 3. Character development is so fun. Seeing how your characters evolve or devolve over the course of the story. Also, JAMES BOND MENTIONED. 4. I feel called out 😅. Didn't know it had a name. 5. Cheap surprises bad 6. Oh Lord...this kills works. It's a sign that a writer needs to cook a little bit longer. 7. Agreed. 8. AUTHORS NEVER GET AMNESIA RIGHT. IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS RETROGRADE AMNESIA WITH NO OTHER ILL EFFECTS. IF YOU WAKE UP WITH AMNESIA THAT SEVERE, YOU HAVE A SIGNIFICANT HEAD INJURY AND WILL NEED MONTHS OF RECOVERY. Amnesia after brain damage can happen. Memories of a specific time leading up to the event and right after the event can disappwar, especially if the damage is particularly severe. But having Hallmark movie amnesia is not realistic.

[@absinthespoons]

About amnesia being more common in fiction than hospitals -- not really, actually, but in hospitals it's usually a different kind of amnesia than found in fiction. Not so much the Bourne kind, more like the 50 First Dates kind, where they have a hard time forming new memories.

[@corkydouglas]

I've felt that a lot of author characters in books I've read were a result of the book's author being unwilling to research a different profession, and taking the "write what you know" trope a little too literally

[@dcle944]

How would you research about other professions you don’t know about? There are a lot of unique jobs out there but I feel like the only way to find them is to take notes whenever you hear about them.

[@corkydouglas]

​@@dcle944 My day job is writing software. If I'm writing a novel, I could make my character an engineer pretty easily, or I could interview any of my friends who aren't engineers and use one of their careers, or I could just try going to a meetup to meet people from other walks of life and interview them instead. As a story progresses and I have more questions I can repeat the process, and I can run my character by them to see if there's anything wildly incorrect about them. It's not hard to research other jobs but it does take time, effort, and revisions.

[@dcle944]

@@corkydouglas those are still common jobs. We’re talking about getting away from common things here.

[@corkydouglas]

​@@dcle944The process is the same regardless of profession. I don't understand what else you need to know. If you're looking for something highly specialized then start reading technical books and histories about whatever industry you're after.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Yeah, the best way I have seen the "It was all a dream" done was in a Chinese fantasy drama where the "dream" was actually real past events that had HUGE bearing on the main plot, so it all felt EXTEMELY important. Which was great, cause the dream quite litterally introduced an entirely new cast of characters in an entirely new storyline, so...knowing it mattered to the story I was already invested in is what kept me from shutting it all off in disgust.

[@NuclearSnailStudios]

still loving your channel dude

[@blossom357]

My red flag is when a book is ABOUT books, something like The Shadow of the Wind for example. It seems like it should be interesting, yet inevitably strikes me as too self-important. I'm waiting to find an example to prove me wrong.

[@robertrdbrooks7658]

Bars, supermarkets, diners, laundromat, dinner table, breakfast. But moving and doing things good advice. Let me take a sip of my coffee. Dream and single location. All this was projected from an institution, crazy. Character development, change , and lessons learned on my check list. Thank You. Me in the story? There's an old saying. Talk about yourself and you're the most boring person. Talk about others? And, you're the most fascinating person. Besides. I base my writing on good actors. What would Rodger Moore or Sean Connery do? or One of my friends or the person I just met, imagine their reaction or response. ME? The third person's observing "you". Main character Author? Never thought about it. Nah, I enjoy the laid back observing third person to much. Amnesia? Question? Do you remember the old world? Video games, shopping malls, supermarkets? No? No I don't. Sorry he has the sickness. All they know now is Dungeons and Dragons. Sorry a little head hopping but for our purposes, you get the idea. Thank You for the education!

[@marianavillaca2033]

Every time I read a book where the main character's a write, I ALWAYS think that the author's very lazy lol

[@nyxcole9879]

I think it depends on context. I don't think it's fair that writers can't express the nuances of being a writer...because who else can? Just my two cents 🙂

[@XX-sp3tt]

6:14 This was used in the OPENING of Centaur World, where the Rider and the Horse riding through the war torn landscape, talking about losing their family and only having one companion that they can rely on... and the narrative is from he Horse's POV.

[@patrickcoan3139]

Loving all of this but will add that an unchanging character can be wildly compelling, given that the story reinforced the unchanging aspects of that character.

[@kadesiakares5426]

I appreciate your videos immensely. Thank you for taking the time to compile all this helpful advice. I’ve put a lot of it into practice now. :)

[@Bookfox]

You are so welcome!

[@RachelsDollies]

New subscriber here. Can you make a video about fan fiction, your thoughts, etc.

[@olivianisle705]

Love this, thank you! It's very helpful for everyone to challenge themselves 😄

[@ColonelFredPuntridge]

James Bond changes most in LICENSE TO KILL”

[@racheltheradiant4675]

I can safely say I haven't done any of these yet. Here's hoping I don't start now.😂

[@moshecallen]

The "zero to zero" point us what's known as a flat character arc. You can do it, as fir example the detective in a murder mystery, but then the character whose arc is flat must cause change in other characters. A murder mystery is about the victim and the culprit. The detective is just a viewpoint character. So, I don't disagree with the video per se as to say that specific writing theory addresses this issue. Writers need to study writing craft.

[@OrangeHand]

I actually start the second episode of one of my story outlines with a dream instead of right at the beginning of the story. It was originally going to be in the first, but I think it works better this way.

[@renzmonmeteo]

One example of well written dream plot is LOTM COI

[@writerducky2589]

I was thinking about this game that did the, "it was all a dream," absolutely brilliantly, but then I realized they were actually doing the inverse: the "this is STILL a dream." But yeah, whatever they were doing they're definitely an exception😂

[@SpanishEclectic]

I have to say that Stranger than Fiction is a favorite film of mine. A really inventive twist on the whole thing, and extra cool for me as I know a number of IRS agents, lol.

[@cococolasparks]

My current story starts in a bar. 😂 I'm sticking with it since it culminates into a fight due to the protagonist flirting with someone whose fiance looks almost exactly like the protagonist.

[@richardn3387]

And a bar is a good place to set the scene. Can the bar add to the theme or plot? In my last project, the bar was specifically Greek because I wanted to hint at the conflicts that come with immigration, the contrast of old world immigrants and their children adopting American culture and how "greek" an individual might be. The characters are two supernatural beings masquerading as humans so being "human" is as complex as being "greek".

[@nutherefurlong]

There's the struggle in scale that often makes advice like this go unheard because people as individual writers have to make what they think best fits, while it's harder to notice many people are solving the problem in parallel ways. But I think the advice to read other writers works similarly, where people will begin to recognize patterns and might want to innovate from there, or at least take these well-worn concepts and give them more of a spin, or even reduce the emphasis. Apparently unchanging action heroes can reveal something about them (over a lot of episodes) and that might subvert what the reader thinks about them, or might show more complexity under the surface than a genre used to such protagonists typically doesn't have time for. This risks alienating the audience, I guess some characters are overly reliable because they allow a lot of different people to project themselves into the story. Something I see in some hard SF winds up falling into a related trap, where characters are just there to help sell the writer's ideas, but it depends on what the reader is there for

[@user-ok2zs4eu7k]

I witnessed a friend suffer amnesia and it was nothing like portrayed in fiction.

[@oldguyinstanton]

Breaking all the rules at once? My go-to example of that would be Shea and Wilson's Illuminatus! Trilogy. It's not a dream, it's the plot of a novel written by Hagbard Celine's sapient computer (named First Universal Cybernetic Kinetic Ultramicro-Programmer), who is a character in the novel it wrote.

[@Dre_WritesYT]

I am struggling with the flow of my sentences, could you make a video on how to edit all kinds of books.

[@hermestrismegistus5511]

Dorothy woke up and realized she had been at home all along, and that life is but a dream. See, all four characters were searching for something they already possessed, and it took a wise guru (the Wizard of Oz) to teach them that what they sought was within them all along. "Home is where the heart is," as they say. We're already home; nobody is going anywhere, Boo Boo. Frank Baum, a Theosophist who followed the religion created by Madame HP Blavatsky, incorporated deep metaphors in his work. In the original book, "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz," the Cowardly Lion steps on a porcelain figurine of a church, symbolizing his break from the church. Baum even sent his two sons to secular schools, which was quite radical for the late 1800s Midwest. Back to Madame HP Blavatsky: she studied both Hinduism and Buddhism. According to Vedic philosophy, we are all God; the One, the Absolute, the Truth. Buddhists refer to this concept as 'non-duality' because the Truth is the One, and everything outside of this white light of love, peace, and total bliss is a lie. They call it 'maya', which means 'magic' in Sanskrit, because it is beguiling and bewitching-much like the Wicked Witch of the West. So, Frank Baum's ending, where Dorothy 'wakes up' and finds out she was home all along, serves as a metaphor. Here is the first tenet of Hinduism: "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Thou art God! God was neither created nor can be destroyed. Neither born nor can die. What we are is the One. There is nothing above the One, nothing below." Notice how the Wizard first appears as a guard who shuns them away; the nature of a true guru is to challenge your ego. They will tell you, "You don't want to walk this path; it is too difficult for you and there is no reward." I hope this helps.

[@ColonelFredPuntridge]

Set in a bar: pg Wodehouse’s “Mr Mulliner stories”

[@amethystb12345]

What about zero to villain (slightly) to hero by graduation 🎓? Also what about forced magical amnesia for safety reasons? These are just a couple of the overused tropes with a twist that I was considering for my fanfic but I'm still not sure what I'm doing lol 😂😆 i guess I'll know when i start writing haha

[@MorsCodefood]

Brace yourselves, for when I write these words, you may well suffer an attack of explosive amnesia!

[@luciferfernandez7094]

James Bond: would be interesting to learn how audiences were about Bond getting married and widowed in the same breath

[@marienbad2]

Is the original video on yt as I couldn't see it on your channel? If not, you should put it here so we can see it! Maybe do a bit at the beginning explaining it was posted elsewhere (on the dark side!) first.

[@IlseMulAuthor]

7:43 errr.... I think that can easily be done by a main character who's NOT an author. He/she just pretends to be an author. S/he has stolen the book and has done nothing with it except for publishing it.... Yeah, that doesn't make you an author....

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

Presumably by 'bar', you mean any public institution serving the public like a cafe or restaurant. But if you are going to have people meet, then a community is the place to do so. So, you have four venues: at home, recreational (including sports), closed-off working (e.g., factories), and public service. Bars, cafes, etc. could be either 2 or 4, depending on whether one is a visitor or employee. No. 3 is used little because generally they are very routine environments. Homes are ok if you are doing something more intimate like a romance. So, for meeting strangers and starting a chain of events, either recreational or public service is the venue. Now, if you are talking specifically about bars because people get wild and crazy there, then, yes, there is far too much exaggeration in modern fiction, but that is a problem with creating tension, not venue.

[@juandediosreyes8526]

Regarding point 2, I am writing a short story about unrequited love, since that can happen in any setting, I don't feel the need to make the characters interact with the enviroment that much, so I'm afraid the readers will feel the story happens in a void. Any advice? Thank you!

[@MrNoucfeanor]

You're wrong! /saladcatmeme Interesting video. Thanks!

[@BidwellRunner]

It was all a dream scenes can be a good way to inject a spicy scene into erotica when the plot is forcing a lull in such content. Also gives insight into what the character wants.

[@Starburst514]

I think in some cases the MC being an author can be fun/great, like in The Plot where the MC is a writer but it's the main thing of the plot and is used to pose a moral question that I'm pretty sure has been a thought in every writers mind, and if not is an actual question "would you ever be desperate enough to do this?" And the book is littered with satire poking fun at writers and authors in a way that you can't even be mad at because it's like "well 😅 yeah..." I hugely enjoy stuff like that....BUT there's too few books with author MCs who are like this. Like a majority of them the MC being an author is either just an easy occupation and just explains why the character knows random stuff and has money or time for the plot (which itself is funny) and it doesn't go past that. Like seriously sometimes they main character is an author and spends the book with writers block as an excuse to not write and attend to the plot and after a while I'll go "aren't you on a deadline????"

[@PanHaszaman]

In general generalizations are very general. That's all I have to say. 🙃

[@neilo2323]

I wish books didn’t have dream scenes at all. I get the impression that every goddam book I read contains a description of a dream and I’ve had enough! 😂

[@SL2797]

Regarding structure one: If we show that the character is actually sleeping, and then go on to show what the character is dreaming about... is that ok?

[@Steve_Stowers]

It is if there's a good reason for it. At least that avoids the "It was all a dream!" cliche. Whether it's a good idea is something you'll have to decide. Does it contribute something to the story, that can't be better done a different way? Personally, I don't much like dreams in fiction because my own dreams never have any significance or relevance to my waking life, so using a character's dream to show us, or them, something important feels like an unrealistic gimmick. But that's just me.

[@nyxcole9879]

My character is a freelance editor the author thing is way on the backburner but neither play a huge role because of the cult situation shes in (semi aware). I just wanted something that was more flexible and im tired of Stephen King owning every horror trope =p

[@aix83]

I'm not sure these are structures, they're cliches.

[@cerebrumexcrement]

im the .o1%. i already hate these tropes. 😂

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Totally get your point on Zero to Zero, but there are what I call Flat Arc characters who change the world around them rather than changing themselves. Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is a good example, as is Captain America in most of his movies, and as are most episodic characters like Sherlock Holmes. One of my favorite examples ever is Eun-seom from a Korean drama called Arthdal Chronicles. The world around him puts him through the ringer trying to get him to stop believing that people are worth trusting and have good in them, but he absolutely refuses to budge. Its honestly really good.

[@jeffryglenn7024]

I'm writing about an author who dreams he's a flea and it turns out to be true... whadaya think?

[@MatrixQ]

As so often, anything can work if done well. The deeper issue, I believe, is not so much these tropes in particular, but the fact that people use them without thinking. Why put a scene about people meeting and discussing things into a bar? Because that's where people meet and discuss things. If you only plan on the surface, that's exactly the kind of story you'll get. But you can do so much more, and everything you put into the book consciously and deliberately adds up to an overall feel. The place where they meet says something about these characters. The time of day does as well. They don't have to be "realistic". They have to be evocative. And I think that's true for everything on that list. They're things you write when it's the first thing that comes to mind and you don't stop and give it a second thought.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

The other thing with defaulting to bars as a scene setting, especially in fantasy, is that it keeps you from exploring some other cool location with interesting world building. Unless the bar itself has interesting world building.

[@ghg8701]

I want the character to get blackout drun. "Do not put them in a bar" (He needs to meet someone that the barkeep knows, and then be too drunk to stop a catastrophic result)

[@Exayevie]

If it's not a dialogue scene, it's not what he was talking about

[@ghg8701]

They do, but I think it was done well enough to be the exception

[@corkydouglas]

To be fair there are a lot of ways people get blackout drunk without being in a bar. Parties, clubs, dorm rooms, alone in a living room, flasks, resorts, cruises, weddings, even corporate retreats...