Hoi4 - Terrains Traits Explained - River Defense Isn't What You Think

Going through how the terrain trait buffs work on the attack and defense. Part of a series of videos looking at how different unit stats work and interact.
Twitch.tv/71Cloak
0:00 Intro and "normal" modifiers
2:56 River Modifiers and Multiple modifiers
3:56 Forts being even weirder
4:55 Amphibious Invasion Penalty is Stupid

[@MrNicoJac]

I just LOVE the *indignation* in Stealth's voice as he's talking about Paradox math making zero sense 😆👍🏼

[@Bradley_UA]

It's indignation

[@MrNicoJac]

@@Bradley_UA Oh, well spotted, thanks! (teaches me not to write comments while already in bed, haha)

[@PikaPilot]

Thanks for digging up yet another modifier that literally is bugged and does nothing

[@zoroasper9759]

One day Paradox needs to do a general UI clean-up removing fake modifier icons and changing ones that don't work as the icons show

[@CatnamedMittens]

Won't happen, can't sell it as dlc

[@dylanram4653]

is there any mods to fix this that doesnt change anything?

[@KyleJohnson-ny7uu]

Certified paradox moment

[@arya.n.8252]

The math is working paradoxically

[@keepsmiling7645]

I hate that I find this joke funny xD

[@JP-uu3xg]

Another top tier video, you have the most consistently good hoi4 content on youtube by far. I'm curious what you think is the most important thing you would want changed in future DLC/patches? Personally im stoked for the italy focus tree and the air rework, but also wish finland and Belgium got some love and navy had some actual incentives to build (rework).

[@personalaccount8914]

fix the spaghetti code

[@omo7002]

Now that it has been determined that the naval invasion defense tech bonus has some weird math to it, is it the same from the spy bonus? as that is supposed the give naval invasion defense bonuses in the state.

[@RobinMeineke]

Why do we learn that so many stats and modifiers don’t work after the game has been released for so many years? I hope you are in contact with the team so we can rely on the modifiers in the future. Because at this point I can’t be sure if any modifier shown is actually real or if it works as intended.

[@rikai5344]

And thats a big part of why i stopped playing HOI

[@johngalt5166]

@@rikai5344 bah I love hoi, I just stopped playing because I had to go to college and don’t have my PC lol (but I still buy all the dlc), as soon as I get home I’ll get back on, I just hope they fixed everything but then.

[@hammotimee]

Every video of yours I watch puts wrinkles on my brain. Great stuff

[@sudpud]

I *think* the reason it’s based as a factor of 20% is because marines get a +50% against the -70% Malus. It’s only applying to the remaining anti-marine malus.

[@kvlt1349]

I made a post on reddit about naval invasion penalties ages ago. I'll include the relevant parts here. First, the modifier "naval invasion defense" decreases your amphibious assault penalty. You can get up to 165% naval invasion defense. 15% from the second transport tech, 50% from the third, and a conditional modifier of up to 100% on states in which you have a spy network built up. The modifier is linear with the spy network. This modifier is then divided by 3.5 in order to determine the actual reduction to your amphibious assault penalty. In the best case, with 165%, your amphibious assault penalty will be reduced to 1 - 1.65/3.5 = 53% of what it otherwise displays that it should have been. Second, you always have a multiplicative 101% penalty to amphibious assaults for no reason. Because f you, that's why. Third, many people forget that revealing broken cyphers provides a flat +15% additive modifier to amphibious assaults. This stacks with the +25% from engineers, the average modifiers from the battalions in the division, and the base -70%. All told, the equation for the naval invasion penalty should be (1 + ((-0.7 + avg bn penalty + engineers? + cyphers?) (1 - invasion defense / 3.5) (1.01)) capped between -0.99 and 0) When you navally invade a province, while your divisions are moving from the sea tile to the land tile, they are in an state of "invasion progress" to represent the troops disembarking from their invasion craft and forming up on the beaches. It ends when they have made enough movement progress to reach the land tile, ie when the movement arrow if fully filled in. Obviously they can't actually move into said tile because they're in combat with the enemy divisions standing there. The modifier begins at -80% attack and +50% breakthrough and decays linearly to zero when "all troops have landed."

[@alderontyran]

Don't Marine/Amtrac/Amtank battalions effect the math as well?

[@kvlt1349]

@@alderontyran they are included in the average battalion penalty. they are not separately added the way engineers are.

[@TheCetarius]

The math is overly complicated. Why not just make the modifier a number like the others?

[@kvlt1349]

@@TheCetarius because it's not. it is the average of all the amphibious modifiers of all the battalions in the division. I literally can't make it just a number because the amount of amphibious attack bonus one amtank provides is different than the bonus the second provides, and the bonus is also different in a 16 width division than it is in a 44 width. the fact of the matter is, you just have to look at the terrain modifiers at the bottom of the division template.

[@alderontyran]

@@kvlt1349 "Paradox Math" I see 😅

[@marthvader14]

I hope at least one dev watches your videos and tells the others to fix these bugs

[@CM-db5cg]

The worst thing is this is so easily fixed, just add a defending on fort/river battle modifer and leave it empty, so these modifers have something to modify.

[@neilangelomolleda7283]

I think the river defense is applied as breakthrough? Isn't that the logic that PDX uses? Defense (defending) = Breakthrough (attacking)

[@CM-db5cg]

@@neilangelomolleda7283 ok but, you don't get any breakthrough ON THE FUCKING DEFENCE. So whatever spagetti code their using it's not being applied. Edit: on second read I understand that you're referring to the attacking division. For one, that's just blatantly not the case, you don't get extra breakthrough, and two even if it was the case it'd be incongruent with the rest of the UI design because all of the other modifiers that apply do apply on the defence and the defence only.

[@gonshi9]

Wow the inconsistency of hoi4 key words is insane. Some 'defense' ("+_% defense") modifiers apply to the defense stat, others to both defense and breaktrough, and now these do apply to all (combat) stats while on defense?? Just wow

[@nicohms7829]

Estoy escuchando a alguien tratándome de explicar algo que ni los desarrolladores lograron entender ... Gracias por la info y el esfuerzo de enseñarnos.

[@GusanGaming]

I remember doing a Japan game and my Naval invasion had their damamge ticking up for some reason, it was only ticking up by like 1 or 2 an hour with 500 SA that change wouldn't be noticeable with your low stats, maybe naval invasion progress does provide a buff but a tiny buff that your stats are too low to see

[@roebuck554]

In regards to 6:55 , look at the defines AMPHIBIOUS_INVADE_ATTACK_LOW, AMPHIBIOUS_INVADE_ATTACK_HIGH, AMPHIBIOUS_INVADE_DEFEND_LOW and AMPHIBIOUS_INVADE_DEFEND_HIGH in the NNavy namespace. The numbers you're showing don't line up with it (of course) and I'm not sure why the modifiers aren't shown under the attack/defense tooltips but just Paradox things.

[@AssassinAgent]

Paradox math™ is the best kind of math

[@PIRATEOTR]

New cloak video, new broken mechanics to learn about.

[@---ii8hl]

isnt the naval tech affecting only some "base" naval malus and not the unit type malus? like, game would add two maluses, one from unit, one from general malus, but only add bonus to the generic malus? should be in the defines somewhere.

[@digitallee5006]

IT JUST WORKS!

[@Twadfire]

Again, 71Clock going in deep and showing some real data here. A bunch of stuff i'd assumed worked.. just didnt. Did no one in paradox tested this basic stuff? I bet these bugs/forgotten stats were in the game for ages. Gotta love how paradox cant make up their mind about their core vocabulary.. what words mean.. "defense" can mean like 5 completely different things depending on unit/context/whatever. Confusing.

[@GregAtlas]

I think the river modifier somewhat makes sense because the defenders aren't actually in the river but the attackers have to be in the river to cross it. Defenders just shoot from the land on the other side. If they're going to list a modifier, they should probably actually apply that modifier. That would also give more reason to have amphibious tanks/transports since it would be almost impossible without them.

[@tomxipe]

To me this is the best HoI IV youtuber worldwide

[@b00bb0ss6]

OMG how the hell did it take so long for the community to find this out?

[@Sgtbrony]

Could the defense stats that seemingly do nothing on stuff like forts, could it be affecting breakthrough because the game considers it a defense stat?

[@andrewschultz7499]

The fort movement speed and fort defense stuff must be glitches right?

[@nts4058]

damn you know cloak is big now because the spam bots are in here

[@mrkitty1997]

Ok...but if I have just the company added and 2 support equipment per unit, do I still get the same % bonus as fully equipped engineers?

[@71Cloak]

You lose stats based on the percentage of equipment missing. If you have 2 support companies and both need 10 support equipment and you only have 10. Then both support companies will operate at 50% efficiency.

[@DirkusTurkess]

Classic Paradox maths.

[@RunicRhino22]

Do marines have a hidden invasion defence stat which pdx designed that invasion tech around?

[@mr.hugemustache5152]

i have a question. soo in the endgame, if you have too much cas, like 1000, enemy units on the frontline just seem to disappear when they hit last stand. why is that?

[@71Cloak]

Last stand affects the strength damage cas does. You are literally strength deleting those divisions.

[@redadmiral4247]

well those things might confuse some because defense is works both way, breakthrough is breakthrough but defense is both.

[@para31]

does fort and river defense impact breakthrough?

[@lukebeich]

Maybe fort movement is from a fort tile and not to one?

[@shermonruler]

I wonder if the defence would apply if your attacking unit is then getting attacked while still attacking?

[@maverick0614]

The breakthrough stat is being used to defend the attacker against the defender's attacks

[@TheGodkitty]

Ah yes my regulated dose of broken hoi4 mechanics

[@dylanram4653]

are there any mods which fix the ui, not to change anything but just makes stats how it rly is

[@Propaganda99]

can you talk about the defense/breakthough thing? for example +10% defense gives divisions breakthough

[@71Cloak]

I did when I went through all the division stats and what they mean.

[@Propaganda99]

@@71Cloak thank you, i will check it out right now

[@Hello-xb2cd]

Did you check if a defending div on the fort had engineers in them? Because in a test i did, they get a defense bonus while defending with engineer company

[@71Cloak]

Its been a major patch cycle since this video came out. They have partially patched it. Fort defense bonus gives half the benefit most terrain bonuses give. It will increase you defense now but does not increase spft attack or hard attack when defending which the normal terrain traits do.

[@Hello-xb2cd]

@@71Cloak maybe i am stupid here, but ofcourse fort defense doesn't give you soft/hard attack. It gives you defense. Isn't that the same with terrain modifiers? I don't know for sure but i don't think forest defense gives you more soft/hard attack but rather breakthrough/defense

[@71Cloak]

@@Hello-xb2cd if you go back and watch the video, yes all the other terrain traits do give soft/hard attack bonuses in their respective terrain.

[@sld1776]

The game makes it sound that engineers are great for fort defense and it turns out you should add AA, AT, or ART because every other brigade is either irrelevant or doesn't work.

[@oddersisadog]

I was playing hoi4 owb mod and defending southern Mexico and there are like 12 river crossings and now I'm not even sure I want to defend them. I was making individual armies for each crossing and it was confusing as fuck.

[@pyromaniacaloctoling5957]

Does anyone know if paradox has patched this yet?

[@christopherlieske5946]

Did they fix this?

[@Dark_Plum]

3:53 Rivers don't give defensive bonus just attacking malus simply because in one battle some divisions may attack across river and some may attack from other province that doesn't cause river crossing. I guess same thing is with naval invasion.

[@magni5648]

Well, yeah. But then why bother with a river defense bonus that cannot be claimed?

[@madensmith7014]

@@magni5648 Spaghetti code broke. The logic that the devs wanted to happen is there, but compared to other bugs this one is quite hidden in the numbers to get a ticket.

[@kierano8390]

@@magni5648 the defense bonus is claimed for the attackers in breakthrough

[@neilangelomolleda7283]

@@kierano8390 This is actually the most logically sound answer. Props to you

[@kierano8390]

@@neilangelomolleda7283 xD stupid paradox mechanics

[@withche07]

are you reporting these bugs to devs directly through forums?

[@71Cloak]

I've reported some of them.

[@Fck178]

Forts give penalties to the attacker’s! Did you check if the penalty go up with engeniers in the defense?

[@71Cloak]

No really, i had no clue. Of course the penalty doesn't change, the engineers are on the opposite side, it would impact them or noone.

[@thatdudethat7824]

Me: Green number go brrrrr

[@pubcollize]

I guess balance guys forgot to send a memo to the UI guys about some of these modifiers, because in terms of balance all of these modifiers play very well. Maybe it would make sense for engineers to increase defense in forts, but lvl10 forts are already OP so the engi bonus would have to have diminishing returns if any. And a 50% bonus to landing would make landing way way too easy, esp with shore bombardment. Also I wonder how far back this goes, because it *seemed* as if engis give bonus to defense in forts. Not rigorously tested and nothing to back this up. And if it's indeed a UI issue then perhaps the actual outcomes of battles should be measured, if the numbers that are presented are suspected to be false - who says the numbers on the battle progress aren't false as well.

[@71Cloak]

River Defense bonus in particular has never actually given a defensive bonus when defending across a river, so most of these probably haven't ever worked. Its just nobody said anything.

[@pubcollize]

@@71Cloak Sure, but balance-wise River Crossing already gives a decent penalty esp when coupled with Entrenchment. Since the balance of river crossing is reasonable, it's *possible and likely* that they simply nullified that buff without updating the UI about it. One could test it synthetically by giving a defender some defensive traits similar to what River Defense claims to give, and attacking it with various reasonable divisions to see how well they break through the river. If it feels too easy to break rivers without this modifier, then yeah maybe it's a balance bug. But my guess is you'll find that adding an extra buff to river defense will make rivers OP. There are definitely balance issues in the game, I just don't think River and Naval Invasion are of them.

[@Andovn]

@@71Cloak You forgot to mention one thing about forts. The negative modifier from forts becomes less powerful if you attack from multiple directions. You basically remove one fort level per direction you attack from. E.g. the province above strasbourg can be attacked from 5 directions. Attacking from 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 directions will give the modifiers -150%, -135%, -120%, -105% or -90% without enigneers for attacker and -140%, -125%, -110%, -95% or -80% with enigneers for attacker, respectively.

[@johnsmith-wi2cb]

Why is your AA just named all lowercase 'aa'

[@71Cloak]

I renamed them during a different test to make them easier to distinguish.

[@damianr3483]

what are ur pc specs?

[@71Cloak]

Old. I5-8600k 1070ti 32 gb of ram A motherboard 3 tbs of hdd No ssd.

[@Portles]

Omg please deep dive into strat bombers no one know how it works

[@maxxgrumpy]

there is a lot of crazy maths on this game, do they answer someone? or it's just like YT for example, accept or leave?

[@sethyboy0]

Another day another nothing in this game fucking works (or doesn’t work as expected)

[@niku4154]

I always wonder how HOI4 manages to run so horribly but then I realise it does A LOT of useless Math.

[@logangustavson]

SECOND!

[@JP-uu3xg]

Third!

[@legoman2m98]

1st!

[@andthe4010]

So you're saying never build forts because they don't actually give any defensive bonuses?

[@filce1232]

now they actually do give a defensive bonus