71000 Duke of Gloucester Breaks Shap Record. 3rd Sept. 2005. Re-mastered

[@mr.ashtonmoss6013]

I boarded this train at Preston on 3rd September 2005 and initially had not expected anything special but as we got to grips with the climb I noticed the countryside was passing by rather faster than usual. There were some guys at the opposite table across the aisle from me with a GPS and I could tell from their conversation that something unusual was happening. It was exhilarating and all behind a steam locomotive. I took a couple of photos when we stopped at Appleby one of which I posted on the Six Bells Junction site.

[@Steamclips]

Hello Ashton and thank you for such an interesting comment. I still have very fond memories of this trip and it is unlikely to be surpassed any time soon. It is nice to be contacted by a fellow traveller with equally exciting memories. Kind regards, Alan

[@rogerredding5269]

I loved the comment it's in the bag from the driver? So much confidence in the Dukes ability over shap . for record speed achieved.? 💕 Loved it . thanks for sharing this video 📷.

[@mervynsands3501]

I was on this tour and likewise got epic video footage for prosperity. Just listen to the exhaust beat as she roars up shap fell on the grade to the summit. Look from 4.25>> hear that sound. Truely it was a super day out. One of the best steam tours I've had the privilege to be on. Perhaps a few more of these should have been built, if this one is anything to go by !!! Awesome.👊👍

[@Steamclips]

Hello Mervyn and thank you for your interesting and much appreciated comments. Nice to have been contacted by one of the "privileged few"!. Regards, Alan P.S. I posted the whole tour here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pnKwc3-LZtuYnJI

[@mervynsands3501]

@@Steamclips yes indeed you sure know when you are riding on a piece of record breaking history, enjoy the moment enjoy the scene the atmosphere cos it might not happen again! 👊👍

[@geoffduckworth361]

The most impressive preserved steam locomotive in existence today. It’s true potential having now been demonstrated. Unforgivable that it spends too much time out of action. Looking forward to its return in 2023.

[@Steamclips]

Can't argue with that Geoff! Many thanks for your valued comment. Kind regards, Alan

[@BegudMaximan-zp2tc]

I was on this trip, camcordered it too. We knew at the time it was on target for breaking the record and doesn't it show, .... the frantic exhaust beat, the dark smoke trail, with load 13 in tow, what a performance! What a machine 71000 is when it comes on song, it sounded more like a diesel exhaust at times.

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your interesting comments. I have been contacted over the years by many (lucky) fellow passengers and have therefore posted 70 minutes of the full tour which may bring back even more memories for you. Kind regards, Alan

[@terryashton3541]

This is phenomenal, for a 3 cylinder loco to produce such power hauling a 13 coach train up one part being a 1-75 gradient and and I think if memory serves me right with Caprotti valve gear which the boffins reckon is much more reliable than the old Walschaerts, even back in my day in the 1950s and early 60s a `semi` (Princess Coronation class) and 4 cylinders to boot would struggle pulling such a heavy train up those kind of gradients, I've been over Shap many times and have always noticed the slower speeds especially on heavy trains and with the more powerful locos, this speaks volumes for the class of drivers who run these fantastic machines.

[@BegudMaximan-zp2tc]

Was an amazing day out, came to see the Duke work its 3 cylinder wonders and wasn't disappointed, this performance capped it all 😀👍

[@billrose1125]

Fantastic footage! I wish I'd been aboard! Just the sound of her pounding up that bank is awe inspiring! Magnificent!

[@Steamclips]

Hi Bill and thank you for the kind comments, glad you enjoyed the clip. Best regards, Alan

[@EMuksteam]

Brilliant footage of this record breaking run. Thanks for the journey C&A

[@Steamclips]

Hi C&A: I must admit that working on this old clip brought back great memories. Alan

[@awalkingman83]

A joy to watch. Thank you Steamclips. I last saw it up here north of Manchester, at Heywood i think, on a very cold but bright February day five plus years ago. It was in its all-black livery, shiney in the sun. I saw it leave around 4pm then set off for home feeling that i'd seen something special.

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your kind and most interesting comments. I never saw her in black, she must have looked impressive. Looking forward to seeing her back on the mainline in the not-too-distant future. Best regards, Alan

[@awalkingman83]

A belated correction. I just found the photos i took. The date was 26th February 2011. It wasn't in black livery: was in its standard green, and looked like new. It did a nice doubleheader with 46443 late-afternoon.

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

I think many have forgotten that this run was in competition with one of the A4's and the Duchess. (The date given of 2005 is about 10 years after the record run was actually done !) The BR Driver on the Duke (who was also a member of the 71000 organisation) said before leaving Crewe "Don't worry it's in the bag!" The Duke when really being pressed begins to sound a bit like a diesel, as heard on this old vid. In tests at this time (early 1990's) after a number of technical modifications, the loco with the ex Hawksworth Dynamometer car and load test vehicles in tow reached a staggering 3,298idbhp, soon after its stop and restart test on one of the gradients. A figure not likely to be repeated because the now current custodians of the locomotive are not the engineering team that were the previous owners, and certain silly things have been done to the loco in more recent times !!!!

[@Steamclips]

Really interesting, thanks for that! Because of the inclusion of a N.R. Inspector on the footplate the tour was completed with an "unscheduled" leg from Preston back to Crewe which was supposed to be diesel hauled because of high speed traffic. I can confirm that for much of the way speed was in excess of 90m.p.h. as confirmed by G.P.S. on board and the fact that I could not even get near to an open door window to film! The crew, of course only admitted to a max. of 75. Your revelation of what amounts to an unofficial "race" certainly explains a few things! Regards, Alan

[@defender1006]

That was a staggering achievement and just showed how much the 71000' class was a hugely missed opportunity to advance and bridge the gap from steam into the diesel/electric age of the 1960's/'70's. I was due to have a mainline trip hauled by the 'Duke', but it suffered a 'shunting incident' and was replaced by a 'Black Five'.

[@daystatesniper01]

Finally showing ,after being built to fail against the new diesels ,what she could do ,ie;flattening shap

[@priscillachapkylo934]

That diesel rookie almost clearly knock off scary afarid that stream would crushed into each other.

[@19bluebeaver]

Was there not a backing diesel? Sound track does not lie

[@45156]

My late uncle was a senior official at Crewe when 71000 was shedded there - he did not have a good word to say about the loco (but he loved the Stanier pacifics - particularly the Princesses) and was one of the team who decided that enough was enough and had her condemned. He never lived to see the loco's rebuild and success after the modifications, and I would really like to have seen his reactions to the peformance once the faults were corrected.

[@Steamclips]

Thank you for such an interesting comment, I really appreciate it. Kind regards, Alan

[@TheGeoff2209]

Rebuilt at G. C. R Loughborough took 11 years found to have faulty draughting had many a run on her with Tony wheelhouse and Owen Scotchbrook.. She became a very good loco

[@davidcorbett62]

A brilliant loco and when you think of how she looked at Barry before skilled hands got at her and found out the problems with her.. A tribute must be made to their vision and enthusiasm

[@bugalugs661]

I am sure that someone said had the Coal been better that day..who knows what more could have happened..lovely to see 71000 back..eventually..!

[@rodneycooperLMSCoach]

Wonderful video, just seen it for the first time and what a change to be on board.

[@Steamclips]

Hello Rodney and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated comment. If you like the "onboard" experience, there is the full version of this tour plus two others I have uploaded. Best regards, Alan

[@rogerredding5269]

Wow what a incredible powerful sounding locomotive now her problems have r sorted ,? Wow .

[@user-gu9pv7ck1i]

Role on 2023 when we will hopefully get to enjoy 71000 again. Fingers crossed.

[@Steamclips]

Amen to that! Thank you for your valued comment. Kind regards, Alan

[@davidcrook4166]

A very belated Like just magnificent thank you for sharing!! KR David

[@peterwilliams7647]

David Crook s

[@hurleyfunbags]

Excellent footage of this amazing run. A shame 71000 hasn't had a great time over the last few years but now she has a brighter future.

[@Steamclips]

Hi Chris and thank you for your kind comment and thoughts. Hopefully the gloomsters are now proved to be wrong and we see 71000 on the mainline in the not too distant future. Alan

[@jez215]

Steamclips

[@Lds-2014]

Me and my friend Phil Insley was on this locomotive sat in coach B and I have very fond memories of the pounding i experienced whilst traversing Shap summit.

[@Steamclips]

Great memories I am sure. All of us on board that run were really lucky. I posted the full run which you can access via the description. Best regards, Alan

[@peterg957]

Hi Alan... I used to drive the 43's out of Kings X up the ECML... With 4500 hp under the bonnet ( 2250 hp ) one up front and one up the botty there was plenty of power on tap... Pulling out of the station on notch five with the Paxman Valenta turbo's screaming their little heads off and clouds of exhaust smoke ( sorry Greta Thunberg ) was something to behold with more excitement to enjoy... 125 mph here we come although they would top 148 mph... Now there is food for thought but as I did not fancy tea and biscuits with the Boss well need I say more...

[@Steamclips]

Hi again Peter. Thank you for such interesting reminiscences, it is always a pleasure and a privilege to hear from railwaymen past and present. Best regards, Alan

[@peterg957]

@@Steamclips Absolute pleasure Alan...

[@MrFoxy1951]

3 cylinders and the Caprotti rifle shot exhaust - fabulous............

[@peterudbjorg]

Nice shot! I remember the drive to save The Duke from the torches and get the valve that was removed to a museum, back onto the engine, back in the early 80’s (I once subscribed to "STEAM Magazine"…). 1:75 is not considered such a heavy grade in Norway (although the mainline out of Oslo has a ruling gradient of 1:40 and goods trains stil have pusher engines up to the point where the gradient levels off, at Bryn). The Flåm line has a ruling gradient of 1:20, but that is all electric… Nuff said, keep the good work up, you Brits have an amazing collection of working engines and matching rolling stock!

[@Steamclips]

Hello Ciel and thank you for your kind and very interesting comments. It is true that the climb to Shap has probably become more famous than the 1 in 75 gradient deserves because of the photographic opportunities the open moorland here affords, for example; the preceding climb of Grayrigg, which is less accessible to the photographer, presents a much more challenging climb but is consequently less well known. Lickey Bank (3.2km at 1 in 37.7) is a real challenge! as I recorded here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lambqoCJrdOHrK8 Best regards, Alan

[@coliniancooke8848]

It's not considered a super steep incline in the UK either even on the main line (viz the Lickey Incline and the South Devon Banks). The point is the length and the speed maintained up the incline. This performance is superb in relation to those factors.

[@timspiers6225]

We had a trip behind The Duke which I think must have been the same year as this trip. We had 13 on and had to take water at Oxenholme. The crew managed to get Her up to 50 on Grayrigg but then we trundled down The Lune Gorge going through Teebay at 63. We suspect that they over fired and that at Teebay She had a black fire. We then went over the top at 38, a drop of 25 mph. The following year we had a trip behind The Duchess with 12 on whernwe went through Teebay at 74 and over the top at 42, a drop of 28 mph. An interesting comparison ?

[@MrDave999666]

Brilliant vid can see the work the fireman had done when the fire door shuts [ black smoke ] The oncoming diesel looked CLOSE

[@Steamclips]

Many thanks Dave, glad you enjoyed. The pass looks closer than it was, but still pretty dramatic! Thanks also for the info. about the fire door effects. Best regards, Alan

[@johnadams3730]

Pure power we knew how to build a train it’s a work of art.

[@royfearn4345]

Driver Bill Andrews, and very well driven. But what about the poor bloody fireman? He deserves at least as much recognition: it's not just about stoking at a superhuman rate, he must also manage the boiler level by adjusting the injectors, crack and trim coal forwards, keep the footplate clear and safe. The compleat unsung hero!

[@Steamclips]

Hello Roy and thank you for your comment and well made point about the fireman. In this case there were two firemen plus the footplate inspector who I learned later also joined-in on firing duty, so not quite the heroic single-handed activity you describe but still impressive never-the-less. Kind regards, Alan

[@gnosticbrian3980]

I remember the enormous speed increase when the line was first electrified - more then 100mph going up Shap from a standing start at Oxenholme. I also remember that the early electrics broke down rather often. That black smoke is a sign of over coalng.

[@Steamclips]

Thank you for your interesting comments Brian. The delivery of coal turned out to consist of a large proportion of dust, more suitable for power stations! as the crew told me afterwards, much of which went straight up the chimney on the climb. Regards, Alan

[@Anbregour]

Being a fireman myself, I can empathise with the issue of poor quality coal. The fact that they managed to set a record despite the poor coal shows a truly expert fireman _not_ a sign of over firing.

[@routeman680]

Great footage, and fascinating about the horsepower figures. I know 71000 was built to replace a Pacific on the LMR, but have sometimes wondered whether if it had been allocated to the ER instead, they would have got more out of it in service. As a 3-cylinder loco like the ex-LNER Pacifics, 71000 might have fitted in better. I suspect the ER would have got it fitted with a Kylchap on economy grounds and have overcome the cylinder back pressure problems in the process. Whether they would have noticed the problems with the brick arch is another question. All respect to the trust who have preserved and upgraded this excellent loco.

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your kind and most interesting comments which certainly sound plausible. Best regards, Alan

[@paulcaswell2813]

@@Steamclips The question really is, if (for instance) 71000 had been shedded at 34A, would she have been a Top Link engine? How would the regular drivers have compared The Duke with the resident A4s? Sadly, we'll never know...

[@BackwardFinesse]

On 26th February 1939 Stanier pacific 6234 Duchess of Abercorn hauled a test train of 20 coaches with dynamometer car and recorded 2,511 horsepower, including an ascent of Shap. It would appear that the Duke beat this and now holds the British steam locomotive power record, albeit uncertified.

[@Steamclips]

Hello Peter and thank you for making me aware of this extraordinary achievement in 1939. I must admit that I quoted another source as to the "heaviest load" claim and have therefore removed that from the description. I would have loved to have been a witness to a single loco hauling 20 up Shap and based on the formula that is generally used to calculate d.b.h.p., the average speed of 6234 would have been somewhere in the region of 36 m.p.h., quite a sight! All of the proposed B.R. development items such as improved draughting, valve events & etc. and a few more recent ideas had been fitted to "The Duke" at the overhaul prior to this run, therefore it is no surprise to see records broken in the horsepower department. One might even say that better coal on the day (it was horrendous according to the crew!) might have resulted in even better performance. Best regards, Alan

[@hiyadroogs]

The difficulty for steam, so far as DBHP is concerned, as I understand it, is that it is a product of torque & rpm. Since the torque has a finite limit, including adhesion, - to produce 2511 DBHP at a mere 30 mph (if I recall the magazine info correctly) was perhaps a more impressive power peak even than this one, achieved at over double the rpm. I read the Duke's specifications after modification, & they claimed that the Duke's DBHP peaks between approx 40-75 mph. Below 40, the torque doesn't increase sufficiently against the low rpm to generate the power peak, while above 75 mph, the rise in rpm doesn't counter balance the fall off in torque sufficiently to maintain the power peak. The Duchess seems to excel at high outputs at lower speeds than the Duke, while the Duke's British/Caprotti valve gear seems to excel at getting steam in & out of the cylinder quicker at higher rpm, to produce prodigious outputs at speed. The Duke also has smaller driving wheels, which seem to favour her more efficient valve gear. I read that the Duke was estimated to be able to produce 3000 DBHP for short periods. On one run, the front end was beating both injectors & draining the boiler! So they had to shut the regulator. Which illustrates that the boiler possesses a truly prodigious steaming rate with good coal. Even so, an average DBHP of 2709 is beyond the maximum 2650 of an all out class 5 Deltic, & some 650 DBHP above a class 47/57!! - If 2709 was the average, what was the peak??

[@BackwardFinesse]

Thanks HD for your stimulating comment. Trying to recall my mechanics lectures from over 50 years ago I recall that power in this context is the ability to do work. To take an example: I believe that the GWR standard for an express passenger engine was two tons of drawbar pull at 60 miles per hour (88 feet per second). In Imperial terms power is expressed in horsepower, where one horsepower equals 550 foot-pounds force per second (or 33,000 foot pounds per minute). So the GWR standards requires 4480 pounds at 88 feet per second divided by 550 horsepower, equalling 716.8 horsepower ay 60 miles per hour. I agree with you that the Duchess may have been a better low speed slogger than the Duke (4 cylinders at 16½ by 28 inches against 3 cylinders at 18 by 28 inches). The Duchess has a total piston area of 3,422 square inches, against the Duke’s 3,054 square inches, with piston area over wheel diameter (proportional to pull or torque) at 42 inches against 41 inches (remarkably close though). I think you are quite right in pinpointing the different valve gears as the explanation for the Duke’s apparent greater power potential. In general, poppet valves, as in the Duke’s Caprotti valve gear, do seem better at maintaining steam flow at high revolutions than the Duchess’s slide valves. Even so, having peak power at a lowly 70 miles per hour seems an indication that steam flows could have been improved, even with Caprotti valve gear. The low real-world power of diesels is also a bit surprising. The Deltics had a nominal (gross?) horsepower of 3,300, so a net power output of 2,650 h.p. does seem low. However, it does explain why the A4 pacifics in the “golden summer of steam” could keep time with Deltic schedules.

[@hemerdonbank]

A truly superb run, Alan. Think the fireman must have been busy with the naff coal!. I have to say I have a soft spot for this engine, even though my last run behind her resulted in a 3 hour late arrival in Bristol! Here's to better times again. Keith

[@Steamclips]

Hi Keith: this was the best mainline steam tour I ever took, the weather was fantastic and the performance unbelievable from start to extended finish as 71000 was allowed to complete her repositioning to Crewe instead of the expected diesel haulage. We were slotted in between WCML Pendolino's and achieved a start to stop average of 85 m.p.h. between Preston & Crewe, eight years before the celebrated 90 m.p.h. max runs for Bittern and probably exceeding that speed by some margin! Alan

[@Steamclips]

***** Hello Richard: without going into too much detail, suffice to say that a senior representative of "The Powers That Be" was actually on the footplate and although we should have been diesel hauled for the last leg to fit into a busy WCML schedule, he allowed 71000 to remain at the head of our train from Preston to Crewe for reasons unknown, maybe due to 71000's exceptional performance and/or maybe to save a later repositioning plan? Timings were confirmed on the day by mobile GPS and shown to me on the platform at Crewe. No-one on the footplate would admit to anything over 75m.p.h. of course even though they all had huge grins on their faces! Alan

[@Steamclips]

***** Hi again Richard: I have no idea what maximum we reached, but I can film with my head out of the door window up to the 75mph limit, but only just. As speed increased on this last leg, I couldn't even get near the open window! and was only able to film the arrival into Crewe as speed dropped below 75mph again. Alan

[@Tom-Lahaye]

Impressive! The Duke outruns almost every diesel class on this climb. Only the class 5 diesel classes like the Deltics or a 66 may come close to this, a Deltic in good shape will throw out 2750 drawbar HP, although on a higher speed (80MPH). I had a couple of trips on the ELR, up Broadfield bank (also 1:75), first with a class 40, load 7 and a dead hymek (450 tons), the second run the Duke was pulling this train, including the dead 40 and hymek, and it did it with much less effort and with better acceleration uphill.

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your very interesting comments. Many have said that steam on B.R. was dispensed-with in haste as developement in the form of "The Duke" was just about to show that high horsepower could be achieved without the need of a costly change-over to diesel. In hindsight however, we can see that it would have just delayed the inevitable, and who can blame operators going for motive power with instant start-up and a fraction of the back-up service functions required by steam locos. Hopefully under new ownership and management we will see "The Duke" again. Alan

[@Tom-Lahaye]

Steamclips A changeover was inevitable at the end, but steam loco's like this one could have slowed the pace of dieselisation down 5-10 years and by that time the diesel loco in the UK was mature (good horsepower to weight ratio an reliability) and also there was better understanding of the needs of the railway in the late 1960's. Thus the costly disasters with unreliable, soon outdated and unnecessary classes of diesels would be avoided. (but would have been less fun for the modern traction enthusiast, as I'm involved in the restoration of 2 of these classes, the 15 and the Co-Bo) It's true that the higher innitial costs of a diesel are payed back for by higher availability (in theory at least, remeber the rows of Claytons, Baby Deltics and NBL's stored for months or sometimes years after major failures) and less labour intensive maintenance. But apart from the Deltic it lasted well into the seventies before diesels with the performance of the Duke were built (class 56 and 58), and these were freight locomotives with a relative low top speed.

[@hiyadroogs]

+dieselmupke I forget which technical booklet or rail performance magazine in which I read it, but the highest recorded output at the drawbar for a Deltic actually measured while climbing the Lickey incline from a standing start at Bromsgrove, to 30 mph at the summit, was 2650. Though the rating you gave @ 80 mph sounds feasable for the best example of the class. Whatever, the Duke can definitely match an all out Deltic for peak DBHP power output. In the technical booklet I had, though other class 5 freight diesels can match the Deltic's in rated power from the prime mover (the diesel powerplant) - until the recent introduction of the class 70 diesel freight loco, - the Deltic actually remained the most powerful British main line diesel in terms of DBHP @ 2650. The more modern class 5 freight diesels specialize in standing start tractive effort, which more than doubles the TE of the Deltic, but apparently sacrifices some electrical efficiency in terms of power loss through the alternator & traction motors to achieve this. The highest figure from 3300-3250 hp diesels I saw, was 2550 at the drawbar. This climb was achieved before modifications perfected the Duke's efficiency. I read that peak DBHP, sustainable for up to 5 minutes, is now up to 3000!!

[@merlinlandzend698]

I think the class 52's has that problem as well....a high tractive effort but high losses regarding horsepower. I've read that the highest recorded DBHP for a class 52 was about 1700 which is low for a 2700hp diesel.

[@charliegalloway6741]

was on this run the Duke was amazing it ran all the way with ease awesome

[@Steamclips]

Hi Charlie and thank you for your comment. Always nice to hear from a fellow passenger. Regards, Alan

[@keithmort8008]

CHarlie'' Galloway

[@loco42041]

Was their two fireman on the footplate.

[@Steamclips]

Hello Steve and thank you for your question. There were two firemen plus the footplate inspector who also lent a hand! Kind regards, Alan

[@likoni02]

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing. I wonder how the other class 8Ps would compare with the same load making an all out effort?

[@Steamclips]

Hello and many thanks for your kind and thought provoking comment. I guess we will have to wait for P2 2007 Prince of Wales www.p2steam.com/ before there is anything capable of getting close to that performance. Best regards, Alan

[@elsacane8495]

Richard Harrold x

[@keithmort8008]

likoni02

[@merlinlandzend698]

True, I know the Duchess can probably match this and maybe clan line and blue peter. Not sure about the P2 though as these were built mainly for adhesion purposes and I don't think past tests revealed a massive horsepower capability like the duchess, but maybe a straight long run could prove otherwise.

[@hiyadroogs]

The P2 had larger diameter cylinders than the Pacifics at 20 inches, & a larger boiler. But it really depends upon steaming capacity & valve gear efficiency. As I recall, the cylinders are to be slightly reduced in bore for gauging purposes, but the valve gear is to be British/Caprotti like the Duke. Certainly I think it is more than possible that over 3000 DBHP is on the cards. It will certainly be the most powerful British steam locomotive ever, so far as DBHP is concerned, though not in tractive effort terms, as the LNER Garratt produced 72,000 lbs.

[@HughFromAlice]

A sustained 2,700+ edhp over that length of time is phenomenal for an engine that size. What types of diesel could produce approximately the same output as this...……Hᴜɢʜ…..ツ

[@Steamclips]

Hi Hugh: guess you are looking at a Deltic or something similar. Alan

[@HughFromAlice]

That's really powerful!!! Hugh

[@merlinlandzend698]

Two baby deltics maybe lol

[@188basstrom]

Notice how different it sounds

[@harrymurray2515]

Despite 71000 being the only one of her class to be built, I think her class with preform well (if 5 others were created).

[@020Dutchy]

Nice vid, that was a close call with that freight train showing up like that, no more heads out the window after that one...

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for the nice comment and the accurate assessment of the close pass. When I first posted this clip in 2008 I had many comments about this incident, most very amusing!! Best regards, Alan

[@020Dutchy]

+Steamclips...Hi Alan, was the mike actually ripped off the camera by the passing train?

[@Steamclips]

The passing train caused a huge wind blast which overloaded the external microphone, causing it to shut down via an in-built safety feature and switching the recording back to the internal microphone. Shutting the camera off at the end of this clip re-set the external microphone and I didn't find out until I edited the footage at home that the cut-out had activated. Alan

[@brianeynon5406]

hy

[@benters3509]

The old training film for firemen said you shouldn't have black smoke coming out of the chimney like that all the time. It looks like they are blowing the fire right out of the chimney.

[@Steamclips]

Hi Graham and thank you for your comment. The black smoke certainly does not look good but apparently it was a very poor batch of coal and much discussed at the end of the run, back at Crewe, where the footplate crew and I looked like we had just emerged from a coal mine! Best regards, Alan

[@davidwaddington9414]

O Greta the pollution, love it !

[@warwicktregurtha4198]

Interesting quote of 2,709 dhp. Well beyond that of a class 47 and just about equal to a Deltic's 2,800 hp with the ETH turned off.

[@paulcaswell2813]

Love the exhaust of a poppet-valve engine :-)

[@hiyadroogs]

Ironically, the British Caprotti valve system gives such a clean, clearly defined opening & closing of the exhaust valves, that it makes the Duke sound like a gigantic diesel engine, with a very crisp treble sound to the exhaust rather than the softer bass beat of the usual piston valve type. But it does give such a free passage to the steam in & out of the cylinders, with much lower back pressure than the piston valve type, that it dramatically increases the work rate of the 250 psi boiler pressure. Duke's engineers have asserted that she can produce north of 3,000 DBHP all out, & that is far above that of Britain's most powerful twin engine class 5 Deltic diesel, (2,600 DBHP) let alone the 2,100 DBHP of a class 47/57.

[@paulcaswell2813]

RC gear always sounds good. The Cossart gear on the SNCF 141s sounded good too. I'd have loved to have heard the Lentz gear used on certain LNER locomotives pre-war also...

[@cyclist3969]

@@hiyadroogs How many enthusiasts associate 71000 with Gresley? Drive by 3 cylinders, Caprotti valve gear as Gresley experiments in the 1930s on the Ps for the Aberdeen Road, and Freddie Harrison, one of Gresley's "bright young men" Harrison being a key architect for 71000

[@davidshields7072]

Snappy Caprotti valve gear at its best!

[@paulcaswell2813]

@@cyclist3969 The only Gresley in 71000 were the crossheads...

[@Volcano-Man]

Not to rubbish the run, but a Duchess did Lancaster Castle to Carlisle Citadel - (69 rail miles in 69 minutes). That was brakes off to brakes on. The account is certainly in 'Mainline over Shap,' which is in my loft somewhere.

[@Steamclips]

Hello Gerard and thank you for such an interesting comment. As I am not aware of the run that you refer to I can only suggest that the record for the Duke is for a specific load and for the ascent of Shap only. As far as I am aware, this is still the record for an unaided steam loco hauling 13 coaches. It will be interesting to see what a (modified) P2 can do when it is finally finished! Kind regards, Alan

[@Volcano-Man]

@@Steamclips Hi Alan, Thanks for getting back. I will try and locate the book, copy the bit and let you have it. What makes it incredible is the Duchess would have had to overcome the resistance of the train, pull away, climb Grayrigg, then Shap, the reverse curve at Wreay and slow fir Carlisle. She must have been really doing the 'peddle to the metal' coming down from Shap.

[@sirjohng1]

Coming back to this She sounds sooooo good eh? Despite the coal!

[@Steamclips]

Amen to that! Best wishes, Alan

[@nigelmitchell351]

Sounds like a sulzer on the front?

[@Steamclips]

Hello Nigel and thank you for your comment/question. There is a very good reason why a 3 cylinder steam engine and a 12 cylinder Sulzer diesel engine, as in (say) a class 47, sound the same. Each cylinder on a steam engine produces 2 exhaust beats per rev. giving 6 beats per rev for 3 cylinders. A 4-stroke diesel engine gives one exhaust beat every 2 revs., so for 12 cylinders this also gives 6 beats per rev. and although they are completely different type of engine, your brain picks up on the rhythm. Regards, Alan

[@nigelmitchell351]

@@Steamclips. Hi, yes arn't the Dukes cylinders all at the same angle ? unlike the Gresley locos, so there is almost no syncopation. sounds sweet !

[@mervynsands3501]

Very much so, I was on the train and can confirm it did sound like a sulzer at times!

[@nigelmitchell351]

@@mervynsands3501 Unique sound with almost no discernible syncopation ?

[@sirjohng1]

Pretty decent video quality for them thar days, upscaled nicely! Filthy old coal or were they wetting it?

[@Steamclips]

Hi John: it's amazing what a bit of editing can produce. It was generally accepted after this run that the coal was pretty poor quality. I eventually ended up looking like the footplate crew as I had my head out for most of the tour! Alan

[@bskorupk]

Forgive me If I'm wrong, but didn't LNWR No.790 "Hardwicke" make a faster run time during the race to the north? (obviously with a far lighter train though)

[@Steamclips]

+OLDCONTEMPTABLE Hello and thank you for your most interesting question which has stimulated me to read up on the Race(s) to the North. What a fascinating story and very reminiscent of the Ocean Mails races between the GWR & LSWR down in the South. As far as I can make out, average speeds were documented over fairly long distances (70 miles +) with Hardwicke coming out with the highest average of 68 mph over a section including Shap, however I cannot find data on the climb of Shap alone and would be most interested to hear if you have information on that. As you say: the load was lighter at only 72.5 long tons (which included the tender) and so probably would have consisted of only a couple of small carriages! and shows how ridiculous the situation had become. I wonder what speed "The Duke" pushing out 2,700 h.p. would achieve with that load!! Thank you again for prompting such an interesting read! Best regards, Alan

[@bskorupk]

+Steamclips The most precise timing if could find I read at the LNWR society "Webb Site" that the train went "from Carnforth to Shap in 31.3 minutes (60.6 mph) and then sped down to Carlisle in 24.5 minutes (31.4 miles = 76.9 mph." also when it comes to power output "it has been calculated that on the climb to Shap HARDWICKE must have been developing some 600 indicated horsepower or 0.56 IHP per square foot of heating surface which is an amazingly low figure for a locomotive using saturated steam." Also when the tender is included for the train in question the weight is 3.1 times the weight of the the engine.

[@Steamclips]

+OLDCONTEMPTABLE Hi again and thank you for coming back with more information. My first reaction is if the average from Carnforth to Shap was 60.6 mph, speed would surely have dropped below 60 mph on the climb of Grayrigg and the even steeper climb of Shap but I must get hold of a copy of O.S.Nock's 1958 book and read more as I believe that his coverage is very detailed. Alan P.S. clever name for an LNWR website!!

[@bskorupk]

Steamclips More than welcome! I didn't think of the pun, you can find it at the society homepage www.lnwrs.org.uk/

[@tridentmusic5570]

Judging by the exhaust, there was a very hard working fireman on the footplate too! How about double headed "Scots" on this run?

[@DenysDuk]

+tridentmusic Most likely not a very experienced one either. They are throwing too much coal and/or distributing it unevenly across the firebox before it has time to burn, thus so much black smoke.

[@garryferrington811]

BR could have had a fleet of these if the works hadn't cut corners.

[@billywhizz6965]

Was the engine oil fired?

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your question. As I explain in the description, the locomotive is coal fired. Regards Alan

[@dr.adityaguptadentist1799]

What does "1 in 75" means

[@Steamclips]

Hello and thank you for your question. A gradient expressed as 1 in 75 means a rise of 1 unit vertically for every 75 units horizontally, or 1.333% if expressed as a percentage gradient. The steepest gradients on the U.K. mainline are in the order of 1 in 35 or 2.9% but these are rare. Kind regards, Alan

[@alsmith5604]

You named the driver... but really all had to do was pull the big lever in front of him... and keep her going by adjusting the reverser... the real work in achieving this sort of run is the guy on the shovel... who was he????? :)

[@Steamclips]

Hello Al and thank you for your interesting comments and question. As far as can can recollect, there were at least three firemen on this tour, plus the inspector who sometimes chips-in with a bit of firing as well! and although I am the first to appreciate the hard work needed to feed a big fire and boiler to achieve the amount of constant steam pressure needed for this kind of performance, all that effort is "for nowt" (as they say Up North) if not used wisely by the driver. And none come better recommended than Bill Andrews as far as "the Duke" is concerned, as proved on the day - the firemen would be the first to agree with me I am sure. I hope that you enjoyed the clip showing just a fraction of the hard work put in by the whole team on the footplate that day. Best regards, Alan

[@geoffreyking4515]

@@Steamclips the guy on the dustpan was really good but in B R days there was only one of ud

[@peterkay8073]

nice engine she's been to the East lanc's a few tines always good getting on. Nxt for me the Scotsman in january 😊

[@Steamclips]

Hi Peter: Flying Scotsman + Royal Scot + King Edward 1, 2016 should be quite a year! Regards, Alan

[@peterkay8073]

Not able to do all, but breaking a new camera in, scotsman a good way to start the yr tho 😊

[@sosig1341]

This was the day I was born

[@Steamclips]

..... but of the two of us, only I remember it!!! Many thanks for your comment. Kind regards, Alan

[@sosig1341]

@@Steamclips I was only saying that it was on the day I was born

[@geoffreyking4515]

The Duke is a brilliant loco,stop knocking her ,I know i had many a footplate run on her at g.c.r with Tony wheelhouse R.I.P old flower

[@hiyadroogs]

Christ! 2709 DBHP is beyond the maximum output of a bloody Deltic!!!

[@warwicktregurtha4198]

Er, no it's not.

[@hiyadroogs]

@@warwicktregurtha4198 Drawbar horsepower, NOT engine horsepower. Drawbar is the only relevant figure. I've seen 2650 DBHP quoted for all out Deltic.

[@warwicktregurtha4198]

@@hiyadroogs Erm, you'll note - obviously you didn't - that I printed DHP not EHP.

[@hiyadroogs]

@Warwick Tregurtha The only thing I noticed when reading YOUR message to me, was: 'Er, no it's not' Did you send another comment that has been omitted?

[@hiyadroogs]

@Warwick Tregurtha Just spotted your other comment, Warwick, of which I wasn't notified. Remember that the figure of 2,709 DBHP quoted was an average figure over the entire climb. 75 mph to 53 mph. Given that steam locomotives have an uneven power distribution over their speed range due to increasing crankshaft rpm, & falling torque levels - (as opposed to a diesel prime mover that is allowed to maintain peak power revs at all times) - means that the Duke's peak DBHP would have been around 3,000.

[@MrMoggyman]

Aaaargh....who was firing? Black carbons coming out the stack. Was it for effect? What I know is that my ancestors, top link and veteran steam engine drivers, would have been giving the fireman a hard time!!

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your valued comments which has prompted me to action! This video has received a number of comments criticising the excessive black smoke and I have therefore updated the description in order to explain why. Thanks again and best regards, Alan

[@MrMoggyman]

Thanks for that. Strewth! When going over Shap, especially for a record breaking run, who fills the tender with poor quality coal? Was it brickettes, or just a tender full of slack? Nah, not brickettes....they would just deaden the fire, not make this smoke. I can understand the situation if the fireman is shovelling in shovel fulls of slack, but as fast as he is shovelling that in it would be going through the fire bars or clinkering up. Looking at this footage my old uncle Percy, a top link man on LMS/BR, would probably say that the view is reminiscent of someone learning how to fire an engine. Percy had to take a few guys in hand in his time and show them the way, as had both my other two grandfathers on the LNER/BR. It is no easy feat placing the coal just right to maximise steam raising, and all the classes, and even engines in the same class were different, but poor quality coal does make a firemans job a lot harder, and it does happen from time to time. Some of the rubbish BR used at times was almost unbelievable. One grandfather once noted that an engineman took a piece and stuffed it under the foremans nose, asking what it was fit for, and announcing nothing......it was not fit for firing an engine. But I would not expect this on 71000.

[@cyclist3969]

I believe the driver can assist the fireman in controlling the black smoke out of the exhaust by backing off on the reverser, the loco is lifting part-burnt coal from the grate due to the high effort at the the front end, the blastpipe is overdrawing the coal in the firebox

[@kellyashfordtrains2642]

But you can't hear the steamy working hard. You ought to have been upfront with her. It would have been better that way. I love a steam engine's bark to be right down my ears, there's nothing to beat it.

[@northstar1950]

This loco never performed well when it was first built because those in power didn,t want it to. It was deliberately fitted with the wrong exhaust system. When it was restored the restoration included fitting the correct exhaust and the loco performed how Riddles intended it to.

[@davidatkinson2167]

Not so much that those in power didn't want it to perform, steam was on the way out and bean counters in most industries try to save money. The trouble is the money saved by not pursuing it's shortcomings was spent in costs for extra fuel due to inefficient draughting. She also had the wrong air ratio for the dampers and was a single loco whereby crews didn't really get used to it. It's operating odds were 40:1 against Duchess locos which were familiar to crews. If steam had lasted longer I am sure it would have been sorted. Regarding the chimney ratios there could have been licensing costs if Kylchap had been fitted from the onset. Look at how long it took the LNER to fit their fleet with that chimney type. One A3, four A4s and half a dozen P2s. The rest soldiered on with poor draughting till Thompson and Peppercorn fitted that type to the A2 and A1 Pacific's then it still took a while to convert the rest of the fleet.

[@peterg957]

Nah the speed record up Shap is no faster than 90mph because that is the maximum line speed up the old girl... Pendo's ( class 390 ) a prime example... Mind you your nearly kicking out 8000 hp so its easy peasy for them...

[@Steamclips]

Thank you for your comment Peter although to be fair I did state that it is the record for a single unaided (steam) locomotive with 13 (old and heavy) coaches plus 55 tons of tender on the back! Kind regards, Alan

[@peterg957]

@@Steamclips Oh yes Alan your video's as all of them are top draw. A good 600 tonnes easy with all the passengers on board, its around 15 passengers to the ton. Those Pendo's have a lot to answer for with all their grunt. Times change even when I used to do the 43's out of Kings X up the ECML in the Paxman Valenta Days... Now the Azuma Class with even more power on tap... Blimey...

[@stephenpage-murray7226]

Eats hills as though they don’t exist!

[@Steamclips]

Amen to that Stephen! sorry for the late response. Hope you find time to watch the whole trip, should be 70 mins of fun for you. Kind regards, Alan

[@annajeannettedixon2453]

and you cannot put horse power on a steam locomotive s steam as indefinded power out put is all down to how good the boiler is worked by the fireman and good boiler management little ans often still holds good on any gradient and there should be no black smoke

[@Steamclips]

Hello Anna Jeanette and thank you for your well informed comments and critique (we clearly both have an engineering background!) and whereas you are quite right that in an external combustion engine the "power" is generated in the boiler, for practical reasons this is somewhat "academic". As B.R. explored the pro's and con's of converting to diesel and electric power in the 1950's, they came up with mathematical expressions which fairly accurately compared power output at the wheels of different types of locomotive under load, which they referred to as "Developed Brake Horsepower or DBHP. This took the form: grav load (i.e. static load x 1/gradient) lbs x 1.002 (coefficient of rolling friction for steel wheels on steel track) x speed m.p.h. / 375 for a steam locomotive, and this is what I have used here. Your criticism of the black "smoke" is also well founded but to be fair to the crew they had to deal with a very poor delivery of coal (from Poland!) which consisted mainly of dust (suitable only for power stations) which went straight up the chimney when the regulator was fully opened as here on the climb to Shap, turning the exhaust black. For most of the rest of the day, the exhaust was clean. Regards, Alan

[@nlo114]

@@Steamclips - The other thing to bear in mind, is that when producing that much draw-bar horsepower at a constant rate, the fireman is probably concentrating on 'getting as much of it through the hole as possible'. Getting the coal to burn on the grate before it jumps up and disappears through the tubes is a big task with a 500+ ton train, that demands a very fit fireman/men.

[@Snakeytown]

Haha in yer face ;)

[@MrCrewmike]

Too much black smoke, Not a good steam builder,

[@Steamclips]

Hi and thank you for your comment. You may like to read the description that describes the reason for the black smoke which has been discussed at length in the comments section. Regards, Alan

[@annajeannettedixon2453]

the fireman is over firing this loco and he not got this damper set right way too much black smoke that dose a lot of damage to the tube plate ends in the firebox

[@MrMoggyman]

Not so much over firing as poor firing. The placement of coal and the amount is not allowing the carbons to be burned off in the firebox, leading to poor steaming. This fireman needs to look at the LMS black and white instructional film (on You Tube) about how to fire a steam locomotive. My ancestors, both top link and veteran drivers from the LNWR/LMS/BR and GCR/LNER/BR would have had this fireman by his short and curlies firing like this! In fact, they would have instructed the fireman in how to do his job, and he would be lucky not to be on report for poor firing like this!!

[@TheGeoff2209]

We had the Duke at Loughborough she was rebuilt there, little and often is how you fire her, round the box and a couple in the back corners when all said and done she's just a 3 cylinder brit, but a beaut